3578 réponses à ce sujet

[Dantriges]

Why? We don´t pursue total annihilation of enemies, why should machines? Do we assume that AI will always behave binary? What if going to war and brokering peace, then having to do repeat it 500 years later is less resource intensive, than kill all organics now?

[gothpunkboy89]

Where is this "exponential progress" shown in the game? I understand that it is a common concept in science fiction but I'm asking how someone not familiar with the trope would play Mass Effect and come to that conclusion.

 

They kind of set it up in ME 1 how it is possible. The whole point of the Geth Quarian Conflict is based around the Geth developing and advancing much faster then the Quarian's thought would happen.

 

But you don't even need to know science fiction tropes to understand this concept. Simply being alive and paying attention to tech developments is more then enough. In my life time 27 years the leap in technology has been staggering. Cell phones going from large bulky items into literal hand held computers that contain more processing power then entire computer systems back then.

 

Data being measured in B and KB now measured in GB and TB.

 

Games going from 8bit pixels to 60 fps in 1080p.

 

Technology has advanced in my life time far more then we have advanced on a biological level. To me it would be quite logical that given that rate of development something that is made of technology is is capable of self improvement due to the much higher rates it can think and react at would speed up it's development far beyond what we are capable of.

[Natureguy85]

Man, I love Mass Effect 2 but when looking at it as a part of a trilogy, it does not seem to have done much contribution to the series as a whole and thinking about it, it may have actually sabotaged it in some ways including by not serving properly, in my opinion, as the bridge between the beginning and the end of the trilogy. I felt Mass Effect 2 was filler. Enjoyable filler, mind you, but filler nonetheless.
 

 

Yeah, that's pretty much it. ME2 is still a good game. It was fun to play and the characters are awesome. But he main plot sucked and didn't advance the series.

 

 

 

You are correct about the first and use it to in defense for your argument which is a bit different.

Do sentient Geth want to ensure their own future? Yes. Does this necessarily mean that it will end in conflict with Quarians? No. Geth may be individuals but they are synthetic. Nothing suggests that they would refuse performing manual labour for the quarians if asked nicely. They feel no physical pain, they don't get tired. Even If they whine about being unequally treated then pay them some credits and everything will be fine. Humans are slaving away for money and don't overthrow their capitalist overlords.

 

Well, I don't think it needs to be spelled out why slavery is bad... But some people here would rather if sapient beings endured it no matter what, I see. And also endured abuse and getting slaughtered.

 

No, but it doesn't really apply to the machines. Geth don't know they were being used as slaves. Geth Prime's dialogue with Tali/Raan suggests they don't care about that. They are willing to rebuild Rannoch and help with their immune systems and don't ask for anything in return.

 

Ugh, please no BS about working or capitalism being slavery. I don't have the patience for real world nonsense right now. Anyway, I'm not so sure the Geth won't be ok with going right back to being servants as long as they can exist and be what they want. Vanilka is right about them wanting their own future, but they preserve the Quarian worlds and structures, and not only do they not ask anything in return for their help, they really don't benefit from the relationship in any concrete way. Tali was right that the Geth have no use for the Quarians, which is what makes their desire for peace more compelling. Tali said it because it made Saren's Geth's aggression make sense to her.

 

 

 

Let me ask you this question. Why didn't the galaxy unite to wipe out the Geth? They nearly wiped out the Quarian race and as far as any non Geth knew they only survived because they escaped. The only thing that even vaugly makes sense is the rest of the galaxy (Turians, Asari, Salarians, Elcor, Volus) were afraid of confrontation with the Geth. Which is why even after they sent ambassadors to the Geth who were killed they did nothing. And actually made a rule to prevent Quarians from antagonizing the Geth for some sort of reward. Probably free travel in Council Space or something like that.

 

That's an easy one. The Council are weak do-nothings. This is repeated with Shepard and the Reapers.

 

 

 

I wasn't responding to you. 

 

 

Well they didn't find the plans for the Crucible until ME3. 

