But we know since ME1 that if the keepers don't respond to the signal/imput of our enemies, the only way to open the relay is manually. This is the ME1 plot. Our enemy has not direct control over the citadel relay.
Because there was no Catalyst in ME1. The Catalyst is a RETCON! The Reapers left he Keepers to maintain the Citadel and Vigil explained why they did that instead of doing it a different way. There was no "central intelligence" there to do it. Once you add in the Catalyst, having the Keepers around for Organics to see still makes sense, but requiring them to activate the relay, particularly requiring an outside signal from a Reaper, does not. That excuse that this will make the Catalyst more detectable is utter crap.
Given Sovereign's disdain for Organics, yeah, you can question why they'd rely on Organics rather than installing a VI or AI in there, but it worked well the way they did it. They thought they had everything under control and they didn't. It showed that there are ways in which the Machine gods really don't understand Organics and left open ways in which the Organics could win by doing unexpected things.
How the catalyst presence on the citadel change everything? It changes nothing.
Sovering could send the signal/imput from everywhere in the galaxy.
The Catalyst could send the signal/imput from it's chamber (or wherever he is located)
Perhaps, even Harbringer could send the signal from the dark space, the Collector leader from his base and the husks from their nests.
It doesn't matter from which place/location/distance Sovereing/Catalyst/Harbringer/Marauder Shield send the signal/Imput, because the keepers are unable to receive/understand that signal/order.
Once you put an intelligence on the Citadel, there is no reason for it to not have direct control over the one most important system. Forget everything else; all I'm arguing is that it control one thing. There is no need for the Keepers to have a role in it.
So the idiotic flawn design could be, at most, the fact that the keepers are something that can be "hacked" by a bunch of prothean scientist. But again, this is a problem dating back to ME1.
It's also stated in ME1 that theCitade functions are controlled/performed by the Keepers. And that is not an easy thing to bypass the Keepers (Saren plans, Sovering taking manual control, etc).
So I don't understand why suddenly the catalyst presence or absence in ME3 seems to be so relevant, and why is a huge continuity problem to assume simply that maybe the catalyst is not in full direct control of everything and everyone, like a master puppeteer pulling strings, but he influence and control things and beings in a more indirect, subtle, nuanced way (mental influence, collective intelligence, various levels of indoctrinations, servant "tools" etc).
The Keepers weren't hacked; the signal was. The Keepers are like a radio tuned to particular amplitudes or frequencies. Or a computer that only understands certain commands. The Protheans changed the signal to something the Keepers no longer understood, and thus the Keepers didn't respond to it. I know you put "hacked" in quotes so sorry if you do remember all that.
Like I said earlier, Vigil tells us that the Reapers appear to have not been aware of, or at least not expected, the Keepers to evolve to respond directly to the Citadel the way they did. This lack of understanding of Organics was prime to be a fatal flaw later in the story.
And again you take my argument about one thing and go off about the Catalyst can't control everything. I can't tell if you're just ignorant or are purposely being intellectually dishonest. You don't sound stupid, so that would favor the latter.
The Keepers weren't hacked; the signal was. The Keepers are like a radio tuned to particular amplitudes or frequencies. Or a computer that only understands certain commands. The Protheans changed the signal to something the Keepers no longer understood, and thus the Keepers didn't respond to it. I know you put "hacked" in quotes so sorry if you do remember all that.
Like I said earlier, Vigil tells us that the Reapers appear to have not been aware of, or at least not expected, the Keepers to evolve to respond directly to the Citadel the way they did. This lack of understanding of Organics was prime to be a fatal flaw later in the story.
And again you take my argument about one thing and go off about the Catalyst can't control everything. I can't tell if you're just ignorant or are purposely being intellectually dishonest. You don't sound stupid, so that would favor the latter.
yes I know, "hacking the keepers" is just a semplification to be quicker.
My point is:
a. if the keepers materially run the citadel
b. if the keepers are connected with our enemies (Sovereing, Catalyst, Harbringer, all of them or some of them, who cares...) through the signal
b. if the signal had been altered
how and why the existence and/or the location of the catalyst is relevant? Assuming that the catalyst can interface with the keepers exactly as the reapers: through the signal.
