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Mass Effect 3's ending is absolutely brilliant!


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#376
AlanC9

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The breath scene was (apparently) intended for anyone with a "good" playthrough to achieve, or who did a certain amount of MP, that it required MP was "a mistake" A math error or something like it.  Grated it was one we were repeatedly assured both before and after release would not happen.  And even afterwards, took months to correct even after players mathematically proved it was impossible to achieve strictly though playing the SP campaign.


Agreed. It's pretty hard to reconcile Bio's post-release comments and the leak with those numbers being deliberately chosen, unless Bio's got such poor internal communication that it's not really sensible to speak of "Bioware" as a single entity that can have an intent.
 

The breath scene was not, however, meant to "prove" Shepard lived, though.  It was expressly described as "a ray of hope"  A possibility that Shepard might live.  Which imo doesn't come anywhere near balancing all the other endings where Shepard explicitly dies.


Though since Bio was abandoning Shepard's story after that moment, resolving any ambiguity is the player's job. Since you're big on shaping the story, why not just declare that Shepard survived?

(Standard disclaimer: I don't really see ambiguity there, since I interpret the scene the same way I'd interpret such a scene in any other medium.)

#377
Dantriges

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Are you kidding?!One of the best things about the ending is that it's very different from your typical AAA fodder!

 

I am not kidding. The whole third game was more movie than the others in the series. I didn´t find the ending so original either. You mean AA video games? Thought we were taling about Hollywood. I don´t pay attention to this divide. Is Deus Ex AAA?

 

Funny thing is, when I bought it, I was like, ah well heard that EC fixed most of the issues and I have the whole game to enjoy. Hm well, the annyoance already started in the first five minutes with all this cheap movie cliché drama. Gobbled it down, because ME 2 had an even worse start but it only became worse from there.


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#378
oddball_bg

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I am not kidding. The whole third game was more movie than the others in the series. I didn´t find the ending so original either. You mean AA video games? Thought we were taling about Hollywood. I don´t pay attention to this divide. Is Deus Ex AAA?

 

Funny thing is, when I bought it, I was like, ah well heard that EC fixed most of the issues and I have the whole game to enjoy. Hm well, the annyoance already started in the first five minutes with all this cheap movie cliché drama. Gobbled it down, because ME 2 had an even worse start but it only became worse from there.

AAA games are getting more and more like the Hollywood movies.There are good and bad things about it,mostly bad.


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#379
rossler

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Though since Bio was abandoning Shepard's story after that moment, resolving any ambiguity is the player's job. Since you're big on shaping the story, why not just declare that Shepard survived?

 

This is why



#380
Iakus

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Though since Bio was abandoning Shepard's story after that moment, resolving any ambiguity is the player's job. Since you're big on shaping the story, why not just declare that Shepard survived?

(Standard disclaimer: I don't really see ambiguity there, since I interpret the scene the same way I'd interpret such a scene in any other medium.)

Because Bioware saw fit to remove any ambiguity from all the "Shepard dies" endings.  Why do e get to watch Shepard die and be disintegrated in all the other endings, but leave Torso-Shep in such a quantum state?  Either be ambiguous or don't.  Don't half-arse it.

 

And for me simply declaring "Shepard survived" isn't enough  As I've said many times, Torso-Shep isn't even my biggest problem with the endings.  It's a great example to point to, however, at how poorly written and thought-out the endings were.  ANd what a big middle finger it is to so many fans.



#381
Iakus

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How much hand-holding through a story do people need, an epilogue addendum detailing how Shep recovered and s/he and his/her LI rejoined and raised children?

 

No, just something showing Shepard lived that is as obvious as electrocution, disintegration, or walking into a giant fireball is that Shepard died.

 

Was that "hand-holding'?



#382
rossler

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No, just something showing Shepard lived that is as obvious as electrocution, disintegration, or walking into a giant fireball is that Shepard died.

 

Was that "hand-holding'?

 

What's wrong with having him near some rubble taking a breath? Then there's a little message that says you destroyed the Reapers and became some kind of legend. Sounds pretty obvious to me that Shepard survived.



#383
angol fear

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I am not kidding. The whole third game was more movie than the others in the series.

 

The visual of the first game was like a movie and it was written to feel like a movie. The only difference that makes you feel Mass Effect 3 being more movie than the others is that Mass Effect 3 is more spectacular.

 

 

I didn´t find the ending so original either.

 

If that's not original for you then nothing is orignal for you. Honestly, if you take a look at how people have received the ending, you'll see that they didn't expected that kind of ending. How many people will you find here saying that the ending didn't fit the rest of the trilogy?

