3569 réponses à ce sujet

[BloodyMares]

And yet if Thane is recruited or dies someone else shows up to take his place. You have to actively go out of your way to prevent Thane or the Salarian Captain from showing up to protect the Council Member. But even if you don't recruit or kill Thane and have it set up so the Captain isn't there to take the bullet you still head to the C-Sec office. You still confront Leng. Someone still dies and you still chase after him and prevent him from killing the rest of the Council members. The interaction can change once you reach them but at the end of the day you still prevent the coup attempt. If you pick the Quarians, Geth or make Peace the events that follow in the game still play out the same. Thessia is still attacked, You still have to go to Sanctuary then the rest of the missions. Regardless of what you choose the game still plays the same just with slight shift in dialogue.

 

That is the point you are missing when I make my statement.

 

But it was the Geth

 

http://masseffect.wi..._Distress_Call

 

http://masseffect.wi...m/wiki/Antibaar

 

Um the entire story about the Quarians is based on them losing to the Geth in an all out fight. Showing the superiority of Synthetics over organics when both are fighting to the death with relatively equal technological abilities. If you have gotten to the 3rd game and need an example of organics being defeated by synthetics then you really really missed a lot.

Sigh. Why is there an option to broker a peace between the quarians and the geth? Why put it there? The Catalyst says that it's impossible for organics and synthetics to co-exist peacefully. Therefore it should've been impossible to broker a peace. Geth should've killed the quarians. But that happens only in one occasion and if Shepard allowes that.

Sure, it was the Geth. But the Heretics. Why did you ignore my Legion quote? I repeat: "We are all Geth and we have not met you". All Shepard's interactions with the Geth in ME1 were with the Heretics, not the true Geth. Why would you blame all Geth for what the Heretics did? They are 2 different factions. Xenophobe.

Except the quarians weren't defeated. They were forced into exile, sure, but they survived, got strong in 200 years and were ready to retaliate. It doesn't really support that "synthetics will destroy all organics" claim.

[gothpunkboy89]

Again, Vigil's information doesn't do much for what is left of Mass Effect. He just tells you what Saren's plan is. And yes, time between the need for the information and when it is provided is part of the context. You declaring it otherwise doesn't make it so. As you say, Vigil tells you more about the reaper plan, but what did that change for your actions? Were you not going to stop them before?

 

You have a point that Vigil probably shouldn't know some things he knows, but I acknowledge that and see that he knows just to tell the player. It's a minor problem and I accept it to advance the story. As for the data hack, I just saw that as a direct link overriding the wireless connection or something like that. Vigil does say it is temporary, so Sovereign is going to be able to overcome that delay. However, the idea that you should be more suspicious of Vigil than the Catalyst is preposterous. You're just being silly.

 

You have it backwards. It's not that I hold what I do and don't like to different standards, it's that I do and don't like things based on how they succeed or fail.  You have no clue, nor do I, what power it takes to erect the forcefield vs run stasis pods. Even guessing, we'd be complaining to the writers about their details, not using that as evidence for Shepard to distrust Vigil.  A more fun question is why Vigil didn't use the field to stop Saren. Maybe Saren would have found and destroyed him or something. Again, it's an obvious plot hook.

 

No Vigil exists to inform you the Reaper's plan and what will happen if the Citadel is allowed to activate. It provides the back story for the Reapers and how they caused the Protheans to disappear. Which was the galaxy's big question before the Reapers came to light. Much in the same way the Catalyst gives a history and reason behind why this started in the first place.  And Vigil's statement does change your actions. Sovergin is steps away from winning and unleashing the Reapers and you have the Calvary coming. Do you risk losing ships to save the Council and the maybe hundred or so crew members on the Destiny Ascension and risk losing to many ships protecting it to be able to stop Sovereign. Or do you leave them to be destroyed seeing the lose of a couple hundred crew members and the Council members as a worth while trade off to stop Sovereign. Because if Sovereign wins trillions more will die. The information Vigil gives you is how you make that choice because you are shown what the stakes are.

 

Much like after everything across all the game all the incomplete talks and guessing with all the Reapers the Catalyst finally fills you in on the reason behind it and the threat that exists and then you choose how you want to proceed. Time between the information and when that information you are given and the choice you make in game based on that doesn't make the longer one better. That is a lot like saying someone wishing you a happy birthday 4 weeks after your birthday is better then someone wishing you a happy birthday on your birthday.

 

You don't know what a plot hook is do you? A plot hook is something that takes place at the start of the book to get people interested to keep reading it. At that point you are already well hooked to the plot of the game. You are literally chasing down the bad guy to stop him from doing bad guy things and if you stop him the day is saved. When out of no where they stone wall you and provide a lot of exposition to explain things that weren't explained before. Which is exactly the same thing you complain the Catalyst is. But in your mind one is ok and the other is terrible writing. You fail to apply the same criticism evenly across the story. You cherry pick what you like and don't like and base if off that. Then you claim bad story writing with poor logic or inconsistencies when the same exist else were but is perfectly acceptable to you there because you like that one but you don't like the other.

 

Yes, mandatory events are canon, optional ones are not. We already discussed that. No, Arrival and LotSB are not canon because in those, Shepard goes and does those things. The destruction of the Alpha Relay and Liara becoming the Shadow Broker, the end results of those DLCs are canon, but Shepard's involvement is not, at least as far as the Trilogy goes. They may become Canon for Andromeda.