The keepers are useless, you say. The signal is useless. Let the central AI directly manage the relay function. There are no good reason for the catalyst not to act directly. I think that there could be a lot of good reason to stay offline and avoid the risk to be discovered.
Also... "An AI cannot be transmitted across a communication channel or computer network. Without its blue box, an AI is no more than data files. Loading these files into a new blue box will create a new personality, as variations in the quantum hardware and runtime results create unpredictable variations."
Could this be a good reason to limit all possible interactions and prefer a "static" behaviour?
yes I know, "hacking the keepers" is just a semplification to be quicker.
My point is:
a. if the keepers materially run the citadel
b. if the keepers are connected with our enemies (Sovereing, Catalyst, Harbringer, all of them or some of them, who cares...) through the signal
b. if the signal had been altered
how and why the existence and/or the location of the catalyst is relevant? Assuming that the catalyst can interface with the keepers exactly as the reapers: through the signal.
Why would the Catalyst interface with the Keepers and not the Relay? Why the extra step that can, and did, fail?
The keepers are useless, you say. The signal is useless. Let the central AI directly manage the relay function. There are no good reason for the catalyst not to act directly. I think that there could be a lot of good reason to stay offline and avoid the risk to be discovered.
Also... "An AI cannot be transmitted across a communication channel or computer network. Without its blue box, an AI is no more than data files. Loading these files into a new blue box will create a new personality, as variations in the quantum hardware and runtime results create unpredictable variations."
Could this be a good reason to limit all possible interactions and prefer a "static" behaviour?
Ugh. I never said the Keepers and signal are useless. They are fine as a redundancy. However, that system requires more steps and thus has more ways to fail, which an AI would know and likely avoid, preferring the most efficient solution. You're imagining problems with this set up so that the other one somehow makes more sense.
It's also annoying how you like to say "I can think of many reasons for X" and then can't say what they are. What do you mean "offline?" Discovered how? It's not transferring itself across a network. It's sending a signal. One computer Organics don't know about communicating directly with another computer organics don't know about.
However, that line you quote might explain why Legion couldn't just copy himself when uploading to the Geth, but Geth weren't full AI and didn't have a true blue box. Oh well.
yes I know, "hacking the keepers" is just a semplification to be quicker.
My point is:
a. if the keepers materially run the citadel
b. if the keepers are connected with our enemies (Sovereing, Catalyst, Harbringer, all of them or some of them, who cares...) through the signal
b. if the signal had been altered
how and why the existence and/or the location of the catalyst is relevant? Assuming that the catalyst can interface with the keepers exactly as the reapers: through the signal.
To be fair, what we know post-sabotage is that the keepers only respond to the citadel. The Protheans only altered the keepers to not receive the signal from sovereign to open the relay. So we can conclude that the signal to open the dark space relay is effectively blocked from a reaper and possibly from any other source. But that is where it ends. This alteration does not affect them from receiving other signals from the citadel (like opening and closing the arms or operating the citadel/maintaining the citadel). And, if my memory is correct, the driving action of ME1 was that Sovereign needed Saren to get in the citadel as it would not be able to breach the citadel arms when closed.
All the catalyst needed to do is open the arms (which we have seen it can do) when sovereign attacked with the Geth. Just like it raised the platform to bring shep up. And we know that it will take direct intervention when it cannot enact its solution.
Essentially it can be shown as a deductive arugment:
A - All Keepers Respond to the Citadel
B - The Citadel is the Catalyst
C - The Keepers respond to the Catalyst
We can headcanon a solution or workaround for this and that is fine (like the sabotage broke the catalysts ability to interact with the keepers, however this is not represented in the game and is contradicted in the blue ending though we can headcanon again to say it is a total reset but again that is intrinsic to us). But going off of what the information provides, yeah this is a case of either poor proof reading or none.
Ok.. imagine you just finished ME1. Answer this question.
why the reapers interface with the keepers and not directly with the relay?
Well, you've got to remember something. Reapers are sleeping (except Sovereign). And when they are asleep, Keepers maintain the Citadel and await their next command to open the relay. And ME1 establishes that they can't just wake up and fly into the galaxy. They need to be awakened and summoned through the Relay. When Sovereign attempted to make Keepers do just that, Keepers didn't respond (thanks to the Protheans). When Sovereign attacked the Citadel to open the relay personally, he failed which meant that Reapers should've been trapped there, asleep.
