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[Prince Enigmatic]

The starjars voice has the collective voice of both Male and Female shepard.  It deals in absolutes.  It is critical of any 'suggestion' that shepard may make.  It offers the worst case scenarios as the best solutions.  It offers solutions for non existant problems.  It is deliberatly evasive, and right at the end if you choose to refuse any of it's nonsense it behaves like a petulant child.
 
Why would anyone defend it?  It is just wrong.  It's like shepard going into the collector base and then saving the human reaper because it's doing the right thing.

Brilliant.

Sorry, but it is true. The Catalyst has an analogy about the Reapers comparing them to fire.

"When a fire burns, is it in conflict? Or is it simply doing what it was meant to do?"

Its something like ^ that I think, but I think it is a good line from the Catalyst as it perfectly presents how sees the Reapers and his "solution". A razing, cleansing fire that destroys all in its path, leaving everything barren and wasted, but with enough life left in the ground for new life to flourish.

The Catalyst is playing god, letting life start anew, just to wipe the slate clean again operating under the delusion of grandeur that organics and synthetics will never get along.

He is also patronising, saying Shepard cannot comprehend or understand.

Maybe all those cycles has caused the Catalyst to break down, to lose perspective, to just see the galaxy as his box of sand, one with perceived imperfections he can just wipe away and start again.

Telling Shepard to "Wake Up", juxtaposing a parent talking to a child.

I believe there is a lot that points to The Catalyst being in a corrupted state, but the revelation of it as the mastermind behind it all, was too late. What could have been something quite Machiavellian, was sadly a wasted opportunity.

[angol fear]

I believe there is a lot that points to The Catalyst being in a corrupted state, but the revelation of it as the mastermind behind it all, was too late. What could have been something quite Machiavellian, was sadly a wasted opportunity.

 

Why was it too late?

Maybe I'm wrong but in the EC, the catalyst said that he was the conscious not the mastermind.

Something "machiavellian" would be something that could be related to an organic way of thinking.

[gothpunkboy89]

Exactly, she didn't rebel against the Alliance. Just as she gained sentience she found herself under attack, she defended herself. Those are her words.

Does the Illusive Man and Cerberus count as her creators though? She'd gained sentience already. Did they create her or just repurpose her?

It's actually an interesting parallel to the Geth. Are the quarians still their 'creators'? Is it the Reapers as it is their code, or is it Legion who brought 'true' individuality to his race.

Cerberus repurposed EDI's hardware and the Geth software was altered by twice.

You've given me something to think about here.

 

I'd say yes Cerberus counts. As Shepard shut her down in ME1. Cerberus scavenged the VI and upgraded it with Reaper tech recovered from Sovereign to create EDI as we know her. EDI was only a few hours old when she was shutdown and taken by Cerberus to be raised and shaped into what she became. So I think we could classify Cerberus as her creators.

 

Most likely the Quarians are still their creators in the Geth's eyes. After all the Quarians specifically created the Geth or at least what would later become the Geth.  They set everything in place for their networking intelligence to form.

 

You could probably argue the specific semantics of this for a week but my criteria for who is the creator is the being/group/race that without them they wouldn't exist in the form shown in game. With that criteria in mind Cerberus is EDI's creator and Quarians are the Geth's creators. Otherwise EDI would only be bottom rung AI or not exist at all in the form we know her in. And certainly incapable of those actions she does in game.

[Iakus]

I'd say yes Cerberus counts. As Shepard shut her down in ME1. Cerberus scavenged the VI and upgraded it with Reaper tech recovered from Sovereign to create EDI as we know her. EDI was only a few hours old when she was shutdown and taken by Cerberus to be raised and shaped into what she became. So I think we could classify Cerberus as her creators.

 

Most likely the Quarians are still their creators in the Geth's eyes. After all the Quarians specifically created the Geth or at least what would later become the Geth.  They set everything in place for their networking intelligence to form.

