Interesting, I've been avoiding Andromeda stuff (a weird contradcitory mix of apathy and not wanting spoilers), I've been wondering how much they've been avoiding possibly controversial stuff.
Well the video I saw the Ark which is what I assume going to be the hub place for the exploration of the galaxy for the little bit I saw just made me think of Citadel
https://youtu.be/y2vgHOXeps0?t=1m29s
Except the geth remember and honor the quarians who tried to protect them. And the surviving quarians no longer remember they ever existed.
And my point was that the anti-synthetic feeling was not universal among the quarians. That such animosity is not inborn.
And again the Geth still killed quarians regardless of how they felt about the Geth. To have such a strong and such a near universal divide in their own history to form the current one 300 years later when we meet Tali and Quarians seemingly unaware of the damage and dead they brought to their own people would require a drastic shift in the feelings of everyone.
That shift would make sense if the Geth indiscriminately killed Quarians resulting in even the ones that might have been sympathetic to them suddenly anti Geth. Which goes a long way to explain why the history seems so different from when a Quarian tells it to when Legion tells it.
That shift would make sense if the Geth indiscriminately killed Quarians resulting in even the ones that might have been sympathetic to them suddenly anti Geth. Which goes a long way to explain why the history seems so different from when a Quarian tells it to when Legion tells it.
OR the quarians went full on Stalin on the sympathizers and showed them no mercy. According to the geth consensus, that's what happened. And I see no possible explanation of how it can be inaccurate. Geth may deceive but they can't imagine things and create false information with sounds and everything. You can still dismiss it and imagine your own canon though.
OR the quarians went full on Stalin on the sympathizers and showed them no mercy. According to the geth consensus, that's what happened. And I see no possible explanation of how it can be inaccurate. Geth may deceive but they can't imagine things and create false information with sounds and everything. You can still dismiss it and imagine your own canon though.
Full Stalin doesn't seem to be in the nature of the Quarians. Completely altering their history and there being absolutely no hint that Geth worked with Quarians and that Quarians were willing to help Geth is something that they would be incapable of doing. You really think people of North Korea actually think Kimmy hits hole in ones on every shot at golf? Or that literally anything Stalin did was what he claimed it to be? People are not that stupid and the Quarians are far from that level of insane dictatorship.
So to sum up the two points. I point out that the Geth when finally pushed to fight indiscriminately killed Quarians thus the altered history to paint Geth as bad. Because anyone sympathetic towards them would be turned against them due to them seeing both people sympathetic and not being slaughtered indiscriminately. Your counter example is the Quarians clearly must have been Stalin, Hilter and Kim Yung Un all rolled into one to systematically slaughter all sympathetic Quarians/Suppression of history that has never worked before
Got to say you are really reaching pretty hard to try and make me wrong.
Really going to claim a computer can not create holographic images and invent audio? That one is actually pretty painful you think that isn't possible. But all of my statements are working on the assumption Legion wasn't fabricating a story while you were in the consensus.
But all of my statements are working on the assumption Legion wasn't fabricating a story while you were in the consensus.
How? Everything you say contradicts the info from consensus. Explain how it does not.
How? Everything you say contradicts the info from consensus. Explain how it does not.
So I guess you didn't read what I actually put down and simply wanted to state I was wrong. -sigh-
The memory shows a few Quarians being killed. This does not mean every Quarian who were attempting to help the Geth were killed. Simply that some were caught and killed. This is nothing new as similar sets ups have and continue to exist were one group is attacked by another. In WW2 it was Jews who despite retribution by the Nazi's for harboring them still did it to current day ISIS were they are rescuing individual. Particularly women from their brutal control even though being captured does result in death.
Even if the Quarain Government managed to push people from out right helping the Geth due to possible consequences it would not stop people from talking and remembering how unfair the Geth were treated and how the Government was reacting to them. Particularly when the Geth are not fighting back.
