3596 réponses à ce sujet

[rossler]

I'm not sure I understand the reasoning behind Destroy as a possible stand in for disagreeing with the Catalyst. Destroying the Geth along with the Reapers sounds like a strange way to disagree with the Catalyst. Why not just ask the Catalyst to personally Destroy the Reapers or order them to leave? That seems a lot simpler than shooting a tube. After all, the Catalyst has already entrusted Shepard with the choice to choose a new "solution" and it willing to be destroyed.

 

You just want an ending without any consequences. 

[Monica21]

Good luck getting him to listen to you. 
 
You don't have hours, because Shepard is on the verge of death when the final decision comes. You have minutes, if that. 
 
I love this guy's analogy regarding Shepard's blood loss at the time:

That has literally nothing to do with anything I posted, because Shepard is alive for as long as the writers want her to be.

[Callidus Thorn]

You just want an ending without any consequences. 

 

More like an ending without a nonsensical dramatic cutscene. Because that's all shooting the tube is. Especially with Shepard walking towards it.

 

And weren't you arguing on the previous page that Shepard is dying anyway? Having him succumb to his injuries after ordering the Catalyst to destroy the Reapers would be no less dramatic(if done properly), would make more sense than walking towards the tube shooting it, and wouldn't be without consequence.

[kal_reegar]

It's not based on the Yo Dawg internet meme. It's literally what the Catalyst is telling you. And I'd wager that that I've spent more time playing the game than you. Because I don't like going outside.

 

The catalyst's axioms are debatable.

But it's logic is not flawed, unless we over-simplified it.

 

his race of synthetics are destroying organics to prevent organics from creating a race of synthetics that will destroy them is not a correct sentence.

 

a. "his race of synthetics"

reapers are not synthetics. They are hybrids, created by harvesting organic races. Their mind, consciousness, "soul", is largely organic. They are not "ordinary" synthetcis: they are something more and something different, a primitive example of synthesis. To them, the "conflict rule" (synthtetics will always try to destroy organics)  doesn't not apply.

 

b. "are destroying organics"

they are not destroying them, they are harvesting them, preserving them in reapers form. But let's say that this is madness and harvest = extinction. They are destroying only 10-15 species every 50.000 years. They are destroying the 0,0000000000000001% of organic species in the galaxy.

 

c.  to prevent organics from creating a race of synthetics that will destroy them ALL.

The last word is the key. The catalyst believe that, in the long term, sooner or later, synthetcis will became so advanced, so powerful, that all organic life (and not only the 0,000000000001% harvested by the reapers) will be at serious (inevitable) risk of extinction.

 

His (debatable: shepard can choose not to believe them) axioms are:

1) Tech singularity is inevitable, if advanced organics are allowed to create more and more advanced synthetics

2) Tech singularity will cause the extinction of all organic life

 

So the catalyst is using a unique, hydrid race to "destroy" an infinitesimal percentage of organic species, in order to prevent them from creating a race of synthetics that will reach tech singularity, and cause a mass extinction.

 

EDI and the geth prove nothing.

Simply, a sexbot and a single synthetic race are collaborating with organics from a couple of years and a couple of months. So what? The catalyst's reasoning perspective is billion of years, billion of species... a momentary cooperation disprove tech singularity? I don't think so.

[themikefest]

Good luck getting him to listen to you.

 I don't care if the thing isn't listening. Just give Shepard the opportunity to ask them.

 

There's a lot of questions I like to ask the thing, but not given the opportunity. Its also one of my pet peeves in the trilogy that Shepard isn't given the opportunity to ask questions.
 

You don't have hours, because Shepard is on the verge of death when the final decision comes. You have minutes, if that.

Really? From the time Shepard gets on the Citadel until he/she regains consciousness, before talking with the thing, a lot of time has passed. For someone on the verge of death, wouldn't Shepard of been dead before facing the catalyst?
 

I love this guy's analogy regarding Shepard's blood loss at the time:

Why?
 

You just want an ending without any consequences.

 For me, there are no consequences when picking destroy

[voteDC]

Even the happy endings of the ending mods wouldn't be without consequence.

There is massive rebuilding work to be done. Disease, starvation, and lawlessness is going to be running wild on planets beyond number. There are going to be fuel shortages because of people having to rely on classic FTL instead of the relays, and the damage done to the H3 facilities.

