3528 réponses à ce sujet

[Natureguy85]

Because if the Catalyst could control it then it is entirely possible organics living on it could tap into it and find out about it. The Catalyst can pretend to be a simple maintenance program to hid it self if ever found out. It can't hide programs that would open close and activate the relay part.

 

I get the feeling that your idea of a good hiding place during hide and seek is standing on a hill or wrapping your arms around a tree and thinking you are invisible.

 

How? The people on the Citadel don't know the Relay function exists. They don't know the Catalyst exists. What are they tapping into and finding? How is that control detectable? Explain your assertion. I want the "how" and you keep repeating the "what."

[gothpunkboy89]

It's so brilliant that it failed and they had to go "on foot".   
 

I appreciate the hilarity of the fact that a super advanced machine race completely and utterly failed to meet its goals despite their OS sitting on the Citadel.

 

LOL! I don't have to explain the irony in that, do I?
 

Who said anything about the VI? I judge from the hilarious fact the Reapers had to go "on foot".
 

And you still haven't given any proof of this made up statement, still haven't said how making sure your plan works as supposed to is organic. Since Sovereign was ready to expose itself and attack the Citadel directly in order to open the relay, it seems that it was very much time for them to do so. But nope, the brilliant and amazing Catalyst was completely and utterly outplayed by primitives, apparently. 
 

The only person trying to push this notion and put words into people's mouth here is you.
 

The Citadel and the Catalyst's access to it has been discussed into great detail. There's exactly zero need to rehash the same discussion.
 

That doesn't explain why its backup plan sucked balls and why it was so easy to outplay it.
 

 

I have explained two times that trust isn't necessarily about lies and deceit, but since you seem to love going that way, I humoured you. Twice. However, now I'm done. You wanted my opinion, you've got it. The fact that you like to draw ridiculous assumptions to drag the argument ad absurdum doesn't concern me.

 

Have you ever considered that maybe it's because people either disagree with you or what you say makes little sense?

 

Where have ever I complained about old folks "getting love"? I don't give a damn. Let them invite all the neighbours if they want to. I complained about the stupid death scenario used for ridiculous reasons. This is a topic completely irrelevant and it's pointless to bring it up in this context.

 

On foot means nothing to the Reapers. So don't see the point of that.

 

The goal is finding an alternative to the Reapers. Sovereign it self was only stopped by plot devices that make no sense. In fact the only way Sovereign's destruction actually makes any sort of logical sense is the Catalyst purposefully shorted out Sovereign. I mean seriously a single Reaper Destroyer controls hundreds of Reaper troops during ME 3 and killing all of them have no effect. Yet the destruction of one some how shorts out Sovereign allowing those frigates which are not a threat to a Reaper to blow it to hell. 

 

Yes please do explain the irony. Putting all the eggs in one basket is never a good idea. It is after all why people back up their computer data. In case something happens they can still retrieve it. Citadel is the primary ingress and Alpha Relay is secondary ingress. Though I am rather curious how this rather asinine logic of having a back up plan some how means the whole set up is poorly planned or poorly executed.

 

VI claimed they were trapped in dark space. You said ME 2 retconed it to allow them to enter the galaxy. To claim retcon you would have to take the few lines from the Prothean VI as 100% unchangeable fact.  And given Reapers can travel what was it 10x faster then alliance ships, doesn't need to refuel, do not need to sleep. I don't see how on foot is some great disadvantage.

 

You clearly have not been paying attention to what I post have you? And you wonder why I got to such extreme examples to ensure what I'm saying is gotten across. You again apply egotistical actions to a being that lacks it. Sovereign had a job to do. It was doing it when plot devices got in the way and killed him. Some how you apply this to mean the Catalyst was out witted. Which ignores the fact that they have been doing this same song and dance for millions of years. This wasn't the second harvest. This would be closer to the 800th harvest.

 

You claim I'm putting words in people's mouths yet your own posts show other wise. You create an incompetent mentality and force the Catalyst into it. Hence your reply right above this does it's job of painting it as a moron. So pot called the kettle black.

 

Again though you ignore/ try to divert from what I am saying. The Catalyst is a part of the Citadel for sure. But we are never given any sort of vague hint at how much it actually controls at any given time. The complains are based around head cannon so they can complain about something. The only slightly vague hint at any control is during the control ending when the arms close. Which also ignores the keepers are there and they could have closed it up since the control option doesn't cause destruction the way the destroy option does.

 

How did the back up plain fail? Did you not see the Reaper invasion during ME 3? It was kind of the whole point of the game.

 

It is all about lies and deceit. The only reason to not take what the Catalyst says at face value is if you think it is lying to you.Even though it has no reason to lie to you at all besides what ever reason you create in your own head. Which is why I want to see what you draw the line about lying. You clearly don't seem to mind or care about white lies. Like someone telling you that you look good in that outfit even though you look like an over stuff sausage about to burst from it.  You have no problem accepting when friends or love ones tell you white lies all the time. Yet you automatically asume the Catalyst despite absolutely no proof is a lying sack of poo trying to device you.