 

Does the Alpha Relay get destroyed if you don't play it? Does Liara still become Shadow Broker if you don't play it? The answer is yes and yes. Which means both those events are canon events. How the events unfold can alter depending on if you play it or not. But not the fact they happened. Which using that logic even if Shepard wasn't the one that found Leviathan someone else would have and they would have learned about it and recruited them and Shepard would have been informed about it even if just in a text message.

 

People still like the stories and characters. They also do a lot of reboots and "alternate universes". People roll their eyes when these things happen. Just because something is popular doesn't mean those fans like every aspect of it. This question is childish.

 

And yes, they can work, but it's harder to pull off and the change must be addressed. The best example of it working is Vader as Luke's Father in The Empire Strikes Back. That is a retcon, but that change served the story very well and made it better, setting up the excellent events on Bespin and the 2nd Death Star. However, in Return of the Jedi, Luke and Obi-Wan discussed what had been said earlier and justified it. The characters never address the issue in Mass Effect.

 

Yes and each one of those reboots and alternative universes can be used to alter the character from a little to a lot.

 

Vader being Luke's father isn't really retcon more of a twist. Since according to Lucas he has been considering the idea since filming of New Hope started but wasn't concrete until Empire Strikes Back. The real retcon would be Luke and Leia being siblings. Because in the extended universe across I want to say a couple books or maybe it was comics they were set up as a romantic interest that would be pulled apart by the war. And makes those all the more creepy reading when you already know they are siblings if you have seen Return of the Jedi.

 

Exactly retroactively altering old information. It wasn't that something was misunderstood and now we understand it, it was that something was changed.

 

Wasn't altering old information it was adding new information. Done in the method of misunderstanding. Geth willingly letting the Quarians go isn't retroactively altering old information it is providing new information that no one knew before hand. The Quarians assumed they managed to escape the Geth who were trying to kill all of them. Learning that the Quarians were willing to kill other Quarians who were helping the Geth during the lead up to the Morning War doesn't suddenly alter everything that happened to them. New information is gained in each game because no single game tells the whole story.

 

Then they need to alter the story to suit their medium. Leaving out key information because of cost is not a good excuse. Also, being a visual medium allows for information to be presented in multiple ways.

 

But it is present but you complain because it wasn't paraded in front of you accompanied by a marching band and fire works. You demand it be shown and not told when they tell you  all the stuff you complain about not being shown.

 

Or to put this another way I tell you something is on the top shelf of a cabinet by the sink in the kitchen. You then demand I show you were it is rather then tell you because showing is the only way for you to be able to understand it.

[Natureguy85]

But it was the Geth

 

http://masseffect.wi..._Distress_Call

 

http://masseffect.wi...m/wiki/Antibaar

 

The first one is them mimicking distress call, but I don't think the Geth intentionally lured the Marines onto the Thresher Maw nest in the second. Since the group was killed by Geth weapons, the Geth attacked. It was probably a situation just like Distress Call. Then the Geth were surprised and destroyed by the Thresher Maw, providing a certain kind of justice. Had the Geth lured the Marines onto the nest, why would they go in it themselves?

 

 

 

Um the entire story about the Quarians is based on them losing to the Geth in an all out fight. Showing the superiority of Synthetics over organics when both are fighting to the death with relatively equal technological abilities. If you have gotten to the 3rd game and need an example of organics being defeated by synthetics then you really really missed a lot.

 

Sure, but that's a small scale example. The Geth were never a threat to all organics.

 

 

No Vigil exists to inform you the Reaper's plan and what will happen if the Citadel is allowed to activate. It provides the back story for the Reapers and how they caused the Protheans to disappear. Which was the galaxy's big question before the Reapers came to light. Much in the same way the Catalyst gives a history and reason behind why this started in the first place.  And Vigil's statement does change your actions. Sovergin is steps away from winning and unleashing the Reapers and you have the Calvary coming. Do you risk losing ships to save the Council and the maybe hundred or so crew members on the Destiny Ascension and risk losing to many ships protecting it to be able to stop Sovereign. Or do you leave them to be destroyed seeing the lose of a couple hundred crew members and the Council members as a worth while trade off to stop Sovereign. Because if Sovereign wins trillions more will die. The information Vigil gives you is how you make that choice because you are shown what the stakes are.

 

Much like after everything across all the game all the incomplete talks and guessing with all the Reapers the Catalyst finally fills you in on the reason behind it and the threat that exists and then you choose how you want to proceed. Time between the information and when that information you are given and the choice you make in game based on that doesn't make the longer one better. That is a lot like saying someone wishing you a happy birthday 4 weeks after your birthday is better then someone wishing you a happy birthday on your birthday.

 

You don't know what a plot hook is do you? A plot hook is something that takes place at the start of the book to get people interested to keep reading it. At that point you are already well hooked to the plot of the game. You are literally chasing down the bad guy to stop him from doing bad guy things and if you stop him the day is saved. When out of no where they stone wall you and provide a lot of exposition to explain things that weren't explained before. Which is exactly the same thing you complain the Catalyst is. But in your mind one is ok and the other is terrible writing. You fail to apply the same criticism evenly across the story. You cherry pick what you like and don't like and base if off that. Then you claim bad story writing with poor logic or inconsistencies when the same exist else were but is perfectly acceptable to you there because you like that one but you don't like the other.

 

Yes and all of that is interesting but doesn't affect your actions other than providing the means to delay Sovereign at the console. Sovereign already told us the stakes on Virmire if we didn't already know from what Shepard and Liara determine from the Beacon visions.

 

The analogies remain painfully bad. The time between isn't necessarily better or worse, but it is a difference.