 

EDI and the geth prove nothing.

Simply, a sexbot and a single synthetic race are collaborating with organics from a couple of years and a couple of months. So what? The catalyst's reasoning perspective is billion of years, billion of species... a momentary cooperation disprove tech singularity? I don't think so.

Actually the Geth prove one thing quite well. The Reapers are willing to bring about the very situation they claim to be there to stop. After all the Geth were not openly hostile to organic races until Sovereign made contact.

Later the Geth would have been wiped out by the quarians if not for the interference of the Reapers.

There was no danger to this cycle until Sovereign manufactured one in its attempt to bring the others of his kind in to start the harvest. I wonder how many cycles there have been when that has happened?

[dorktainian]

did anyone else notice that when on thesia, the AI showed Shepard the three patterns/cycles of extinction?  The three patterns shown in Destroy, Control, or Synthesis?

 

check them out.  i'm sure they're on youtube somewhere.  they do match.

[kal_reegar]

 

Actually the Geth prove one thing quite well. The Reapers are willing to bring about the very situation they claim to be there to stop. After all the Geth were not openly hostile to organic races until Sovereign made contact.

Later the Geth would have been wiped out by the quarians if not for the interference of the Reapers.

There was no danger to this cycle until Sovereign manufactured one in its attempt to bring the others of his kind in to start the harvest. I wonder how many cycles there have been when that has happened?

 

 

Only because you believe that:

a. the geth are very very close to the tech singularity (even in the long term, they cannot evolve much more)

b. the geth are the only dangerous advanced IA in the galaxy

c. the peace between geth and organics will last forever

 

a. b. and c. should be true, in order to disprove the catalyst believes. And why should a. b. and c. be true? They seem to me very, very unlikely and optimystic hypotesis...

 

 

but if you assume that:

 

a. the geth now are still far from the decisive evolutive jump but, sooner or later, they are going to evolve beyond imagination and control (tech singularity)

 

AND/OR

b. even if the geth are destroyed/allied, one day some intelligent and advanced organic race will create another AI, more advanced than the geth (the more advanced the creator are, the more advanced the creation will be) that, sooner or later, is going to evolve beyond imagination and control (tech singularity)

AND/OR

c. the geth (or part of the geth, like heretics) sooner or later will probably turn against organics

 

 

than the catalyst has no reason to consider relevant something like EDI or the geth-quarian peace.

[rossler]

More like an ending without a nonsensical dramatic cutscene. Because that's all shooting the tube is. Especially with Shepard walking towards it.

 

And weren't you arguing on the previous page that Shepard is dying anyway? Having him succumb to his injuries after ordering the Catalyst to destroy the Reapers would be no less dramatic(if done properly), would make more sense than walking towards the tube shooting it, and wouldn't be without consequence.

 

Regardless, you don't want to do it the way the game has laid out. You want something special made just for you. To your exact specifications.

 

Same goes for other people.

 

In the original base game

 

-Game requires you to destroy the Reapers, all synthetic races, as well as the mass relays and advanced technology.

-People here just want to destroy the Reapers. 

 

-Game also gives you the choice to control, or become one with the Reapers.

-People don't like these options. They want something that calls the Reapers back to dark space, or reprograms them to forget their harvesting routine so that the world can live in peace. 

 

That scene with the tube wasn't altered or expanded upon in the Extended Cut, so maybe it is working as intended?

 

 

 

 

The ending is working as intended and according to plan.

[BloodyMares]

b. "are destroying organics"

they are not destroying them, they are harvesting them, preserving them in reapers form. But let's say that this is madness and harvest = extinction. They are destroying only 10-15 species every 50.000 years. They are destroying the 0,0000000000000001% of organic species in the galaxy.

Tell that to Keepers, Collectors (slave species) and Quarians (wrecked by Reaper-controlled Geth) and other species that are simply destroyed without being harvested. I don't know about you, but I don't see a point in shooting down escape shuttles and random civillians just because.

[Vanilka]

Even the "harvested" species are never seen actually harvested in the third game. All you see the Reapers do is STOMP STOMP PEW PEW PEW STOMP Hell, TIM and Lawson do the "harvesting" thing better than them in the last game. I guess the Reapers do their best with what they have...? Poor clumsy sods have no hands or tools or anything, just metal tentacles and lasers. I guess I can't blame them with such lame equipment. 

