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[AlanC9]

premises/axioms are arbitrary by definition (see Godel etc).
You can believe that the catalyst premises/axioms are truth, or you can refuse them. They are something you can disagree with, doubt, debate, refuse... but call them irrational? Circular logic? I don't see why.

Well, you can say "irrational" when your goal is to model reality and your axioms aren't doing it. The problem here is that the Catalyst isn't giving us any testable predictions; it's prevented the sufficiently advanced AIs from ever coming into existence, so we can't examine their behavior.

There's something of an Underpants Gnomes issue with the theory; even granting that synthetics will someday vastly surpass organics in capability, it's not precisely clear why they'd inevitably have any conflict with, or even interest in, organics. There's been plenty of SF with an organic-synthetic conflict, but there's usually a particular reason for the conflict. in Pohl's Heechee novels -- blatantly ripped off for ME, even down to the FTL drives -- the Assassins have a project to reshape the physical structure of the universe to the liking of AIs, and don't want organics developing to the point where they interfere with it. Charles Stross' Vile Offspring see humanity as a sort of infection, but they don't have any particular interest in humans who aren't in the Solar System. I guess Benford's Mechs are fairly close to ME.

[Iakus]

That's true. Destroy blows away everything the Catalyst ever stood for, but it doesn't involve telling him that Shepard's rejecting his ideas. Shepard just does it.

How is murdering every synthetic in the galaxy rejecting the Catalyst's assertion that organics and synthetics cannot coexist, again/

[Shechinah]

Ok, genuine question for some folks here.

Up until what point did most of you start taking issue with the ending for ME3? Did your problems with it begin from the get go, say when the Fleets arrived? Earlier, the beginning of ME2? Or is it just the Catalyst scene?

Cause there are a lot of things I liked about London as a final level, and the set up that our confrontation with TIM and Anderson gave made the Catalyst seem all the out of the blue IMO. I can see why some saw it as a contrived arty move by BioWare for some.

 

It's a bit complicated for me to explain so for the time I'll settle on the shortest answer I can provide and say it was the moment Shepard ascended by the way of elevator so basically, the Catalyst scene.

 

To elaborate further on the short answer, I'd have to go outside of the endings to explain fully because part of the reason the endings did not work for me and why I do not think they worked for the trilogy was because of things that had more or less started with Mass Effect 2. I enjoyed Mass Effect 2 but it had noticeable flaws including in the story department and it created problems for the trilogy, in my opinion.

[Vanilka]

Ok, genuine question for some folks here.

Up until what point did most of you start taking issue with the ending for ME3? Did your problems with it begin from the get go, say when the Fleets arrived? Earlier, the beginning of ME2? Or is it just the Catalyst scene?

Cause there are a lot of things I liked about London as a final level, and the set up that our confrontation with TIM and Anderson gave made the Catalyst seem all the out of the blue IMO. I can see why some saw it as a contrived arty move by BioWare for some.

 

Honestly, I think the ending made me open my eyes, look behind and start seeing what I considered necessary evils for what they were.

 

ME1 ends with Shepard saying she's going to figure out a way to deal with the Reapers. Yet the second game has Shepard and the crew do absolutely nothing to do that. ME2 doesn't move Shepard any closer to solving the issue. She spends most of her time recruiting ground forces and specialists (and that's when we have no idea what's behind the Omega relay, so why we need biotic bubble babes and awesome techs only makes sense in retrospect) and then kissing their boo-boos and making sure they're comfortable, instead of actually dealing with Reaper stuff. Even the Collectors who we're supposed to be fighting appear only during some of the main plot points. That's where I think the writing starts to go downhill.

 

ME3 puts Shepard into a lot of nonsensical situations like Cerberus' Citadel attack. Cerberus gets underfoot more than the Reapers do and they're magically always in the right time and place, they know everything, can be everywhere, have unlimited information and resources. Etc. Etc. And they always get in the way, regardless of what the hell you're doing or whether it makes any sense for them to be there.

 

I find all those and some other things to be considerable aggravations, but I liked the rest enough not to give up on the franchise and keep enjoying it. I felt like the games still had enough redeeming points to be fun. (I still do, even if I do think the writing is very bad sometimes.) When the ending came, though, after the scene with Anderson in particular that felt real and grounded, it was just WTF after WTF since the moment the elevator lifted Shepard all the way until the end.

