3599 réponses à ce sujet

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I wonder if Casey Hudson ever visits to see the speculations that still go on?

 

Speculations from everyone!

[Natureguy85]

Ashley or Kaidan in Mass Effect 1, sacrifice or loss?

Removing Shepard companions in the end is a "problem" for some people but how many companions come with Shepard in Mass Effect 3? Why not the same number we had in Mass Effect 2?

 

That was one even that, while major, did not create a theme. I don't know what your point is that ME3 had less squad possibilities than ME2, which had too many. Shepard has zero with him at the end.

[angol fear]

And what about the council in mass effect 1, there was a choice. Was it sacrifice or loss ?
You don't see why I talked about the number of squadmates, so I'll stop here for this point.

[voteDC]

They did kind of. There's a few clues. The N7 logo (only Shepard and Anderson have been through the N7 training program, as I recall). There are two versions of the scene, one male, and one female. Well, Anderson isn't a woman, so in both scenes it is Shepard.

 

You just have to think about it for a second.

I've thought about it for more than a second. It could be the 'breath' of a corpse, such things do happen.

It could be Shepard's final breath before dying, as they witness the victory over the Reapers.

Or yes, it could be that Shepard is alive and waiting for rescue.

There are at least two interpretations of the scene in which Shepard is dead. So as I said. If the scene was meant to be a conformation of life, why did they leave the scene so open to interpretation?

PS. There have been more graduates of the N7 program than just Anderson and Shepard.

[Natureguy85]

And what about the council in mass effect 1, there was a choice. Was it sacrifice or loss ?
You don't see why I talked about the number of squadmates, so I'll stop here for this point.

 

There you're sacrificing either human ships or the council so with two instances you could start to argue a theme. They do happen at two of the most crucial moments in the story. However, the difference there is that the choice is more about defining Shepard. Since it's the end of the game, there is no consequence to either choice within Mass Effect and the consequences in the later games are minor. Either the council is made of different people or a war asset has a different value. Neither impact much of anything. This one isn't on the level of Virmire.

 

I notice you didn't elaborate on the number of squadmates or what your point was.  Shepard only has two with him at any time anyway, and thanks to the suicide mission, any of them could be dead for ME3. Shepard just has less people to leave behind on the Normandy doing nothing.

 

 

 

 

I've thought about it for more than a second. It could be the 'breath' of a corpse, such things do happen.

It could be Shepard's final breath before dying, as they witness the victory over the Reapers.

Or yes, it could be that Shepard is alive and waiting for rescue.

There are at least two interpretations of the scene in which Shepard is dead. So as I said. If the scene was meant to be a conformation of life, why did they leave the scene so open to interpretation?

PS. There have been more graduates of the N7 program than just Anderson and Shepard.

 

That's easy. It was a lazy "look, Shepard lives = good ending!"

[Vanilka]

That picture of the files was cool. I always knew they wanted Synthesis as the "good" ending, and now there is proof.

 

I think proof that Synthesis is the best ending according to the writer is the fact that you have to earn it as it only unlocks with high EMS. If your EMS isn't high enough, Synthesis is not an option.

[Natureguy85]

I think proof that Synthesis is the best ending according to the writer is the fact that you have to earn it as it only unlocks with high EMS. If your EMS isn't high enough, Synthesis is not an option.

 

That's certainly one of the bits of evidence, but nothing is as solid as having it actually named "best"!

[Vanilka]

That's certainly one of the bits of evidence, but nothing is as solid as having it actually named "best"!

 

You're right. My reasoning is based on the fact that with very low EMS people die, Earth gets scorched, etc. which seems to be the opposite side of the spectrum, and more and better options unlock with higher EMS, with Synthesis being unlocked last. To me that speaks volumes. But I understand. I agree it's always better to have an actual source of such information. No arguing about that.

[Natureguy85]

You're right. My reasoning is based on the fact that with very low EMS people die, Earth gets scorched, etc. which seems to be the opposite side of the spectrum, and more and better options unlock with higher EMS, with Synthesis being unlocked last. To me that speaks volumes. But I understand. I agree it's always better to have an actual source of such information. No arguing about that.

 

Oh, absolutely. I wish they'd actually put in the work to detail why EMS makes that difference though but it's just score.

[angol fear]

What do "underlying theme of sacrifice" means ? Why did casey hudson used the word " underlying" ?

[KrrKs]

I don't get where suddenly this 'victory through sacrifice' theme is supposed to come from.

