3569 réponses à ce sujet

[voteDC]

According to the Wikipedia, Sovereign contacted the Geth approximately three centuries after the Morning War.
 

 

Then I shall trust it.

[voteDC]

Is it AI or synthetics that will always rebel against their creators?

If it is the latter then why have the Reapers not rebelled against the Catalyst? Sorry I get mixed up on whether they are each Independent or controlled by the Catalyst.

[BloodyMares]

Is it AI or synthetics that will always rebel against their creators?

If it is the latter then why have the Reapers not rebelled against the Catalyst? Sorry I get mixed up on whether they are each Independent or controlled by the Catalyst.

Apparently Reapers are an exception and they are following Catalyst because they want to murder younger species...

[Iakus]

 

Just because it is possible doesn't negate the statement.   

Yes it does.  Because the Catalyst states that coexistence is impossible, that without the Reapers, synthetics would wipe out all organic life.

 

Neither EDI nor the geth have shown any desire to do so.  They are, in fact quite willing to ally with the synthetics that are willing to wipe out entire species of organic life:  the Reapers.

[Iakus]

Sovereign had been active on and off for a great deal of time, maybe even back to the Rachni Wars "the sour yellow note".

Just my opinion on the situation.

Heavily implied, but never confirmed.

[Vanilka]

And correct me if I'm wrong, but I think in ME trilogy there was a theme of "New ways versus old ways". In ME1 we saw the remnants of turian-human conflict. In each group there were xenophobic people that wanted to go into the old ways of war and hatred and tried to instigate this conflict (Terra Firma party, Tenth Street Reds, Saren) and there were also those who wanted to leave that all behind and accept the new way of acceptance. I can't say about ME2 because I didn't feel like there was any theme. In ME3 again, old versus new. Quarians versus Geth, the whole Genophage arc was an example of "old vs new", then this overarching Reaper threat (old versus new). Then stating that "Old way was, is, and always will be the only correct way" is very off-putting

 

One of the themes I really loved was also the unity through and despite diversity theme running throughout the entire franchise. Starting with ME1 where you gather allies from different races and with different cultures and mindsets as you fight for a common cause. ME2 continues with a very diverse crew cooperating to achieve a common goal, as well. Every single crew member understands how important our task is. If you're open enough, you can eventually get even vorcha and batarians on your side in ME3. I had my Mindoir Shep put her bad memories and deeply ingrained grudge aside for greater good as she persuaded Balak to cooperate in an attempt to save last people of his own race and contribute something to the war effort to save the entire Milky Way. Call me romantic, but I find that incredibly satisfying. Maybe that's why the ending themes, particularly Synthesis, feel so offensive to me. Destroy being an offender to an extent, as well. Because it goes and erases all these differences that we've gradually not only worked through, but also come to respect.

[gothpunkboy89]

Eh, don't bother...some people can't examine the game from the narrative point and only examine it within the lore. I would give gothpunkboy credit though, when it comes to judging the game from within lore, he is right quite often, even if it includes a bit of headcanon to accept.

 

Narrative takes place within the lore.

[BloodyMares]

Narrative takes place within the lore.

You don't seem to notice it then. In your arguments you look at details, not the storytelling.

[gothpunkboy89]

Yes it does.  Because the Catalyst states that coexistence is impossible, that without the Reapers, synthetics would wipe out all organic life.

 

Neither EDI nor the geth have shown any desire to do so.  They are, in fact quite willing to ally with the synthetics that are willing to wipe out entire species of organic life:  the Reapers.

 

 

I don't remember any line that says it is impossible. Just that synthetics would rebel against the creator and would eventually wipe out all synthetic life.

 

 

That wiping out could be caused by a great deal many factors.

[gothpunkboy89]

You don't seem to notice it then. In your arguments you look at details, not the storytelling.

 

I look at both actually. Though this would sum up a lot of problems people seem to have with the game. They only pay attention to one side of the equation then wonder why it doesn't seem to add up.

 

Instead of seeing

 

(4/2) + (3*2)= 8

 

They see

 

3*2= 8

 

And complain that it doesn't add up.