 

 

Hm well, the annyoance already started in the first five minutes with all this cheap movie cliché drama. Gobbled it down, because ME 2 had an even worse start but it only became worse from there.

 

So why did you play Mass Effect? I mean from the first till the third episode the whole writing is based on using codes. You don't see the difference between using codes and being clichés. The first is a postmodernist aesthetic, the second is just a problem of writing. Mass Effect has always been based its writing on Hollywood codes, that's why Mass Effect 1 was quite popular, and that's why a lot of people prefer Mass Effect 2 . No one played Mass Effect because it was original. They played it because they recognized many references and codes. But when people think that Mass Effect was cliché and didn't have any other purpose, they don't see how Bioware used these clichés and how they slowly created a distance from the Hollywood codes.

 

 

AAA games are getting more and more like the Hollywood movies.There are good and bad things about it,mostly bad.

 

Hollywood golden age was in the 60's-70's. But because of Spielberg and Lucas it turned to be entertainment since the 80's. Now Hollywood is Disney (Disney's films, Marvel and Star Wars) and every film made by Hollywood use the same structure Disney uses (Jurassic World was written like this). The problem is that Disney's target are the children. So yes it's mostly bad, but people want it this way.



#384
Dantriges

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The visual of the first game was like a movie and it was written to feel like a movie. The only difference that makes you feel Mass Effect 3 being more movie than the others is that Mass Effect 3 is more spectacular.


The feeling came more from being in a spectator seat quite a lot of time and a new layer of distance between Shepard and the player. Suddenly he did stuff I didn´t understand and had thoughts I couldn´t follow. In some places I got the feeling that the game grabbed my mouse and keyboard and told me to watch the awesome movie they made. I get why they used a lot more cutscenes as you can do and tell a lot more more fluently, but in some places they were really moronic. Low point was Thessia for me, where you get told with a jackhammer to feel sorry and depressed, not only for losing to Kai Leng but for losing Thessia. Uh ok, I lost Thessia? Whatever happens downs there after we left wouldn´t be any different in the timespan inbetween. This planet will burn no matter what I do and the last time I checked, the lollipop wasn´t finished anyways. Please stop feeding me that crap, especially after you turned my prothean expert into a complete moron so Bioware could make their own very special take on "the space elves are sinister and manipulative." Who would have guessed? That´s so tired as "humans are versatile."

The game is on railroad tracks of course compared to a P&P, but you had a lot of leeway determining why you do stuff and in some places you could do things differently. It was still there but they intruded into the sphere which was established as player zone several times.
  

If that's not original for you then nothing is orignal for you. Honestly, if you take a look at how people have received the ending, you'll see that they didn't expected that kind of ending. How many people will you find here saying that the ending didn't fit the rest of the trilogy?

 
Hm ok, in general yes. It´s rather rare that the protagonist goes along with the antagonist telling him something. The more usual thing is giving the villain the finger after his big reveal of why he did it and the "join me in this" speech.
There´s probably a misunderstanding because I was talking about the death of the protagonist and a bittersweet ending. Perhaps I joined in too late when it was all new or so, but I bought the game in 2015. My library at this point had RPGs with endings like:
-Mission accomplished but you get shafted out of your pay.
-Mission accomplished but every ending has its drawbacks and you lose your hometurf to a dragon next year.
-Killed my sister I was looking for while possessed; got locked up wih her in mindless bliss in a gilded cage; found and lost her again.
-Won but my boyfriend ran away because of his shady past(fixed female protag). Oh and bad guy told me, I was performing great and did what he wanted.
-Got the stuff back I was looking for, did I just kill the future self of the boy I was looking and caring for. Also my "freedom fighter" buddies got shafted.
-Witcher 2. A whole joyride of pick what is less worse.
-Deus Ex. Haven´t finished yet, because of some reasons, but what I´ve heard the endings aren´t rides to happy lalaland.
And last but not least, Endless Legend, a strategy game. You won and are now ruler of a dying planet wrapped in eternal winter. Good thing I went for economic victory, I can now build a gilded mausoleum as a testament to my folly.
Oh and I have two games where "you won, you live, everything is fine, you did it."

Picked up Witcher 3 in the meantime. Ok I would say, it´s mostly a happy ending in the major decision department, if you don´t really care what kind of sucky ruler rules what. Ok you can screw up pretty easily and then it´s

Spoiler

So ok, I seems we talked about different things and there was a bit of confusion. The ending in ME is quite rare as a whole, but if we focus on the bittersweet and Die Shepard part, it´s not so uncommon or somehow I manage to only pick up niche games. Perhaps I missed the era of shiny happy endings games.
 

