3581 réponses à ce sujet

[Natureguy85]

The more often I visit this topic (and the other one with destroy ending), the more I am convinced that this is the case with all people defending the ending of ME3. I have yet to see the deep narrative analysis on par with Shamus' or smudboy's that actually can show the writing from the good side. All arguments usually are about "misunderstood and unappreciated piece of art" or "hidden meaning" or something like that.

Yeah, though to Kal's credit, be is more honest that he's the one forcing the story to work where the other clowns defend the story as told.

[Ithurael]

The Prothean scientist altered the Citadel's Signals (plurals).

 

it's not headcanon...

 

 

(minute 15.02)

 

 

 

That is great! However, the signals (in all reality signal in question) is the one to open the relay. Where is it said that is impacting ANY OTHER SIGNAL? Or are you assuming?

 

First we have (at about 9:54)

 

A signal is sent through the station compelling the keepers to activate the citadel relay

 

at 10:01

 

After decades of feverish study, the scientists discovered a way to alter this signal

 

At 10:10

This time, when soveriegn sent the signal

 

So yeah, in context we are clearly talking about ONE SIGNAL

 

And again what did this alteration do explicitly?

"when the protheans altered the citadel's signals they broke Soveriegn's hold over the keepers"

 

The alteration was ONLY to affect the signal that soveriegn sends. NOT THE KEEPERS RESPONDING TO THE CITADEL - which is the Catalyst

 

However, the keepers still respond to the signals emitted by the citadel itself. Which as we know is part of the catalyst.

 

The sabotage only affected the keeper:reaper relationship, NOT the keeper:citadel relationship.

The scientists altered part of the catalysts signals = yes

 

As you have said, part of =/= all of. the signal or signals to open the citadel mass relay are removed - yes. The signals to open the arms are not.

 

Good try, but looking at the material - nope.You can assume it did more, but it is not proven and contradicted by ME3.

[kal_reegar]

That is great! However, the signals (in all reality signal in question) is the one to open the relay. Where is it said that is impacting ANY OTHER SIGNAL? Or are you assuming?

 

First we have (at about 9:54)

 

A signal is sent through the station compelling the keepers to activate the citadel relay

 

at 10:01

 

After decades of feverish study, the scientists discovered a way to alter this signal

 

At 10:10

This time, when soveriegn sent the signal

 

So yeah, in context we are clearly talking about ONE SIGNAL

 

And again what did this alteration do explicitly?

"when the protheans altered the citadel's signals they broke Soveriegn's hold over the keepers"

 

The alteration was ONLY to affect the signal that soveriegn sends. NOT THE KEEPERS RESPONDING TO THE CITADEL - which is the Catalyst

 

However, the keepers still respond to the signals emitted by the citadel itself. Which as we know is part of the catalyst.

 

The sabotage only affected the keeper:reaper relationship, NOT the keeper:citadel relationship.

The scientists altered part of the catalysts signals = yes

 

As you have said, part of =/= all of. the signal or signals to open the citadel mass relay are removed - yes. The signals to open the arms are not.

 

Good try, but looking at the material - nope.You can assume it did more, but it is not proven and contradicted by ME3.

 

 

come on my friend! Don't headcanon.

Looking at the material, we know that the prothean scientists:

1. altered the a signal (the one sent from Sovereing)

2. altered the Citadel's signals (not necessarly all of them, but more than one, yes)

 

plural is not singular, and the Sovering is not the Citadel.

"this signal" (sent from sovereing) =/= Citadel's signals

 

They've been both altered by the Prothean. This is what Vigil tell us.

 

This is not a good try or interpretation, these are in-game, explicit info.

Some of the citadel's (aka part of  catalyst 's) signals have been altered by the prothean scientist.

[Ithurael]

come on my friend! Don't headcanon.

Looking at the material, we know that the prothean scientists:

1. altered the a signal (the one sent from Sovereing)

2. altered the Citadel's signals (not necessarly all of them, but more than one, yes)

 

plural is not singular, and the Sovering is not the Citadel.

"this signal" (sent from sovereing) =/= Citadel's signals

 

They've been both altered by the Prothean. This is what Vigil tell us.

 

This is not a good try or interpretation, these are in-game, explicit info.

Some of the citadel's (aka part of  catalyst 's) signals have been altered by the prothean scientist.