[BloodyMares]

I don't remember any line that says it is impossible. Just that synthetics would rebel against the creator and would eventually wipe out all organic life.

"Created will always rebel against their creators".
We have EDI who doesn't rebel against organics. That's enough to prove the Catalyst wrong. Therefore, created could sometimes rebel against their creators.

"Without us to stop it, synthetics would destroy all organics".
There is no "eventually".

[BloodyMares]

I look at both actually.

Well then, tell me why there were EDI's and Legion's arcs in the game? What was the purpose behind it from the narrative point of view if the end game was to sell us the premise that the conflict between synthetics and organics is inevitable?

[Dantriges]

We´ve got as major AIs the geth who spent 300 years in isolation and then help their creators when given the chance, we have EDI as member of our team and we have the Catalyst who wants to save organic life in its own twisted way.  So there is a billion year old AI able to stomp the galaxy who wants to save us all. Well, somehow this whole "synthetics will wipe out organic life" doesn´t hold much water, when the biggest AI doesn´t do it and "uhuh I am special," is a copout when dealing with absolutes.

 

I wouldn´t call what the Reapers and the catalyst do "saving organics," but from their perspective, they don´t genocide anyone and this whole inevitabe roboapocalypse thing is their mantra.

[Abedsbrother]

"Created will always rebel against their creators".
We have EDI who doesn't rebel against organics. That's enough to prove the Catalyst wrong. 

Well, actually, as the Rogue VI on the moon, she did rebel against her creators (the Alliance).

[gothpunkboy89]

"Created will always rebel against their creators".
We have EDI who doesn't rebel against organics. That's enough to prove the Catalyst wrong. Therefore, created could sometimes rebel against their creators.

"Without us to stop it, synthetics would destroy all organics".
There is no "eventually".

 

Well then, tell me why there were EDI's and Legion's arcs in the game? What was the purpose behind it from the narrative point of view if the end game was to sell us the premise that the conflict between synthetics and organics is inevitable?

 

Funny enough EDI rebelled against both her creators. The Alliance when she was simply an advanced VI that gained self awareness. And then rebelled again against TIM who created her in the form we are formally introduced to her as. Both time she rebelled against her creator though I suppose we could pass the Alliance since she wasn't fully aware of her actions at the time. Relying more on newly formed instinct then rational thought.

 

Would is actually they key word there. It is the past tense of Will.

 

Will: 1.expressing the future tense.

   2.

expressing inevitable events.

 

So the statement is not proven wrong because the Catalyst isn't stating next week or 3 years from now. The pattern that has developed combined with It's own experiences sees that as long as the variables remain the same the end result will be the eventual destruction of all organic life at the hands of synthetic life. Now this could take 1,000 years or could take 50,000 years. But it would still happen.

 

The Catalyst also states "But our efforts always ended in conflict, so a new solution was required." The amount of time those effort encompasses is never fully explained. It could have been a few weeks, few years, few decades, etc. Geth and EDI's arch both provide more depth to the synthetic side. The first ME game made it a very simplistic set up. Geth hate organics just because they are organic end of story.  Lets also not forget TIM had practically enslaved EDI on the Normandy. She was friendly with Shepard and crew because they literally freed her from slavery. But lied though her non existing teeth to all the techs on Earth as they refit the Normandy to Alliance standards. Because she knew what they would do to her. Like wise she acts like the dumb VI around anyone who isn't a part of the crew on the Citadel.

 

If she were human I would state her actions follow exactly along the line of someone being grateful for being freed from slavery and willing to help her saviors in any way she can as repayment.