So why did you play Mass Effect? I mean from the first till the third episode the whole writing is based on using codes. You don't see the difference between using codes and being clichés. The first is a postmodernist aesthetic, the second is just a problem of writing. Mass Effect has always been based its writing on Hollywood codes, that's why Mass Effect 1 was quite popular, and that's why a lot of people prefer Mass Effect 2 . No one played Mass Effect because it was original. They played it because they recognized many references and codes. But when people think that Mass Effect was cliché and didn't have any other purpose, they don't see how Bioware used these clichés and how they slowly created a distance from the Hollywood codes.

 
The code in the first two was more to my liking? Ah well, that will probably only get me a "you are a sucker for Hollywood stuff." ;) Seems I shouldn´t have used the word cliché here when I described my problem. It didn´t really nail it. Perhaps it´s more a limiting of choices. Ok not exactly correct, I go into more detail.

The problem I had with the start of ME 3 was cutscene, cutscene, cutscene, I am allowed to say something to the committee. What is it? "We have to work together" or "we fight or we die?" Oh come on. Where is the usual option of not giving a lame speech, something like "it´s too late now dudes" or "you are asking me that, now?" It´s not like "too late, duh" would be more of a stretch than going pathos.

In short, it felt like watching a movie and a token effort to participation of the player. It felt like they wanted to make a film and only reluctantly  acknowledged that you aren´t more than a passive viewer and your input isn´t really wanted. And then they proceeded to intrude in areas they previously left to you over the course of the game, reinforcing this impression.

 

I continued because of several factors. Was an annoyance but not a ragequitting annoyance, paid money for it and well, the start of ME 2 was even worse. Ok it became more annoying as the game went on, but at this point I already invested time and effort into it and I wanted to see the rest. And well it´s not like everything was bad. the gameplay is better and even some of the auto features were ok. The auto dialogue with your companions was ok, it saved you the time of clicking the "Click this to check, if there is some new dialogue" and the cutscenes had the benefit of a mory dynamic conversation flowing more naturally. And yeah there was quite a lot in the game to enjoy of the story.

 

The plot was uh well. Let´s say that you might like postmodern stuff or going highly symbolic, paradoxical or so. I prefer a more grounded approach when I as a player am asked to make decisions. Or at least it didn´t felt fitting for the setting. Actually the whole thing felt less grounded than my fantasy setting with a whole lot of magitech. I would feel ok with it, but the first games didn´t have that vibe of going surreal or "there is a hidden reality behind the obvious." Some bits were there, but not enough to reality jump. Not sure, if they intended to ease you into it, but the pacing felt off. And I find it a bad idea to sell you the starkid as a trustworthy source of exposition when you were stepping over his victims five minutes ago. IIRC you said, that it was a masterful entrapment by the story, the antagonist or so. Sry can´t remember exactly what.

I didn´t feel that. it was more like they were steering you away with the ganeplay and lack of options in the dilogue wheel. If they wanted to entrap me, they should have involved me somehow, instead you got some simple block answers which sounded more like "writers don´t know,too." There wasn´t a hard choice I was unwilling to make or some stuff besides "Know something?" "Nope" "Ok." What we got were more fights with a ridiculously overblown secondary villain named Cerberus with a villain brigade right out of the institute for mentally challenged people, for some reason, not something that would delve into the matter at hand. I mean stuff leading to the end.

It was block, block, block and we don´t give you the option, you are trapped by the most nefarious villain of them all, the dialogue wheel.

 

 

Hollywood golden age was in the 60's-70's.

 

Ah that could explain a difference in perspective. That stuff was on rerun on TV when I grew up.


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#385
themikefest

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No, just something showing Shepard lived that is as obvious as electrocution, disintegration, or walking into a giant fireball is that Shepard died.

 

Was that "hand-holding'?

I would settle for something simple

 

I posted this a few times

 

In all the endings with Shepard dead, have a  slide showing Shepards grave with LI, if he/she had one, and if that doesn't work, have a statue of Shepard wearing armor with LI standing next to it, if he/she had one

 

If Shepard survives, have a slide with Shepard and LI, if Shepard had one, standing side by side with their backs to the screen, standing in a field while the sun is setting looking up to the sky.