If we look at the trilogy, the only instances where there is a necessary/inevitable loss of life of allies is:

(This is the extended version, btw.)

1. Eden Prime: Jenkins, Nihilus, Ashley's unit, and the one guarding Manuel and the other Doc (Actually plot devices, not related to any 'theme')
2. Virmire: Ash xor Kaidan
3. ME1 End: DA xor 5th fleet ships (Which belongs more into the 'Humans first vs Cooperation' theme)
4. ME2 beginning: XO Pressley
5. ME2: Colonists (Which is really more of an: 'Those evil guys are tots evil man, ebil I tell you!')
6. ME3: Most/Every  planet (Which again is a plot device to show how superior the Reapers are.)
7. Tuchanka: Mordin/Padok vs Urdnot Bakara (+ maybe Wrex) (I thought the theme here is: 'Do you trust Krogans')
8. Cerberus Coup: One of [Thane, Kirrahe, Salarian Councilor] (Introduction of Kai Lame -The only Cerberus goon able to kill someone with a name in ever)
9. ME3 end: Anderson

If we take only the ones that are actually of some meaning and involve a choice of some sort, the list is reduced to 3 entries [2,3,7].

That's not really that much instances (also pretty spread out) to constitute a major theme, imo.

(But at least its more than for 'Synths vs organics')

Modifié par KrrKs, 16 janvier 2016 - 02:04 .

[Saikyo_McRyu]

Hi, I just noticed this thread existed and felt it necessary to impart some Saikyo Wisdom. TL;DR If this was a giant troll thread, just skip to the video below.
 
ME3's ending was brilliant in the same way the ending of the Evangelion TV series was brilliant - they just made up **** as they went along and randomly threw enough nebulous transcendental references into the story so fanboys would headcanon the writers into men of letters of sparkling brilliance, with soaring intellect beyond the comprehension of mere mortals. At least Gainax had the excuse of running out of money, whereas Bioware ran out of brain.


 
A Game Ending Better than Mass Effect 3:

[Natureguy85]

I don't get where suddenly this 'victory through sacrifice' theme is supposed to come from.

If we look at the trilogy, the only instances where there is a necessary/inevitable loss of life of allies is:

(This is the extended version, btw.)

1. Eden Prime: Jenkins, Nihilus, Ashley's unit, and the one guarding Manuel and the other Doc (Actually plot devices, not related to any 'theme')
2. Virmire: Ash xor Kaidan
3. ME1 End: DA xor 5th fleet ships (Which belongs more into the 'Humans first vs Cooperation' theme)
4. ME2 beginning: XO Pressley
5. ME2: Colonists (Which is really more of an: 'Those evil guys are tots evil man, ebil I tell you!')
6. ME3: Most/Every  planet (Which again is a plot device to show how superior the Reapers are.)
7. Tuchanka: Mordin/Padok vs Urdnot Bakara (+ maybe Wrex) (I thought the theme here is: 'Do you trust Krogans')
8. Cerberus Coup: One of [Thane, Kirrahe, Salarian Councilor] (Introduction of Kai Lame -The only Cerberus goon able to kill someone with a name in ever)
9. ME3 end: Anderson

If we take only the ones that are actually of some meaning and involve a choice of some sort, the list is reduced to 3 entries [2,3,7].

That's not really that much instances (also pretty spread out) to constitute a major theme, imo.

(But at least its more than for 'Synths vs organics')

 

And I would say only 2, 3, 7, and only Kirrahee for 8 would be sacrifices. Kirahee because he takes the hit for the Councilor (despite it being stupid that he didn't use the opportunity to attack Leng.) The rest are killed by the enemy in the course of the war. Other than soldiers deciding to be soldiers and taking up the fight at all, nobody made a decision to give up those people for a cause. With Ashley or Kaidan, one must be abandoned to save the other. The choice is similar for the Destiny Ascension. While you can't count the colonists, you could count the SR-2 crew if Shepard made more preparations before heading into the Omega 4 relay. Mordin or Padok go into situation where they know death is almost certain to make sure the Genophage cure is launched. I guess you could count Anderson since he makes the beam run with you.

 

This only matters if we insist on sacrifice. If we are simply talking about loss, then none of what I just said applies.

 

Edited: Missed you saying you were just counting inevitable loss of life, period. Thank you Dantriges.

[Dantriges]

KrrKs listed unavoidable losses of life, not sacrifices. Your list of actual sacrifices are the same with the exception you made for Kirrahe. Oh and Anderson. Looks like it´s mostly limited to ME 1.