Now, let's imagine that there is the Catalyst, that resides in the Citadel (knows everything about it and apparently built it) and is the Collective Intelligence of all Reapers. That means that Reapers (Catalyst) had access to the Citadel and all of its systems all the time. Catalyst doesn't need Keepers to operate the Citadel BECAUSE HE IS THE CITADEL. Can you see the difference?
To be fair, what we know post-sabotage is that the keepers only respond to the citadel. The Protheans only altered the keepers to not receive the signal from sovereign to open the relay. So we can conclude that the signal to open the dark space relay is effectively blocked from a reaper and possibly from any other source. But that is where it ends. This alteration does not affect them from receiving other signals from the citadel (like opening and closing the arms or operating the citadel/maintaining the citadel). And, if my memory is correct, the driving action of ME1 was that Sovereign needed Saren to get in the citadel as it would not be able to breach the citadel arms when closed.
All the catalyst needed to do is open the arms (which we have seen it can do) when sovereign attacked with the Geth. Just like it raised the platform to bring shep up. And we know that it will take direct intervention when it cannot enact its solution.
Essentially it can be shown as a deductive arugment:
A - All Keepers Respond to the Citadel
B - The Citadel is the Catalyst
C - The Keepers respond to the Catalyst
We can headcanon a solution or workaround for this and that is fine (like the sabotage broke the catalysts ability to interact with the keepers, however this is not represented in the game and is contradicted in the blue ending though we can headcanon again to say it is a total reset but again that is intrinsic to us). But going off of what the information provides, yeah this is a case of either poor proof reading or none.
B - The Citadel is the Catalyst
This is a misleading over-semplification,imo.
The citadel is part of the catalyst, his home, but they are not the same thing.
There is a physical structure, and an Ai located in it. If you destroy the catalyst, the citadel is still there, in the red ending.
This Ai maybe (probably) used to control the physical structure through the keepers and the signal.
The prothean managed to alter the signal, and thus the catalyst/reapers ability to control the physical structure of the citadel.
Between saren blitzt and me3 blue ending the catalyst manage to regain control over the keepers/arms/elevator (after all, the reapers retake the citadel after cerberus base mission: the can undone whatever the prothean did).
B - The Citadel is the Catalyst
This is a misleading over-semplification,imo.
The citadel is part of the catalyst, his home, but they are not the same thing.
Oh...ok
I am just going on what the material tells us. First it tells us the citadel is the catalyst. Then the Catalyst tells us it is part of him and his home. I have seen many try to argue that the catalyst cannot control the citadel as we - a human cannot control our heart. But that is not really the most effective reasoning.
From what the material shows and tells, the catalyst controls everything that it is a part of. The citadel (via the keepers) and the reapers. Now, we can headcanon that it can't, we can create a lot of reasons why it can't. But those reasons are contradicted in the material
There is a physical structure, and an Ai located in it. If you destroy the catalyst, the citadel is still there, in the red ending.
This Ai maybe (probably) used to control the physical structure through the keepers and the signal.
The prothean managed to alter the signal, and thus the catalyst/reapers ability to control the physical structure of the citadel.
Between saren blitzt and me3 blue ending the catalyst manage to regain control over the keepers/arms/elevator (after all, the reapers retake the citadel after cerberus base mission: the can undone whatever the prothean did).
Just like when you destroy the reapers their bodies are still there. The citadel houses the catalyst and is the home and part of the catalyst. As for the signal, the protheans only altered the ability for the keepers to receive the signal from sovereign to open the relay to dark space - that is it. After the sabotage, the story explicitly states they (the keepers) ONLY respond to the citadel. We can headcanon more but that is not represented in the material. The last part is a great bit of imagination though, not shown or discussed in the material but hey still a fun take.
The difference is that Sovereign is sending a signal from outside the Citadel/Relay while the Catalyst is inside and could be connected to it directly.
To be fair, what we know post-sabotage is that the keepers only respond to the citadel. The Protheans only altered the keepers to not receive the signal from sovereign to open the relay.