 

Hell, when Shepard fell unconscious, I initially thought she was dying and, sure, I was sad, but I understood the situation and how there was no way out for her. I thought that maybe it was time for the crew to shine and save the day, with or without her. Or whatever. I was open to ideas. I had just one thing in mind - the Reapers were going to have to be stopped somehow, right? Because that's what all the struggle was for, right? But suddenly getting lifted by a magical elevator to this magical being and this magical microphone device, hearing the lengthy rambling about nonsensical stuff that had nothing to do with the overarching plot of the franchise, which was about stopping the Reapers, rambling that (merely in theory) presented me with a completely new conflict that had never been experienced in the game, and gave me three nonsensical solutions to a problem we'd never had, all that resulting in a magical wave of light that solves every issue by the sheer power of awesome... that was the end of the line. That's what pushed me over it and made me start dismantling the games into little pieces while trying to understand where it all went wrong. I tried to educate myself and understand, I spent a lot of time thinking about and analysing various parts of the writing, and I found out that while the ending might have been the worst piece of writing I had ever experienced while dealing with fiction, it was more of a culmination of persistent issues than an isolated event.

 

Either way, I'd say that while I'd always seen issues of various severity here and there, my breaking point, the point that sucked out all enjoyment from the experience, was from the magical elevator to WTFland onwards.

 

That's my personal experience anyway.

[gothpunkboy89]

 

Hell, when Shepard fell unconscious, I initially thought she was dying and, sure, I was sad, but I understood the situation and how there was no way out for her. I thought that maybe it was time for the crew to shine and save the day, with or without her. Or whatever. I was open to ideas. I had just one thing in mind - the Reapers were going to have to be stopped somehow, right? Because that's what all the struggle was for, right? But suddenly getting lifted by a magical elevator to this magical being and this magical microphone device, hearing the lengthy rambling about nonsensical stuff that had nothing to do with the overarching plot of the franchise, which was about stopping the Reapers, rambling that (merely in theory) presented me with a completely new conflict that had never been experienced in the game, and gave me three nonsensical solutions to a problem we'd never had, all that resulting in a magical wave of light that solves every issue by the sheer power of awesome... that was the end of the line. That's what pushed me over it and made me start dismantling the games into little pieces while trying to understand where it all went wrong. I tried to educate myself and understand, I spent a lot of time thinking about and analysing various parts of the writing, and I found out that while the ending might have been the worst piece of writing I had ever experienced while dealing with fiction, it was more of a culmination of persistent issues than an isolated event.

 

Either way, I'd say that while I'd always seen issues of various severity here and there, my breaking point, the point that sucked out all enjoyment from the experience, was from the magical elevator to WTFland onwards.

 

That's my personal experience anyway.

 

From game 1 it is pretty apparent the Reapers have a higher reason for the cycle. The conflict between organic and synthetic does still exist within the game. The introduction of EDI and giving Geth more reason beyond simply organic = bad must kill doesn't stop this. It just alters it into a more complex equation then originally set up in ME 1.

 

Catalyst dialogue finally unveils the hints that were laid out by the few Reapers we actually talk to.

 

And lets behonest here complaining about the magic wave of light is just silly. How else do you think the Reapers would have been beaten? Some how they turn the Citadel into a giant beam weapon and hope the Reapers are polite enough to line up to be shot?

[Vanilka]

From game 1 it is pretty apparent the Reapers have a higher reason for the cycle. The conflict between organic and synthetic does still exist within the game. The introduction of EDI and giving Geth more reason beyond simply organic = bad must kill doesn't stop this. It just alters it into a more complex equation then originally set up in ME 1.

 

Catalyst dialogue finally unveils the hints that were laid out by the few Reapers we actually talk to.

 

And lets behonest here complaining about the magic wave of light is just silly. How else do you think the Reapers would have been beaten? Some how they turn the Citadel into a giant beam weapon and hope the Reapers are polite enough to line up to be shot?

 

I guess you missed the part where I talked to another person entirely about my personal experience because they asked everybody for opinions.

 

But anyway, I've never said that I expected the Reapers to have no reason at all. I just didn't like that their reason was some bullshit pulled out at the very end of the game.

 

The introduction of EDI and Legion is exactly why the Catalyst's claims are nonsense. Because they are actual, physical proof that cooperation and mutual respect is possible. Thus the synthetics become more complex, making Catalyst's claims only more simplistic and ridiculous. The Catalyst has nothing but words and thus can kiss my ass.