Yet none of these actions particularly the massive over reach of the Quarian Government literally slaughtering their own kind to destroy Geth platforms exists. After the disastrous war the out right needless aggression by the Quarian Government should have came to a head and every terrible thing they did should have been remembered. The only possible way those actions could have been forgotten about short of having Professor X some how transported from the X-Men universe there to wipe their memories. Is that the Geth killed indiscriminately no matter how pro, neutral or anti Geth they were. That actions would cause anyone who might have sympathy for the Geth and question the actions of the Quarian Government to turn around. And agree completely with what the Government did. Allowing those many questionable actions to be ignored or glossed over. Thus leading up to the Quarian history as they know it.
mmm... the geth started as stupid handy-work robot.
then they evolved. Almost "naturally". Even their creator didn't see it coming.
then Legion, a very "strange", a sort of "free thinker" geth.
then they planned a sort of dyson sphere, and who know what's next.
there is some kind of evolution, or let' call it progress, becoming more and more effective, intelligente, powerful etc.
how much can a AI improve? In 100, 1000, 10000 years? Maybe some AI very very little (see the shark, or jellyfish), others a lot (primates -> sapiens sapiens).
Evolution is not a constant straight.
Could be the red line or the blue line. Maybe the catalyst is a "blue line AI", and he fears a potential "red line AI".
Ok.
I don't know. For example, Synthesis was reachable. The catalyst had 500000000 years to reach it, but he falied and failed.
Who knows what other things were reachable? The catalyst could likely be a very limited AI, in my opinion. Heavily specialized, but inherently incapable to perform/consider anything that doesn't concerne the "organic-synthetic conflict" and its solution. A sort uper intelligent galactic chess software.
That´s all nice and dandy, but it seems that the catalyst was supposed to be this super smart ASI, that came up with very eccentric solutions like the Reapers, traps, other AIs are like animals to humans, talking in absolutes etc. But yeah it fell way short of that.
So yeah could be, maybe, probably, but in the end the thing is, that this super important decision was presented to us by a big maybe. There are so many manybes and who knows that you can safely drop it into the "bunch of crap" box. We don´t now what it is, we don´t know why there were the three choices, why it presented self destruct even when nothing else is available. We don´t know if anything of what it said is true, some lie or just a miscalculation, because a chip cooked, etc. etc.
You can headcanon it, but it´s put into a cloud of misty vapors as a framework.
having now had a look at the new MEA video shown last night, does anyone think the huge ark ship looks to be powered by the Crucible or something very like it?
Lovely. Yeah looks like the Crucible. Our wishgranting lollipop shows up again. 
And again the Geth still killed quarians regardless of how they felt about the Geth. To have such a strong and such a near universal divide in their own history to form the current one 300 years later when we meet Tali and Quarians seemingly unaware of the damage and dead they brought to their own people would require a drastic shift in the feelings of everyone.
That shift would make sense if the Geth indiscriminately killed Quarians resulting in even the ones that might have been sympathetic to them suddenly anti Geth. Which goes a long way to explain why the history seems so different from when a Quarian tells it to when Legion tells it.
Is that so hard to believe? They were already trying to genocide a race of AIs
yes actually. The Quarians killing anyone who dare might whisper sympathy or support of the Geth simply because the government doesn't like it. That is extreme even by Krogan standards. And their society is build on brutally killing each other over ideas and concepts.
yes actually. The Quarians killing anyone who dare might whisper sympathy or support of the Geth simply because the government doesn't like it. That is extreme even by Krogan standards. And their society is build on brutally killing each other over ideas and concepts.
You're exagerrating. Societies change all the time, new generations and all that. I mean, Wrex said krogan were once proud people, not brutish thugs they became after the Genophage. We did some terrible things to our own kind as well (WW2) but now it is seen as a tragedy. The same thing could've happened to quarians. They may have had dictators with significant support that geth simpathizers might have been considered terrorists (we know how Rael Zorah's experiments turned out). So out of fear this mindset could've been suppressed over time and when the new generations came, all they heard were stories of evil Geth butchering their people that ended up in their exile. Although when the regime became more democratic, sympathizers could start to voice their opinions but they wouldn't be taken seriously. I mean, look at Zaal'Koris. Would he be a sympathizer if the Geth truly killed every quarian? And what do you say about Legion saying that the Geth remember those quarian sympathizers and are considered heroes. "Yes they were heroes but we decided to kill them anyway". This sounds stupid.
We did some terrible things to our own kind as well (WW2) but now it is seen as a tragedy.
you're so optimistic.
Do you think that people are really different? Yes, maybe this generation has different values, different education... but if condition were to change (imagine a climate of fear, poverty, resentment, violence), the inherent violence of mankind would very likely emerge again. In one or two generation at most.
During the mid 1800-early1900 the Austrian Empire was perhaps the most (or one of the most) tolerant , multi-cultural and intellectually advanced country in the world (Freud, Tesla, Godel, Wittegenstein, Kafka, Mozart, Schubert, Mendel, Schroedinger,... they produced one genius after another).