No! They altered the signal, not the Keepers. Think of it like changing that signal to a language the Keepers don't understand.
After the sabotage, the story explicitly states they (the keepers) ONLY respond to the citadel.
That was the natural evolution of the Keepers. That Sovereign did not expect this is speculated to be the reason it used the Synthetic, and therefor more predictable Geth, but also opened the door for Organics to surprise the machine gods and find a way to win.
Well, you've got to remember something. Reapers are sleeping (except Sovereign). And when they are asleep, Keepers maintain the Citadel and await their next command to open the relay. And ME1 establishes that they can't just wake up and fly into the galaxy. They need to be awakened and summoned through the Relay. When Sovereign attempted to make Keepers do just that, Keepers didn't respond (thanks to the Protheans). When Sovereign attacked the Citadel to open the relay personally, he failed which meant that Reapers should've been trapped there, asleep.
Now, let's imagine that there is the Catalyst, that resides in the Citadel (knows everything about it and apparently built it) and is the Collective Intelligence of all Reapers. That means that Reapers (Catalyst) had access to the Citadel and all of its systems all the time. Catalyst doesn't need Keepers to operate the Citadel BECAUSE HE IS THE CITADEL. Can you see the difference?
The first paragraph is vigil speculation: me2 prove it wrong. The reapers are not sleeping and they are arriving.
As for the second paragraph, no, I don't see any difference. Really.
The citadel functions works through the keepers. Period.
And the citadel as a physical structure is not exactly the catalyst (see above).
The reapers control the keepers through the signal.
It's irrelevant whether the signal is sent from inside the citadel or from the other side of the galaxy.
And really, if the catalyst (an ai) was totally integrated with the citadel (like edi and the normandy) instead of working through organic intermediaries, it would habe been far more vulnerable (hacking?) and much easier to detect. By organics, or by another Ai they might upload into the citadel.
The first paragraph is vigil speculation: me2 prove it wrong. The reapers are not sleeping and they are arriving.
No, ME2 retconned it.
And really, if the catalyst (an ai) was totally integrated with the citadel (like edi and the normandy) instead of working through organic intermediaries, it would habe been far more vulnerable (hacking?) and much easier to detect. By organics, or by another Ai they might upload into the citadel.
How? You keep throwing this out there, but it's just not true. Organics don't have access to the Relay system or the Catalyst.
The simplest answer: the Catalyst was dormant until the Crucible docked.
Then Reapers should've been dormant as well. Catalyst controls the Reapers and is their collective intelligence. If Catalyst is asleep then who is controlling the Reapers? Basically any sensible explanation is contradicted by the game info.
I am just going on what the material tells us. First it tells us the citadel is the catalyst. Then the Catalyst tells us it is part of him and his home. I have seen many try to argue that the catalyst cannot control the citadel as we - a human cannot control our heart. But that is not really the most effective reasoning.
From what the material shows and tells, the catalyst controls everything that it is a part of. The citadel (via the keepers) and the reapers. Now, we can headcanon that it can't, we can create a lot of reasons why it can't. But those reasons are contradicted in the material
but the material tell us many more thing...
the citadel is a huge space station and a mass realy
the catalyst is an ancient AI
the citadel is part of the catalyst
the citadel is the home of the catalyst
the keepers manage the basic functions of the citadel
the keepers respond only to the citadel
if the keepers don't recongnise the reapers signal, the reapers need to act manually
the catalyst need saren/sovereing to manually activate the relay
the catalyst need shepard to activate the crucible
the catalyst control the elevator
the sheparlyst control the citadel arms
All of these info are canon. Finding a scenario where all these info combined makes sense and do not contradict each other is not headcanon. It's merely a logic operation. O course all these info cannot be taken one by one as absolute and simplified truth, but they must be interpreted in the light of each other.
A scenario where
1. the catalyst (AI) is located in the citadel (physical structure): the citadel is my home
2. doesn't control directly the citadel functions (but he controls them throught keepers and through the signal)
3. lose the ability to control the keepers and thus the citadel (due the prothean scientist intervention)
4. the keepers become independent from external influnce (they respond only to the citadel)
5. the catalyst regained the ability to control the citadel (and possibly the keepers) after the citadel is taken back by the reapers
is (imho) a possible one.