 

I know what a plot hook is. Perhaps "sequel bait" would make more sense to you.

 

 

Yes, mandatory events are canon, optional ones are not. We already discussed that. No, Arrival and LotSB are not canon because in those, Shepard goes and does those things. The destruction of the Alpha Relay and Liara becoming the Shadow Broker, the end results of those DLCs are canon, but Shepard's involvement is not, at least as far as the Trilogy goes. They may become Canon for Andromeda.

 

Does the Alpha Relay get destroyed if you don't play it? Does Liara still become Shadow Broker if you don't play it? The answer is yes and yes. Which means both those events are canon events. How the events unfold can alter depending on if you play it or not. But not the fact they happened. Which using that logic even if Shepard wasn't the one that found Leviathan someone else would have and they would have learned about it and recruited them and Shepard would have been informed about it even if just in a text message.

 

Gee, I said that didn't I? Why yes, I said exactly that! However, the part about Leviathan is false. Firstly, it isn't a matter of logic. Arrival and LotSB are ME2 DLCs and ME3 accounts for them. This is how we know the ultimate outcomes and their status as canon. Leviathan is an ME3 DLC and we never hear anything about it. Secondly, it's totally possible that someone followed Bryson's research and got to 2181 Despoina, but that person would have been captured by Leviathan to "remain here as a servant to [their] needs." Leviathan is convinced by Shepard because "his confidence is singular," "it is clear why the Reapers perceive [him] as a threat," and his "victories are more than a product of chance." Finally Shepard is special again and his ability to convince the Leviathan is based on his past deeds.

[Natureguy85]

Vader being Luke's father isn't really retcon more of a twist. Since according to Lucas he has been considering the idea since filming of New Hope started but wasn't concrete until Empire Strikes Back. The real retcon would be Luke and Leia being siblings. Because in the extended universe across I want to say a couple books or maybe it was comics they were set up as a romantic interest that would be pulled apart by the war. And makes those all the more creepy reading when you already know they are siblings if you have seen Return of the Jedi.
 

 

It's a retcon. Even giving Lucas the benefit of the doubt for honesty, the fact that he says he was still just "considering it" means it wasn't the case when the first movie was made. At the time, Obi-Wan's statement was straightforward and literal. This is well known among Star Wars fans, critics, analysts, historians etc. Vader killed Luke's father. Leia and Luke being siblings might be a retcon, but there's no evidence in the movies for or against that. I don't give much weight to side media, but when were those EU stories written in comparison to the films?

 

 

 

Wasn't altering old information it was adding new information. Done in the method of misunderstanding. Geth willingly letting the Quarians go isn't retroactively altering old information it is providing new information that no one knew before hand. The Quarians assumed they managed to escape the Geth who were trying to kill all of them. Learning that the Quarians were willing to kill other Quarians who were helping the Geth during the lead up to the Morning War doesn't suddenly alter everything that happened to them. New information is gained in each game because no single game tells the whole story.

 

If the information on the Quarians is a retcon or not depends on if the ME1 writing team wanted Tali to be right in her telling of history or not, or if they wanted it left in the air. But even if it is a retcon, it's actually an example of one done pretty well. The Quarians, having lost their historical recordings, now rely on Oral Tradition. The Quarians alive at the time of Exile are long dead and the current population is several generations removed. It makes sense that the details would be lost in favor of a more favorable telling of the story. This fits well with Legion's comments about "homeworld" being more of a concept than the actual planet in the Quarian mind.

 

 

 

But it is present but you complain because it wasn't paraded in front of you accompanied by a marching band and fire works. You demand it be shown and not told when they tell you  all the stuff you complain about not being shown.

 

Or to put this another way I tell you something is on the top shelf of a cabinet by the sink in the kitchen. You then demand I show you were it is rather then tell you because showing is the only way for you to be able to understand it.

 

It is presented in a last minute info dump that goes against what we have been shown previously.

In another analogy fail, "show don't tell" is about method and one being more interesting than the other, not merely imparting bland information. In keeping with what I just said, if you tell me something is on the top shelf after repeatedly showing me that you keep it on the bottom shelf, I'm going to question what you told me.

[gothpunkboy89]

The first one is them mimicking distress call, but I don't think the Geth intentionally lured the Marines onto the Thresher Maw nest in the second. Since the group was killed by Geth weapons, the Geth attacked. It was probably a situation just like Distress Call. Then the Geth were surprised and destroyed by the Thresher Maw, providing a certain kind of justice. Had the Geth lured the Marines onto the nest, why would they go in it themselves?

 

And yet Geth still lured an Alliance group in this case Shepard into a trap that would kill anyone else. With the added bonus if you get to close to the ship there is a mine that goes off.  They lured them there with an ambush and a booby trap. The Maw you are probably right. Lured them attacked them then a Maw showed up drawn by the gun fire and took out the Geth.

 

Sure, but that's a small scale example. The Geth were never a threat to all organics.

 

And yet the Council wasn't willing to go to war against them to regain the Quarian worlds and remove the big potential threat they pose. Hence why despite all the problems between Batarian and Humans neither were willing to come to blows. Because both were large and powerful enough to cause more damage to each other then either would gain from any military victory.

 

Yes and all of that is interesting but doesn't affect your actions other than providing the means to delay Sovereign at the console. Sovereign already told us the stakes on Virmire if we didn't already know from what Shepard and Liara determine from the Beacon visions.

 

The analogies remain painfully bad. The time between isn't necessarily better or worse, but it is a difference.