 

It is an interesting contradiction that only develops because you create your own concept of what the Catalyst is then force it into that concept regardless of how much or in this case how little data backs up your claim. You then use that concept you created and forced the Catalyst into despite no proof as reason.

[gothpunkboy89]

How? The people on the Citadel don't know the Relay function exists. They don't know the Catalyst exists. What are they tapping into and finding? How is that control detectable? Explain your assertion. I want the "how" and you keep repeating the "what."

 

 

Because any group on the Citadel would inevitably explore to try and fully understand it. That would mean learning all they could about all the systems they could find. If they came across the Catalyst it could pretend to be a simple maintenance program due to it being intelligent. If they found the program that activated the Relay it would give away everything they were attempting to hide.  This would cause questions and inquires that would lead to events they wouldn't want to happen. This would require them jumping the gun on the harvest to eliminate the race the found it.

 

 

 

Burying it as a stand alone system that can only be accessed though very very very specific ways that only a Reaper would have access to would prevent it from being found accidentally. Just like the Catalyst is prevented from being found.

 

No one has any proof the Catalyst can control anything beyond them wanting it to. Last I checked most people here don't accept head cannon from people who they disagree with so why is head cannon about Catalyst suddenly allowed and acceptable?

[Ithurael]

Don't the keepers maintain and control all citadel functions? Like arms opening/closing, the dark space relay, and other operations?

[BloodyMares]

Don't the keepers maintain and control all citadel functions? Like arms opening/closing, the dark space relay, and other operations?

Yes, but these functions are also accessible from the master control unit (in ME1) or can be overriden by the Catalyst (ME3 Control ending).

[kal_reegar]

Yes, but these functions are also accessible from the master control unit (in ME1) or can be overriden by the Catalyst (ME3 Control ending).

 

but in both cases the catalyst has nothing to do (directly) with these functions... (it's Sovering/Saren/Shepard/Sheparlyst acting)

[Ithurael]

Yes, but the functions are also accessible from the master control unit (in ME1) or if you're the Catalyst (ME3 Control ending).

 

Well yes, but as stated by Vigil and the codex the keepers (who maintain and control the Citadel) respond to the Citadel now and ONLY the Citadel.

 

And...we happen to know that the Citadel is the Catalyst, which embodies the collective consciousness of all reapers, and at the time of ME1 had no other way to enact it's solution of harvest the galaxy.

 

From what we have seen (control ending), heard (vigil) and read (codex) the keepers respond to the citadel which is the catalyst and the catalyst could have enabled them to open the arms in ME1 subverting the plot of ME1,2 and thus 3 since it had no way of enacting its solution. We have seen - regarding the Catalysts focus on the solution - that it only will take action when it cannot enact its solution. Thus, when the crucible provides new possible solutions and it couldn't enact those solutions, it brings Shepard up.

 

As for people trying to find the catalyst if it does anything, most would be wiped out once Sovereign opens the relay (when the catalyst lets it in) and the rest could suspect something, but access to the citadel core is impossible.

 

"No one has discovered the source of new keepers, but some hypothesize they are genetic constructs: biological androids created somewhere deep in the inaccessible core of the Citadel itself"

 

EDIT: Basically, when it comes down to it, this is a major plot hole, but it is not to be unexpected. Just turn the brain off and roll with it.

[Vanilka]

On foot means nothing to the Reapers. So don't see the point of that.

That's why it's in quotation marks.

 

The goal is finding an alternative to the Reapers. Sovereign it self was only stopped by plot devices that make no sense. In fact the only way Sovereign's destruction actually makes any sort of logical sense is the Catalyst purposefully shorted out Sovereign. I mean seriously a single Reaper Destroyer controls hundreds of Reaper troops during ME 3 and killing all of them have no effect. Yet the destruction of one some how shorts out Sovereign allowing those frigates which are not a threat to a Reaper to blow it to hell.

Has nothing to do with what we talked about.
 

Yes please do explain the irony. Putting all the eggs in one basket is never a good idea. It is after all why people back up their computer data. In case something happens they can still retrieve it. Citadel is the primary ingress and Alpha Relay is secondary ingress. Though I am rather curious how this rather asinine logic of having a back up plan some how means the whole set up is poorly planned or poorly executed.

You keep defending the Catalyst's absurd failure to do anything throughout the franchise, locking itself out of the Citadel and rendering itself completely useless in an emergency, being defenceless against primitives meddling in its own toybox, even after Sovereign's screw up, and now you start talking about the usefulness of backups? That's the irony. The Reapers end up travelling for at least two years to be able to do anything at all. Organics slammed the main door in their face and they were unable to do anything about it. That was pretty hilarious without the existence of the Catalyst already. With the Catalyst, it is absurd.
 