The difference is that Sovereign is sending a signal from outside the Citadel/Relay while the Catalyst is inside and could be connected to it directly.
could be.
But evidentely he can't, or won't.
Then what's the point in going into the Dark Space in the first place?
put everything in stand-by with low energy consume + no risk to be discovered, I suppose
How? You keep throwing this out there, but it's just not true. Organics don't have access to the Relay system or the Catalyst.
1. maybe he simply cannot handle the relay functions directly,without connection. He was created to analize variables, not to personally manage a mass relay.
2. maybe he doesn't want to upload itself right into the citadel informatic system. Other AI could detect him (David Archer can take control of the normandy/edi... let's say that the catalyst is powerful enough to block these kind of attempt... but it's existence would be revealed)
3. the presidium AI was detected in two minutes by a team of stupid space soldiers... put scientist like mordin and admiral xen for 10 years on the citadel, and perhaps they will notice something strange..
4. the more "shields", red herrings and dead ends you arrange, the more unlikely is to be detected. It's obvious, it's a common experience rule. A mega-super-powerful AI like the catalyst (which is nothing more than a conscious, huge, enormous, immense, amount of data files) is not something that can be easily hidden.
5. the consequences of failure: if the catalyst it detected (very very very very very unlikely, but being "online" is no matter what more dangerous than be hidden offline somewhere, right?), it could be destroyed. And if the collective intelligence is destroyed... it's like critical game over. On the other hand, if the keepers are incapacitated and the citadel trap prevented... so what? The reapers will simply delay the cycle.
So some small amount of efficiency can be sacrified in order to avoid the (small small small, but still existent) risk of being discovered. A simple trade off.
6. etc etc... I say it again: I don't find so unlikely an AI, incapable of direct, material unmediated control over a space portal. It would not even be necessary to find an explicit explanation.
1. maybe he simply cannot handle the relay functions directly,without connection. He was created to analize variables, not to personally manage a mass relay.
2. maybe he doesn't want to upload itself right into the citadel informatic system. Other AI could detect him (David Archer can take control of the normandy/edi... let's say that the catalyst is powerful enough to block these kind of attempt... but it's existence would be revealed)
3. the presidium AI was detected in two minutes by a team of stupid space soldiers... put scientist like mordin and admiral xen for 10 years on the citadel, and perhaps they will notice something strange..
4. the more "shields", red herrings and dead ends you arrange, the more unlikely is to be detected. It's obvious, it's a common experience rule. A mega-super-powerful AI like the catalyst (which is nothing more than a conscious, huge, enormous, immense, amount of data files) is not something that can be easily hidden.
5. the consequences of failure: if the catalyst it detected (very very very very very unlikely, but being "online" is no matter what more dangerous than be hidden offline somewhere, right?), it could be destroyed. And if the collective intelligence is destroyed... it's like critical game over. On the other hand, if the keepers are incapacitated and the citadel trap prevented... so what? The reapers will simply delay the cycle.
So some small amount of efficiency can be sacrified in order to avoid the (small small small, but still existent) risk of being discovered. A simple trade off.
6. etc etc... I say it again: I don't find so unlikely an AI, incapable of direct, material unmediated control over a space portal. It would not even be necessary to find an explicit explanation.
1) He's supposedly an advanced AI. EDI wasn't designed to handle a body, yet there she goes. If the Catalyst were simple VI (and it does act like one with how limited its thinking is) then this would make more sense. Yet both it and the Leviathan tell us it's super smart.
2) Stop making up crap about the point I'm making. What "informatic system?" It just needs to control ONE THING that is not necessarily connected to anything else except a power source and that Organics don't know exists.
3) The Presidium AI was actively communicating through public systems. Nobody ever finds explores the depths of the Citadel.
4) The only example of these is the Keepers, and it makes sense to have them around, even if they only pretended to control things and the Catalyst did everything directly. However, this is still not an excuse for the Catalyst to not control the single most important function. Easily hidden or not, it is hidden, as is the Relay function. If they can hide one, they can hide the other and connecting the two does not make them more detectable, no matter how many times you say it does without explanation.