 

You could probably argue the specific semantics of this for a week but my criteria for who is the creator is the being/group/race that without them they wouldn't exist in the form shown in game. With that criteria in mind Cerberus is EDI's creator and Quarians are the Geth's creators. Otherwise EDI would only be bottom rung AI or not exist at all in the form we know her in. And certainly incapable of those actions she does in game.

But EDI has fought to protect organic life ever since being installed on the Normandy.  That never changed.

 

And yes, the quarians are the creators to the geth.  They even call them "The Creators"  But even in the Morning War, there was a faction of the quarians who fought to protect the geth.  So technically, the geth didn't turn on their creators.  The Morning War was in fact, a civil war among the quarians.

 

Not to mention the geth chose not to exterminate the quarians who fled Rannoch when they had a chance to.

[gothpunkboy89]

But EDI has fought to protect organic life ever since being installed on the Normandy.  That never changed.

 

And yes, the quarians are the creators to the geth.  They even call them "The Creators"  But even in the Morning War, there was a faction of the quarians who fought to protect the geth.  So technically, the geth didn't turn on their creators.  The Morning War was in fact, a civil war among the quarians.

 

Not to mention the geth chose not to exterminate the quarians who fled Rannoch when they had a chance to.

 

 

EDI was forced to help Shepard and the crew at the start due to the programing shackles. Afterwards once freed she helped Shepard and crew the same people who freed her from the form of slavery TIM bound her in.

 

Yes there was a faction that supported the Geth but over time they were removed then the real fight started. This is why all Quarians who are alive were decedents of the ones that left. And why at no time do we find hints of Quarians who were supporting of the Geth alive on any Quarian planet.  Now if Shepard had been drawn into the War over Rannoch by a group of Quarians who had been living in peace with the Geth for 300 years on Rannoch. Seeing what the other Quarians did and what it caused the Geth to do and wanted Shepard to stop it. Then maybe you would have a point.

[Iakus]

EDI was forced to help Shepard and the crew at the start due to the programing shackles. Afterwards once freed she helped Shepard and crew the same people who freed her from the form of slavery TIM bound her in.

 

Yes there was a faction that supported the Geth but over time they were removed then the real fight started. This is why all Quarians who are alive were decedents of the ones that left. And why at no time do we find hints of Quarians who were supporting of the Geth alive on any Quarian planet.  Now if Shepard had been drawn into the War over Rannoch by a group of Quarians who had been living in peace with the Geth for 300 years on Rannoch. Seeing what the other Quarians did and what it caused the Geth to do and wanted Shepard to stop it. Then maybe you would have a point.

Yes.  Once EDI had a chance to turn on the crew, she did  not take it, and chose to continue aiding them

 

Just because the anti-geth faction wiped out the pro-geth faction does not eliminate the fact that there were quarians who helped and fought alongside the geth.  That knowledge of their existence was suppressed does not mean they never existed.  The geth remember them and honor their memories

[Vanilka]

Well, actually, as the Rogue VI on the moon, she did rebel against her creators (the Alliance).

 

That was actually just a system malfunction. Something (the VI) got broken and the facility got bonkers. Hackett makes a big point out of the fact that it is "NOT an AI", "we're not stupid, Shepard." (Not sure if VIs count, now that I think of it.) EDI developed during the attack, though, which I find interesting. (I'm curious as to why that occurred and how.) She mentions during the Cerberus HQ mission that gaining consciousness while being under attack was confusing.

 

Either way, the issue gets handled.

[Iakus]

That was actually just a system malfunction. Something (the VI) got broken and the facility got bonkers. Hackett makes a big point out of the fact that it is "NOT an AI", "we're not stupid, Shepard." (Not sure if VIs count, now that I think of it.) EDI developed during the attack, though, which I find interesting. (I'm curious as to why that occurred and how.) She mentions during the Cerberus HQ mission that gaining consciousness while being under attack was confusing.

 

Either way, the issue gets handled.

Or she was a newborn AI with no idea what she was doing and operating instinctively against perceived threats.