[kal_reegar]

Tell that to Keepers, Collectors (slave species) and Quarians (extinct) and other species that are simply destroyed without being harvested. I don't know about you, but I don't see a point in shooting down escape shuttles and random civillians just because.

 

but the entire race must be eliminated (killed, indoctrinated, harvested), each single individual. Or it will rise again in less than 50.000 years (very dangerous for the catalyst plan to leave survivors: see prothean)

But, even if the 99,999999% individuals are killed, but the species survive (in some form).

 

I'm not trying to justify the catalyst, I always choose destroy, because I simlply don't give a damm about a possibile future tech singularity and the only thing I want is to destroy the reaper and the catalyst.

But from the catalyst point of view killing the 99,999999% of the 0,0000000000000000000000000001% of all organics is better than losing all organic life. I can "undestand" that.

[voteDC]

Only because you believe that:

a. the geth are very very close to the tech singularity (even in the long term, they cannot evolve much more)

b. the geth are the only dangerous advanced IA in the galaxy

c. the peace between geth and organics will last forever

 

a. b. and c. should be true, in order to disprove the catalyst believes. And why should a. b. and c. be true? They seem to me very, very unlikely and optimystic hypotesis...

Left to their own devices the Geth build a construct where they can all be together. That is all they want. If not for the quarian attack, that's exactly what they would have gotten.

Of course the Geth aren't the only hostile AI, we encounter the gambling one and Overlord of course. Both turn out to be easily handled.

Nothing lasts forever, but to quote a great song writer "give peace a chance".

You don't mention though, and to be honest I didn't expect you to, the point that the Geth (or a portion of them) only turned hostile because of the Reapers. What was there before the time of ME1, that justified starting the Harvest. The Morning War I suppose but as we know the Geth didn't want that conflict.

Edit: Being turned into organic mush isn't destroyed? The only culture and behaviour I see in the Reapers is that of the Leviathans.

[Iakus]

Taking everything it says literally word for word may be part of the problem. 

Sorry but if the being trying to kill everyone in the galaxy is telling me I must remake the galaxy and kill myself in the process, I am going to want a straight answer.

If you don't agree with his statement, you are free to destroy the Reapers. That's how you tell him he's wrong. 

Killing the geth as a way of telling the Reapers I believe organis and synthetics can coexist without Big Brother or forced eugenics is not an answer

[Iakus]

 

Regardless, you don't want to do it the way the game has laid out. You want something special made just for you. To your exact specifications.

 

Same goes for other people.

 

In the original base game

 

-Game requires you to destroy the Reapers, all synthetic races, as well as the mass relays and advanced technology.

-People here just want to destroy the Reapers. 

 

-Game also gives you the choice to control, or become one with the Reapers.

-People don't like these options. They want something that calls the Reapers back to dark space, or reprograms them to forget their harvesting routine so that the world can live in peace. 

 

That scene with the tube wasn't altered or expanded upon in the Extended Cut, so maybe it is working as intended?

 

 

 

 

The ending is working as intended and according to plan.

Terrible plan.  Unless they wanted IT to be a thing

[BloodyMares]

but the entire race must be eliminated (killed, indoctrinated, harvested), each single individual. Or it will rise again in less than 50.000 years (very dangerous for the catalyst plan to leave survivors: see prothean)

But, even if the 99,999999% individuals are killed, but the species survive (in some form).

 

I'm not trying to justify the catalyst, I always choose destroy, because I simlply don't give a damm about a possibile future tech singularity and the only thing I want is to destroy the reaper and the catalyst.

But from the catalyst point of view killing the 99,999999% of the 0,0000000000000000000000000001% of all organics is better than losing all organic life. I can "undestand" that.

You missed the point. What I meant is why harvest only "certain" species while murdering others? And why turn some species into mindless slaves (Collectors, Keepers)? If the Catalyst tells he preserves advanced organic life (each species) by harvesting them then he should harvest ALL species without exceptions. If that is not the case then the Catalyst is spewing nonsense.

[Monica21]

The catalyst's axioms are debatable.
But it's logic is not flawed, unless we over-simplified it.