 

I don't headcanon

 

We know what signals were altered - the one to open the relay. It is blatant assumption (even headcanon to assume what isn't stated)

 

We then see that the keepers respond directly to the citadel

 

We then find out the catalyst is on the citadel, it is his home and part of him and that he is raising platforms, opening/closing arms, etc.

 

So, in ME3 we see it has control over the citadel, in ME1 soveriegn needed to open the citadel. The only alteration made by the sabotage was - only stated - the mass relay signal.

 

I like that you are latching to the plural of signals - and that is great. However the lore is very very clear on what was affected. In a way, you are kind of over generalizing. Remember when I said the citadel IS the catalyst and we deduced that the citadel was part of the catalyst (not 100% of it). You are just assuming that signals are including the ones to open the arms - which is contradicted by ME3.

 

No Go here bud. You can use this for your personal belief. But, again, what is explicitly stated is that the signal to open the relay were altered. That was the premise of the sabotage. If you can find where it says they altered the signals to prevent the keepers from closing the arms go for it. In fact, we know the signal to close/open the arms is not touched because, in ME1 Asari command sends a signal to close the arms - and they close.

 

Even from that we derive that this open arms/close arms command was not impacted.

 

You were SO close!!!! Well...oh well

[kal_reegar]

 

We know what signals were altered - the one to open the relay. It is blatant assumption (even headcanon to assume what isn't stated)

 

ahhaha, rather than face the evidence, you decide to rape the english language (your mother tongue, you assassin!)

"We know what SIGNALS (plurals) were altered: the ONE (one, 1, singular) to open the relay" is a sentence that makes no sense, and you probably know it.

 

The protheans altered

1. the one signal from sovereing

2 the Citadel's signals (signals from the Citadel)

 

This is Vigil quotations... you cannot establish that the first one is ok and the second one never existed, or it's wrong.

[Ithurael]

ahhaha, rather than face the evidence, you decide to rape the english language (your mother tongue, you assassin!)

"We know what SIGNALS (plurals) were altered: the ONE (one, 1, singular) to open the relay" is a sentence that makes no sense, and you probably know it.

 

The protheans altered

1. the one signal from sovereing

2 the Citadel's signals (signals from the Citadel)

 

This is Vigil quotations... you cannot establish that the first one is ok and the second one never existed, or it's wrong.

 

I will admit, it wasn't my best sentence but I go with what I can.

 

I can agree Vigil says signals - this is proven. You are assuming that this somehow impacts the Catalysts control over the citadel or the catalyst to send the open arms command.

 

We know very explicitly what the protheans altered as explained by Vigil, the signal to open the relay. Can you find the citation that shows they altered the open arms command?

 

Because, logically, if we see this:

The protheans altered the signal to ignore the open the mass relay

The signal to open the mass relay was sent

The signal was ignored

 

This makes sense and is validated by the material

 

However, you are now trying to say the catalyst does not have any connection/control/influence over the citadel because of this. Ok, let's assume that the sabotage altered the ability to open/close the arms right? How is it opening the arms in ME3? How is it raising the platforms in ME3? Time? Do you have a citation that shows how/where the catalyst regained this special ability?

 

EDIT: In fact, upon review we see that the catalyst actually seems to have visual control OVER the citadel arms in ME1 during sovereign's assault. When Asari command try to close the arms (as they have before) something prevents them and they are unable to giving sovereign just enough time go get in and then Saren initiates the close arms command. Just noticed that little diddy.

 

Even if we take the protheans altered the signal model above, we see that the command to operate the arms still works..so yeah...idk bud. You can headcanon what you want, but I think it will end there.

 

Man, you really want to win this.

[kal_reegar]

 

We know very explicitly what the protheans altered as explained by Vigil, the signal to open the relay. Can you find the citation that shows they altered the open arms command?

 

 

no, but knowing that the prothean altered the Citadel's (part of the Catalyst) signals (I don't know which ones or how many, but at least two of them) makes that kind of assumptions/interpretations a little more likely/plausible (or if you're really mean, less hard to believe/less incoherent).

 

 

 

ow is it opening the arms in ME3? How is it raising the platforms in ME3? Time? Do you have a citation that shows how/where the catalyst regained this special ability?

 

Again, no, but I know that the Citadel has been materially retaken by indoctrinated agents of Cerberus,  Harbringer and it's ilk. Nothing would prevent them from undone what the prothean scientist had done.