 

Your personal expectations (Crucible plans revealed in ME2 sometime), as opposed to what happened (Crucible plans revealed in ME3).

 

Let's not forget most people including the Council believed the Reapers were a myth. Even after Sovereign attacked the Citadel in the first game, they still didn't believe the threat was real. So they didn't plan for a way to stop them until they entered the galaxy in force when ME3 started. Then it was too late.

 

That's why they didn't work to find a way to stop the Reapers earlier. 

 

But I was responding to you. Why do you list those events like I don't know them? Those are precisely the problems with the story. My point is that those were mistakes. Mass Effect 2 should have been about discovering more about the Reapers and a way to stop them, not nothing. And it would have been cool to keep up that idea that Shepard is a lone voice in the wilderness, going off on his own when he doesn't get help. Out of options, he could turn to the Shadow Broker and even Cerberus to get information and leads. Instead Shepard died for no reason, worked for Cerberus with barely an objection, fought pointless bug-men, and learned nothing of value about the Reapers.

 

 

 

 

But that's precisely the point. It doesn't matter if the synthetics are the instigators. The nature of organics is that the organics are going to mess up some day (we don't even need this to be proven, it's just common sense) and trigger another war.

 

The synthetics don't need to be the instigators. Even if in reaction to offenses against the synthetics, conflict will occur, and since synthetics exponentially progress, each future conflict approaches total annihilation of organics.

 

The Catalyst should have emphasized that then instead of just saying "conflict happens." Putting the blame on Organics would have been a bit more interesting.

 

 

 

They kind of set it up in ME 1 how it is possible. The whole point of the Geth Quarian Conflict is based around the Geth developing and advancing much faster then the Quarian's thought would happen.

 

But you don't even need to know science fiction tropes to understand this concept. Simply being alive and paying attention to tech developments is more then enough. In my life time 27 years the leap in technology has been staggering. Cell phones going from large bulky items into literal hand held computers that contain more processing power then entire computer systems back then.

 

Data being measured in B and KB now measured in GB and TB.

 

Games going from 8bit pixels to 60 fps in 1080p.

 

Technology has advanced in my life time far more then we have advanced on a biological level. To me it would be quite logical that given that rate of development something that is made of technology is is capable of self improvement due to the much higher rates it can think and react at would speed up it's development far beyond what we are capable of.

 

You're right on the first point but that was due to the Quarians' constant tweaking, not due to natural advancement of the Geth on their own.

 

As to the rest, it doesn't necessarily matter how things operate in the real world. The story has to demonstrate something a major plot point hinges on.

[rossler]

But I was responding to you. 

 

My original post was in response to BloodyMares. I wasn't addressing you in that particular post. 

[Natureguy85]

My original post was in response to BloodyMares. I wasn't addressing you in that particular post. 

 

I know, but I responded to something you said. Since "you need it spelled out for you", I don't care that what I quoted was in response to him.

[Vanilka]

Ugh, please no BS about working or capitalism being slavery. I don't have the patience for real world nonsense right now. Anyway, I'm not so sure the Geth won't be ok with going right back to being servants as long as they can exist and be what they want. Vanilka is right about them wanting their own future, but they preserve the Quarian worlds and structures, and not only do they not ask anything in return for their help, they really don't benefit from the relationship in any concrete way. Tali was right that the Geth have no use for the Quarians, which is what makes their desire for peace more compelling. Tali said it because it made Saren's Geth's aggression make sense to her.

What are you even talking about? When somebody has no legal rights and is made to work for no pay and without consideration for their well-being, that is slavery. That's what the geth would be if the quarians just kept them as servants despite them gaining sentience, particularly because the geth turn out to be intelligent beings not completely unlike organics. (Even Tali points that out in ME1.) That's what I was getting at. Sure, I'm not saying the geth think completely like human beings or require the same freedoms and rewards, but with time it might be more and more difficult to persuade an intelligent race to do just what you want 24/7. Nobody said a single word about capitalism being slavery and I have no idea where the heck that even came from. It sure didn't come from my posts.

