3523 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

On the same level of the reapers? ok.

The vast majority of people will never even see a Reaper once the war is over.

[themikefest]

The vast majority of people will never even see a Reaper once the war is over.

What is the vast majority? I would say they would see a reaper after the war.

 

Since the image shows those in London, I'm sure reapers will be seen in all the major cities all over the world

[Xilizhra]

What is the vast majority? I would say they would see a reaper after the war.

 

Since the image shows those in London, I'm sure reapers will be seen in all the major cities all over the world

To clarify: after the war and the reconstruction are over.

[Iakus]

Nah, you can bring Shepard back. Find the corpse of the clone and have the Catayst download Shepard into it, though you might want to make sure it has the right cybernetics first. I'm also quite certain that the entirety of Shepard's essence, not just her memories, were uploaded into the Catalyst, which is why bodily disintegration was required.

 

As for freedom... well, aside from the oodles of lives that the Reapers can save with their reconstruction efforts (faster mass relay repair will be the difference between some systems starving to death and living, and that's before we get into digging through rubble and rescuing survivors and such), not to mention the lack of synthetic genocide, political leadership was never the Catalyst's thing. The Council can be restored, and the Shepard-Catalyst won't be dictating policy, just protecting the galaxy from hostis sapienti generis.

You're not downloading "Shepard" anywhere.  Again, Shepard is dead.  All you have are a bunch of computer files of Shepard's memories.  Even the Catalyst says "You will die"

 

Catalyst: "You will die, you will control us but you will lose everything you have."

 

Shepard: "How can I control the Reapers if I’m dead?"

 

Catalyst: "Your corporeal form will be dissolved. But your thoughts and even your memories will continue. You will no longer be organic. Your connection to your kind will be lost"

 

Shepard loses everything that made Shep human.  That made Shepard Shepard.

 

That Shepard's essence" thing?  Yeah, that's gone with the disintegrating body.

 

As for freedom:  Hey, I'm all for "no synthetic genocide" but I am vehemently against turning the galaxy into Cthulhu's Police state.

 

 Is not this simpler? Is this not your natural state? It's the unspoken truth of humanity, that you crave subjugation.  The bright lure of freedom diminishes your life's joy in a mad scramble for power, for identity.  You were made to be ruled.  In the end, you will always kneel.

[Xilizhra]

Shepard loses everything that made Shep human.  That made Shepard Shepard.

 

That Shepard's essence" thing?  Yeah, that's gone with the disintegrating body.

And the Catalyst contains all of this in its own memory. If it didn't, there would be no reason whatsoever to disintegrate Shepard. All of the data of what made Shepard Shepard can be read and used to restore Shepard. And if you're worried about continuity of consciousness, that's a moot point, because Shepard already died once, and the Shepard who would die here only existed for a year or so.

 

 

As for freedom:  Hey, I'm all for "no synthetic genocide" but I am vehemently against turning the galaxy into Cthulhu's Police state.

 

 Is not this simpler? Is this not your natural state? It's the unspoken truth of humanity, that you crave subjugation.  The bright lure of freedom diminishes your life's joy in a mad scramble for power, for identity.  You were made to be ruled.  In the end, you will always kneel.

That requires many assumptions, starting with one that the Shepard-Catalyst would seize complete political power. Protecting the people of the galaxy doesn't require crushing their freedom.

[Iakus]

And the Catalyst contains all of this in its own memory. If it didn't, there would be no reason whatsoever to disintegrate Shepard. All of the data of what made Shepard Shepard can be read and used to restore Shepard. And if you're worried about continuity of consciousness, that's a moot point, because Shepard already died once, and the Shepard who would die here only existed for a year or so.

 

There was no reason whatsoever to disintegrate Shepard (aside from "feelz")  The Catalyst says what is preserved:  thoughts and memories.  

 

 

That requires many assumptions, starting with one that the Shepard-Catalyst would seize complete political power. Protecting the people of the galaxy doesn't require crushing their freedom.

How is the Shepalyst gonna "protect" the people of the galaxy without the threat of retribution if people harm each other?

[Xilizhra]

There was no reason whatsoever to disintegrate Shepard (aside from "feelz")  The Catalyst says what is preserved:  thoughts and memories.

Which, absent a body, are what matters, and they're what can be placed back into the clone.

 

 

How is the Shepalyst gonna "protect" the people of the galaxy without the threat of retribution if people harm each other?

The threat of retribution if people harm each other is the cornerstone of civilization; this is not a new or frightening concept.

[Iakus]

Which, absent a body, are what matters, and they're what can be placed back into the clone.

 

Untrue.  Look at what happens if you swap out quantum blueboxes for AIs.  You get the same memories, but a new personality.

 

 

The threat of retribution if people harm each other is the cornerstone of civilization; this is not a new or frightening concept.

So you admit the Reapers would seize power.  Good.

[Xilizhra]

Untrue.  Look at what happens if you swap out quantum blueboxes for AIs.  You get the same memories, but a new personality.