It's arguably a sensible thing to do (removing the prothean alterations of the signal and/or the signals).

[Ithurael]

no, but knowing that the prothean altered the Citadel's (part of the Catalyst) signals (I don't know which ones or how many, but at least two of them) makes that kind of assumptions/interpretations a little more likely/plausible (or if you're really mean, less hard to believe/less incoherent).

 

Ok, no citation. We know only one real thing about the sabotage - it altered the ability to receive the signal (or hey even signals) to open the relay. As we have seen in the codex - and as I noticed - the open/close arms is ignored and untouched. You can add in your assumptions to make it work and that is fine by me. But the narrative has already given the answer on this.

 

 

 

Again, no, but I know that the Citadel has been materially retaken by indoctrinated agents of Cerberus,  Harbringer and it's ilk. Nothing would prevent them from undone what the prothean scientist had done.

It's arguably a sensible thing to do (removing the prothean alterations of the signal and/or the signals).

 

Ok, no citation - not the best to prove the claim but ok. The only indoctrinated agent we have seen was TIM onboard the citadel (maybe he closed the arms and defended the spot where the beam went to - this makes sense as we see it. However, you are just assuming again.

 

Another sensible thing to do is for the leviathans to just use their mind control and prevent everyone from making robots, another sensible thing is for the reapers to just remain in the galaxy and reap the species at spaceflight. It may seem sensible to you, but in the narrative we need representations and points to allow us to connect the lore and represent its coherence. The narrative never tells us that the sabotage was reversed. In fact, that was a major question I had post refuse ending. I mean, you only want to communicate the most important things in the story, obviously the sabotage was a very important measure and was communicated in ME1 as it was central to the plot. In ME3 there is no such citation of it being reverse thus we have no idea and cannot conclude it was, nor even that the sabotage impacted the arms.

 

Now, your suspension of disbelief is probably greater than mine (I am very easily distracted) but if we have no cutscene, codex entry, even a quick mention of them reverting everything back, then there is no real definite proof. You can assume - again that is fine. But, again to bring in epistemology, truth is proven belief does not have to be.

 

EDIT: And I think that should take care or your points correct? Do you have anything else you would like to mention? Remember, we are trying to show how there is no contradiction in the narrative itself - not our interpretation of said narrative. You can have your headcanon (as you have mentioned you are just using your headcanon) but let's not state that is factual. Other than that, I think we are wrapped up here.

 

[kal_reegar]

 

 

The only indoctrinated agent we have seen was TIM onboard the citadel

 

 

I don't think he conquered the citadel alone... but the citadel could have been taken by the reapers alone, why not.

After the reapers had taken control of the citadel, why shouldn't they remove the prothean alterations? That trick caused them a relevant amount of hassles...

 

 

 

 

 

 

. I mean, you only want to communicate the most important things in the story, obviously the sabotage was a very important measure and was communicated in ME1 as it was central to the plot. In ME3 there is no such citation of it being reverse thus we have no idea and cannot conclude it was, nor even that the sabotage impacted the arms.

 

We are discussing about that a lot, and we are dissecting every cut-scene and every citation, so probably our perspective is a little bit distorted.

But really, given the plot of ME3, it's pretty irrelevant who/where/what is able to control the citadel arms and the mass relay.

 

I know many people that have played all the ME trilogy and none of them had risen questions like "if the citadel is part of the catalyst, how is it possible that catalyst is controlling the magic elevator and/or the arms in the control ending, if all ME1 plot was abput preventing a reapers agent/pawns to take control of the citadel ????".

Many of them hate the catalyst, yes, but because it was artistically horrid, poorly foreshadowed and despite being the most ancient, omniscient and powerful AI in the galaxy he talks like an idiotic street prophet.

 

 

We know only one real thing about the sabotage - it altered the ability to receive the signal (or hey even signals) to open the relay.

 

They altered the signal that open the relay (from Sovereing)

AND

They altered the Citadel's signals (more than one, possibly ALL of them *- in the same way as "the citadel is part of me" means "all the Citadel is part of me" ). Vigil is not speaking about the signals (there is but one) to open the relay, this is an assumption added by you

He is speaking about the Citadel's signals.