[Natureguy85]

What are you even talking about? When somebody has no legal rights and is made to work for no pay and without consideration for their well-being, that is slavery. That's what the geth would be if the quarians just kept them as servants despite them gaining sentience, particularly because the geth turn out to be intelligent beings not completely unlike organics. (Even Tali points that out in ME1.) That's what I was getting at. Sure, I'm not saying the geth think completely like human beings or require the same freedoms and rewards, but with time it might be more and more difficult to persuade an intelligent race to do just what you want 24/7. Nobody said a single word about capitalism being slavery and I have no idea where the heck that even came from.

 

It was this hopefully tongue in cheek comment:

 

 

Even If they whine about being unequally treated then pay them some credits and everything will be fine. Humans are slaving away for money and don't overthrow their capitalist overlords.

 

 

 

I have been talking to people who really do equate a job with slavery and it hurts my brain.

[Vanilka]

It was this hopefully tongue in cheek comment:

 

I have been talking to people who really do equate a job with slavery and it hurts my brain.

 

Fair enough. My apologies then. (It's really hard to tell from just text sometimes what's supposed to be humorous and what's serious.) I was just unhappy with how victims have basically never endured enough to be considered victims for some here, it would seem. I know the geth are synthetic life forms and thus different, but hell that's just depressing. It would've been interesting and perhaps more complicated if they had stuck with Chris L'Etoile's ideas on how the geth should have been handled, but they forced this Number Five business in (I've heard Mr L'Etoile disagreed.) and that just makes the right and wrong kind of clear here.

 

As for the latter, yeeaah, I'm not touching that, lol. However I might feel about certain aspects of this issue, just like about any other socioeconomic constructs, I'm definitely not one of those who'd make that comparison. Luckily, language is nice enough to be able to precisely describe what we don't like without going there.

[Vanilka]

I know, but I responded to something you said. Since "you need it spelled out for you", I don't care that what I quoted was in response to him.

 

That's funny. People I've never addressed pick up random parts of my posts, even just isolated sentences or words, all the time. I didn't know that's a no-no. Hear it, guys? It's a no-no!

 

Either way, I should probably have some breakfast...

 

 

I knew I shouldn't have come here before I did that.

[Natureguy85]

Fair enough. My apologies then. (It's really hard to tell from just text sometimes what's supposed to be humorous and what's serious.) I was just unhappy with how victims have basically never endured enough to be considered victims for some here, it would seem. I know the geth are synthetic life forms and thus different, but hell that's just depressing. It would've been interesting and perhaps more complicated if they had stuck with Chris L'Etoile's ideas on how the geth should have been handled, but they forced this Number Five business in (I've heard Mr L'Etoile disagreed.) and that just makes the right and wrong kind of clear here.

 

As for the latter, yeeaah, I'm not touching that, lol. However I might feel about certain aspects of this issue, just like about other socioeconomic constructs, I'm definitely not one of those who'd make that comparison. Luckily, language is nice enough to be able to precisely describe what we don't like without going there.

 

Well it was BloodyMares comment not yours, but I wanted to add to the topic you two were discussing. Anyway, I agree on the Geth but the problem was that we never got to really see groups of Synthetics or understand Geth society. I knew the series was trying to tell me that Synthetics were indeed life, even if it allowed me to make Shepard disagree. However, it didn't sell the idea to me very well and I mostly saw Legion and EDI as special and cared about them in particular rather than Synthetics generally. This is particularly easy to have happen in a character focused series. ME2 allowed me to go to Tuchanka and had multiple other references to the Genophage and how it affected Krogan to help me care about it.

[BloodyMares]

Ugh, please no BS about working or capitalism being slavery. I don't have the patience for real world nonsense right now.

 

I got carried away, it happens sometimes. I was just trying to point out that synthetic logic is not the same as organic and there are no guarantees that they would rebel against performing hard manual work (they propose it to quarians themselves if you make peace). At least if they don't want to work, I'm sure they would help quarians to think of some other means of automation.