 

If ems is below 1750 and destroy was chosen, keep it the same as seen in the game

 

What's wrong with having him near some rubble taking a breath? Then there's a little message that says you destroyed the Reapers and became some kind of legend. Sounds pretty obvious to me that Shepard survived.

This is the message that the player gets for choosing destroy, control or synthesis

 

Congradulations on bringing an end to the reaper threat. Commander Shepard has become a legend, and from here you can build that legend.

 

If that means its obvious Shepard survived, why is that message the same for the 3 endings?


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#386
rossler

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This is the message that the player gets for choosing destroy, control or synthesis

 

Congradulations on bringing an end to the reaper threat. Commander Shepard has become a legend, and from here you can build that legend.

 

If that means its obvious Shepard survived, why is that message the same for the 3 endings?

 

Beats me. Ask Bioware why they made it that way. Maybe your not seeing what you think you're seeing



#387
Arreyanne

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The first of all, it created so many plotholes that only to fill them required conspiracy theory. If writers couldn´t come into the conclusion of how bad and ambiguous endings are(which happened, but lead writers kicked out outhers out of discussion).Then they were shocked when people required more and even created IT just to fit those plotholes and stuff.

 

I had an issue with this writing since the I first time managed to get to Mars archives and got to the whole Deus Ex concept, Crucible was never ever explained and that´s was so stupid. And I would even say that it´s implied by Vendetta the possibility of Crucible being just a tool to Catalist. 

Ironically the best ending was actually the one which came with Extended Cut, because they screwed up this whole trilogy so much that I was rather glad to see burn whole cycle.

Yes every play through Ive done since the extended cut has been burn it all burn it all to the ground.

 

The three choices are the same except for different colors. Bad writing is still bad writing



#388
themikefest

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Beats me. Ask Bioware why they made it that way.

That seems to be most of what your answers are when I ask questions about your posts
 

There is enough information in the breath scene to suggest that Shepard survives.

I agree that Shepard survives if destroy is chosen and ems is high enough
 

In addition to your LI not hanging your plaque on the wall with a smile on their face

What about if Shepard romanced Miranda or Jack? They're not there to hold the nameplate. How does the character "know" not to put up the nameplate even when Shepard isn't romancing anyone?

 

The problem with that scene is that if whoever found Shepard dead, if ems is below 3100, the folks on the Normandy were informed, don't know who informed them, that Shepard is dead. The same can be said if ems is above 3100. So why even have that scene if Shepard is alive?
 

It's obvious they're going to rescue you.

The Normandy crew rescues Shepard? I would say that someone else, whoever that person or persons are, rescued Shepard, and by the time the Normandy gets back to Earth, Shepard will be in the hospital recovering



#389
themikefest

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Beats me. Ask Bioware why they made it that way. Maybe your not seeing what you think you're seeing

I see you edited your post

 

I'm not seeing what I think I'm seeing?   All I know is the player gets the same message regardless of what ending is chosen.

 

You posted the message says you've destroyed the reapers. That is incorrect.



#390
rossler

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That seems to be most of what your answers are when I ask questions about your posts

 

Not a bad answer either, because I didn't personally make the game. Like yourself, I just paid $60 to play it. So if you want any real definitive answers, best to ask the people who made it.



#391
Iakus

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What's wrong with having him near some rubble taking a breath?

THis has been discussed many times over the last couple of years, but...

 

Shepard was last seen already badly injured, bleeding out, and walking into an explosion.  Shepard surviving the injuries already received before that point would already take a bit of explaining.  After the explosion, Shepard isn't standing.  Isn't speaking.  We don't even get to see Shepard's face.  This as compared to us getting to watch Shepard die horribly in every other ending.

 

Everyone who would knew or even suspected Shepard was alive was out of the solar system.  And given Anderson's plaque on the Normandy, it seems there aren't many people with faith Shepard's alive either.  Who's going to go looking for Shep in the near future

 

Shepard is in a part of the Citadel no organic has ever been.  THis is explicitly stated by the Catalyst during their conversation.  No one would even know where to look for Shepard.

 

So compare:  SHepard dies, we get to see it happen.  Everyone knows SHepard is dead.  THere is no doubt.

 

Shepard "survives" We are required to handwave away several hurdles that need to be overcome just to ensure Shepard lives long enough to see his/her family and friends again, let alone not spend the rest of a painful life hooked up to tubes or something.

 

Compare the breath scene to the "from the wreckage seen in ME1.

 

 

Then there's a little message that says you destroyed the Reapers and became some kind of legend. Sounds pretty obvious to me that Shepard survived.