 

If you have no issues with the fact that a person jumping into a beam of light causes a wave of "energy" which magically inserts some sort of hybrid DNA into living beings, other organisms (including plants) and synthetics (because those totally have DNA) in the entire galaxy, thus making them stop fighting one another for no reason at all and live happily ever after, and similar stuff, then I don't know what to tell you. Good for you?

[Shechinah]

The introduction of EDI and Legion is exactly why the Catalyst's claims are nonsense. Because they are actual, physical proof that cooperation and mutual respect is possible. Thus the synthetics become more complex, making Catalyst's claims only more simplistic and ridiculous. The Catalyst has nothing but words and thus can kiss my ass.

 
Heck, the geth deliberately did not pursue the quarian ships when the latter abandoned Rannoch because the former did not seek the genocide of the quarian people and because the geth recnogised that they were no longer a threat to them.   
 
If the option to establish peace between the geth and the quarians is selected then it is revealed that the two are able to coexist with each other and settling Rannoch together. It is even discovered that they are working together in an attemp to boost the immune systems of the quarians so that they might live without their suits. This is done by having some of the geth upload themselves into the enviromental suits and rewriting the functions. That requires a huge amount of trust on the part of the quarians and is an example of what can be and is between the two people.  
 
The Geth rebelled, yes, but in self-defense and when it was no longer necessary to defend themselves, they stopped attacking their creators. 
 
During Priority: Rannoch, the Geth can cause the extinction of their creators, yes, but that occurs because the Migrant Fleet refuses to stop attacking them and as seen if siding with the latter can cause the extinction of the geth. This thereby makes it an act of self-defense on the part of the geth.
 
Self-defense is not an act that is unique to synthetics: it is the response that even non-sentient organic lifeforms have to percieved danger.
 
Note: the Geth attacked foreign ships that came into their territory but that is not a response that is unique to synthetics either as Shepard can learn from Liara, that the Yahg killed a contact team that came to their planet. Incidentally, the Council responded by declaring the space off-limit and not by exterminating the Yahg.

[Shechinah]

Speaking of Geth, I was a bit disappointed that the Geth seemingly stopped having the platforms that were made from flexible material and tended to jump around in combat. I always thought that was such a neat design; http://vignette2.wik...=20091227111648

[BloodyMares]

The introduction of EDI and Legion is exactly why the Catalyst's claims are nonsense. Because they are actual, physical proof that cooperation and mutual respect is possible. Thus the synthetics become more complex, making Catalyst's claims only more simplistic and ridiculous. The Catalyst has nothing but words and thus can kiss my ass.

Eh, don't bother...some people can't examine the game from the narrative point and only examine it within the lore. I would give gothpunkboy credit though, when it comes to judging the game from within lore, he is right quite often, even if it includes a bit of headcanon to accept.

[KrrKs]

Up until what point did most of you start taking issue with the ending for ME3? Did your problems with it begin from the get go, say when the Fleets arrived? Earlier, the beginning of ME2? Or is it just the Catalyst scene?

 

I must admit that I didn't like the London level(s). Grey in grey concrete textures, even more corridored than usual and worst of all: No choices at all. (except for the squadmate bits at the FOB) Pretty much the same reason I dislike the ending of the original Stalker game for.

 

The TIM confrontation was good, apart from the fact he suddenly got dominate as bonus power. AFAIK Dominate isn't even mentioned or possible in the lore, its a gameplay mechanic only. But the scene was good.

And then there it was in reach. The magic terminal to activate the crucible and its 'sleep'-command/destroy signal or whatever. Themeans to end the trilogy with one final ['Ashley or Kaidan'/ 'Council or Fleet'/ 'Rachni or Krogan'/ 'Quarians or Geth'] or similar hard choice. (Or something based on EMS, or on Paragon/Renegade, or...)

 

Instead comes a magic elevator out of nowhere that brings us to a character that pops up out of nowhere. Who presents a new supposed central conflict out of nowhere, and finally presents choices which basically also just pop out of nowhere, go against the previous trilogy, and violate most (of my) Shepards views.

Bonus points for the original "Buy DLC NAOW!oneEleven!1" message that popped up (out of nowhere) afterwards. That thing really took the cake.

 

But it's like a chess software that, after 5 moves, said to you "the black will checkmate you in max 29 moves, unless you sacrifice your the queen right now". Your organic mind can't possibly establish if this is really inevitable or just possible.