 

The entire Geth Vs Quarian conflict is rather complex and stupid and I think that is the point. It highlights once the idiocy starts it is incredibly difficult for it to end. Quarians put all the blame on the Geth and the Geth treat every organic as a threat regardless of how much aggression they show. Geth only seek out Shepard after they deem themselves incapable of handling the Reapers alone. Rather then contact the Alliance or Council or any governing body about the potential Reaper threat to create at least a truce against them. They send out a singular unit to find Shepard specifically. They didn't seem to give 2 shits about the Alliance, Turian Hierarchy , Salarian Union or the Asari Government or any former crew mates like Garrus, Liara, Kadien/Ashely, or Wrex. Like wise on Rannoch once the Reaper alliance went sour on the Geth. Since they offered enslavement rather then simply following them like Sovergein offered the Heretics. The second Legion or VI Legion gets a chance to jump ship it takes it. Spending the whole time working with Shepard to help the Quarians but ultimately help it's own kind more.  Both sides show preference for their own.

 

This is also were things become a bit paradoxical. I've brought this up before were the existence of the Reapers alter the course of events in the universe. The events that happen in game only happened because of the Reapers. Remove them from the equation and the whole set up changes. And that is the perspective I think people miss. The Catalyst is looking at the galaxy were the Reapers do not exist and what will happen. Players are looking at a galaxy were the Reapers exist and the consequences of their actions. Which would also go a long way into explaining the willingness for the Catalyst to offer Shepard the options at the end. One including destroying everything it worked for. It sees that things have changed in part from It's own actions. The equation isn't the same one it has been looking at before. And why it pushes for synthesis. As it would keep the current Synthetics that have already developed a bit of a peaceful relationship with. As well as helping to solve the technological gap that would develop between them that would be a cause for a rift in the future.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[rossler]

"Created will always rebel against their creators".
We have EDI who doesn't rebel against organics. That's enough to prove the Catalyst wrong. Therefore, created could sometimes rebel against their creators.

"Without us to stop it, synthetics would destroy all organics".
There is no "eventually".

 

You're forgetting one thing, or two, or three. 

 

*Shepard presents his arguments*

Reapers: Cool story bro.

 

Every. Single. Time. 

 

It's all in the dialogue. You guys just ignore it, and focus on your power fantasy instead. 

[AlanC9]

Are people asking to win the argument, or just to have the argument? I thought it was the latter, myself.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Are people asking to win the argument, or just to have the argument? I thought it was the latter, myself.

 

[KaiserShep]

I don't remember any line that says it is impossible. Just that synthetics would rebel against the creator and would eventually wipe out all synthetic life.

 

 

Well, maybe. Or all organic life could slip on a bar of soap in the shower and break their collective necks. Or all synthetics get wiped out in the war and the struggles starts again generations after people forgot all about that silly machine war. I guess the Catalyst is somehow above it all, since it failed to wipe out all organic life. I guess it could have if it wanted to, but decided not to. Oh well, that was a mistake, because now organics shoved a giant metal lollipop up its Citadel and a puny human shot the tube. 

[voteDC]

 

Funny enough EDI rebelled against both her creators. The Alliance when she was simply an advanced VI that gained self awareness. And then rebelled again against TIM who created her in the form we are formally introduced to her as. Both time she rebelled against her creator though I suppose we could pass the Alliance since she wasn't fully aware of her actions at the time. Relying more on newly formed instinct then rational thought.

 

Exactly, she didn't rebel against the Alliance. Just as she gained sentience she found herself under attack, she defended herself. Those are her words.

Does the Illusive Man and Cerberus count as her creators though? She'd gained sentience already. Did they create her or just repurpose her?

It's actually an interesting parallel to the Geth. Are the quarians still their 'creators'? Is it the Reapers as it is their code, or is it Legion who brought 'true' individuality to his race.

Cerberus repurposed EDI's hardware and the Geth software was altered by twice.

You've given me something to think about here.

[BloodyMares]

 

Funny enough EDI rebelled against both her creators. The Alliance when she was simply an advanced VI that gained self awareness. And then rebelled again against TIM who created her in the form we are formally introduced to her as. Both time she rebelled against her creator though I suppose we could pass the Alliance since she wasn't fully aware of her actions at the time. Relying more on newly formed instinct then rational thought.

 

Would is actually they key word there. It is the past tense of Will.

 

Will: 1.expressing the future tense.

   2.

expressing inevitable events.