VI claimed they were trapped in dark space. You said ME 2 retconed it to allow them to enter the galaxy. To claim retcon you would have to take the few lines from the Prothean VI as 100% unchangeable fact.  And given Reapers can travel what was it 10x faster then alliance ships, doesn't need to refuel, do not need to sleep. I don't see how on foot is some great disadvantage.

You mean, in case of a total machine apocalypse that the Catalyst assumes that might happen? I'd say that years of travelling matter.
 

You clearly have not been paying attention to what I post have you? And you wonder why I got to such extreme examples to ensure what I'm saying is gotten across. You again apply egotistical actions to a being that lacks it.

Yeah, sure, keep saying that. One day it might become true. You know, if you say it really hard.
 

Sovereign had a job to do. It was doing it when plot devices got in the way and killed him. Some how you apply this to mean the Catalyst was out witted. Which ignores the fact that they have been doing this same song and dance for millions of years. This wasn't the second harvest. This would be closer to the 800th harvest.

That doesn't present any counter argument. "They have been doing this for a long time." Like, yeah, that's what we're told. Their plan to open the relay failed, either way, when it could've easily succeeded with some simple precautions or if the AI was actually worth any of its name. The introduction of the Catalyst in the light of ME1 events makes it completely useless when something goes to hell. It basically didn't do a thing besides claiming that it tried to solve the issue. Oh, and fiddling with some parts of the Citadel towards the end. Huge achievement.
 

You claim I'm putting words in people's mouths yet your own posts show other wise. You create an incompetent mentality and force the Catalyst into it. Hence your reply right above this does it's job of painting it as a moron. So pot called the kettle black.

Being useless isn't restricted to organics, you know? 
 
"Pot calling the kettle black," means "something you say that means people should not criticize someone else for a fault that they have themselves." So do you think it's dumb or not? Make up your mind.
 

Again though you ignore/ try to divert from what I am saying. The Catalyst is a part of the Citadel for sure. But we are never given any sort of vague hint at how much it actually controls at any given time. The complains are based around head cannon so they can complain about something. The only slightly vague hint at any control is during the control ending when the arms close. Which also ignores the keepers are there and they could have closed it up since the control option doesn't cause destruction the way the destroy option does.

 
Yes, and even showing the arms closing is enough. The fact the platform with Shepard is lifted is enough. The fact that the platforms leading to the choices are lifted is enough. Most importantly, the fact that it'd lock itself from all the hardware in its position and with its role renders it and its plans more prone to failure.
 

How did the back up plain fail? Did you not see the Reaper invasion during ME 3? It was kind of the whole point of the game.

Yeah, they had to wait over two years for that. Good luck with that in an emergency scenario like, you know, the one they try to prevent. But, hey, we all know that never happens anyway, so there's no actual worry, I guess.
 

1) It is all about lies and deceit. The only reason to not take what the Catalyst says at face value is if you think it is lying to you.Even though it has no reason to lie to you at all besides what ever reason you create in your own head. Which is why I want to see what you draw the line about lying. You clearly don't seem to mind or care about white lies. Like someone telling you that you look good in that outfit even though you look like an over stuff sausage about to burst from it.  You have no problem accepting when friends or love ones tell you white lies all the time. Yet you automatically asume the Catalyst despite absolutely no proof is a lying sack of poo trying to device you.

2) It is an interesting contradiction that only develops because you create your own concept of what the Catalyst is then force it into that concept regardless of how much or in this case how little data backs up your claim. You then use that concept you created and forced the Catalyst into despite no proof as reason.

1) Who said I didn't care? But I see you're just comfortable making stuff up. You keep insisting that it's all about lying, but it's not and I have explicitly stated so and I have explicitly stated why something like the Catalyst would be more complicated than that, more than once. But, sure, keep pushing your assumptions at me.
 
2) You mean, just like you're doing right now?

[BloodyMares]

but in both cases the catalyst has nothing to do with these functions... (it's Sovering/Saren/Shepard/Sheparlyst)

Which is the Catalyst with Shepard's personality. Nothing more. It's not an upgrade. Functions stay the same.

[Natureguy85]

Because any group on the Citadel would inevitably explore to try and fully understand it. That would mean learning all they could about all the systems they could find. If they came across the Catalyst it could pretend to be a simple maintenance program due to it being intelligent. If they found the program that activated the Relay it would give away everything they were attempting to hide.  This would cause questions and inquires that would lead to events they wouldn't want to happen. This would require them jumping the gun on the harvest to eliminate the race the found it.

 

 

 

Burying it as a stand alone system that can only be accessed though very very very specific ways that only a Reaper would have access to would prevent it from being found accidentally. Just like the Catalyst is prevented from being found.