 

I know what a plot hook is. Perhaps "sequel bait" would make more sense to you.

 

But it does effect it you were already going to stop Sovereign in ME 1 and you were already going to attempt to stop the harvest in ME 3. The information from the info dump effects your choices leading up to that. In ME 1 as it is the first game in the series the choice is relatively small. Save the Council or leave them to die to save the galaxy. ME 3 since it is the final game the choice is much bigger to match that fact.

 

You complain about my analogy but your basis of logic is info dump right into choice = bad. But info dump + combat that has no basis on info dump or choice= good simply because it wasn't right after it. I quite literally based your logic track on a real world set up and you called it stupid. Which really goes to show the inherent problem with that set up you have created.

 

And yet that wasn't a sequel bait either. The sequel bait is the final lines by Shepard were he/she states something along the lines of the Reapers are still out there and he/she is going to find a way to stop them. So you used a term the wrong way and then tried to apply something else to fit to try and cover for it. Which still doesn't apply at all. Because a hook is a short set up designed to gain the reader's interest in the story. Shepard stating that the Reapers are still out there and needs to be stopped is the hook to want to see the next game.

 

Gee, I said that didn't I? Why yes, I said exactly that! However, the part about Leviathan is false. Firstly, it isn't a matter of logic. Arrival and LotSB are ME2 DLCs and ME3 accounts for them. This is how we know the ultimate outcomes and their status as canon. Leviathan is an ME3 DLC and we never hear anything about it. Secondly, it's totally possible that someone followed Bryson's research and got to 2181 Despoina, but that person would have been captured by Leviathan to "remain here as a servant to [their] needs." Leviathan is convinced by Shepard because "his confidence is singular," "it is clear why the Reapers perceive [him] as a threat," and his "victories are more than a product of chance." Finally Shepard is special again and his ability to convince the Leviathan is based on his past deeds.

 

We hear nothing about Arrival and LotSB in ME 2 yet it is still canon as well. If there was an ME 4 continuing the same story as ME 3 were the Reapers were not defeated yet the same set up would have happened with all DLC. So yea this is a matter of logic. The following game takes the previous game's DLC into consideration when dealing with the story. The only alteration is a few lines of dialogue depending on if the player did it or didn't. You ignore a trend in the series and attempt to justify it because there is no 4th installment of the same story to show other wise. As well the logic in ME 2 is the only reason Arrival and LotSB happened is because Shepard helped. Yet in ME 3 Shepard's direct hand in those matters isn't 100% required anymore. The main point the Leviathans were getting at is that Shepard is more then just lucky. There are so many other ways to get that point across to them. The easiest way would be to have Shepard's mother be the one to find Leviathan as she would know her son better then anyone else. And if you have the orphan set up then having someone who was on the Normandy at one point. Nameless crewman #12 that you would never know was gone could achieve the same thing. Showing Leviathan that it wasn't just dumb luck and Shepard wasn't just falling ass over ****** backwards into victories.

 

So again if ME 4 had existed you would have gotten a similar treatment with C-Sec dealing with clone issue before it could get started, Omega would have joined thanks to the Asari Government sending Huntresses to help take back Omega and someone else would have found and convinced Leviathan to join the war and you would read about this in a Codex entry meaning the in game Shepard would already be aware of this information since he is rather important to the over all strategy. So trying to justify your statements by saying the game DLC isn't referenced in the game that the DLC was created for is just silly.

 

It's a retcon. Even giving Lucas the benefit of the doubt for honesty, the fact that he says he was still just "considering it" means it wasn't the case when the first movie was made. At the time, Obi-Wan's statement was straightforward and literal. This is well known among Star Wars fans, critics, analysts, historians etc. Vader killed Luke's father. Leia and Luke being siblings might be a retcon, but there's no evidence in the movies for or against that. I don't give much weight to side media, but when were those EU stories written in comparison to the films?

 

Well then you know the hopes for Star Wars being even vaugly popular were so low that the studio allowed Lucas to keep the majority to all the merchandising rights to the film if I remember right. So the story was set up to be rather self contained unlike all the subsequent movies. The Luke/Leia stuff was written in the time between New Hope and post Empire Strikes back. All that was ended once production on Return of the Jedi was started. And you should give weight to the side media because it was all but a small percentage considered canon. Least until Disney got a hold of it then 95% of it isn't official canon anymore. How ever Disney is creating their own official canon using side media like books and comics and tv shows. Star Wars Rebels is official Star Wars canon now.

 

If the information on the Quarians is a retcon or not depends on if the ME1 writing team wanted Tali to be right in her telling of history or not, or if they wanted it left in the air. But even if it is a retcon, it's actually an example of one done pretty well. The Quarians, having lost their historical recordings, now rely on Oral Tradition. The Quarians alive at the time of Exile are long dead and the current population is several generations removed. It makes sense that the details would be lost in favor of a more favorable telling of the story. This fits well with Legion's comments about "homeworld" being more of a concept than the actual planet in the Quarian mind.

 

And that is exactly how the rest of the information is presented. At no point do they every say with any important information that this pen is and always will be blue. Then the next game they are declaring it absolutely always has and always will be green. It was only ever this is blue. Now this is a slightly darker shade of blue or slightly lighter shade of blue. Much like the Quarians went from this is blue to this is a slightly darker shade of blue.

 

It is presented in a last minute info dump that goes against what we have been shown previously.

In another analogy fail, "show don't tell" is about method and one being more interesting than the other, not merely imparting bland information. In keeping with what I just said, if you tell me something is on the top shelf after repeatedly showing me that you keep it on the bottom shelf, I'm going to question what you told me.