 

The citadel is part of the catalyst

The prothean altered the citadel's signals (possibly all of them)

The prothean altered part of the catalyst's signals (possibly all of them, and at least two of them, the relay signal + another one)

 

Really, it's almost as saying that the Prothean partially hacked the Catalyst. Almost.

 

 

For me is enough, now I can head-canon more happily

Good debate, anyway. I've discover many new interesting things and I have pondered/questioned several other things. So I thank you for your patience and your IMMENSE insights

 

 

 

* In my language, saying "the Citadel's signals" means all the citadel signals.

The body's functions means all the body functions.

The Codex's laws means all the laws of the Codex

etc.

But I don't know english very well, so perhaps there could be a different naunce in this case.

[Ithurael]

I don't think he conquered the citadel alone... but the citadel could have been taken by the reapers alone, why not.

After the reapers had taken control of the citadel, why shouldn't they remove the prothean alterations? That trick caused them a relevant amount of hassles...

 

From what we know he was the only indoctrinated force we faced. No others were mentioned.

 

I know you want to believe this but again you cannot cite/prove it. This can fall into personal interpretation for now as it was never given much attention in the lore.

 

 

 

We are discussing about that a lot, and we are dissecting every cut-scene and every citation, so probably our perspective is a little bit distorted.

But really, given the plot of ME3, it's pretty irrelevant who/where/what is able to control the citadel arms and the mass relay.

 

I know many people that have played all the ME trilogy and none of them had risen questions like "if the citadel is part of the catalyst, how is it possible that catalyst is controlling the magic elevator and/or the arms in the control ending, if all ME1 plot was abput preventing a reapers agent/pawns to take control of the citadel ????".

Many of them hate the catalyst, yes, but because it was artistically horrid, poorly foreshadowed and despite being the most ancient, omniscient and powerful AI in the galaxy he talks like an idiotic street prophet.

 

HA! I do love the language. I have not heard the expression 'artistically horrid' +10.  And yes, it def was poorly foreshadowed and extremely poorly implemented. I just wish they had an extra year - I know it is a moot point - but I really do. In the end though, I fear it would have Half Life 3 syndrome, no way in hell could it meet the expectations.

 

And technically, I have met many people that have asked the question of the catalyst controlling the arms, that was one of my friends biggest contentions and he just stopped playing after the godkid finished talking (I am not kidding, I was watching him play the vanilla version and the minute the catalyst said "the citadel is part of me" he just went on a rant the size of Trumps ego then turned the game off and swore profusely). People notice different things at different times. I just noticed that there is a scene showing an extreme similarity between Jon Snow to Danaerys Targarian among their followers, on first watch never saw the correlation. When someone brought it to my attention I noticed it.

 

 

They altered the signal that open the relay (from Sovereing)

AND

They altered the Citadel's signals (more than one, possibly ALL of them *- in the same way as "the citadel is part of me" means "all the Citadel is part of me" ). Vigil is not speaking about the signals (there is but one) to open the relay, this is an assumption added by you

He is speaking about the Citadel's signals.

 

The citadel is part of the catalyst

The prothean altered the citadel's signals (possibly all of them)

The prothean altered part of the catalyst's signals (possibly all of them, and at least two of them, the relay signal + another one)

 

Really, it's almost as saying that the Prothean partially hacked the Catalyst. Almost.

 

 

For me is enough, now I can head-canon more happily

Good debate, anyway. I've discover many new interesting things and I have pondered/questioned several other things. So I thank you for your patience and your IMMENSE insights

 

 

* In my language, saying "the Citadel's signals" means all the citadel signals.

The body's functions means all the body functions.

The Codex's laws means all the laws of the Codex

etc.

But I don't know english very well, so perhaps there could be a different naunce in this case.

 

 

I get ya, and I do enjoy your interpretations. While I do try to constantly try to see the difference between facts and personal opinions/interpretations (being in management during an audit will do this especially as you always have a gun to your head). Also, Vigil mentions many times the one signal to open the relay. When the scientists sabotage the citadel we have no idea how many signals there are/were. We definitely know through the material that the arms operation was not sabotaged as the arms work very well.