That's if you have only memories. Transferring the same thoughts requires that the hardware be altered as well as the software. Thankfully, the Catalyst has complete knowledge of both.

 

 

So you admit the Reapers would seize power.  Good.

That's overly reductive. Of course, they'll have the most power just by virtue of being the nastiest things in the galaxy, but they won't start dictating to people how to live their lives.

[BloodyMares]

Which, absent a body, are what matters, and they're what can be placed back into the clone.

Impossible. An organic being's personality is determined by its mortality, life span, needs, fears, emotions (hormones that our body produces) etc. If you remove the body from the equation, the personality will not be the same. Look for example at Dr. Manhattan from Watchmen. He stopped caring about humanity because he became immortal and all-powerful.

[congokong]

I do happen to think the ME3 ending was brilliant; specifically the reapers' motivations. They actually give an argument that makes you wonder if the atrocities the reapers commit are truly necessary in the very big picture. And I see where the catalyst is coming from. Synthetics are practically far superior to organics, and will inevitably come into conflict with them (since organics cannot even live peacefully among themselves). When that happens, synthetics will win, as they have through all the cycles the catalyst observed before resorting to the reapers.

 

I see the shadow of the hammer falling down with the geth and EDI. The geth are continuously evolving. The only reason they were defeatable in ME3 was because they were never intentionally designed to be AIs. That was their greatest limitation and saving grace for the quarian's war. With those reaper upgrades, however, they had evolved to a point where, if they wished to, likely nothing could oppose them; at least in time.

 

And EDI is a perfect example of what the catalyst says about technology having limits, and resorting to synthetics to improve upon those limits. That is exactly why TIM created EDI; to improve upon the Normandy's limits by installing an AI.

 

What is most fascinating is how the current order where organics rule is created, and allowed, by the reapers. Yet ironically, without reaper intervention, synthetics would have ruled the galaxy ages ago. All organics would have been either killed, enslaved, or kept under scrutiny for study; not so different from how humans treat animals.

[Xilizhra]

Impossible. An organic being's personality is determined by its mortality, life span, needs, fears, emotions (hormones that our body produces) etc. If you remove the body from the equation, the personality will not be the same. Look for example at Dr. Manhattan from Watchmen. He stopped caring about humanity because he became immortal and all-powerful.

Right, but the clone body would have all of that.

[BloodyMares]

Right, but the clone body would have all of that.

If only Shepard's personality is being uploaded directly into clone's body like in Avatar. If he is being converted into digital world first then no, Shepard dies.

[Xilizhra]

If only Shepard's personality is being uploaded directly into clone's body like in Avatar. If he is being converted into digital world first then no, Shepard dies.

It'd be missing continuity of consciousness, this is true, but that already happened with Shepard once before.

[dorktainian]

But there's new DNA and it's all the same. Everyone can eat everything now. Krogan will be happy. All those kids will get hungry, you know.

Yes, you can think of actual physiological problems but you're not supposed to. Everything is great because the writers say so.

 

so my Krogan mate can pop down to my house for a bit of a chowdown after knocking me out?  

 

In a game series about strength through diversity, i just find it odd anyone would defend the intergalactic abuse that is synthesis.

[Iakus]

That's if you have only memories. Transferring the same thoughts requires that the hardware be altered as well as the software. Thankfully, the Catalyst has complete knowledge of both.

 

 

citation needed.  The Catalyst only mentions memories.  And explicitly says Shepard will lose that connection to organic life.

 

 

That's overly reductive. Of course, they'll have the most power just by virtue of being the nastiest things in the galaxy, but they won't start dictating to people how to live their lives.

If they want everyone to live in peace, they will have to start dictating to people how to live their lives.

 

What worlds which race can colonize.  What technologies should be used and which should be destroyed (You really think the Shepalyst will allow the races to develop weapons it can't counter?) It is entirely plausible that it will seek out and eliminate individuals that are threats to the stability ofthe galaxy, either through assassination or indoctrination "for the greater good"

 

Control is, in a nutshell, Project Insight.

[Natureguy85]

Nah, you can bring Shepard back. Find the corpse of the clone and have the Catayst download Shepard into it, though you might want to make sure it has the right cybernetics first. I'm also quite certain that the entirety of Shepard's essence, not just her memories, were uploaded into the Catalyst, which is why bodily disintegration was required.

 

As for freedom... well, aside from the oodles of lives that the Reapers can save with their reconstruction efforts (faster mass relay repair will be the difference between some systems starving to death and living, and that's before we get into digging through rubble and rescuing survivors and such), not to mention the lack of synthetic genocide, political leadership was never the Catalyst's thing. The Council can be restored, and the Shepard-Catalyst won't be dictating policy, just protecting the galaxy from hostis sapienti generis.

 

Yeah, plenty of dictators claim that they should be given power because of all the benefits and advancements they can bring. I know you don't mean it this way, but when I read your defense of Control, I think of this:

 

 

 

 

Before the EC, you could decide for yourself that Shepard-Catalyst won't be that involved or active, but the EC epilogues pretty much smash that idea to pieces. Not only will the Reapers be around for a long time rebuilding everything, but Shepard speaks as someone who isn't going to simply watch from a distance, but actually push an agenda, particularly Renegade.