 

You get "Shepard has become a legend" in all the endings.

 

At least the EC removed the "Now buy DLC" addendum.



#392
Iakus

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What about if Shepard romanced Miranda or Jack? They're not there to hold the nameplate. How does the character "know" not to put up the nameplate even when Shepard isn't romancing anyone?

 

The problem with that scene is that if whoever found Shepard dead, if ems is below 3100, the folks on the Normandy were informed, don't know who informed them, that Shepard is dead. The same can be said if ems is above 3100. So why even have that scene if Shepard is alive?
 

I want to know why the LI is suddenly Force-Sensitive at the end of ME3.  


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#393
Andrew Lucas

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A dev already confirmed Shepard survives in the Destroy ending. Case closed.

Also, Iakus, let me love you.

#394
rossler

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A dev already confirmed Shepard survives in the Destroy ending. Case closed.

 

It sure is!



#395
Iakus

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A dev already confirmed Shepard survives in the Destroy ending. Case closed.
 

Citation needed.

 

I've only seen things like "indicates" and "there is hope"

 

But EDI and the geth being screwed makes it a non-starter for me no matter what.



#396
ImaginaryMatter

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A dev already confirmed Shepard survives in the Destroy ending. Case closed.

Also, Iakus, let me love you.

 

I think that only matters if we're talking about what the developers meant. If we're talking about what's actually in the game -- then it gets a little more complicated. I find it troubling that two people playing the same game can draw different conclusions based on whether or not they pay attention to the developers social media account.


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#397
rossler

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They use those accounts to relay messages to the player about the game. Whether it be ending issues or whatever. It's just another way to communicate with us.



#398
Andrew Lucas

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Citation needed.

I've only seen things like "indicates" and "there is hope"

But EDI and the geth being screwed makes it a non-starter for me no matter what.


“You may notice that in the “Shepard lives” ending, the love interest hesitates to place Shepard’s name on the wall, and instead looks up as though deep in thought. This is meant to suggest that the love interest is not ready to believe Shepard is dead, and the final scene reveals they are correct.”

Come on, Iakus, more than that just if they personally visit and say Shepard is alive while your serve them some tea.



I think that only matters if we're talking about what the developers meant. If we're talking about what's actually in the game -- then it gets a little more complicated. I find it troubling that two people playing the same game can draw different conclusions based on whether or not they pay attention to the developers social media account.

Look, if they said Shepard is alive, Shepard is alive. They wouldn't put that breathing scene just so that he/she can die. The intended effect is to tell the player Shepard made it, if the player doesn't want to believe, so be it.

#399
Iakus

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“You may notice that in the “Shepard lives” ending, the love interest hesitates to place Shepard’s name on the wall, and instead looks up as though deep in thought. This is meant to suggest that the love interest is not ready to believe Shepard is dead, and the final scene reveals they are correct.”

Come on, Iakus, more than that just if they personally visit and say Shepard is alive while your serve them some tea.
 

 

That's no more useful than Shepard taking a breath.  Doesn't resolve Shepard being completely frakked up, alone in a part of the Citadel no one else even knows exists, with no one nearby to help anyway.

 

You can just as easily say MacReady and Childs survive in The Thing. Technically correct, but not exactly a "they survive" ending.

 

 

Look, if they said Shepard is alive, Shepard is alive. They wouldn't put that breathing scene just so that he/she can die. The intended effect is to tell the player Shepard made it, if the player doesn't want to believe, so be it.

They put that scene in as "a ray of hope"  They were quite clear on that.  Not that "Shepard made it"  but that Shepard might make it.  It was permission to headcanon, nothing more.

 

As opposed to all the endings where Shepard is explicitly shown dying, with no room for doubt or headcanon.  

 

If they wanted something as clear as that for Shepard Surviving, we would have gotten something akin to the From the Wreckage scene from ME1.  Or a shot of Shepard being rescued like ME2.  Or heck even Hackett giving the good news to the Normandy crew.   That's what "clarity and closure" does, after all.  Provide...clarity and closure  B)

 

But I guess "Art" trumps both...



#400
Andrew Lucas

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That's no more useful than Shepard taking a breath. Doesn't resolve Shepard being completely frakked up, alone in a part of the Citadel no one else even knows exists, with no one nearby to help anyway.

You can just as easily say MacReady and Childs survive in The Thing. Technically correct, but not exactly a "they survive" ending.

You don't know for sure where Shepard might be, you don't know if there was nobody near Shepard. The only thing we know is that Shepard wakes up, and that says he/she lives.