Now, this is an example I can work with!

What the catalyst does, is stating that 'black will always win in max. 29 moves' from the start in each new game! (Clean state after every cycle.)

This statement does not hold for chess, with a limited number of possible moves. It doesn't even hold for 4connect (IIRC), with even more limited moves. As soon as one player does not play 'perfectly reasonable', these forecasts fail*. And it is impossible to guarantee something similar in an environment with, for all means and purposes, unlimited variables, players and possible moves as the real (Mass Effect) universe.

 

*At least in any sufficiently complex stateroom. <-I'm not sure if that is the correct terminus in English.

 

BTW: I'm (also) not sure, if there is a misconception by one of us here. Did the Catalyst state that:

1. All synthetics will always end up trying to destroy all organics. Or
2. Some (uncertain) synthetics will eventually/maybe try to destroy all organics.

Or some mixture of these?

I was under the impression that it was the first. In which case it is enough to show one counterexample to one of the points in order to invalidate the premiss.

[BloodyMares]

Speaking of Geth, I was a bit disappointed that the Geth seemingly stopped having the platforms that were made from flexible material and tended to jump around in combat. I always thought that was such a neat design; http://vignette2.wik...=20091227111648

Everybody hated hoppers. That's why they got redesigned. And because biotics became ineffective these frogs would be unbeatable.

[gothpunkboy89]

I guess you missed the part where I talked to another person entirely about my personal experience because they asked everybody for opinions.

 

But anyway, I've never said that I expected the Reapers to have no reason at all. I just didn't like that their reason was some bullshit pulled out at the very end of the game.

 

The introduction of EDI and Legion is exactly why the Catalyst's claims are nonsense. Because they are actual, physical proof that cooperation and mutual respect is possible. Thus the synthetics become more complex, making Catalyst's claims only more simplistic and ridiculous. The Catalyst has nothing but words and thus can kiss my ass.

 

If you have no issues with the fact that a person jumping into a beam of light causes a wave of "energy" which magically inserts some sort of hybrid DNA into living beings, other organisms (including plants) and synthetics (because those totally have DNA) in the entire galaxy, thus making them stop fighting one another for no reason at all and live happily ever after, and similar stuff, then I don't know what to tell you. Good for you?

 

 

But it wasn't pulled out at the very end of the game. Rewatch the videos of all points when you can actually talk to a Reaper. It really isn't bullshit pulled out at the very end of the game.

 

Just because it is possible doesn't negate the statement. It is equally possible that the Catalyst is correct. Geth and EDI are honestly terrible examples to use. Using 1 year of working together when both groups are of equal technological ground isn't really valid reason to claim it is wrong. This line of reason inherently ignores the advantage in development and evolution technology has over organics. Nature takes hundreds of years, technology takes decades. Organic learning takes years of pain staking memorization. Synthetics can simply download and upload relevant data at will.  It takes what average 4 years to become a doctor. An AI could achieve the same level of mastery in 1-2.  The gulf between them would grow greater and greater till the Synthetics were the technological masters.

 

It is actually a rather fitting cycle. Evolution creates man. Man develops and learns to surpass evolution. Man creates machine. Machine develops and learns to surpass man.

 

Element Zero has already shown to have the ability to alter a being genetically. That is the entire basis of biotics that is not a natural effect it is the result of Element Zero contact. On top of that it is rather well hinted that the Relays use a sort of nanomachine to instantly repair any damage it might receive due to the forces of the cosmos. Combination of the two isn't that far fetched.

[Vanilka]

Speaking of Geth, I was a bit disappointed that the Geth seemingly stopped having the platforms that were made from flexible material and tended to jump around in combat. I always thought that was such a neat design; http://vignette2.wik...=20091227111648

 

I've read they dropped the design because it was very difficult to implement, considering their movement patterns (and I'm not sure now whether they ran out of time or just dropped it due to the difficulties). I agree it's a shame, though.

[Shechinah]

Everybody hated hoppers. That's why they got redesigned. And because biotics became ineffective these frogs would be unbeatable.

 

Yeah, I know. I just thought it was a very interesting design of a robotic creature: so unlike the, well, heavy and robotic movement I usually see. I basically found it creative.
 