[Natureguy85]

so my Krogan mate can pop down to my house for a bit of a chowdown after knocking me out?  

 

In a game series about strength through diversity, i just find it odd anyone would defend the intergalactic abuse that is synthesis.

 

Because people aren't paying attention to themes and just like the whitewashed versions of these things that the writing presents.

 

I do like that you use the same phrase I do.

[Iakus]

Yeah, plenty of dictators claim that they should be given power because of all the benefits and advancements they can bring. I know you don't mean it this way, but when I read your defense of Control, I think of this:

 

 

 

 

Before the EC, you could decide for yourself that Shepard-Catalyst won't be that involved or active, but the EC epilogues pretty much smash that idea to pieces. Not only will the Reapers be around for a long time rebuilding everything, but Shepard speaks as someone who isn't going to simply watch from a distance, but actually push an agenda, particularly Renegade.

 

"There are always men like you"

 

Loki:  SO BE IT!!!! 

 

[iM3GTR]

I don't understand why they needed the crucible anyway. Why didn't they just shoot the glowing orange weak-spots?

[oddball_bg]

I do happen to think the ME3 ending was brilliant; specifically the reapers' motivations. They actually give an argument that makes you wonder if the atrocities the reapers commit are truly necessary in the very big picture. And I see where the catalyst is coming from. Synthetics are practically far superior to organics, and will inevitably come into conflict with them (since organics cannot even live peacefully among themselves). When that happens, synthetics will win, as they have through all the cycles the catalyst observed before resorting to the reapers.

 

I see the shadow of the hammer falling down with the geth and EDI. The geth are continuously evolving. The only reason they were defeatable in ME3 was because they were never intentionally designed to be AIs. That was their greatest limitation and saving grace for the quarian's war. With those reaper upgrades, however, they had evolved to a point where, if they wished to, likely nothing could oppose them; at least in time.

 

And EDI is a perfect example of what the catalyst says about technology having limits, and resorting to synthetics to improve upon those limits. That is exactly why TIM created EDI; to improve upon the Normandy's limits by installing an AI.

 

What is most fascinating is how the current order where organics rule is created, and allowed, by the reapers. Yet ironically, without reaper intervention, synthetics would have ruled the galaxy ages ago. All organics would have been either killed, enslaved, or kept under scrutiny for study; not so different from how humans treat animals.

Wow,my thoughts exactly!Couldn't said it better myself!Exactly how i felt!

[Natureguy85]

I don't understand why they needed the crucible anyway. Why didn't they just shoot the glowing orange weak-spots?

 

for massive damage!

[Abedsbrother]

I don't understand why they needed the crucible anyway. Why didn't they just shoot the glowing orange weak-spots?

For MAYHEM!!! 

[ImaginaryMatter]

I do happen to think the ME3 ending was brilliant; specifically the reapers' motivations. They actually give an argument that makes you wonder if the atrocities the reapers commit are truly necessary in the very big picture. And I see where the catalyst is coming from. Synthetics are practically far superior to organics, and will inevitably come into conflict with them (since organics cannot even live peacefully among themselves). When that happens, synthetics will win, as they have through all the cycles the catalyst observed before resorting to the reapers.

 

The story itself doesn't make that argument though. Once again I feel like this is mistaking ME's presentation of AI with a common, mainstream perception of them. For the most part the whole series largely subverts this perception -- even back in ME1, where the Geth serve as the lowest rung of mooks for religious type reasons.

 

Imagine a player who's first experience with AI in fiction was ME. Where would they get this idea that AI will win? In the player's interaction's with AI the conflicts either end up defeated (usually by a group of three people on foot) or in sincere cooperation. Even the EDI comparison isn't a great example, the game routinely and explicitly puts limits on what she will be able to achieve. It's not even a major part of her arc.

 

Even the endings before or after the EC don't seem to agree with the Catalyst.

[oddball_bg]

The story itself doesn't make that argument though. Once again I feel like this is mistaking ME's presentation of AI with a common, mainstream perception of them. For the most part the whole series largely subverts this perception -- even back in ME1, where the Geth serve as the lowest rung of mooks for religious type reasons.

 

Imagine a player who's first experience with AI in fiction was ME. Where would they get this idea that AI will win? In the player's interaction's with AI the conflicts either end up defeated (usually by a group of three people on foot) or in sincere cooperation. Even the EDI comparison isn't a great example, the game routinely and explicitly puts limits on what she will be able to achieve. It's not even a major part of her arc.

 

Even the endings before or after the EC don't seem to agree with the Catalyst.

You are underestimating people's IQ(not blaming you for that,if I have to be perfectly honest,but still...)!

 

"Imagine a player who's first experience with AI in fiction was ME"

 

So what?Even if it's someone's first experience with AI in fiction,they can still make deductive opinions about the matter.