5) No because the Organics don't know where either system is. These two things can still be isolated from every other system on the Citadel other than a power source, and they could even have their own independent power source, since power is something that might be tracked if Organics get access to the core, though I don't think they do. So the risk is still present and is not increased by the Catalyst being able to control the Relay. In fact, this possibility is even more reason to control it directly. If found, it could call the Reapers in immediately.
6) Really you're taking something that makes no sense and shoving whatever nonsense you need into the story to match two incompatible things. Using nonsense to clear up nonsense is not good. Of course it's possible, it's just stupid.
Then Reapers should've been dormant as well. Catalyst controls the Reapers and is their collective intelligence. If Catalyst is asleep then who is controlling the Reapers? Basically any sensible explanation is contradicted by the game info.
The Catalyst, I presume, is inactive to prevent its discovery by the races inhabiting the Citadel. My guess is that the Reapers, who've been demonstrated to have individual minds, can run themselves adequately throughout the invasion, with the Catalyst being more the source of the Reapers' basic programming and possibly the repository of their memories, than an always-on master control unit.
the citadel is a huge space station and a mass realy
the catalyst is an ancient AI
the citadel is part of the catalyst
the citadel is the home of the catalyst
the keepers manage the basic functions of the citadel
the keepers respond only to the citadel
if the keepers don't recongnise the reapers signal, the reapers need to act manually
the catalyst need saren/sovereing to manually activate the relay
the catalyst need shepard to activate the crucible
the catalyst control the elevator
the sheparlyst control the citadel arms
Ok, lets go thorough line by and link to the source. Because you just said the exact same things I have been saying with one added point that I did NOT say.
the citadel is a huge space station and a mass realy
"They evolved to only respond to the signals emanating from the citadel itself"
if the keepers don't recognize the reapers signal, the reapers need to act manually
SOURCE:
Vigil:
(please not in this the catalyst is not a reaper but the collective consciousness and controlling body)
the catalyst need saren/sovereing to manually activate the relay
SOURCE?
Only Sovereign needed saren to give him control of the citadel to activate the relay as the arms would surely close in an attack. Where is it said it couldn't open the arms?
the catalyst need shepard to activate the crucible
Ok, that should about do it. Looking at the material we can see that the catalyst apparently can operate the citadel through the citadel functions and that the keepers that maintain the citadel only respond to the citadel - which is the catalyst. Now, onto the next part:
All of these info are canon. Finding a scenario where all these info combined makes sense and do not contradict each other is not headcanon. It's merely a logic operation. O course all these info cannot be taken one by one as absolute and simplified truth, but they must be interpreted in the light of each other.
A scenario where
1. the catalyst (AI) is located in the citadel (physical structure): the citadel is my home
2. doesn't control directly the citadel functions (but he controls them throught keepers and through the signal)
3. lose the ability to control the keepers and thus the citadel (due the prothean scientist intervention)
4. the keepers become independent from external influnce (they respond only to the citadel)
5. the catalyst regained the ability to control the citadel (and possibly the keepers) after the citadel is taken back by the reapers
is (imho) a possible one.
To this statement:
"Finding a scenario where all these info combined makes sense and do not contradict each other is not headcanon"
Headcanon is where the audience/player/reader substitutes their own interpretation.views on the material that are not explicity stated:
"(fandom slang) Elements and interpretations of a fictional universe accepted by an individual fan, but not found within or supported by the official canon."
The next part here is where I start to worry about your objectivity and directly contradicts your earlier statement.
"O course all these info cannot be taken one by one as absolute and simplified truth, but they must be interpreted in the light of each other."
Why? Why must we not take them as absolute? Why is it that I think the use of "interpreted in light of each other" sounds suspiciously like headcanon to me? How about just take each element and see how it connects to the next element logically? What is incorrect about this logical flow - which is what the material literally tells and shows us?