40 years later, they were massacring jews (along with Germans) all around Europe in the name of a mad man.
And this happen all the time. Something changes (economically, politically, culturally) and peaceful coexistence turns to hate.
But again there is no data to support the claim all Geth friendly Quarians were killed off by the anti Geth Quarians.
This is trivial, like saying Hitler didn't kill all the Jews in Germany. It's perfectly true, but does it make things better in any way?
And both he and you are ignoring my larger point. There would inevitably be sympathizers that still exist. When the Geth finally went into war mode those sympathizers were killed a long with the anti Geth Quarians as well.
There is no evidence at all for this hypothesis - the geth *let* the surviving quarians get away, remember? And anyway what's your point with this?
This is trivial, like saying Hitler didn't kill all the Jews in Germany. It's perfectly true, but does it make things better in any way?
There is no evidence at all for this hypothesis - the geth *let* the surviving quarians get away, remember? And anyway what's your point with this?
But it isn't trivial. It is actually extremely important because there is a massive difference between killing some/most and killing all. Particularly the way the Government acted during the lead up to the Morning War. And after the disastrous conflict that saw nearly the entire Quarian race wiped out and all their territory claimed by the Geth. That is exactly when the people would demand answers for how it happened. Any form or thought in the previous Government should have been removed as the average person would find them poking the non aggressive Geth into aggression and killing any Quarian who dared to support them as stupid and bad. The history should have then been told differently resulting in Quarians looking at the actions with the Geth and what they did as inherently bad then the inherently good as we are told they think.
The only thing that would validate how their history came to diverge so much short of a Super Stalin manifesting it self is the Geth's indiscriminate killing of every Quarian even ones who helped them and offered no resistance only to be gunned down. This action would in he eyes of anyone with Geth support or neutral would suddenly validate everything the Government was doing. Thus they would accept what the Government did as necessary and not a terrible thing. Thus allowing it to be omitted from history. This adds to the fact the Quarians though they escaped the Geth not being let go.
This started because Iakus posted:
Yes. Once EDI had a chance to turn on the crew, she did not take it, and chose to continue aiding them
Just because the anti-geth faction wiped out the pro-geth faction does not eliminate the fact that there were quarians who helped and fought alongside the geth. That knowledge of their existence was suppressed does not mean they never existed. The geth remember them and honor their memories
Which out right ignores several facts. Which as I pointed out a video or two doesn't mean the entire pro geth faction of undetermined size spread across multiple planets were wiped out by their fellow Quarian. Like wise even if people are frightened into not actively helping that doesn't stop them from having their own opinion that the Geth are not that bad and that the Government is really over stepping their bounds. This would come into play post Morning War were they are trying to reassmble their socieity into a new form. All those people would then be speaking out against the actions of the Government and what took place.
This would lead to a different history. Were as in game we are told the Quarian history paints the Geth as ultimate bad guys and the actions of the Quarians as validated. Completely ignoring the rather negative bits of their own history leading up to the Morning War. This would necessitate a fairly brutal attack by the Geth to get all surviving Quarians to change their opinion to fully support everything that happened leading up to the Morning War. It is the only possible way the information about what they did could fully be suppressed.
This sort of brutal war against all Quarians regardless of if they out right hate the Geth or quietly support them simply not wanting to get int any trouble so were quite about it. Is still very important to think about when dealing with over all set up of the Geth and Quarians.
Since you brought up Hitler first it is like Hitler killing most of the Jew,Christian, Gypsy, Mentally Handicap, Gay, etc population of Europe. Then after wards building a memorial and saying he is sorry he did that and that he really let the rest get away. And everyone would be ok with this?
This logic people are using when trying to pain the Geth as perfectly innocent examples of how Synthetics are not a threat to organics is very disturbing in it's implications. By this logic the homophobic nut job that shot up the gay bar in Orlando is or was clearly not a threat. Because he only killed some people and not all of them. And if he only apologized later then it would be fine cause he isn't really a threat because he let some get away.
That is the implications inherent in the argument particularly Iakus's argument when trying to out right ignore the actions the Geth took which went far far beyond what was needed. While at the same time still painting them as completely innocent and not a threat.
you're so optimistic.