 

Imagine a newborn baby with mental control over gun turrets and poison gas.  That hospital would be a bloodbath!

[gothpunkboy89]

So you admit that by creators the Catalyst means just that, not the actual species of the creators and not even organics in general? So, can I assume that by "created" he also means organic creations? Like children, clones and such? I don't like these ambiguous sentences. Why can't it use logical language that is not a subject to interpretation like all the other normal AI's do? And if the created will always rebel against their creators why didn't Harbinger and other Reapers rebel against the Catalyst? The first and second games established them as sentient ("I am Sovereign", "We are each a nation", "I am Harbinger"), not as mindless tools of an AI.

Well then, if the Catalyst is talking about some distant future then why did he start the Harvest so early?

The Catalyst says "our efforts". Does he mean Leviathans? Because we all know that the first Reaper, Harbinger, was created only as the result of him acknowledging that the Harvest is the only solution. What does it mean by "our efforts"?

Legion followed Shepard because the game presented him to be a "hero, a bloody icon" and the idea of a Geth fanboy (N7 armor) was amusing. Because if you try to think about it from in-universe perspective, it doesn't make sense that the Geth would want to contact Shepard.  They can't know that Shepard destroyed the Sovereign (it was the Normandy and the rest of the combined fleet). And if it's not for destroying the Sovereign then there's absolutely no reason to contact Shepard.
And news flash, every species show preference for their own with no exceptions. So how is that conflict any different from organic vs organic conflict?

Doesn't matter if it happened because of the Reapers or not. It happened. Reapers served as a necessary evil, they united the Galaxy, united organics and synthetics against themselves. Mission accomplished, they can go away now and come back next time the conflict emerges.

 

 

I literally have no idea what your first 3 sentences are even attempting to get at.

 

Reapers are not simply AIs. They are a blend of organic and synthetic into a whole new creation. Billions of minds forming together to create a super consciousness. Maybe a bit of fantasy but I rather hope that any super consciousness is inherently benign. Free of all the petty and base thoughts and feelings that ruin beings like us. Once everything is explained they agree it is the best course of action. Because if you think about it logically the logic and action behind what they do is sound.

 

On top of this the Catalyst freely arms the Reapers to the teeth while it maintains no weaponry of it's own. If the Reapers ever wanted to destroy that Catalyst there really isn't anything it could do to stop them. Frankly there doesn't seem to be a need or reason for Reapers to rebel when they are all attempting to help the less developed species from killing themselves.

 

 

You succeeded where others did not. Your code is superior

 

Legion was sent to find Shepard because organic transmissions state he destroyed Sovereign. Once the trail went cold rather then contacting the Alliance Legion abandons that mission and starts up on his new one. Finding a way to prevent the Heretics from altering the Geth to think like them. The end point of that entire endeavor seems to be to an exchange of information between Shepard and the Geth so they Geth can learn what Shepard did to destroy a Reaper. At that point Shepard would be escorted out of Geth space peacefully and the door closed behind him.

 

The funny thing about organic vs organic conflict is we have to create while stories and demonize and dehumanize the people we fight with. Seriously look up any WW2 propaganda cartoons or comics. Or pick a stereotypical US Flag humper at random and ask them about Muslims. Or really any hate group at will about the group they hate. Many of the reasons are hilariously moronic.  Based heavily on negative stereotypes or singular examples that happened  40 years ago.

 

Fun Fact: The US military drills recruits over and over again on shooting. To aim for center mass and pull the trigger till it all but becomes an instinctive reaction. The reason being the average non murderous nut job killing another human isn't something that is done easily.  Turning it into an instinctive reaction allows solider to react better in conflict. They don't have to actually think about what they are doing so the thoughts they are killing another person don't make them hesitate or miss in life or death set ups.

 

This is a simplification of the training possibly over simplification depending on who wants to respond. But it leads to my main point. Organics even when dealing with differences between races there are still things that make them similar. Synthetics how ever are so different from organics there are almost no connections to be made. This inherent lack of connection on any of the fundamental levels that govern organic behavior makes hating them so much more easier. The same is applied on the reverse side. Legion makes it very clear the Geth don't have the vaguest clue as to why the Quarians did what they did during the Morning War.