1 - The keepers respond to the citadel
2 - the Citadel is the catalyst
3 - The Keepers respond to the Catalyst (inferred from points 1 & 2 and then proven in the material via cut scene: Sheps Elevator, Arms opening post crucible, arms closing post control)
Here is another flow that works the same way and I do not think you will have any issue with this one
1 - All reapers are controlled by the Catalyst
2 - Harbinger is a Reaper
3 - Harbinger is controlled by the catalyst (this is what we derive from points 1 & 2)
1. the catalyst (AI) is located in the citadel (physical structure): the citadel is my home = This is shown correct by all sources
2. doesn't control directly the citadel functions (but he controls them throught keepers and through the signal) = This is contradicted by sources
- The catalyst controls the keepers because they respond to the citadel - which is the catalyst. You even correctly mark that the catalyst does control the keepers. And the keepers control/maintain the citadel (including arm operation, mass relay activation - now removed, etc). So how can something control the operators of the citadel and not have the ability to control the operators of the citadel to operate the citadel functions?
This line of logic falls apart very quickly and people caught onto it.
3. lose the ability to control the keepers and thus the citadel (due the prothean scientist intervention) = This is where the headcanon starts to take over.
Please represent where it is shown/stated that the prothean sabotage prevented the keepers from receiving signals from the citadel itself? The Citadel - as you have marked - is the Catalyst and the Catalyst is the citadel. Post Sabotage, the keepers ONLY respond to the citadel (nothing else). If you can, please represent a codex entry or something that shows how/where/why the catalyst lost control of the keepers. That would really help, otherwise, this fits under headcanon.
4. the keepers become independent from external influnce (they respond only to the citadel) = Yes, and this breaks your point 4 because the citadel IS the catalyst.
5. the catalyst regained the ability to control the citadel (and possibly the keepers) after the citadel is taken back by the reapers = Source? When did it lose the ability to control the citadel? Are you saying that the arms didn't open in ME1 and the proof is that the arms didn't open in ME1? That is a great circular fallacy but not a logical - or rational representation of the information. The catalyst has never been shown to have lost control over the keepers/citadel, if you could provide a citation to show where I would be much obliged.
is (imho) a possible one.
*Bold is my emphasis
Opinions are great, but there is a difference between what is in the material and our personal take on it. One person's suspension of disbelief is not equal to the other. Thus, to judge the consistency and coherence of writing, one really should remove themselves from interpretations and only look at the logical consistency of what is being presented. Tolkein had a great write up on the Secondary World and Suspension of Disbelief. Another great analysis is a focus on what is called post purchase rationalization & brand identification and how it affects social identity. People who love Coca Cola will defend Coca Cola till the end (even if they contradict themselves in blind taste tests). To them, the brand is a major part of their social construct. I recommend reading into it as I am fascinated by cognitive bias's
Basically, if you can find in the material what was required - using no headcanon - we can see how the pieces fit together. However, I am not sure that will happen as I am constantly looking and I cannot find it.
I suppose this tweet sums up the issue with the catalyst:
1) He's supposedly an advanced AI. EDI wasn't designed to handle a body, yet there she goes. If the Catalyst were simple VI (and it does act like one with how limited its thinking is) then this would make more sense. Yet both it and the Leviathan tell us it's super smart.
2) Stop making up crap about the point I'm making. What "informatic system?" It just needs to control ONE THING that is not necessarily connected to anything else except a power source and that Organics don't know exists.
3) The Presidium AI was actively communicating through public systems. Nobody ever finds explores the depths of the Citadel.
4) The only example of these is the Keepers, and it makes sense to have them around, even if they only pretended to control things and the Catalyst did everything directly. However, this is still not an excuse for the Catalyst to not control the single most important function. Easily hidden or not, it is hidden, as is the Relay function. If they can hide one, they can hide the other and connecting the two does not make them more detectable, no matter how many times you say it does without explanation.
5) No because the Organics don't know where either system is. These two things can still be isolated from every other system on the Citadel other than a power source, and they could even have their own independent power source, since power is something that might be tracked if Organics get access to the core, though I don't think they do. So the risk is still present and is not increased by the Catalyst being able to control the Relay. In fact, this possibility is even more reason to control it directly. If found, it could call the Reapers in immediately.
6) Really you've decided the outcome ahead of time and are seeking justification for your predetermined result rather than following a sensible line of thought. Of course it's possible, it's just stupid.
1. She is supposed to handle concrete things like ships. The catalyst is supposed to analize variables. He might need an "extra-help" to handle complex concrete things as mass relays.