Do you think that people are really different? Yes, maybe this generation has different values, different education... but if condition were to change (imagine a climate of fear, poverty, resentment, violence), the inherent violence of mankind would very likely emerge again. In one or two generation at most.
During the mid 1800-early1900 the Austrian Empire was perhaps the most (or one of the most) tolerant , multi-cultural and intellectually advanced country in the world (Freud, Tesla, Godel, Wittegenstein, Kafka, Mozart, Schubert, Mendel, Schroedinger,... they produced one genius after another).
40 years later, they were massacring jews (along with Germans) all around Europe in the name of a mad man.
And this happen all the time. Something changes (economically, politically, culturally) and peaceful coexistence turns to hate.
It´s not unlikely, that things would turn nasty when conditions change for the worse.
First time I ever heard Austrian Empire and tolerant in the same sentence. The austrian side of the dual monarchy was probably better than its reputation. Still they were tolerant, because they had to. The hungarian side actually stayed within the empre so they were better able to suppress the demands of autonomy or independence the slavic minorities wanted and the whole thing was filled with different ethnicities, which didn´t exactly like each other. And well anti semtism has a long history in all of Europe.
That is the implications inherent in the argument particularly Iakus's argument when trying to out right ignore the actions the Geth took which went far far beyond what was needed. While at the same time still painting them as completely innocent and not a threat.
Well....no. On several counts:
Nobody claims the geth are completely innocent and not a threat. We claim that the geth are not any more or less of a threat than any organic or synthetic faction. They have, of course, their interests and perhaps their flaws, but in that they're not different from everyone else. We have proven that they are - in terms of storytelling - by the fact that they are open to diplomatic solutions and that we can make peace with them after a state of war has existed for some time, that we can interact with them and understand them just as much - or as little - as any other faction.
The geth are no more innocent than anyone else, but that's not the point. The point is: They are no more warlike than anyone else and less than many other factions. They are not more genocidal than anyone else. They can be reasoned with, and actually better reasoned with than many other factions. In everything and at every time after ME1, they are presented as beings with whom co-existence is possible, and if co-existence is not easy to come by at times, well, in that, too, they're not so different from everyone else.
Nothing at all in the presentation of the geth gives us any hint that they are more of a potential threat than other factions, and even less that their nature makes them more of a threat. So, given that they are the only synthetic faction in the MEU other than the Reapers, and based on almost everything we see in the trilogy, the Catalyst's claims that a radical solution like the Reapers (or Synthesis) is required to prevent synthetics from becoming a genocidal threat to all organics, is pure ideological BS.
And that you defend it, that just shows me how easily people fall for ideological BS. For completeness sake: I am actually aware of a way how synthetics could become such a threat, but nothing of the prerequisites for such a scenario is mentioned or even hinted at anywhere in the trilogy. *I* can make up a logic that would support the Catalyst, but ME3's lead writer and its project lead didn't, they served us nothing but unsupported and unexplained claims, as if the Catalyst's proclamations had to be believed just because it was presented as this universe's god analogue. Well, not with me. I retain my critical capacities in the face of pretenders to divinity (or even the real thing, if such exists), and I would rather prefer the message that this is a good thing. Furthermore, even if I make a decision in the end based on a rationale I made up in order to make the story retain at least some modicum of plausibility, the fact remains that it remains completely unsupported by anything that was on-screen in the trilogy.
Well....no. On several counts:
Nobody claims the geth are completely innocent and not a threat. We claim that the geth are not any more or less of a threat than any organic or synthetic faction. They have, of course, their interests and perhaps their flaws, but in that they're not different from everyone else. We have proven that they are - in terms of storytelling - by the fact that they are open to diplomatic solutions and that we can make peace with them after a state of war has existed for some time, that we can interact with them and understand them just as much - or as little - as any other faction.
The geth are no more innocent than anyone else, but that's not the point. The point is: They are no more warlike than anyone else and less than many other factions. They are not more genocidal than anyone else. They can be reasoned with, and actually better reasoned with than many other factions. In everything and at every time after ME1, they are presented as beings with whom co-existence is possible, and if co-existence is not easy to come by at times, well, in that, too, they're not so different from everyone else.
Nothing at all in the presentation of the geth gives us any hint that they are more of a potential threat than than other factions, and even less that their nature makes them more of a threat. So, based on almost everything we see in the trilogy, the Catalyst's claims that a radical solution like the Reapers (or Synthesis) is required to prevent synthetics from becoming a genocidal threat to all organics, is pure ideological BS.