 

You could add in the gunship pilots on Thessia, though. I wouldn´t count Kirin´s troop. Doesn´t matter much if they draw fire away from you in a retreating action or by staying there. The outpost and sniper lady were so deep in enemy territory and under fire, I wouldn´t count them.

[themikefest]

I would not count Anderson as a sacrifice. That could've played out the same without having him on the Citadel. Give TIM a pistol the moment he shows up and the scene is the same.

[Benjamin Tan]

First of all MAJOR SPOILERS ABOUT EVERYTHING!!!I should start with the fact that i am not a mass effect fanatic and just recently completed 3(and thus the whole trilogy,i have all 3 games) and i must say  that this is the third time where a game sticks with me days after completing it and I feel so emotional about what it represents in general(the other two games are bioshock infinite which is my favourite game in the world and braid,which is just pure genius).The whole reveal that The Reapers are actually  constantly restarting the whole organic civilization just to preserve it from destroying itself was absolute shock(in a good emotional way) and was ingenius!And the whole bittersweetness of the entire ending with all 3 main choices felt very very right with a hurricane of emotions in me which i cannot help but share in here.So the reapers are actually nothing but tools,they don't think for their own,they don't have free will and cannot make choices.they are just poor machines designed for one reason.they are not interested in war,as the starchild states.they just do what they are programmed to.and at the end you basically play the role of a god deciding not only the fate of all organic life(and synthetic)but also decide the state of this life(if you choose synthesis with synthetics)thus even creating new kind of consciousness(again,if you choose synthesis)!Many people say that the ending makes most of the choices pointless but that's the beauty of it because it strikes you with something FAR bigger and unexpected than ANY of your choices throughout the whole trilogy!I read somewhere in a post that the whole third game is one big ending and i absolutely agree on that.Your choices matter throughout the whole game(on my second playthrough most of my friends died and i didn't allow Alenko on Normandy just to see what will happen,plus i don't like him that much,and ended up with only 4 squadmates which changes not only the story but even the gameplay as well).So,your previous choices matter throughout the game and at the end you are presented with something so big as a choice that it's hardly comprehensible for a human mind.I felt exactly like Shepard when he just says:"I...I don't know."Very simple and very powerful!I personally chose to destroy the reapers but does this choice doom the entire organic life in the long run by destroying the force that "restarts" it and thus keeping it from destroying itself?!I don't know,and that's the power of it.I guess many people just expected an "I win and let's all have a party in the citadel,drinks are on me!",kind of ending and didn't know what to feel when they were presented with these choices and facts,and,imo,it's exactly what the ending was intended to make you feel!A range of emotions:fear,sadness,joy,bitterness etc.Now,i haven't followed the interviews with bioware prior to the release of the game,so i didn't know what to expect.When i started the game i just knew"the ending is bad,man..." by reading different childish posts.And I experienced one of the most sophisticated,philosophical and emotional thing in a videogame so far!I go on with my daily life,do different things we do in life and just can't stop thinking about it,about the incomprehensible magnitude of it!

So,yeah,i just needed to share it with you guys.I'm sure it's all have been talked to death but i couldn't just say nothing.The whole thing makes you want to talk!Also,i don't know who is the music composer but the music is one of the biggest things that represents the trilogy,it's just so good.It has this 80's futuristic vibe that i noticed from the start of the first game.

I am a hardcore gamer and am usually all about the gameplay and just don't expect a game story to grab me,let alone make me feel different things but mass effect proved me wrong,and i am glad!Each time i watched the endings i was so close to start crying,seeing the struggle of all species,seeing the reapers reason and seeing that there is not one single straightforward solution to all this.IT felt so gentle and poetic!

 

Glad you like the ending. For me, well, I don't say I hate it, and I don't like it either. I'm just neutral I guess.

 

I can't achieve the game's ideal ending, but that's not really the case. Because the ending are pretty much the same (You can either destroy, control, or if you are good enough, synthesis) with different outcome (if you do very good, all the crews survived, if not, all the crew dead). I can see why many people points out the ending is lame. It is the outcomes that change, not the ending (you can compare other JRPG such as Atelier Rorona, which has multiple endings, with 2 true endings, some bad endings, but it has multiple endings). Mass Effect endings are kinda static. Only 3 endings (4, if your are good enough), you can choose either 1, then it based on EMS to determine if the universe is alive or dead. If you ask me, I don't think the ending parts are any good based on the game that has multitude decisions for you to make.