 

While I can get behind more than one signal, I can see from the material the arms control was not affected - which was one of the primary points of contention. Then again, If the godkid was on the citadel the entire time we never even needed Sovereign. Just needed Saren to get in and overload the sabotage. Then again, ME subverts its own plot by giving Saren a Prothean Obelisk on Virmire (his base for who knows how long) and then telling us he needed the Eden Prime one (initiating the plot). When Vigil tells us both beacons do the same thing/same info. So...I mean COME ON WRITERS! HAHAHA

 

As for the Citadel Signals, we don't know the exact amount, but we do know the only one that was genuinely affected was the ability to open the relay. The rest are never mentioned. From what I have experienced, simply saying the "Citadels signals" does not mean all of them. That is like saying "we altered the database queries" when looking at a database that contains over 50k queries I have a funny feeling the did not do them all and apparently are billing me like they did.

 

But yeah, if it is great for you then great! I love it. Joseph Campbell said "Follow Your Bliss"

 

And I will say it was great to talk to you, if you don't mind I would like to add you as a friend and potentially continue other conversations via PM and of course on BSN formal. I admit I come of as extremely abrasive some/most times and I do try to remediate that. And I am impressed that you have such an aptitude of English.

 

TTFN.

[Dantriges]

EDIT: In fact, upon review we see that the catalyst actually seems to have visual control OVER the citadel arms in ME1 during sovereign's assault. When Asari command try to close the arms (as they have before) something prevents them and they are unable to giving sovereign just enough time go get in and then Saren initiates the close arms command. Just noticed that little diddy.

 

IIRC the Ascension ordered the arms to be closed, but nothing happens. In the next scene we see geth standing over a bunch of dead people in Citadel Control. If you mean that, I think the idea is, that the people who would execute that command are all unable to respond as they are busy with being dead.

[Natureguy85]

Husks are Reaper troops they would need some nominal control of them other wise they don't make very good troops. And yes Saren's control is much different then normal husks.

 

That being said it bend destroyed should not create an energy shock wave that could short out an entire Reaper. A Reaper created to be nearly invulnerable to all damage.

 

There is no implication to the connection. This isn't a set up of someone trying a new diet then getting sick. Were it is possible the new diet had a connection or it could be Jane from accounting inadvertently passing a stomach bug around the office. This is much more guy pulls the trigger of is pistol. The muzzle flashes then the target down range develops a hole.

 

We do know exactly what is going on because EDI pulls the exact same thing in ME 3. If her body were to be destroyed her true self would remain unharmed.

 

 Husks might need controlling, but they could just be mindless killing machines that get dropped and set loose to kill things. It's not as though they perform complex tasks.

 

You have no idea what Sovereign's control of Saren entailed, what it required, or even what goes into making a Reaper, other than organic goop. You have no basis to say what should or shouldn't happen. It might seem silly, but it was fine.

 

That's an interesting point about EDI though. I can't fault the ME1 writer for that though.

 

 

 

 

Oh? What tactic is this I wonder?

 

 

That was a really good read, though I caught him using one himself. But nobody is perfect.

 

 

 

The only way I could understand the lack of action from the Keepers on the signals sent from the Reapers or even the Catalyst was the Protheans cut their ability to receive ANY signal outside their maintaining the Citidel programing, otherwise none of it would have made sense to me.

 

The Catalyst couldn't do anything with the citadel because of this cut, but there is one thing that bothered me, how the Reapers got it to Sol. Did they all grab a hold and warp to Sol?

 

Well, Vigil only mentions the particular signal to open the relay, but will later use the plural, "signals," and say control over the Keepers was broken. I'm not really sure if there are other relevant commands that the Reapers can no longer issue. Arm control seems to be one.

 

Your second question is a good one. Even though:

 

 

When talking with Barla Von in ME1, he will mention the Citadel's engines

 

we had no idea it could go through a Mass Relay. We don't know if can just move around or if it has FTL. It's never discussed. So it being able to go to Earth isn't out of the question, but seems a bit of an asspull.

 

 

 

I don't recall saying anyone was a moron. 

 

I do recall the second part. 

 

I guess I don't see the difference between "providing you enough information in order for things to make sense", and "needing everything spelled out". I mean that was one of the things people were saying ages ago was that they wanted the ending to make sense. It's not about a happy ending, it's not about closure. They just want the ending to make sense. They kept repeating it a lot.

 

I didn't mean anything harsh by it though. 

 

I don't recall if that word was in your posts, but that is the implication of claiming to have understood it while everyone else didn't because they need things spelled out word for word.