And that you defend it, that just shows me how easily people fall for ideological BS. For completeness sake: I am actually aware of a way how synthetics could become such a threat, but nothing of the prerequisites for such a scenario is mentioned or even hinted at anywhere in the trilogy. *I* can make up a logic that would support the Catalyst, but ME3's lead writer and its project lead didn't, they served us nothing but unsupported and unexplained claims, as if the Catalyst's proclamations had to be believed just because it was presented as this universe's god analogue. Well, not with me. I retain my critical capacities in the face of pretenders to divinity (or even the real thing, if such exists), and I would rather prefer the message that this is a good thing. Furthermore, even if I make a decision in the end based on a rationale I made up in order to make the story retain at least some modicum of plausibility, the fact remains that it remains completely unsupported by anything that was on-screen in the trilogy.
or maybe to even make a choice is a mistake, based on what the game has been telling you?
or maybe to even make a choice is a mistake, based on what the game has been telling you?
I guess we could've left the game and taken a hammer to our game disks? I can't say I wasn't close to that at times, but in the end I chose to make up a rationale that worked for me rather than leave this story unfinished. The lesser of the evils in terms of story reception, so to say. In-world, there was no such option in the OE, and in the EC it meant that the cycle goes on, and by Word of God, the next cycle used the Crucible, so here's the clear message: the RGB outcomes are all that there is in the end.
The story isn't technically unfinished. After making your final choice, you resolve the central conflict with the Reapers in one way or another.
It's just not finished in a way that feels satisfying to you. After all, you were close to taking a hammer to your game disks.
Well....no. On several counts:
Nobody claims the geth are completely innocent and not a threat. We claim that the geth are not any more or less of a threat than any organic or synthetic faction. They have, of course, their interests and perhaps their flaws, but in that they're not different from everyone else. We have proven that they are - in terms of storytelling - by the fact that they are open to diplomatic solutions and that we can make peace with them after a state of war has existed for some time, that we can interact with them and understand them just as much - or as little - as any other faction.
The geth are no more innocent than anyone else, but that's not the point. The point is: They are no more warlike than anyone else and less than many other factions. They are not more genocidal than anyone else. They can be reasoned with, and actually better reasoned with than many other factions. In everything and at every time after ME1, they are presented as beings with whom co-existence is possible, and if co-existence is not easy to come by at times, well, in that, too, they're not so different from everyone else.
Nothing at all in the presentation of the geth gives us any hint that they are more of a potential threat than other factions, and even less that their nature makes them more of a threat. So, given that they are the only synthetic faction in the MEU other than the Reapers, and based on almost everything we see in the trilogy, the Catalyst's claims that a radical solution like the Reapers (or Synthesis) is required to prevent synthetics from becoming a genocidal threat to all organics, is pure ideological BS.
And that you defend it, that just shows me how easily people fall for ideological BS. For completeness sake: I am actually aware of a way how synthetics could become such a threat, but nothing of the prerequisites for such a scenario is mentioned or even hinted at anywhere in the trilogy. *I* can make up a logic that would support the Catalyst, but ME3's lead writer and its project lead didn't, they served us nothing but unsupported and unexplained claims, as if the Catalyst's proclamations had to be believed just because it was presented as this universe's god analogue. Well, not with me. I retain my critical capacities in the face of pretenders to divinity (or even the real thing, if such exists), and I would rather prefer the message that this is a good thing. Furthermore, even if I make a decision in the end based on a rationale I made up in order to make the story retain at least some modicum of plausibility, the fact remains that it remains completely unsupported by anything that was on-screen in the trilogy.
Claims they are no more genocidal then any other race. Ignores how they killed enough Quarians during the Morning War many of which would be civilians at the rate that would make a Krogan orgasm from just the thought of it.
Claims they are no more ware like then anyone else. Ignores how they went far beyond what was needed to protect themselves in the Morning War.
Claims they can be reasoned with. Ignores how they treated any organic ship entering their territory as target practice for 300 years.
See the funny thing is you and others like you seem to miss rather key factors in the story telling that lead the Geth to the position they are in post Rannoch War.
To start with they indiscriminately killed any organic in their space for 300 years. Only after the events of ME1 do they break that trend. Sending a single unit to find Shepard to trade data with it about how he killed the Reaper. Not the Alliance, not the Council, not the Asari/Salarians/Turians, and certainly not the Quarians. Once it lost Shepard it abandoned that and went about another problem.