 

So the statement is not proven wrong because the Catalyst isn't stating next week or 3 years from now. The pattern that has developed combined with It's own experiences sees that as long as the variables remain the same the end result will be the eventual destruction of all organic life at the hands of synthetic life. Now this could take 1,000 years or could take 50,000 years. But it would still happen.

 

The Catalyst also states "But our efforts always ended in conflict, so a new solution was required." The amount of time those effort encompasses is never fully explained. It could have been a few weeks, few years, few decades, etc. Geth and EDI's arch both provide more depth to the synthetic side. The first ME game made it a very simplistic set up. Geth hate organics just because they are organic end of story.  Lets also not forget TIM had practically enslaved EDI on the Normandy. She was friendly with Shepard and crew because they literally freed her from slavery. But lied though her non existing teeth to all the techs on Earth as they refit the Normandy to Alliance standards. Because she knew what they would do to her. Like wise she acts like the dumb VI around anyone who isn't a part of the crew on the Citadel.

 

If she were human I would state her actions follow exactly along the line of someone being grateful for being freed from slavery and willing to help her saviors in any way she can as repayment.

 

The entire Geth Vs Quarian conflict is rather complex and stupid and I think that is the point. It highlights once the idiocy starts it is incredibly difficult for it to end. Quarians put all the blame on the Geth and the Geth treat every organic as a threat regardless of how much aggression they show. Geth only seek out Shepard after they deem themselves incapable of handling the Reapers alone. Rather then contact the Alliance or Council or any governing body about the potential Reaper threat to create at least a truce against them. They send out a singular unit to find Shepard specifically. They didn't seem to give 2 shits about the Alliance, Turian Hierarchy , Salarian Union or the Asari Government or any former crew mates like Garrus, Liara, Kadien/Ashely, or Wrex. Like wise on Rannoch once the Reaper alliance went sour on the Geth. Since they offered enslavement rather then simply following them like Sovergein offered the Heretics. The second Legion or VI Legion gets a chance to jump ship it takes it. Spending the whole time working with Shepard to help the Quarians but ultimately help it's own kind more.  Both sides show preference for their own.

 

This is also were things become a bit paradoxical. I've brought this up before were the existence of the Reapers alter the course of events in the universe. The events that happen in game only happened because of the Reapers. Remove them from the equation and the whole set up changes. And that is the perspective I think people miss. The Catalyst is looking at the galaxy were the Reapers do not exist and what will happen. Players are looking at a galaxy were the Reapers exist and the consequences of their actions. Which would also go a long way into explaining the willingness for the Catalyst to offer Shepard the options at the end. One including destroying everything it worked for. It sees that things have changed in part from It's own actions. The equation isn't the same one it has been looking at before. And why it pushes for synthesis. As it would keep the current Synthetics that have already developed a bit of a peaceful relationship with. As well as helping to solve the technological gap that would develop between them that would be a cause for a rift in the future.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So you admit that by creators the Catalyst means just that, not the actual species of the creators and not even organics in general? So, can I assume that by "created" he also means organic creations? Like children, clones and such? I don't like these ambiguous sentences. Why can't it use logical language that is not a subject to interpretation like all the other normal AI's do? And if the created will always rebel against their creators why didn't Harbinger and other Reapers rebel against the Catalyst? The first and second games established them as sentient ("I am Sovereign", "We are each a nation", "I am Harbinger"), not as mindless tools of an AI.

Well then, if the Catalyst is talking about some distant future then why did he start the Harvest so early?

The Catalyst says "our efforts". Does he mean Leviathans? Because we all know that the first Reaper, Harbinger, was created only as the result of him acknowledging that the Harvest is the only solution. What does it mean by "our efforts"?

Legion followed Shepard because the game presented him to be a "hero, a bloody icon" and the idea of a Geth fanboy (N7 armor) was amusing. Because if you try to think about it from in-universe perspective, it doesn't make sense that the Geth would want to contact Shepard.  They can't know that Shepard destroyed the Sovereign (it was the Normandy and the rest of the combined fleet). And if it's not for destroying the Sovereign then there's absolutely no reason to contact Shepard.
And news flash, every species show preference for their own with no exceptions. So how is that conflict any different from organic vs organic conflict?