 

But it goes against nothing that has been shown previously. You want it to so you perceive it to go against it. Sadly perception is something that no writing staff can account for. Was it you that I brought up Fahrenheit 451 with? How Bradbury wrote it to tell one story but people's personal perceptions altered it to be all about censorship to the point people were point blank telling the author of the book he was wrong. You are that person right now.

 

Geth went from simplistic VI's capable of only doing programmed tasks into self aware beings who started to evolve, learn and grow on their own. Fast enough that their creator's didn't react in time to stop it. Which lead to a war which ended with the near Genocide of the Quarian race. They then decided to kill all organics that got near them. They presented such a threat that the Council rather then attempt to eliminate them simply choose to not go to war with them and simply have the various races pay out the ass in credits to maintain large fleets near their boarder to Geth space to act as warning of any invasion attempts. Then a small portion of over all Geth lead by Sovereign actively attacked organics and did a fairly decent job of curb stomping everyone they went up against.  The Geth that didn't attacked were on the verge of mastering Dyson Sphere technology which is really advanced stuff as well as creating ships capable out out matching all other organic ones. The fact even with what 6 ships from the Quarian Heavy Fleet shooting at Geth Flagship and Shepard still had time to shoot his way out and get to a Geth Fighter before it blew up shows how damn sturdy that ship was.

 

The only reason they break the isolation is simply to get information from Shepard about the Old Machines so they can better fight them. Legion didn't leave the collective to form a bond with organics or work with them for mutual benefit. He left to find Shepard simply for the betterment of Geth and no one else. This continues in ME 3 were Legion only asks Shepard for help because it can not deal with the Reapers on their own. If they could hold off the Reapers without outside help the Geth would have left all organics to their fate.

 

Your "proof" is based on the idea that fighting a common enemy automatically makes everyone best friends for life. This isn't remotely true when you apply the real world to anything. But again you want to perceive it as different then the game shows so to you it isn't consistent. Sadly this is something no one is capable of altering but yourself. And why I do feel a lot of the flak BioWare got about this game is undeserved.

[themikefest]

And yet if Thane is recruited or dies someone else shows up to take his place. You have to actively go out of your way to prevent Thane or the Salarian Captain from showing up to protect the Council Member.

Not really. If a player doesn't recruit Thane in ME2, he/she has no idea it would lead to the possible death of the councilor. Most of my playthroughs I don't recruit Thane since I already have 8 squadmates to go through the omega 4 relay

 

With Kirrahe, its not hard to have him die in ME1.  It depends on what dialogue and actions are  chosen. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of folks didn't know he could be saved on their first playthrough

[Natureguy85]

Not really. If a player doesn't recruit Thane in ME2, he/she has no idea it would lead to the possible death of the councilor. Most of my playthroughs I don't recruit Thane since I already have 8 squadmates to go through the omega 4 relay

 

With Kirrahe, its not hard to have him die in ME1.  It depends on what dialogue and actions are  chosen. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of folks didn't know he could be saved on their first playthrough

 

Ha, that's probably because they hide him in the cargo hold. I was very surprised to see them down there when I left Kaidan (with his Salarian team) to die in order to secure the bomb site.

[dorktainian]

So to put a long story short it allows the Reapers to manipulate people's minds.

 

So how is this vastly different then what TIM does? Save it is a much more basic and unrefined version of it. Which fits into the whole set up of TIM trying to emulate the Reapers to beat them.

 

Seriously the brain controls the body. If you can effect the mind you can effect the body.

but as starjar said Tim could not control the reapers because they already controlled him....through indoctrination.  

 

[Natureguy85]

And yet the Council wasn't willing to go to war against them to regain the Quarian worlds and remove the big potential threat they pose. Hence why despite all the problems between Batarian and Humans neither were willing to come to blows. Because both were large and powerful enough to cause more damage to each other then either would gain from any military victory.

 

That had nothing to do with the Geth as a threat. The Council is a scared, do-nothing body and this is shown throughout the series.

 

 

 

But it does effect it you were already going to stop Sovereign in ME 1 and you were already going to attempt to stop the harvest in ME 3. The information from the info dump effects your choices leading up to that. In ME 1 as it is the first game in the series the choice is relatively small. Save the Council or leave them to die to save the galaxy. ME 3 since it is the final game the choice is much bigger to match that fact.

 

You complain about my analogy but your basis of logic is info dump right into choice = bad. But info dump + combat that has no basis on info dump or choice= good simply because it wasn't right after it. I quite literally based your logic track on a real world set up and you called it stupid. Which really goes to show the inherent problem with that set up you have created.

 

And yet that wasn't a sequel bait either. The sequel bait is the final lines by Shepard were he/she states something along the lines of the Reapers are still out there and he/she is going to find a way to stop them. So you used a term the wrong way and then tried to apply something else to fit to try and cover for it. Which still doesn't apply at all. Because a hook is a short set up designed to gain the reader's interest in the story. Shepard stating that the Reapers are still out there and needs to be stopped is the hook to want to see the next game.

 

I'm still waiting for an explanation for how anything Vigil says affects if you decide to have the Alliance ships save the Destiny Ascension or not.

 

I didn't make that argument. I said the context was different. You said it's the same while just describing how it's different. Needing to make a snap decision on new information can work, but it would have to be done differently. Virmire was great. You were headed one way and suddenly have to make a choice based on something changing. What I was focused on was meeting Vigil before the climax and meeting the Catalyst after the climax. Also, only the data hack is relevant in Mass Effect 1. The other stuff wouldn't matter until the future titles. Then the future titles made it not matter at all, but that's a different story.