 

No one has any proof the Catalyst can control anything beyond them wanting it to. Last I checked most people here don't accept head cannon from people who they disagree with so why is head cannon about Catalyst suddenly allowed and acceptable?

 

But groups on the Citadel don't explore it, at least not enough to find the Relay. We know by experience that this cycle doesn't, we know from Vigil that the Protheans didn't, and we know through meta-game knowledge that the other cycles didn't either. There's absolutely nothing about the Crucible being able to control the Relay that makes it more noticeable or conspicuous. You're just declaring it is so that you can make your otherwise baseless argument. 

 

This reading comprehension problem of yours is frustrating. I'm not arguing the Catalyst can or can't control the Relay based on any evidence. I'm saying that it should be able to because there is no good reason for it not to. The only reason it wouldn't be able to is specifically to make it not break the plot of the first game. However, since the game never addresses the issue, we don't even get a handwave. We just get ridiculous fan excuses.

[kal_reegar]

Which is the Catalyst with Shepard's personality. Nothing more. It's not an upgrade. Functions stay the same.

 

We cannot know.

The prothean scientist altered the reapers/catalyst - keepers connection, making their signal useless, incompatible, unrecognizable.

The sheparlyst is something new, something NOT IDENTICAL to the catalyst. So, the reapers/catalyst-keepers connection/signal might be working once again.

 

We all witness such a thing in all day life. Restart the PC and install the uptades -> some broken functionalities may star working again.

 

 

The thing that I don't understand is that we can accept (suspension of disbelief) giant killer cyborg jellyfish, the mass effect physical absurdity, shepard reborn like jesus after crashing on a planet like jesus, indocrination etc... but we cannot accept an AI having only mediate (indirect) control over the most complex functions of a space station?

[Dantriges]

As a certain someone would put, because it makes no sense and that we assign the Catalyst human logic.

 

The completely alien logic of an AI we can´t follow is a nice concept in theory, Person of Interest pulled it off in some believable fashion, but well in the back of their mind everyone knows that humans wrote the alien superlogic.

 

At least write them competently. They might be doing crazy stuff, but actually succeed instead of getting shot off a tower because you didn´t use the Alpha relay

 

When evaluating superbeings the borders between crazy competent, their logic makes them vulnerable, plain crazy, crazy incompetent and the writer is crazy for selling us that are rather slim.

[AlanC9]

This reading comprehension problem of yours is frustrating. I'm not arguing the Catalyst can or can't control the Relay based on any evidence. I'm saying that it should be able to because there is no good reason for it not to.

What about sabotage by Prothean scientists? We have zero data about what they actually did. Sure, in theory the keepers could repair any damage, but it's been an accepted fact of the setting since ME1 that the scientists were able to prevent the keepers from taking certain actions.

[Vanilka]

The thing that I don't understand is that we can accept (suspension of disbelief) giant killer cyborg jellyfish, the mass effect physical absurdity, shepard reborn like jesus after crashing on a planet like jesus, indocrination etc... but we cannot accept an AI having only mediate (indirect) control over the most complex functions of a space station?

 

Honestly? I think it's the trainwreck of an ending. People didn't really have issues when the Reapers were dumb enough to have to rely on an organic race of bug men to open the door for them and nobody seemed to take great issues with the fact that the relay was impossible to open from their side. (I do think it's pretty silly, though, but whatever. I'll live.) Another thing is that this and many other parts of the lore - like immortal mechanical cuttlefishes that came to kill us all, biotics which is basically magic, asari being able to screw your mind as well as your body, etc. - were introduced throughout the game and the franchise has rolled with them ever since. I think the ending pushed a lot of people to the point when they're unwilling to tolerate even little things because there's just so many. You know how they say that a straw broke camel's back...? I think that's the case here. It's a piece of the big pile. For some it's too much.

 

Most importantly, I wouldn't even get into this sort of argument again if I weren't pestered about it (I was originally talking to somebody else about something else, too!) because we've been through this already and I'm sincerely tired of this topic and I'm more than happy to agree to disagree, but I see some people still aren't done discussing it and throwing insults and nasty insinuations on top even though they already participated in the original conversation.   I just want to be done with it already. I'm not interested any more.

[kalikilic]

People didn't simply voice their dislike over the endings. They threw a tantrum for months until Bioware gave into their demands. They made three different colored cupcakes and mailed them off to Bioware. In addition to donating to charity in hopes that Bioware would change the ending. As well as flinging vitriol at the developers every chance they got. Even after releasing a free DLC to pacify these people it wasn't enough. The fans didn't want to compromise. They didn't want to meet Bioware halfway with the Extended Cut. They wanted everything to be fixed their way, or not at all. Why do you think people are still here talking about all the issues with the ending? They weren't fixed the way exactly the way they wanted it to be. 