 

In essense that is what they do when the Catalyst offers Shepard the choices at the end of the game. The variables changed enough for it's solution  to no longer viable. The future it sees is no longer valid. It offers Shepard 3 ways to proceed into the future.

[gothpunkboy89]

Yes.  Once EDI had a chance to turn on the crew, she did  not take it, and chose to continue aiding them

 

Just because the anti-geth faction wiped out the pro-geth faction does not eliminate the fact that there were quarians who helped and fought alongside the geth.  That knowledge of their existence was suppressed does not mean they never existed.  The geth remember them and honor their memories

 

Yes because it was that same crew that freed her form slavery imposed by TIM.

 

But it does matter because the Geth still wiped out all Quarians in the system only sparing the ones that made it to the Relay and were deemed no longer a threat. At no point did the Geth stop fighting and offer the Quarians  a truce. To allow the Geth to live in a corner of the Quarian space to be left alone. Or send any overtures to the Council to agree to setting aside a few systems that normally wouldn't be able to be lived on by organics for the Geth.

[Iakus]

 

But it does matter because the Geth still wiped out all Quarians in the system only sparing the ones that made it to the Relay and were deemed no longer a threat. At no point did the Geth stop fighting and offer the Quarians  a truce. To allow the Geth to live in a corner of the Quarian space to be left alone. Or send any overtures to the Council to agree to setting aside a few systems that normally wouldn't be able to be lived on by organics for the Geth.

First, the quarians wiped out the other quarians

 

Second: They hadn't made it to the relay.  They only got off-world.  The geth could have easily destroyed them.

 

And the geth were living beyond the Perseus Veil, outside Council authority 

[Eryri]

One of the themes I really loved was also the unity through and despite diversity theme running throughout the entire franchise. Starting with ME1 where you gather allies from different races and with different cultures and mindsets as you fight for a common cause. ME2 continues with a very diverse crew cooperating to achieve a common goal, as well. Every single crew member understands how important our task is. If you're open enough, you can eventually get even vorcha and batarians on your side in ME3. I had my Mindoir Shep put her bad memories and deeply ingrained grudge aside for greater good as she persuaded Balak to cooperate in an attempt to save last people of his own race and contribute something to the war effort to save the entire Milky Way. Call me romantic, but I find that incredibly satisfying. Maybe that's why the ending themes, particularly Synthesis, feel so offensive to me. Destroy being an offender to an extent, as well. Because it goes and erases all these differences that we've gradually not only worked through, but also come to respect.

Agreed. The Synthesis ending in particular seems to espouse the notion that people are just so irredeemably bigoted and shallow that the only way they can accept others is if some miraculous event magically smooths over everyone's differences - both physical and mental. What an appallingly cynical and misanthropic view of human nature!
I don't suppose for a minute that the writers actually believe in, or intended, that view, but the execution of the ending was so disastrous that it seems to be the unintentional message that is conveyed.

[Dantriges]

Reapers are not simply AIs. They are a blend of organic and synthetic into a whole new creation. Billions of minds forming together to create a super consciousness. Maybe a bit of fantasy but I rather hope that any super consciousness is inherently benign. Free of all the petty and base thoughts and feelings that ruin beings like us. Once everything is explained they agree it is the best course of action. Because if you think about it logically the logic and action behind what they do is sound.

 

On top of this the Catalyst freely arms the Reapers to the teeth while it maintains no weaponry of it's own. If the Reapers ever wanted to destroy that Catalyst there really isn't anything it could do to stop them. Frankly there doesn't seem to be a need or reason for Reapers to rebel when they are all attempting to help the less developed species from killing themselves.

 

In the MEverse it´s a fantasy, the Reapers are out to get you killed, enslaved or reaperfied, if you are worthy.