[kal_reegar]

 

 

The problem here is that the Catalyst isn't giving us any testable predictions; it's prevented the sufficiently advanced AIs from ever coming into existence, so we can't examine their behavior.

 

When the catalyst was created, technology (and, consequently, synthetic life) was far more advanced than in ME3.

The catalyst might simply have noticed that the more advanced the synthetics became (possibly, one, two, ten "step" after the geth), the more they were dangerous for organic life

For example: the more advanced we became, the more we put in danger our ecosystem, greenhouse effect, causing the sixth mass extinction etc. That's a fact.

Some scientist believe that all of this is easily reversible, other believes that mankind is almost doomed.

 

None of them is crazy or irrational. Just different ways to interpret the reality, different parameters, different faith in human intelligence and progress, different predictions.

[BloodyMares]

But it wasn't pulled out at the very end of the game. Rewatch the videos of all points when you can actually talk to a Reaper. It really isn't bullshit pulled out at the very end of the game.

 

Just because it is possible doesn't negate the statement. It is equally possible that the Catalyst is correct. Geth and EDI are honestly terrible examples to use. Using 1 year of working together when both groups are of equal technological ground isn't really valid reason to claim it is wrong. This line of reason inherently ignores the advantage in development and evolution technology has over organics. Nature takes hundreds of years, technology takes decades. Organic learning takes years of pain staking memorization. Synthetics can simply download and upload relevant data at will.  It takes what average 4 years to become a doctor. An AI could achieve the same level of mastery in 1-2.  The gulf between them would grow greater and greater till the Synthetics were the technological masters.

 

It is actually a rather fitting cycle. Evolution creates man. Man develops and learns to surpass evolution. Man creates machine. Machine develops and learns to surpass man.

 

Element Zero has already shown to have the ability to alter a being genetically. That is the entire basis of biotics that is not a natural effect it is the result of Element Zero contact. On top of that it is rather well hinted that the Relays use a sort of nanomachine to instantly repair any damage it might receive due to the forces of the cosmos. Combination of the two isn't that far fetched.

Yes, yes, you are right. From the lore perspective. Now, ask yourself a question: What was the point of Geth and EDI arcs in the narrative? Why show the romance between organic and synthetic, why show the events of Morning War from the Geth perspective, why present an option for peace between Geth and Quarians?

[Prince Enigmatic]

EDI, Legion, and the Geth's narrative arks are proof enough that for me, the Catalyst appearing as the child that Shepard saw die on Earth, was a reflection of how ultimately childlike in outlook the Catalyst was. I think it just saw everything in absolutes, at such fundamental levels. It was arrogant, and just so childlike...

 

Anyway, BloodyMares and Vanilka are right about EDI, Legion and the geth etc proving that the Catalyst's "solution" had not transcended all that time, all those cycles. The solution worked previously, but it didn't hold up in Shepard's cycle. For all we know there may have been cooperation between organics and synthetics in other cycles.

 

But like a child with a gun, the Catalyst just keeps mowing em down. It fails to see that things have changed, the stupid brat.

[Shechinah]

Just because it is possible doesn't negate the statement. It is equally possible that the Catalyst is correct. Geth and EDI are honestly terrible examples to use. Using 1 year of working together when both groups are of equal technological ground isn't really valid reason to claim it is wrong. This line of reason inherently ignores the advantage in development and evolution technology has over organics. Nature takes hundreds of years, technology takes decades. Organic learning takes years of pain staking memorization. Synthetics can simply download and upload relevant data at will.  It takes what average 4 years to become a doctor. An AI could achieve the same level of mastery in 1-2.  The gulf between them would grow greater and greater till the Synthetics were the technological masters.

 

It is actually a rather fitting cycle. Evolution creates man. Man develops and learns to surpass evolution. Man creates machine. Machine develops and learns to surpass man.

 

Element Zero has already shown to have the ability to alter a being genetically. That is the entire basis of biotics that is not a natural effect it is the result of Element Zero contact. On top of that it is rather well hinted that the Relays use a sort of nanomachine to instantly repair any damage it might receive due to the forces of the cosmos. Combination of the two isn't that far fetched.

 

That does not necessarily mean that conflict especially destructive conflict is inevitable.

 

Allow me to elaborate:

 

The geth employs their mastery of technology to benefit the quarian people as seen in the example I used of how the geth and the quarian are collaborating to boost the latter's immune system so that they may be able to adapt to life without their enviromental suits. The Geth being artificial lifeforms and having mastery of technology is beneficial to both people especially the quarian people.