 

Technically your decisions affected how the third and final chapter of the trilogy plays out. That's what they sold you and that's what you got. So your decisions weren't meaningless.

 

Even the final cutscene isn't as simple as A,B,C or red, green, blue. It might look that way if you don't think about it. Same goes for the Reaper logic. It may seem completely silly that organics create synthetics which will then destroy organics every 50,000 years. That is an oversimplification of what he was talking about though. Same goes for calling everything in the ending space magic. That would be the kind of interpretation from someone who doesn't think about the story and oversimplifies things to fuel hate. 

 

That is the sort of person who should rightly be ignored for not being constructive enough. 

Let me stop you at the very first paragraph. If bioware gave into demands, we wouldnt be here discussing this. So maybe you're the one who needs to think before they write a response instead of contradicting yourself. Indicating that fans have to meet the company halfway is acknowledging that the fans complaints are valid to an extent and the company was moving to rectify it to an extent. This is again contradicting yourself when saying that complaints about the ending are void, as you've said previously.

 

"Technicality" is not a premise upon which the previous games worked. See ME1 and maybe even 2. You mean to tell me that the climax of the trilogy was intended to work on a "technicality." this says to me that " well it doesnt rly, but it kinda does." which translates into a poor job of making your decisions matter the most when it was required the most which is how Hudson claimed to envision it.

 

"...we have the ability to build the endings out in a way that we don’t have to worry about eventually tying them back together somewhere. This story arc is coming to an end with this game. That means the endings can be a lot more different. At this point we’re taking into account so many decisions that you’ve made as a player and reflecting a lot of that stuff. It’s not even in any way like the traditional game endings, where you can say how many endings there are or whether you got ending A, B, or C."

 

It is apparent that you do not understand how much of a melded mess ME3 content was warped into after weekes left. The consequences are buried in how the DLC content was released. Which DLC were actual content created for release prior to the game and which were content that was ripped from the game? content that was suppose to bring to life what hudson was actually talking about above.

 

...

 

no ABC ending? ofc not. because hudson said we wouldnt get that. instead we receive the RGB endings. lets have a look at the ME3 endings below.

 

ta-da! can you count the number of endings there? it is a simply yes/no question. there is nothing complicated to it. This is what was sold to me. this is what I played. when you call it an "oversimplification" of the endings that's about as ambiguous and a poor excuse as one can get. and for you people who act so high-and-mighty towards the rest of us, you all have some of the lamest responses ever to questions and concerns.

 

"It may seem completely silly that organics create synthetics which will then destroy organics every 50,000 years"

 

 

the catalyst is an a$$pull. call it space magic. call it the river nile. call it the artic hole. the catalyst was introduced as a component for the crucible to work. what it was eventually turned into in the last 5 minutes of the game though, is beyond ridiculous. here's a description of it from the wikia.

 

"The Catalyst, also known as the Intelligence, is an ancient artificial intelligence that resides within the Citadel. It embodies the collective consciousness and memories of the Reapers, and thus countless ancient civilizations."

 

and here is what the catalyst tells you

 

 

i have a better name for it. Horrible retconned writing.

 

you high-and-mighty people always jump to the conclusion that when someone dislikes something and is trying to prove their point about it, they are fueling hate and channeling their life's disappointment and all sorts of other lovely stereotypes you ppl like to conjure. I honestly didnt know that having a different opinion was the equivalent of this. but whatever. you real MVP BSNers are the ones who can some how envision how it works rite? because it is you ppl who constantly accuse others of this.

 

but the real people who are guilty of not thinking at all are the ones who wrote that ending. had they not stripped out useful and well written content like the leviathans to be used as money-making DLC instead; had they made actual proper use of the one prothean they found alive. had they not rushed the game and instead taken the time to pass the endings through focus groups and quality control to see how it would have been received, we would not be having this discussion now. but no. all that mattered is that they collected their monies. pre-orders and otherwise. personally I find EA to blame here as well (being the "task masters" that they are. they're kinda one and the same now though so eh.) so I'm not making that mistake again with ME:A especially as we have such little to go on atm.

 

and they boldly stood by their decision. so haughty about their "artistic integrity."

 

that is what you people are choosing to defend.

 

[voteDC]

I imagine that the Council Chamber had been fairly well explored and they never found that a relay control unit was concealed there.

So it isn't outside the realm of possibility that people would fail to find the Catalyst if it had control over the relay built into the Citadel.

Messes up my theory that other races had encountered the Hologram Kid in his chamber but hey, we must adapt  .

[gothpunkboy89]

Yes, but these functions are also accessible from the master control unit (in ME1) or can be overriden by the Catalyst (ME3 Control ending).

 

How do you know it was the Catalyst that instigated the arm closing when Keepers, Reaper troops as well as survivors apparently still exist on there.