 

You're right about the last lines being sequel bait, but so is a lot of what Vigil says. Where the rest of the Reapers are, why they Harvest, and what they are doing right at that moment is irrelevant to the events happening right then, but could be important for future titles. I was referring to the overarching plot going into the next title, which is why I changed to the better term.

[fchopin]

 

With Kirrahe, its not hard to have him die in ME1.  It depends on what dialogue and actions are  chosen. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of folks didn't know he could be saved on their first playthrough

 

I did not know that Kirrahe could be saved, how do you do that?

[Natureguy85]

I did not know that Kirrahe could be saved, how do you do that?

 

Do things that help the Salarians like destroying the antennae, destroy the fighter refueling stations, and disable the alarms and he will show up next to Wrex on the Normandy. They will exit when you reach the next hub, so go visit right away.

[fchopin]

Thanks.

[Natureguy85]

We hear nothing about Arrival and LotSB in ME 2 yet it is still canon as well. If there was an ME 4 continuing the same story as ME 3 were the Reapers were not defeated yet the same set up would have happened with all DLC. So yea this is a matter of logic. The following game takes the previous game's DLC into consideration when dealing with the story. The only alteration is a few lines of dialogue depending on if the player did it or didn't. You ignore a trend in the series and attempt to justify it because there is no 4th installment of the same story to show other wise. As well the logic in ME 2 is the only reason Arrival and LotSB happened is because Shepard helped. Yet in ME 3 Shepard's direct hand in those matters isn't 100% required anymore. The main point the Leviathans were getting at is that Shepard is more then just lucky. There are so many other ways to get that point across to them. The easiest way would be to have Shepard's mother be the one to find Leviathan as she would know her son better then anyone else. And if you have the orphan set up then having someone who was on the Normandy at one point. Nameless crewman #12 that you would never know was gone could achieve the same thing. Showing Leviathan that it wasn't just dumb luck and Shepard wasn't just falling ass over ****** backwards into victories.

 

So again if ME 4 had existed you would have gotten a similar treatment with C-Sec dealing with clone issue before it could get started, Omega would have joined thanks to the Asari Government sending Huntresses to help take back Omega and someone else would have found and convinced Leviathan to join the war and you would read about this in a Codex entry meaning the in game Shepard would already be aware of this information since he is rather important to the over all strategy. So trying to justify your statements by saying the game DLC isn't referenced in the game that the DLC was created for is just silly.

 

LotSB and Arrival are not canon, at least not within a playthough, because those are stories of Shepard doing things. Only their end results are and only for the next installment, ME3. If they have put down a canon, it doesn't affect a playthrough, but only how we look back on the series from the outside.

 

If anyone is confused about what I mean when I talk about within vs outside a game or series, I'll use KotOR as a great example. According to Star Wars canon, Revan is male and the Exile is female, but that only matters to the rest of Star Wars canon outside the two games. If you pick female in KotOR, then Revan is female within your playthrough and KotOR 2 allows you to say Revan was female if that fits the story you want to follow. If I recall correctly, a character asks you about it, similar to Jacob and Miranda asking about the Human Councilor, rather than there being a save import. But canon going forward is that Revan was male and did certain things along that journey. Likewise, there may be, now or later, a canon set down that Shepard made particular choices at the many decision points, such as saving the Council. However, I don't think they have or ever will do that.

 

The lines of dialogue reflect the change in the events of the universe of that playthrough. Either Shepard went to the Bahak system or he didn't. She either killed the Shadow Broker or she didn't. You're actually showing how those DLCs didn't affect the story, but were merely mentioned and acknowledged. You might be right that we are meant to believe the only reason those things happened is because Shepard was involved, but ME3 decides otherwise. I actually find that disappointing, but neither thing really mattered that much. However, while still a DLC, Arrival was meant to bridge the gap between ME2 and ME3. If any DLC had a reason to be plot integral to the series, it was that one. I think it should have been only playable after the main campaign was done. Not only to make it clear that it is a bridge but also because it's better with Harbinger the Reaper than Harbinger the Collector General.

 

Right, Shepard is more than just lucky when he did things that other organics in other cycles have not. Remember that the Leviathans have the same long distance view that the Catalyst does. They've been watching the cycles too. (Also notice how Shepard says "this cycle is different," an argument that should have been made to the Catalyst, but wasn't.) I have to laugh at the idea that despite Shepard himself barely convincing the Leviathans to join, you think his mother would succeed by telling them how awesome her son is. Shepard's direct actions don't matter to those other DLCs because all he is nothing more than a guy who shoots a gun. Now he's really good at that since it takes an entire Marine unit to do what he does in Arrival, but that's still it. In Leviathan, it's finally Shepard's personality that wins the day, helped by all those times he shot a gun really well. It's one thing for the Leviathans to hear about this special person, but it's another for them to meet him. But this is an in-universe example of "show, don't tell."

 

And really, Arrival doesn't affect anything in ME3. You could cut that entire bit out and just have the Reapers show up when they do. If you play Arrival, it's the excuse for why Shepard is in "jail" on Earth and gets brought up in the Balak cameo if you played Bring Down the Sky. Other than that what difference does it make? What difference does it make if you didn't play it? If the Reapers attacked during a conflict between Batarians and Humans, that would be something. They actively ignored the idea of blowing a Relay destroying a solar system, though when reminded they changed the cutscene in the Extended Cut.