 

Let's take the scenario you propose of an artificial intelligence being able to achieve the mastery of medicine within a shorter time frame than a human. This would not be a bad thing by itself.

 

Example: This difference could be highly beneficial especially in places where there is a shortage of medical personnel that is causing a high decline in health and a high increase in preventable deaths.

 

Example: That the person with the mastey is a robot could also be a benefit: let's say there is a high-risk and infectious epidemic running rampant in an area. A robot would be able to administer medicine without running the risk of becoming infected itself and perhaps also datalog what it learns about the infected and the disease so that the information can be studied.  

 

I think Isaac Asimov's "The Evitable Conflict" is an example of this as far as I can recall: the artificial intelligences are essentially running the show but because they are doing it so well and beneficially to mankind, very few are even aware that this has happened.  
 

[Vanilka]

But it wasn't pulled out at the very end of the game. Rewatch the videos of all points when you can actually talk to a Reaper. It really isn't bullshit pulled out at the very end of the game.

 

Just because it is possible doesn't negate the statement. It is equally possible that the Catalyst is correct. Geth and EDI are honestly terrible examples to use. Using 1 year of working together when both groups are of equal technological ground isn't really valid reason to claim it is wrong. This line of reason inherently ignores the advantage in development and evolution technology has over organics. Nature takes hundreds of years, technology takes decades. Organic learning takes years of pain staking memorization. Synthetics can simply download and upload relevant data at will.  It takes what average 4 years to become a doctor. An AI could achieve the same level of mastery in 1-2.  The gulf between them would grow greater and greater till the Synthetics were the technological masters.

 

It is actually a rather fitting cycle. Evolution creates man. Man develops and learns to surpass evolution. Man creates machine. Machine develops and learns to surpass man.

 

Element Zero has already shown to have the ability to alter a being genetically. That is the entire basis of biotics that is not a natural effect it is the result of Element Zero contact. On top of that it is rather well hinted that the Relays use a sort of nanomachine to instantly repair any damage it might receive due to the forces of the cosmos. Combination of the two isn't that far fetched.

 

I will not because I've seen them enough times in the actual games during my several playthroughs and there's nothing to support the synthetic "threat" as real. The only synthetic threat here are the Reapers themselves. Saying, "No, you're wrong, it actually works," or something along those lines proves nothing, as well. It contains no information.

 

It actually does. If you prove somebody wrong, then they're just wrong. And it's not difficult to poke holes in what the Catalyst says. As I said before, we have 3 games that show that synthetics can be dealt with in all kinds of ways. The Catalyst has just words. I don't give a damn about some very hypothetical future or past that the game never shows. Trying to persuade me with words at the very end of the third game is pointless and pathetic after they spent the entire rest of the franchise portraying synthetics as something that can be dealt with, friendly or not. Might as well claim that the galaxy's gonna get destroyed by krogan or whatever other race or event.

 

There's nothing in the games that proves that simply being advanced means that you want to destroy organics. Maybe in another universe that properly sets this up and presents its AIs this way. Mass Effect, however, does not.

 

Biotics and eezo are established as facts of the setting since the day one and remain more or less consistent and present throughout the franchise. If you ask me, it is ridiculously far-fetched if in mere minutes the entire galaxy gets altered by wave of light/energy/whatever. Even if it were nanomachines, where did all the material come from? Out of thin air? Enough of it to change the entire galaxy? And the procedure is not even noticeable? Nobody freaks out about it? And that makes everybody love one another? Yeah, there's nothing that's going to convince me that Synthesis is anything but bullshit.

 

 

Eh, don't bother...some people can't examine the game from the narrative point and only examine it within the lore. I would give gothpunkboy credit though, when it comes to judging the game from within lore, he is right quite often, even if it includes a bit of headcanon to accept.

 

He quite often does know his lore. However, where does the lore ever state what the Catalyst does about synthetics? Effectively combining lore and narrative is what good writing should be about, no?

[BloodyMares]

EDI, Legion, and the Geth's narrative arks are proof enough that for me, the Catalyst appearing as the child that Shepard saw die on Earth, was a reflection of how ultimately childlike in outlook the Catalyst was. I think it just saw everything in absolutes, at such fundamental levels. It was arrogant, and just so childlike...