If you don't understand the difference between "enough" and "everything," then I suggest you consult a dictionary. You don't understand jack. You just accept whatever was thrown in front of you. This is just you attempting to pass yourself off as more intelligent than everyone else when it really just shows you have low standards.

 

When we said we wanted it to make sense, we meant we wanted it to be logical. We understood what the Catalyst was saying, it was just stupid and didn't fit the story. I know you'll say it did, but you're objectively wrong.

[Obsidian Gryphon]

 

we had no idea it could go through a Mass Relay. We don't know if can just move around or if it has FTL. It's never discussed. So it being able to go to Earth isn't out of the question, but seems a bit of an asspull.

 

 

It should also be noted that residents on the Citadel have preconceptions about the station and the Keepers, etc (as we do about other stuff in RL). Unless they're engineers / scientists / witness that have engaged in maintaining / experiencing the concept in action, anything the residents say can be taken as presumption. 

[Natureguy85]

It should also be noted that residents on the Citadel have preconceptions about the station and the Keepers, etc (as we do about other stuff in RL). Unless they're engineers / scientists / witness that have engaged in maintaining / experiencing the concept in action, anything the residents say can be taken as presumption. 

 

You are right. On the one hand, someone like Barla Von would be somewhat informed about what is known about the station. If he mentions engines, there are likely engines. However, that is just "sci fi talk." It's the space ship/station equivalent of "head to toe." I'm confident we were never supposed to take anything from that line.

[Dantriges]

The Citadel probably needs some kind of engines for position keeping, like maneuvering thrusters on a Space Shuttle but they don´t have to be FTL capable engines.

 

 Husks might need controlling, but they could just be mindless killing machines that get dropped and set loose to kill things. It's not as though they perform complex tasks.

 

They select the prisoners suitable for processing. No idea how complex that task is though.

[Natureguy85]

They select the prisoners suitable for processing. No idea how complex that task is though.

 

Where is that stated or demonstrated? I don't remember that.

[BloodyMares]

Where is that stated or demonstrated? I don't remember that.

Exactly. We only see them attacking random people and killing them.

[Xilizhra]

Didn't the Leviathans build the Citadel? They could easily have installed the Catalyst aboard it without giving it complete control over the station.

[BloodyMares]

Didn't the Leviathans build the Citadel? They could easily have installed the Catalyst aboard it without giving it complete control over the station.

No, Citadel is Reaper technology, not Leviathan. At least that's what the game suggests.

[Natureguy85]

Didn't the Leviathans build the Citadel? They could easily have installed the Catalyst aboard it without giving it complete control over the station.

 

 

No, Citadel is Reaper technology, not Leviathan. At least that's what the game suggests.

 

It's not suggested, it's explicitly stated by Sovereign.

 

"[The Protheans] did not create the Citadel. They did not forge the Mass Relays. They merely found them; the legacy of my kind."

[BloodyMares]

It's not suggested, it's explicitly stated by Sovereign.

Yes, it's just there are people that say "Sovereign is a liar" and all that.

[Dantriges]

Where is that stated or demonstrated? I don't remember that.

 

Secondary Codex Entry The Reapers. We don´t see that because we don´t see the procesing or capturing people stuff either. But as i said how much brainpower a husk actually needs for that is rather vague. It implies that they have other modes than rampaging zombie though.

[Natureguy85]

Secondary Codex Entry The Reapers. We don´t see that because we don´t see the procesing or capturing people stuff either. But as i said how much brainpower a husk actually needs for that is rather vague. It implies that they have other modes than rampaging zombie though.

 

Ah, I found it. It's described as very computer like. Basically they run on a simple logic factor. "Detect X = true, then Harvest." Another entry in there describes them as mindless.

[Xilizhra]

It's not suggested, it's explicitly stated by Sovereign.

 

"[The Protheans] did not create the Citadel. They did not forge the Mass Relays. They merely found them; the legacy of my kind."

Sovereign isn't a reliable source. We know this because its statement of "We have no beginning. We have no end" is physically impossible, and it's clearly willing to speak untruths for the purposes of intimidation, or is simply ignorant of those truths.

[BloodyMares]

Sovereign isn't a reliable source. We know this because its statement of "We have no beginning. We have no end" is physically impossible, and it's clearly willing to speak untruths for the purposes of intimidation, or is simply ignorant of those truths.

Still, it wasn't stated in the game that Sovereign was lying about the Citadel.