 

Yes, if there had been a 4th game in the same plotline, the DLCs from ME3 would probably be addressed somehow, but we don't know how.  Hell, they could have blown up Omega. However, neither Omega or Citadel are the least bit plot integral to ME3.

 

 

 

 

Well then you know the hopes for Star Wars being even vaugly popular were so low that the studio allowed Lucas to keep the majority to all the merchandising rights to the film if I remember right. So the story was set up to be rather self contained unlike all the subsequent movies. The Luke/Leia stuff was written in the time between New Hope and post Empire Strikes back. All that was ended once production on Return of the Jedi was started. And you should give weight to the side media because it was all but a small percentage considered canon. Least until Disney got a hold of it then 95% of it isn't official canon anymore. How ever Disney is creating their own official canon using side media like books and comics and tv shows. Star Wars Rebels is official Star Wars canon now.

 

Yeah, FOX really blew it on that one. Star Wars was beautifully both tied up to be a single movie and allowed room for more. The Matrix could have just ended with one movie, but they made two more because the first one was so popular. Pirates of the Caribbean is another example.

 

It's fine to make side media canon, but the movies, the primary media, should not rely on information in it and anything in the movies trumps anything in any side media.

 

 

But it goes against nothing that has been shown previously. You want it to so you perceive it to go against it. Sadly perception is something that no writing staff can account for. Was it you that I brought up Fahrenheit 451 with? How Bradbury wrote it to tell one story but people's personal perceptions altered it to be all about censorship to the point people were point blank telling the author of the book he was wrong. You are that person right now.

 

Geth went from simplistic VI's capable of only doing programmed tasks into self aware beings who started to evolve, learn and grow on their own. Fast enough that their creator's didn't react in time to stop it. Which lead to a war which ended with the near Genocide of the Quarian race. They then decided to kill all organics that got near them. They presented such a threat that the Council rather then attempt to eliminate them simply choose to not go to war with them and simply have the various races pay out the ass in credits to maintain large fleets near their boarder to Geth space to act as warning of any invasion attempts. Then a small portion of over all Geth lead by Sovereign actively attacked organics and did a fairly decent job of curb stomping everyone they went up against.  The Geth that didn't attacked were on the verge of mastering Dyson Sphere technology which is really advanced stuff as well as creating ships capable out out matching all other organic ones. The fact even with what 6 ships from the Quarian Heavy Fleet shooting at Geth Flagship and Shepard still had time to shoot his way out and get to a Geth Fighter before it blew up shows how damn sturdy that ship was.

 

The only reason they break the isolation is simply to get information from Shepard about the Old Machines so they can better fight them. Legion didn't leave the collective to form a bond with organics or work with them for mutual benefit. He left to find Shepard simply for the betterment of Geth and no one else. This continues in ME 3 were Legion only asks Shepard for help because it can not deal with the Reapers on their own. If they could hold off the Reapers without outside help the Geth would have left all organics to their fate.

 

Your "proof" is based on the idea that fighting a common enemy automatically makes everyone best friends for life. This isn't remotely true when you apply the real world to anything. But again you want to perceive it as different then the game shows so to you it isn't consistent. Sadly this is something no one is capable of altering but yourself. And why I do feel a lot of the flak BioWare got about this game is undeserved.

 

Actually, building a perception is part of writing. But you're right, you never know when someone will get some wacky idea from what you present. And sometimes there are valid interpretations that are different from what the author intended. I won't say it was the case for Bradbury and Fahrenheit 451, but that idea is totally possible. We discussed it earlier where you misunderstood something I said, not because of a problem with your reading, as often as that may be the case, but because I phrased what I meant to say very poorly. In that instance, I, the author, said something other than what I meant to say.

 

Yes, the Geth were a threat to the Quarians. That threat stopped once the Quarians left. Yes, the Geth killed organics who entered their space. but that is hardly a threat to all life in the galaxy. If you go into the woods near a bear, it might attack and kill you. That doesn't mean all bears are a threat to all people.

 

Yeah, Quarian cruisers or frigates or whatever took a long time to take down a much larger dreadnought. That would be the case for any dreadnought. The Geth just built a bigger ship. It relied on all the same technology that everyone else has. The biggest advancement in military tech is the Thanix cannon, developed by the Turians.

 

So the Geth are just like everyone else: self interested and only cooperating to get something out of it. What's your point?

 

No, I never made that argument, Mr. Strawman. The Catalyst made the absolutist statement, not me.

[Natureguy85]

And that is exactly how the rest of the information is presented. At no point do they every say with any important information that this pen is and always will be blue. Then the next game they are declaring it absolutely always has and always will be green. It was only ever this is blue. Now this is a slightly darker shade of blue or slightly lighter shade of blue. Much like the Quarians went from this is blue to this is a slightly darker shade of blue.

 

But the pen is blue!

 

 

 

Actually I think they did make a change with the Quarians. From Tali's comments, specifically how her mother died and not seeing her father smile, I got the impression that the Quarians didn't wear their suits when on their ships. Her mother died from an airborne illness. If she never saw her father's face period, the statement of never seeing him smile would have a different meaning. The implication is that he had a grim, serious expression all of the time due to the weight on his shoulders as an Admiral. That's gone if she never saw him smile because she didn't see his face period.

 

The Geth are also different from Tali's description, where each platform is "a geth" but that can be justified in that the Quarians haven't seen them in centuries and don't know how they've changed. Much like how the inaccuracies in her telling of what happened can be attributed to Oral Tradition. Like I said, some retcons can be justified and not harm the story.