Because its logic actually is simple, unless you unnecessary overcomplicate it.
 

his race of synthetics are destroying organics to prevent organics from creating a race of synthetics that will destroy them is not a correct sentence.

Oh, it's being overcomplicated.
 

a. "his race of synthetics"
reapers are not synthetics. They are hybrids, created by harvesting organic races. Their mind, consciousness, "soul", is largely organic. They are not "ordinary" synthetcis: they are something more and something different, a primitive example of synthesis. To them, the "conflict rule" (synthtetics will always try to destroy organics)  doesn't not apply.

They're not "ordinary" synthetics so they're not synthetics? They are synthetics. They're actually the Catalyst's definition of synthesis, which is that there's DNA sloshing around inside the metal husks. You can headcanon whatever you want about the organic goo, but nothing in the game tells us what its function is.
 

b. "are destroying organics"
they are not destroying them, they are harvesting them, preserving them in reapers form. But let's say that this is madness and harvest = extinction. They are destroying only 10-15 species every 50.000 years. They are destroying the 0,0000000000000001% of organic species in the galaxy.

That's one way to look at it. It's a stupid way, but harvesting a field of wheat destroys the field. The wheat, as it existed in its form, is no longer there. Farmers then sell the wheat to be processed. You can say that organics are harvested or processed or whatever, but those mental gymnastics to say that the Reapers aren't destroying the human race is probably the dumbest argument by Catalyst apologists around here.
 

c.  to prevent organics from creating a race of synthetics that will destroy them ALL.
The last word is the key. The catalyst believe that, in the long term, sooner or later, synthetcis will became so advanced, so powerful, that all organic life (and not only the 0,000000000001% harvested by the reapers) will be at serious (inevitable) risk of extinction.

The Catalyst said that the created will always rebel against their creators. So why should we believe that the Catalyst meant everyone instead of just their creators?
 

His (debatable: shepard can choose not to believe them) axioms are:
1) Tech singularity is inevitable, if advanced organics are allowed to create more and more advanced synthetics
2) Tech singularity will cause the extinction of all organic life
 
So the catalyst is using a unique, hydrid race to "destroy" an infinitesimal percentage of organic species, in order to prevent them from creating a race of synthetics that will reach tech singularity, and cause a mass extinction.

And that logic is not rational, if only because I have evidence that it's not true. Worried about the Geth turning on everyone in a hundred years? Well, guess what? Not every species gets along. We have enough trouble with everyone of the same species getting along on earth. This is not an original problem.
 

EDI and the geth prove nothing.
Simply, a sexbot and a single synthetic race are collaborating with organics from a couple of years and a couple of months. So what? The catalyst's reasoning perspective is billion of years, billion of species... a momentary cooperation disprove tech singularity? I don't think so.

The Catalyst's reasoning is based on a conclusion it reached, possibly billions of years ago, back when the Leviathans created it. It doesn't know anything but the harvest and its own cycle. The Catalyst doesn't know what's going to happen in Shepard's cycle because it hasn't happened yet. The Protheans were winning the Metacon War. No cycle has been given the chance to succeed, solely because the Catalyst saw it's own cycle fail. And that is not sound logic, and you've overcomplicated it.

[Vanilka]

Of course the Geth aren't the only hostile AI, we encounter the gambling one and Overlord of course. Both turn out to be easily handled.

 

I think in all the cases of synthetic aggression it is interesting to look deeper into what made them attack.

 

The gambling AI likely decides to self-destruct on its own accord because it cannot escape destruction either way. It was perfectly happy to just do its thing in peace and while hurting no one before it was discovered. But AIs are illegal in the Council space, which means that should such an AI be reported to authorities, what would be likely to happen? My bet is that it would be destroyed. I highly doubt that somebody would go and give it the freedom it wanted or any freedom at all. AIs do not posses any legal rights in the Council space. They're mostly recognised as danger. So choosing between being destroyed and destroying itself, I suppose the choice was clear. It was clear for this particular AI anyway. And, as you correctly pointed out, it was easy enough to get rid of. Even if it wasn't, it wouldn't do that much damage anyway.