[Natureguy85]

I got carried away, I acknowledge that. I was just trying to point out that synthetic logic is not the same as organic and there are no guarantees that they would rebel against performing hard manual work (they propose it to quarians themselves if you make peace). At least if they don't want to work, I'm sure they would help quarians to think of some other means of automation.

 

I like the idea that they would do this:

 

Hey, then we could ask the Catalyst if Synthetics created by other Synthetics will rise up against their Synthetic creators.

[BloodyMares]

Hey, then we could ask the Catalyst if Synthetics created by other Synthetics will rise up against their Synthetic creators.

Well, Reapers didn't rebel against the Catalyst...and they kinda fall into that category.

[Natureguy85]

Well, Reapers didn't rebel against the Catalyst...and they kinda fall into that category.

 

Ah, but the Reapers are Cyborgs. They have organic goop which somehow is still alive and contains the "essence" of a species. You know, all they had to do was drop that BS and have the Collectors actually upload the captured colonists' brains into a supercomputer and it would have been a lot better and been a lot more believable.

[BloodyMares]

Ah, but the Reapers are Cyborgs. They have organic goop which somehow is still alive and contains the "essence" of a species.

Does it matter though? They don't exactly show any organic behavior. With exception of fanboy Harby. 

[Natureguy85]

Does it matter though? They don't exactly show any organic behavior. With exception of fanboy Harby. 

 

Oops, I posted that comment before it was done and updated it.

 

It matters in that the Reapers are no longer purely Synthetic, which could be used to argue that they are not an example of the problem they claim to be solving, though the Catalyst itself would be. Also, they are a primitive version of whatever the hell Synthesis is supposed to be.

[BloodyMares]

Ah, but the Reapers are Cyborgs. They have organic goop which somehow is still alive and contains the "essence" of a species. You know, all they had to do was drop that BS and have the Collectors actually upload the captured colonists' brains into a supercomputer and it would have been a lot better and been a lot more believable.

Kind of like the transhumanist idea of digital immortality? Yeah I guess. Still disturbing though. Assassin's Creed did that with Subject 16 and this guy's digital personality went nuts in the computer.

[Natureguy85]

Kind of like the transhumanist idea of digital immortality? Yeah I guess. Still disturbing though. Assassin's Creed did that with Subject 16 and this guy's digital personality went nuts in the computer.

Definitely still disturbing, but that was the point. It will be less strange and out of place with what came before.

[BloodyMares]

Definitely still disturbing, but that was the point. It will be less strange and out of place with what came before.

Yes, it makes more sense although I hardly see it fitting into the Mass Effect setting. More like Deus Ex story with transhumanism and all that. But then again the whole ending sequence was a Deus Ex rip-off so I guess it doesn't matter ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[rossler]

I know, but I responded to something you said. Since "you need it spelled out for you", I don't care that what I quoted was in response to him.

 

You don't need to be condescending to me. There's no need for your "you need it spelled out for you" comment.  I'll gladly take the rest into consideration though. 

[Natureguy85]

You don't need to be condescending to me. There's no need for your "you need it spelled out for you" comment.  I'll gladly take the rest into consideration though. 

 

Apparently you also missed that it was in quotes because that is your retort whenever someone criticizes the game for lack of clarity.

[gothpunkboy89]

 

I have been talking to people who really do equate a job with slavery and it hurts my brain.

 

They aren't far off on that point.

 

People don't work because they want to they work because they half to.

 

The rules changed but the game stays the same.

[BloodyMares]

They aren't far off on that point.

 

People don't work because they want to they work because they half to.

 

The rules changed but the game stays the same.

It's better to discuss elsewhere though.

[rossler]

Apparently you also missed that it was in quotes because that is your retort whenever someone criticizes the game for lack of clarity.

 

Lack of clarity? The Extended Cut was meant to clear things up for you if you wanted more clarity. 

 

That's all the clarity they intended to provide regarding the ending. If you needed more, you'll have to figure some things out yourself. 

[themikefest]

Isn't that what Bioware wanted? Speculation for everyone?

 

Even with the extended cut, there's still questions left unanswered. Like I posted. Speculation for everyone.