[rossler]

I'm going to save that pic when I get home tomorrow.

[angol fear]

But the pen is blue!

 

Perfect illustration of the oversimplification and denial you have been doing since the beginning. You're doing great!

[themikefest]

I did not know that Kirrahe could be saved, how do you do that?

- Disrupt geth communications. Head into the communications tower, and use the terminal you find there.
- Disrupt geth satellite uplink. Head into the satellite tower, then shoot the uplink node until it explodes and shoots sparks. It looks like a white rectangle with orange-ish markings.
- Destroy geth flyers. Take a detour towards the geth refueling platforms while approaching the base. Shoot and destroy the fuel tanks and the drones next to them.
- While entering the enemy base, make sure NOT to divert security attention to Kirrahe's team, instead taking on the bulk of the enemy forces yoursel

 

here's a video to help

Spoiler

[gothpunkboy89]

But the pen is blue!

 

 

 

Actually I think they did make a change with the Quarians. From Tali's comments, specifically how her mother died and not seeing her father smile, I got the impression that the Quarians didn't wear their suits when on their ships. Her mother died from an airborne illness. If she never saw her father's face period, the statement of never seeing him smile would have a different meaning. The implication is that he had a grim, serious expression all of the time due to the weight on his shoulders as an Admiral. That's gone if she never saw him smile because she didn't see his face period.

 

The Geth are also different from Tali's description, where each platform is "a geth" but that can be justified in that the Quarians haven't seen them in centuries and don't know how they've changed. Much like how the inaccuracies in her telling of what happened can be attributed to Oral Tradition. Like I said, some retcons can be justified and not harm the story.

 

 

And yet there is no information to give the details needed to come to a conclusion. We don't know their funeral practices. We don't know the full extent of there home life actions. They wear the suits when dealing with other Quarians but we simply don't have any information to fully form a concept of what does and doesn't happen. If you romance Tali she is pretty damn big on showing Shepard her real face and not just the mask.  So you are calling it retcon based on no information after new information that was added that doesn't alter the old information.

 

And the fact that it is very hard for a singular organism to grasp the concept of multiple individuals in a single body. Because we are use to a single individual in a single body.

 

So again what exactly is your examples of retcon that causes you to use it in the complaining context you always use it in. Because with both these examples they fit exactly as I said and are nothing to complain about. Yet you are using retcon as a complaint frequently.

[gothpunkboy89]

- Disrupt geth communications. Head into the communications tower, and use the terminal you find there.
- Disrupt geth satellite uplink. Head into the satellite tower, then shoot the uplink node until it explodes and shoots sparks. It looks like a white rectangle with orange-ish markings.
- Destroy geth flyers. Take a detour towards the geth refueling platforms while approaching the base. Shoot and destroy the fuel tanks and the drones next to them.
- While entering the enemy base, make sure NOT to divert security attention to Kirrahe's team, instead taking on the bulk of the enemy forces yoursel

 

here's a video to help

Spoiler

 

All that isn't needed

 

As long as you do all destroy communications, uplink and fuel depot you can choose to divert security if you want without negatively effecting his chance to die. Of course you still need to choose to rescue his group rather then choosing to help the person arming the bomb.

[Natureguy85]

Perfect illustration of the oversimplification and denial you have been doing since the beginning. You're doing great!

Perfect example of statement with no argument and lack of comprehension you've demonstrated since the beginning. The video is just to be funny.

[gothpunkboy89]

but as starjar said Tim could not control the reapers because they already controlled him....through indoctrination.  

 

 

 

doesn't actually effect anything I said. All that means is that TIM's mind was already altered to think like current Reaper mentality rather then a new mentality that would be needed for the Control option to work. Other wise it would be like swapping out a 2012 penny with a 2016 penny. Still a penny just slightly newer

[themikefest]

All that isn't needed

 

As long as you do all destroy communications, uplink and fuel depot you can choose to divert security if you want without negatively effecting his chance to die. Of course you still need to choose to rescue his group rather then choosing to help the person arming the bomb.

Have you done that?

[fchopin]

- Disrupt geth communications. Head into the communications tower, and use the terminal you find there.
- Disrupt geth satellite uplink. Head into the satellite tower, then shoot the uplink node until it explodes and shoots sparks. It looks like a white rectangle with orange-ish markings.
- Destroy geth flyers. Take a detour towards the geth refueling platforms while approaching the base. Shoot and destroy the fuel tanks and the drones next to them.
- While entering the enemy base, make sure NOT to divert security attention to Kirrahe's team, instead taking on the bulk of the enemy forces yoursel

 

here's a video to help

Spoiler

 

Thank you, I made a mistake I know how to do this I thought you meant the officer we help to find the dead soldiers killed.

[Natureguy85]

All that isn't needed

As long as you do all destroy communications, uplink and fuel depot you can choose to divert security if you want without negatively effecting his chance to die. Of course you still need to choose to rescue his group rather then choosing to help the person arming the bomb.

I think you're right that you don't need to do all three steps because there will be less solarians but Kirrahe will survive. Rentola might die though, where he will survive if you do them all. But are you sure you have to rescue the Salarian group from the tower? I don't think he was in the same group Kaidan was and I'm pretty sure he survived when I went back to the bomb site.

[gothpunkboy89]

Have you done that?

Yea during renagade play though. Destroyed all alternative objectives then for renagade reasons triggered the alarm. As long as you chhose to save the salarian group over help the person arming the bomb he survives.

If you don't destroy the stuff he dies regardless if you trigger the alarm it seems.