 

Anyway, BloodyMares and Vanilka are right about EDI, Legion and the geth etc proving that the Catalyst's "solution" had not transcended all that time, all those cycles. The solution worked previously, but it didn't hold up in Shepard's cycle. For all we know there may have been cooperation between organics and synthetics in other cycles.

 

But like a child with a gun, the Catalyst just keeps mowing em down. It fails to see that things have changed, the stupid brat.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but I think in ME trilogy there was a theme of "New ways versus old ways". In ME1 we saw the remnants of turian-human conflict. In each group there were xenophobic people that wanted to go into the old ways of war and hatred and tried to instigate this conflict (Terra Firma party, Tenth Street Reds, Saren) and there were also those who wanted to leave that all behind and accept the new way of acceptance. I can't say about ME2 because I didn't feel like there was any theme. In ME3 again, old versus new. Quarians versus Geth, the whole Genophage arc was an example of "old vs new", then this overarching Reaper threat (old versus new). Then stating that "Old way was, is, and always will be the only correct way" is very off-putting

[AlanC9]

How is murdering every synthetic in the galaxy rejecting the Catalyst's assertion that organics and synthetics cannot coexist, again/

Besides Destroy wiping out everything the Catalyst thought it was preserving, the means for doing so, and the Catalyst itself, it doesn't solve the problem. In a very few years we'll be right back where we were.

[voteDC]

Note: the Geth attacked foreign ships that came into their territory but that is not a response that is unique to synthetics either as Shepard can learn from Liara, that the Yahg killed a contact team that came to their planet. Incidentally, the Council responded by declaring the space off-limit and not by exterminating the Yahg.

I'll be honest I always assumed that it was the Geth following Sovereign who were doing that.

 

Everybody hated hoppers. That's why they got redesigned. And because biotics became ineffective these frogs would be unbeatable.

Plus imagine how easily you'd run out of ammo, sorry thermal clips, trying to take them down. The change to the style of combat killed off the Hoppers, really a shame as I enjoyed them as an enemy.

 

Ok, genuine question for some folks here.

Up until what point did most of you start taking issue with the ending for ME3? Did your problems with it begin from the get go, say when the Fleets arrived? Earlier, the beginning of ME2? Or is it just the Catalyst scene?

Cause there are a lot of things I liked about London as a final level, and the set up that our confrontation with TIM and Anderson gave made the Catalyst seem all the out of the blue IMO. I can see why some saw it as a contrived arty move by BioWare for some.

It's the entire mission on Earth that had me convinced I was going to get something unsatisfying when I got past the beam.

The whole thing just lacked the feeling of finality that I expected, and that we only got to see our assets in play during cut-scenes didn't help either.

However the conversation with the Illusive Man is something I enjoyed in full honesty. But then that damn elevator had to start moving.

It's not even as if I hate the Hologram Kid as an idea, I just hated that I couldn't argue back. Why was my Shepard suddenly rendered so passive? Why the hell is she taking the word of the thing that says it created and controls the Reapers on how to stop them?

Right up until the game took control off me for the shooting the tube scene I expected something more, a twist, a way to stop the Reapers without having to just blindly follow the suggestions of their creator. I hated that every ending was a win for the Reapers. Just why was so little effort put into making the cinematics for each ending different.

When I first finished Mass Effect 3 my exact thought was "Meh! Is that it?" Oh no it wasn't, as I should now go and buy some DLC to continue the story of The Shepard.

[Shechinah]

I'll be honest I always assumed that it was the Geth following Sovereign who were doing that.

 

I'm going by the Wikipedia since I was too tired to examine the source at the moment. As far as I could tell, it seemed like it was before Sovereign made contact with the Geth but I could be mistaken. 
 

[voteDC]

I'm going by the Wikipedia since I was too tired to examine the source at the moment. As far as I could tell, it seemed like it was before Sovereign made contact with the Geth but I could be mistaken. 
 

Sovereign had been active on and off for a great deal of time, maybe even back to the Rachni Wars "the sour yellow note".

Just my opinion on the situation.

[Shechinah]

Sovereign had been active on and off for a great deal of time, maybe even back to the Rachni Wars "the sour yellow note".

Just my opinion on the situation.

 

According to the Wikipedia, Sovereign contacted the Geth approximitely three centuries after the Morning War and as far as I know, the schism did not occur until then. 

 

While I do not have the timeline, I think the asari had found and started the Citadel long before then but I cannot be certain.