2. connections are exactly what makes you more detectable. A direct informatic connection/telecommunication network between the catalyst and the mass relay could expose both of them. It's the classic "weak link". We can't know the complexity of such an operation (opening a mass relay) and the network required for it.
It could be easier to conceal it within the global network of the citadel (with the keepers as ""barrier), rather than create a parallel, isolated network.
3. ok
4 e 5. as I've said, connections between nodes, data exchange etc are dangerous, especially in informatic, but not only. Connections always leave a trace.
6. I'm trying to make hypothesis, not to be too abstract, but in the end
The existence of the Catalyst on the Citadel only creates a problem if one also assumes the Catalyst has perfect control over all the systems of the Citadel. Except we already know the Reapers do not have perfect control over the station, and the assumed capability of control over the entire station is invented and supplied intirely by the fans.
Before you can claim a plot hole on account of a contravening fact, the contravening fact must actually be established. It never was, and the fact itself is contradicted by the actions within the games by the Reapers.
The existence of the Catalyst on the Citadel only creates a problem if one also assumes the Catalyst has perfect control over all the systems of the Citadel. Except we already know the Reapers do not have perfect control over the station, and the assumed capability of control over the entire station is invented and supplied intirely by the fans.
Before you can claim a plot hole on account of a contravening fact, the contravening fact must actually be established. It never was, and the fact itself is contradicted by the actions within the games by the Reapers.
Also the thing controls the ramps to the three options. If ems is below 2700, only the control and destroy ramps are raised. Of course if ems is low enough, below 1750, only one ramp will be raised
KrrKs, Ithurael, BloodyMares et 1 autre aiment ceci
^ Good point Mike! I get so caught up in sourcing and stuff I forget some of the other items.
Not a problem. You did all the hard work.
The other thing is that the catalyst mentions it needs Shepard to activate the crucible. Ok. So how is it able to shut off the crucible if Shepard refuses?
The next part here is where I start to worry about your objectivity and directly contradicts your earlier statement.
"O course all these info cannot be taken one by one as absolute and simplified truth, but they must be interpreted in the light of each other."
Why? Why must we not take them as absolute? Why is it that I think the use of "interpreted in light of each other" sounds suspiciously like headcanon to me? How about just take each element and see how it connects to the next element logically? What is incorrect about this logical flow - which is what the material literally tells and shows us?
Because if you take them as absolute they are contradictory.
For example. Sovereing: we are indipendent nations. Catalyst: I control the reapers, the reapers are mine
You need to combine them. Find a reasonable compromise. For example, collective intelligence.
1 - The keepers respond to the citadel
2 - the Citadel is the catalyst
3 - The Keepers respond to the Catalyst (inferred from points 1 & 2 and then proven in the material via cut scene: Sheps Elevator, Arms opening post crucible, arms closing post control)
No. The citadel is not the catalyst.
This was an "error" made by the crucible creators, born from their ignorance.
We need something (let's call it the catalyst) to make the crucible works -> the catalyst is the citadel (power source/space station).
But the catalyst (AI, reapers collective intelligence) is not the citadel.
Vigil didn't even know the catalyst exist. So when he said that the keepers respond to the citadel, he means the space station/power source, and not the AI. He means that they are now indipendent from the reapers influnce.
Come on man, this is clear as the sun
If we do not agree about that, we will never agree about anything
The other thing is that the catalyst mentions it needs Shepard to activate the crucible. Ok. So how is it able to shut off the crucible if Shepard refuses?
Reapers? ("the catalyst has been destroyed")
Also the thing controls the ramps to the three options. If ems is below 2700, only the control and destroy ramps are raised. Of course if ems is low enough, below 1750, only one ramp will be raised
The catalyst is controlling the citadel during ME3 ending.
The catalyst seems to be unable to control the citadel during ME1.
This would be a contradiction if the situation was the same.
But it is not the same. There is a huge difference. The reapers conquered and retake full control of the citadel before ME3 ending.
Wait...why are you forcing this to work? You already said that this does not need headcanon to work so why are you pushing these two obviously contradictory elements together without specifying the source material?
Also the Catalyst literally says the citadel is PART of him, so yes...the Citadel IS Literally the catalyst.
Retour en haut