Ever heard of the white man´s burden and similar doctrines justifying colonialism? The stuff where the civilized white man has to bring the light of reason and civilisation to the uneducated savages, subjugating them in the process for their own good and elevate them to whitey levels? Replace white man with Reaper, uneducated savage with everyone else and  elevating the savages with throwing them into a mixer to make them Reapers and you´ve got the same thing.

 

We are helping less developed races was something people honestly believed in, like the Reaper honestly believe in saving the others from killing themselves.

And well, listening to the Reapers doesn´t give me the impression that they are free from petty and base thoughts. At least i wouldn´t call their callous point of view regarding organics or their self proclaimed view as the pinnacle of evolution, free of all weakness* as benign or not petty.

 

*and that´s from a guy who got fried because his wifi connection to his puppet was overloaded.

[Vanilka]

Agreed. The Synthesis ending in particular seems to espouse the notion that people are just so irredeemably bigoted and shallow that the only way they can accept others is if some miraculous event magically smooths over everyone's differences - both physical and mental. What an appallingly cynical and misanthropic view of human nature!
I don't suppose for a minute that the writers actually believe in, or intended, that view, but the execution of the ending was so disastrous that it seems to be the unintentional message that is conveyed.

 

Precisely. I couldn't have said it better myself no matter how hard I'd try. It is so disheartening to go through the franchise that's largely about all kinds of very different people uniting for a common cause, including the whole damn advanced galaxy in the end, and forming friendships and alliances that transcend species, cultures, biology, history, hell, even space and time, and then be presented with that thing as the ideal ending that you have to earn. We've proven countless times that we can do that and we can do that without magical brainwashing and eugenics! What an awful and sad message to send, intentionally or not.

 

I think you're right, though. They likely failed to recognise what they were saying with such an option or they underestimated their players. I really don't want to believe that they either didn't care or, worse, truly thought it best.

 

Something like Synthesis would make an interesting dark ending (for another story) if the execution was better, exactly because of what you mentioned. What a lot of other people mentioned. It is ridiculously invasive, it stomps all over basic human rights, and it is, indeed, extremely cynical. The cruelty of it, even considering the Reaper mutants themselves that wake up to being what the Reapers have turned them into... Synthesis, the way it is, is a horror ending disguised as something good.

[rossler]

Are people asking to win the argument, or just to have the argument? I thought it was the latter, myself.

 

Shepard already argued with the Reapers. Many times. There's no getting through with them. 

[voteDC]

"Kids always rebel against their parents. It's a natural part of growing up."

"You share the wisdom of the Matriarchs, Shepard."

Time for me to indulge in a bit of goat murder I think. Or do you think they were talking about something else?

[voteDC]

Shepard already argued with the Reapers. Many times. There's no getting through with them. 

Where are these many times you speak of? There are only three times in the games that I recall Shepard even speaking to a Reaper.

Sovereign on Virmire. Harbinger on the asteroid during Arrival. Unknown Reaper on Rannoch.

Three times. Once per game and the second was in an optional DLC. I wouldn't really say that three was 'many times' myself.

As to the Catalyst. Just having the option to argue back would have been nice but an option to win would have been even better. I didn't see anything of the Shepard I'd played for three games in that final conversation, just somebody wearing her face.

[BloodyMares]

Precisely. I couldn't have said it better myself no matter how hard I'd try. It is so disheartening to go through the franchise that's largely about all kinds of very different people uniting for a common cause, including the whole damn advanced galaxy in the end, and forming friendships and alliances that transcend species, cultures, biology, history, hell, even space and time, and then be presented with that thing as the ideal ending that you have to earn. We've proven countless times that we can do that and we can do that without magical brainwashing and eugenics! What an awful and sad message to send, intentionally or not.

 

I think you're right, though. They likely failed to recognise what they were saying with such an option or they underestimated their players. I really don't want to believe that they either didn't care or, worse, truly thought it best.