[gothpunkboy89]

I imagine that the Council Chamber had been fairly well explored and they never found that a relay control unit was concealed there.

So it isn't outside the realm of possibility that people would fail to find the Catalyst if it had control over the relay built into the Citadel.

Messes up my theory that other races had encountered the Hologram Kid in his chamber but hey, we must adapt  .

 

The control doesn't have to be in the Council Chambers. Setting that as a place to open and close the arms makes sense. But the possibility of it being found some were deeper in the Citadel is possible. Having it completely isolated from all other systems.

 

There isn't really much proof that Sovereign directly connected to the Mass Relay system. The only thing he had to actually access was the signal system that triggered the Keepers to activate the Relay. Which would also explain why despite the head start Sovy didn't manage to get the Relay part started up.

[Natureguy85]

We cannot know.

The prothean scientist altered the reapers/catalyst - keepers connection, making their signal useless, incompatible, unrecognizable.

The sheparlyst is something new, something NOT IDENTICAL to the catalyst. So, the reapers/catalyst-keepers connection/signal might be working once again.

 

We all witness such a thing in all day life. Restart the PC and install the uptades -> some broken functionalities may star working again.

 

You're really grasping. The Shepard-Catalyst is only different in personality. It's capabilities are the same because he is just a replacement. There is nothing to suggest otherwise.

 

 

 

 

The thing that I don't understand is that we can accept (suspension of disbelief) giant killer cyborg jellyfish, the mass effect physical absurdity, shepard reborn like jesus after crashing on a planet like jesus, indocrination etc... but we cannot accept an AI having only mediate (indirect) control over the most complex functions of a space station?

 

No offense, but this is a lack of understanding of fiction. The Mass Effect and Reapers are established early. They are the "price of entry" for even starting the story. They are "suppose" and "pretend" statements that one makes when starting a story. The Mass Effect is explained and the details are slowly revealed through world building. We see Sovereign on the video before Eden Prime and on Eden Prime before we ever find out what they are. Indoctrination is also slowly revealed over the course of the first game. The Catalyst on the other hand is jammed in at the end and you're trying to retroactively justify it. You're also being extremely intellectually dishonest claiming "the most complex functions of a space station." We're talking about an on/off switch here.

 

On the other hand, many didn't accept Shepard's death and rebirth. We saw how stupid and pointless it was. We eventually had to grit our teeth and get past it so the story could continue, but we acknowledged the problem.

 

 

 

What about sabotage by Prothean scientists? We have zero data about what they actually did. Sure, in theory the keepers could repair any damage, but it's been an accepted fact of the setting since ME1 that the scientists were able to prevent the keepers from taking certain actions.

 

I give you credit for using something established and this require you to make up too much BS. However, the point is that the Catalyst makes the Keepers, at least in relation to this one thing, an unnecessary step. Why send a signal to the Keepers rather than just send the "on" signal directly to the Relay function? At the very least it should be a redundant system, given how important this function is to the oh-so-important task of Reaping.

 

 

 

 

There isn't really much proof that Sovereign directly connected to the Mass Relay system. The only thing he had to actually access was the signal system that triggered the Keepers to activate the Relay. Which would also explain why despite the head start Sovy didn't manage to get the Relay part started up.

 

That's just something similar to "moving a the speed of plot". The amount of time it takes to open the Relay is longer than however long it takes Shepard to get there. It's the same reason that Shepard always catches Saren going into the Ilos bunker no matter how many side missions you do.

[BloodyMares]

How do you know it was the Catalyst that instigated the arm closing when Keepers, Reaper troops as well as survivors apparently still exist on there.

I don't. I don't care really because it's not that important. You name Keepers (which listen to the Citadel's a.k.a. Catalyst's commands) and Reaper troops (which listen to the Reapers's a.k.a. Catalyst's commands). All of them are servants to the Catalyst one way or the other. It doesn't matter to me if the Catalyst can control the Citadel by itself (as a software can control hardware) or through Keepers / Reaper troops. Either way, arms are closed by the Catalyst, directly or through intermediaries.

[Callidus Thorn]

Because any group on the Citadel would inevitably explore to try and fully understand it. That would mean learning all they could about all the systems they could find. If they came across the Catalyst it could pretend to be a simple maintenance program due to it being intelligent. If they found the program that activated the Relay it would give away everything they were attempting to hide.  This would cause questions and inquires that would lead to events they wouldn't want to happen. This would require them jumping the gun on the harvest to eliminate the race the found it.

 

 

 

Burying it as a stand alone system that can only be accessed though very very very specific ways that only a Reaper would have access to would prevent it from being found accidentally. Just like the Catalyst is prevented from being found.

 

Except...