 

Overlord. Now that one's interesting. I think it's important that the "thing" wreaking all that havoc is not so much an AI as it is a very organic boy, terrified out of his wits and connected to an absolutely horrifying device in a totally gruesome way. What does he do in the end? He guides Shepard, somebody who's not a bloody Cerberus, to him, shows her everything that the bastards did to him, and gives her a chance to help him. It even shows that David, without being connected to any devices at all, was able to communicate with the geth and get positive responses. Yet again, the problem gets taken care of.

 

For three games we're shown things like this and then we're supposed to believe some glowing brat that appears in the last ten minutes that claims some bullshit about inevitability. I'll take what 99.9% of the franchise shows me over "It's true because I say so!" argument made at the very last minute.

[kal_reegar]

You missed the point. What I meant is why harvest only "certain" species while murdering others? And why turn some species into mindless slaves (Collectors, Keepers)? If the Catalyst tells he preserves advanced organic life (each species) by harvesting them then he should harvest ALL species without exceptions. If that is not the case then the Catalyst is spewing nonsense.

 

Acceptable losses.

Total extinction of 15-20 races every 50.000 years is better than total extinction of all organic life.

 

 

They're not "ordinary" synthetics so they're not synthetics? They are synthetics. They're actually the Catalyst's definition of synthesis, which is that there's DNA sloshing around inside the metal husks. You can headcanon whatever you want about the organic goo, but nothing in the game tells us what its function is.

 

No they are not. They are both synthetic and organic.

 

from wikia: The Reapers are a highly-advanced machine race of synthetic-organic starships

 

A Reaper is essentially "billions of organic minds, uploaded and conjoined within immortal machine bodies" (Legion in ME2)

 

 

 

 

The Catalyst said that the created will always rebel against their creators. So why should we believe that the Catalyst meant everyone instead of just their creators?

 

He SAID that "Without us to stop it, synthetics would destroy ALL  organics." Plain and simple.

Advanced organic create synthetics -> synthetics  rebel against creators -> synhtetics destroy all organics

 

How do you stop this?

[BloodyMares]

Acceptable losses.

Total extinction of 15-20 races every 50.000 years is better than total extinction of all organic life.

I don't get where did you find info about all organic life? The Catalyst only tells that synthetics would rebel against their creators, not all organic life.

[Monica21]

I don't get where did you find info about all organic life? The Catalyst only tells that synthetics would rebel against their creators, not all organic life.

I mean, I'd be fine if the Reapers decided to "harvest" poison ivy, but I don't see poison ivy evolving into a credible threat for at least another million years or so.

[Monica21]

No they are not. They are both synthetic and organic.
 
from wikia: The Reapers are a highly-advanced machine race of synthetic-organic starships
 
A Reaper is essentially "billions of organic minds, uploaded and conjoined within immortal machine bodies" (Legion in ME2)

So why is Synthesis an option if the Reapers are already Synthetics? From the Catalyst's perspective, what purpose does Synthesis actually serve?
 

He SAID that "Without us to stop it, synthetics would destroy ALL  organics." Plain and simple.
Advanced organic create synthetics -> synthetics  rebel against creators -> synhtetics destroy all organics

And he says this with no evidence except for a cycle that was possibly billions of years ago. Not to mention that I would like the opportunity to self-determine, thank you very much. If we're going to kill ourselves, I'd like it to be because of decisions we made, not because an elderly machine race decided what's good for us.
 

How do you stop this?

You stop believing everything the Catalyst tells you, if only because you have no reason to believe everything the Catalyst tells you.

[rossler]

Terrible plan.  Unless they wanted IT to be a thing

 

It's just not what you want from the ending. To prove to the kid that synthetics and organics can coexist, so he'll change his mind and only destroy the Reapers. 

 

People have been fixated about this for years. 

 

None of these games have or will ever give you the freedom to dictate the outcome on your own terms. It will always been a pick and choose from a list of predefined options that Bioware has laid out for you. 

[Iakus]

 

None of these games have or will ever give you the freedom to dictate the outcome on your own terms. It will always been a pick and choose from a list of predefined options that Bioware has laid out for you. 

And Bioware came up with a terrible list.

[BloodyMares]

None of these games have or will ever give you the freedom to dictate the outcome on your own terms. It will always been a pick and choose from a list of predefined options that Bioware has laid out for you. 

You're right. But we don't have to like it.