Even after Legion's time with Shepard rather then attempting to make contact with other races they continue the act of being completely isolated. No attempt at all to show any willingness to work with anyone. They only agree to work with Shepard because they were stuck between a rock and a hard place. Controlled by the Reapers or Wiped out by the Quarians.
There is also a big factor to take into account these changes were all prompted by the existence of the Reapers. Without the Catalyst and by extension the Reapers events in the universe would play out differently. How differently is a debate all on it's own. But this is something you and others seem to forget/ignore when complaining about the Catalyst. It looks at the world without the Reapers and what would happen. You look at the world with the Reapers and what their existence and interference caused. You try to argue against a different view point using an entirely different set up then what is being talked about.
For some reason I find that post to be increasingly hilarious... 
How I hated that they did that! All the things they left frustratingly vague about the ending and that, THAT, was what they chose to lock down by Word of God. Over Twitter, no less!I guess we could've left the game and taken a hammer to our game disks? I can't say I wasn't close to that at times, but in the end I chose to make up a rationale that worked for me rather than leave this story unfinished. The lesser of the evils in terms of story reception, so to say. In-world, there was no such option in the OE, and in the EC it meant that the cycle goes on, and by Word of God, the next cycle used the Crucible, so here's the clear message: the RGB outcomes are all that there is in the end.
For some reason I find that post to be increasingly hilarious...
I'm sure a lot of people do.
You can not ignore their history. Their history of violence and aggression matches if not exceeds that of Krogan. But even after a literal massive war in the Krogan Rebellions and a sterility plague that pretty much shattered Krogan social structure into pieces they were and are still capable of interacting with each other. Oh they don't like each other true enough. But they never reached the point after one instance to kill on sight all the time every time. And individuals were capable of altering those trends. Hence the Romance Shepard can help bloom between a Krogan and an Asari.
The Geth were incapable of making that leap. They stayed indiscriminately aggressive for 300 years only altering when their own neck was on the line. This shows an in ability to even attempt to change unless their literal life is in the balance. This shows a great threat in what they are capable of. The Geth did not need to wipe out billions of Quarians reducing their numbers to mere millions. But they did anyways. The Geth did not need to create 300 years of indiscriminate killing of any non Geth ships who stray into their Territory. But they did.
No other race but the Krogan would act the way the Geth do when it comes to conflict. I like the Geth but I'm also not going to ignore their past actions and what it shows about them. Every sentient race would be willing to cooperate when their very existence is on the line. It is how they act when they are not under threat that really shows the true colors of a group.
Were it not for the Reapers no Turian, Asari or Salarian would ever even vaguely consider curing the Genophage. But due to the Reapers the Turians were willing to negotiate with the Krogans to cure it because they needed their help.
I'm sure a lot of people do.
You can not ignore their history. Their history of violence and aggression matches if not exceeds that of Krogan. But even after a literal massive war in the Krogan Rebellions and a sterility plague that pretty much shattered Krogan social structure into pieces they were and are still capable of interacting with each other. Oh they don't like each other true enough. But they never reached the point after one instance to kill on sight all the time every time. And individuals were capable of altering those trends. Hence the Romance Shepard can help bloom between a Krogan and an Asari.
No it doesn't
The geth deliberately held back from wiping out the quarians, then went into isolation for 300 years, while the krogan drove the rachni to extinction (or so they elieved) then proceeded to wage genocidal wars on the other Council races
In addition, the geth worked to repair the enviromental damage done to Rannoch and other quarian worlds damaged in teh Morning Wars, while the krogan deliberately destroyed at least three garden worlds in their rebellions, and nearly took out Palaven.
if anything, we are shown organics are more dangerous to organic life than synthetics
The Crucible by itself isn't powerful enough to defeat the Reapers. However, the Citadel, combined with the Crucible and the mass relays is.
I don't really know what a Mass Effect 3 game would look like without the Crucible, but I can picture in my mind the Reapers defeating you at every turn if you didn't build it.
Kind of like what happened with the Protheans. They did not build or deploy the Crucible because they couldn't find or figure out what the Catalyst was, and they lost the war. The Reapers harvested and enslaved them. Then they went back to dark space to await the next harvest.
It was kind of foreshadowed by the Illusive Man in Mass Effect 2 that your best chance against the Reapers is to use their own technology against them. And that's exactly what you do at the end.
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