 

The hardware for the Citadel Relay still exists on the Citadel. And isn't the chamber where Shepard meets the Catalyst as well? And ME3 suggests that the facilities for harvesting are found on the Citadel too. It seems to me that they're far more likely to be found than an AI hiding in a system entirely separate to the rest of the Citadel's functions. It wouldn't even need access to all the Citadel's functions, just control over the Citadel Relay to bring in the Reapers, the hardware that the organics never seem to find on the Citadel. Hardly a risk to give it control over something the organics can't find.

 

Not having the Cataylst be able to activate the Relay by itself would have to be the result of a decision by the Catalyst, a decision to intentionally introduce points of failure into the system, first by requiring a signal from an external source, and then by having the Keepers activate the mechanism. It's the equivalent of designing a mousetrap that isn't triggered by the mouse entering, but by a separate mechanism on the other side of the room.

 

If the Catalyst had control of that Relay, and could summon the Reapers at will, then the trap had no real point of failure. If the Catalyst were discovered it could lock down the Relays, call in the Reapers, and take everyone out before they can make any meaningful preparations. You'd have to destroy the Citadel to stop the Catalyst, and the Catalyst would be able to act long before it was in any danger.

 

There's no question of time management, no question of organic thinking, it's a simple matter of efficiency.

[kal_reegar]

You're really grasping. The Shepard-Catalyst is only different in personality. It's capabilities are the same because he is just a replacement. There is nothing to suggest otherwise.

 

 

I cannot prove it, of course, but don't you see that we have so little info that you can't disprove it either?

Let's say that the sheparlyst is merely the catalyst with shepard personality. So what? How can you be certain that it's the sheparyst direclty closing the citadel arms? And not one of its infinite new servants/tools? Is the citadel completely empty?

 

Also: how the control ending (the arms of the citadel closing) contradicts ME1? During the event of ME1, the connection between the Catalyst/Reapers >-> Keepers was somehow broken. Then, after Cerberus Base mission, the Reapers retake the Citadel. Maybe the re-activate the Catalyst/Reapers <-> Keepers connection? Maybe they undone/correct what the prothen scientist did? So now the Catalyst is again able to order the Keepers to close the arms (while during ME he couldn't). It doesn't seem so unlikely to me.

 

 

Also: you pretend to know how the citadel mass relay works. We never see it. We don't even know how mass relays in general work. Then you state that catalyst should have had direct control on the citadel relay, because this way he would have been more effective.

Except the fact that there are a lot of reason to claim the contrary (the more connected you are, the more vulnerable you are), you are refusing to consider the fact that perhaps activating and deactivating the citadel relay is not as simple as turn on and turn of a lamp.

Maybe the keepers are really necessary, and they perform a task that the catalyst cannot do directly, without intermediaries.

[kal_reegar]

I've watch the low ems destroy ending... as I suspected, it's heavily implied that the catalyst/reapers cannot stop doing what they're doing "just so".

They need to be destroyed (or controlled, or synthezid) in order to make another solution possible.

 

The catalyst said: "you need to release the energy of the crucible to end the cycle".

“When fire burns, is it at war? Is it in conflict? Or is it simply doing what it was created to do? We are no different.”

"I gave them (the reapers) functions, and in return they give me purpose"

 

It's a very deterministic vision of what the reapers are and can and cannot do. They are not free to choose. They have no free will. And the the catalyst is no different (we are no different; it's purpose is intertwined with the reapers functions, which is like fire burning).

 

So yes, even low ems destroy ending makes sense.

Reapers are no longer effective, but they cannot simply acknowledge that and decide to "end the cycle". Shepard must act, and release the energy.

[Natureguy85]

I cannot prove it, of course, but don't you see that we have so little info that you can't disprove it either?

Let's say that the sheparlyst is merely the catalyst with shepard personality. So what? How can you be certain that it's the sheparyst direclty closing the citadel arms? And not one of its infinite new servants/tools? Is the citadel completely empty?

 

Also: how the control ending (the arms of the citadel closing) contradicts ME1? During the event of ME1, the connection between the Catalyst/Reapers >-> Keepers was somehow broken. Then, after Cerberus Base mission, the Reapers retake the Citadel. Maybe the re-activate the Catalyst/Reapers <-> Keepers connection? Maybe they undone/correct what the prothen scientist did? So now the Catalyst is again able to order the Keepers to close the arms (while during ME he couldn't). It doesn't seem so unlikely to me.

 

 

Also: you pretend to know how the citadel mass relay works. We never see it. We don't even know how mass relays in general work. Then you state that catalyst should have had direct control on the citadel relay, because this way he would have been more effective.

Except the fact that there are a lot of reason to claim the contrary (the more connected you are, the more vulnerable you are), you are refusing to consider the fact that perhaps activating and deactivating the citadel relay is not as simple as turn on and turn of a lamp.

Maybe the keepers are really necessary, and they perform a task that the catalyst cannot do directly, without intermediaries.