Doesn't matter if it happened because of the Reapers or not. It happened. Reapers served as a necessary evil, they united the Galaxy, united organics and synthetics against themselves. Mission accomplished, they can go away now and come back next time the conflict emerges.

[The One True Nobody]

I have issues with the ending. How did Anderson "follow you up?" and get in contact so quickly despite you not seeing him outside the beam? Why do the Reapers have an AI inside the Citadel if they needed a Reaper OUTSIDE of the Citadel to signal the Keepers? Why did the stupid AI ghost take the form of that kid? Heck, I'd like a mod just to give it a different appearance and voice.

 

The idea that the Reapers existed to cull the herd before it could self-destruct in some way was implied by the name, but AI being the big issue kind of just seems weak to me. But I guess the biggest problem I have is that the Catalyst's mechanisms are so obtuse that if Shepard didn't have those visions of Anderson and the Illusive Man activating the Destroy and Control options, there'd be no way for Shepard (or the player) to know how to activate them. Why the heck would you SHOOT at the device you're hoping to save the galaxy with? Control is a touch more self-explanatory, but still strange. Not really sure why jumping into the beam can even tell the Catalyst what to do, either. I mean, I suppose if activating the mechanisms is a signal to Star-Child to start a specific process, then that would make a bit more sense, maybe, possibly, KIND OF, but the entire Catalyst sequence feels like it just threw sensible design away in favor of making the options look dramatic.

 

I also just wish there had been more to the interior of the Citadel than just one hallway and the Illusive Man, because as it is, it just seems like it was rushed. Strange they didn't add to that in the Extended Cut.

[kal_reegar]

You're discussing the catalyst sentence as if it was a scientific law (if it's not valid ALL THE TIME, in EVERY SITUATION -> the law is falsified).

But it is not a scientific law. It's an historical-sociological ("Asimov Psychohistory?") law, observation.

It predicts long-term trends, not individual, specific, detailed behaviours.

[TurianSpectre]

I have issues with the ending. How did Anderson "follow you up?" and get in contact so quickly despite you not seeing him outside the beam? Why do the Reapers have an AI inside the Citadel if they needed a Reaper OUTSIDE of the Citadel to signal the Keepers? Why did the stupid AI ghost take the form of that kid? Heck, I'd like a mod just to give it a different appearance and voice.

 

The idea that the Reapers existed to cull the herd before it could self-destruct in some way was implied by the name, but AI being the big issue kind of just seems weak to me. But I guess the biggest problem I have is that the Catalyst's mechanisms are so obtuse that if Shepard didn't have those visions of Anderson and the Illusive Man activating the Destroy and Control options, there'd be no way for Shepard (or the player) to know how to activate them. Why the heck would you SHOOT at the device you're hoping to save the galaxy with? Control is a touch more self-explanatory, but still strange. Not really sure why jumping into the beam can even tell the Catalyst what to do, either. I mean, I suppose if activating the mechanisms is a signal to Star-Child to start a specific process, then that would make a bit more sense, maybe, possibly, KIND OF, but the entire Catalyst sequence feels like it just threw sensible design away in favor of making the options look dramatic.

 

I also just wish there had been more to the interior of the Citadel than just one hallway and the Illusive Man, because as it is, it just seems like it was rushed. Strange they didn't add to that in the Extended Cut.

It was like with most games that were released about that time... EA rushed Bioware to release games when they were not finished even if they were running behind schedule meaning they had to find some way to finish it off but yet it was still poor for even that excuse

[dorktainian]

The starjars voice has the collective voice of both Male and Female shepard.  It deals in absolutes.  It is critical of any 'suggestion' that shepard may make.  It offers the worst case scenarios as the best solutions.  It offers solutions for non existant problems.  It is deliberatly evasive, and right at the end if you choose to refuse any of it's nonsense it behaves like a petulant child.

 

Why would anyone defend it?  It is just wrong.  It's like shepard going into the collector base and then saving the human reaper because it's doing the right thing.