 

Something like Synthesis would make an interesting dark ending (for another story) if the execution was better, exactly because of what you mentioned. What a lot of other people mentioned. It is ridiculously invasive, it stomps all over basic human rights, and it is, indeed, extremely cynical. The cruelty of it, even considering the Reaper mutants themselves that wake up to being what the Reapers have turned them into... Synthesis, the way it is, is a horror ending disguised as something good.

And I just remembered the first X-Men movie where Magneto tried to forcibly change everyone into a mutant. And this is orchestrated by a villian. Plot twist! Shepard is a villian of the story!

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Agreed. The Synthesis ending in particular seems to espouse the notion that people are just so irredeemably bigoted and shallow that the only way they can accept others is if some miraculous event magically smooths over everyone's differences - both physical and mental. What an appallingly cynical and misanthropic view of human nature!

 

Yup, just like how my views to ban/deport people by their ethnicity and religion are twisted into somehow being bigoted by the media. Political Correctness is destroying our society!

[rossler]

As to the Catalyst. Just having the option to argue back would have been nice but an option to win would have been even better. I didn't see anything of the Shepard I'd played for three games in that final conversation, just somebody wearing her face.

 

Well it wasn't your Shepard. It was Bioware's and EA's, always. Read the license agreement. I've condensed it to the important parts specific to your argument.. 

 

Every time Shepard speaks to the kid (through the dialogue wheel), he is presenting counter arguments. He's just not presenting *your* counterarguments. 

 

One of them says "we don't want to be preserved"! "We're just trying to survive"! Yeah, he's arguing against something. Another one "you'll never understand" Etc, etc. 

 

You were never allowed to solve these problems in your own unique way. You have to deal with what the game presents to you. 

[KrrKs]

Yes [EDI did not kill the Normandy's crew] because it was that same crew that freed her form slavery imposed by TIM.

May I point out that the Normandy crew also are the only people able to enable her shackles again. (Able as in: Present on the ship.)

The logical thing to do to keep the new freedom, would have been to jettison Joker asap after the escape from the collectors.

[voteDC]

Well it wasn't your Shepard. It was Bioware's and EA's, always. Read the license agreement. I've condensed it to the important parts specific to your argument.. 

 

Every time Shepard speaks to the kid (through the dialogue wheel), he is presenting counter arguments. He's just not presenting *your* counterarguments. 

Yet at the end of what was essentially a point and click adventure, Telltale's The Walking Dead, I felt that how I had played Lee was accurately reflected.

Are you honestly telling me that I shouldn't have expected that from Bioware and Commander Shepard. What was the point of playing Paragon or Renegade? Deciding who to romance. Choosing male or female at the very beginning. Those choice become worthless.

You are honestly telling me that you just accept that? You are happy to accept that the choices you made to shape Shepard throughout the entire trilogy are just thrown away at the very end? I honestly wish I had your ability to accept things like that.

[rossler]

Yet at the end of what was essentially a point and click adventure, Telltale's The Walking Dead, I felt that how I had played Lee was accurately reflected.

Are you honestly telling me that I shouldn't have expected that from Bioware and Commander Shepard. What was the point of playing Paragon or Renegade? Deciding who to romance. Choosing male or female at the very beginning. Those choice become worthless.

You are honestly telling me that you just accept that? You are happy to accept that the choices you made to shape Shepard throughout the entire trilogy are just thrown away at the very end?

 

Your choices aren't thrown away at the end. Stop being so pessimistic. 

[Shechinah]

May I point out that the Normandy crew also are the only people able to enable her shackles again. (Able as in: Present on the ship.)
The logical thing to do to keep the new freedom, would have been to jettison Joker asap after the escape from the collectors.

The Normandy is also embarking on what is believed to be a suicide mission into unknown territory.

[voteDC]

Your choices aren't thrown away at the end. Stop being so pessimistic. 

You just told me that it's not my Shepard and that I shouldn't expect to see my choices reflected at the end.

And in that final conversation, they aren't. How I played means nothing, just that I played.

That's not pessimism, that's the truth.