 

And you can't prove that the entire game series wasn't TIM's crazy dream after drinking too much brandy.  I don't have to disprove every ridiculous thing someone can possibly imagine. And for all these wild imaginings, nobody ever gives an answer as to why anyone would ever design the system that way. That's the point. You could be right, but that would be stupid.

 

Yes, having someone on board fix the Prothean sabotage is a plausible scenario finally. Unfortunately, you miss the point. There is no reason to rely on the Keepers. The Catalyst should have direct control, with the Keepers potentially being a backup plan. Or the reverse if you like. To not do so is an idiotic design flaw.

 

I don't need to know how Relays work. Organics who don't know how they work turn them on every cycle. However, the Catalyst knows how they work.

That's not a "reason to claim to the contrary." More vulnerable to what and how? This would be a situation where you have to show that it is more complex than an on/off switch.

 

We're never going to agree because we're doing two different things. We're looking at a pile of puzzle pieces. People like me have noticed that they are actually pieces from several different puzzles, so some don't belong and others are missing. You're jamming pieces together hoping that if they fit close enough you can get a coherent picture. That's your prerogative, but I don't like being told that those pieces really do go into those spots. You're trying to justify the existence of a character/thing that doesn't belong in the story.

 

 

 

 

 

I've watch the low ems destroy ending... as I suspected, it's heavily implied that the catalyst/reapers cannot stop doing what they're doing "just so".

They need to be destroyed (or controlled, or synthezid) in order to make another solution possible.

 

The catalyst said: "you need to release the energy of the crucible to end the cycle".

“When fire burns, is it at war? Is it in conflict? Or is it simply doing what it was created to do? We are no different.”

"I gave them (the reapers) functions, and in return they give me purpose"

 

It's a very deterministic vision of what the reapers are and can and cannot do. They are not free to choose. They have no free will. And the the catalyst is no different (we are no different; it's purpose is intertwined with the reapers functions, which is like fire burning).

 

Yes, which is why some of us have argued that the Catalyst is a very basic VI, not the advanced intelligence it claims to be.

[kal_reegar]

And you can't prove that the entire game series wasn't TIM's crazy dream after drinking too much brandy.  I don't have to disprove every ridiculous thing someone can possibly imagine. And for all these wild imaginings, nobody ever gives an answer as to why anyone would ever design the system that way. That's the point. You could be right, but that would be stupid.

 

Yes, having someone on board fix the Prothean sabotage is a plausible scenario finally. Unfortunately, you miss the point. There is no reason to rely on the Keepers. The Catalyst should have direct control, with the Keepers potentially being a backup plan. Or the reverse if you like. To not do so is an idiotic design flaw.

 

I don't need to know how Relays work. Organics who don't know how they work turn them on every cycle. However, the Catalyst knows how they work.

That's not a "reason to claim to the contrary." More vulnerable to what and how? This would be a situation where you have to show that it is more complex than an on/off switch.

 

We're never going to agree because we're doing two different things. We're looking at a pile of puzzle pieces. People like me have noticed that they are actually pieces from several different puzzles, so some don't belong and others are missing. You're jamming pieces together hoping that if they fit close enough you can get a coherent picture. That's your prerogative, but I don't like being told that those pieces really do go into those spots. You're trying to justify the existence of a character/thing that doesn't belong in the story.

 

 

But we know since ME1 that if the keepers don't respond to the signal/imput of our enemies, the only way to open the relay is manually. This is the ME1 plot. Our enemy has not direct control over the citadel relay. Is it an idiotic flawn design? Perhaps, but nobody used to complain so much about that after ME1...

How the catalyst presence on the citadel change everything? It changes nothing.

Sovering could send the signal/imput from everywhere in the galaxy.

The Catalyst could send the signal/imput from it's chamber (or wherever he is located)

Perhaps, even Harbringer could send the signal from the dark space, the Collector leader from his base and the husks from their nests.

It doesn't matter from which place/location/distance Sovereing/Catalyst/Harbringer/Marauder Shield send the signal/Imput, because the keepers are unable to receive/understand that signal/order.

 

So the idiotic flawn design could be, at most, the fact that the keepers are something that can be "hacked" by a bunch of prothean scientist. But again, this is a problem dating back to ME1.

It's also stated in ME1 that theCitade functions are controlled/performed by the Keepers. And that is not an easy thing to bypass the Keepers (Saren plans, Sovering taking manual control, etc).

 

So I don't understand why suddenly the catalyst presence or absence in ME3 seems to be so relevant, and why is a huge continuity problem to assume simply that maybe the catalyst is not in full direct control of everything and everyone, like a master puppeteer pulling strings, but he influence and control things and beings in a more indirect, subtle, nuanced way (mental influence, collective intelligence, various levels of indoctrinations, servant "tools" etc).