 

However, I can agree with you on a few things:

- Yes, every decision we made will affect this one final ending (or... Well, not going to spoil too much, if your Shepherd survived).

- The ending cinematic is awesome. Too awesome in fact. Maybe the best so far in my gaming life. This is one thing that shines.

[ImaginaryMatter]

I don't get where suddenly this 'victory through sacrifice' theme is supposed to come from.

If we look at the trilogy, the only instances where there is a necessary/inevitable loss of life of allies is:

(This is the extended version, btw.)

1. Eden Prime: Jenkins, Nihilus, Ashley's unit, and the one guarding Manuel and the other Doc (Actually plot devices, not related to any 'theme')
2. Virmire: Ash xor Kaidan
3. ME1 End: DA xor 5th fleet ships (Which belongs more into the 'Humans first vs Cooperation' theme)
4. ME2 beginning: XO Pressley
5. ME2: Colonists (Which is really more of an: 'Those evil guys are tots evil man, ebil I tell you!')
6. ME3: Most/Every  planet (Which again is a plot device to show how superior the Reapers are.)
7. Tuchanka: Mordin/Padok vs Urdnot Bakara (+ maybe Wrex) (I thought the theme here is: 'Do you trust Krogans')
8. Cerberus Coup: One of [Thane, Kirrahe, Salarian Councilor] (Introduction of Kai Lame -The only Cerberus goon able to kill someone with a name in ever)
9. ME3 end: Anderson

If we take only the ones that are actually of some meaning and involve a choice of some sort, the list is reduced to 3 entries [2,3,7].

That's not really that much instances (also pretty spread out) to constitute a major theme, imo.

(But at least its more than for 'Synths vs organics')

 

Ya. For the most part characters dying or being sacrificed, at least when a choice is present, is something to be subverted. Most choices in the game have a definite "best" outcome (100% Shepards play out remarkably similar to one another).

It's hard to accept some sort of "victory through sacrifice" when the majority of the time, loss of life is advertised by the game mechanics to be something to be avoided.

[Natureguy85]

Ya. For the most part characters dying or being sacrificed, at least when a choice is present, is something to be subverted. Most choices in the game have a definite "best" outcome (100% Shepards play out remarkably similar to one another).

It's hard to accept some sort of "victory through sacrifice" when the majority of the time, loss of life is advertised by the game mechanics to be something to be avoided.

 

Particularly when you can have a zero casualty "suicide mission".

[Benjamin Tan]

You're right. My reasoning is based on the fact that with very low EMS people die, Earth gets scorched, etc. which seems to be the opposite side of the spectrum, and more and better options unlock with higher EMS, with Synthesis being unlocked last. To me that speaks volumes. But I understand. I agree it's always better to have an actual source of such information. No arguing about that.

 

I think the 'canon' ending is that Shepherd choose to destroy the reapers and survived. You need a very high EMS, though. Although this is just a speculation, but I believe this is true based on descriptions of many. The moment your most used squad mates pause for a while when the crews wanted to put your name at the memorial wall in Normandy SR-2 and at that moment Shepherd woke up in the rubble, that highly suggest it is the canon ending. ME4 is on its way.

[Dantriges]

The next ME is set in Andromeda and Shep is not a part of it.

[Benjamin Tan]

Well, then let's see how the game progress. You have to bring Shepherd story out eventually. A big shot saving the galaxy, who doesn't want to retell the tale?

[Natureguy85]

The next ME is set in Andromeda and Shep is not a part of it.

 

True, but they could still create a canon as a history to reference the other series.

[AlanC9]

If they were going to have a canon, they wouldn't have to move to Andromeda.

[themikefest]

Just because the next game will take place in another galaxy doesn't mean there can't be another game in the Milky Way. 

[themikefest]

I think the 'canon' ending is that Shepherd choose to destroy the reapers and survived.

I agree with that. Though Shepard doesn't have to survive for the reapers to be destroyed.
 

You need a very high EMS, though.

3100 isn't that high or that hard to get. If a player has all the dlc, a save from ME2, and played multiplayer to raise their galactic readiness, its very easy to get 3100.

The only time its hard, if someone wants to say its hard, to get 3100 is if the player doesn't play multiplayer, does not complete any dlc, does not import a save from ME2, and is playing a default ME3 playthrough.
 

The moment your most used squad mates pause for a while when the crews wanted to put your name at the memorial wall

That is incorrect. It will either be your LI, if you have one, or someone that Shepard has spoken with the most. The few times I did not romance anyone, it was Samantha, who is not a squadmate, who held the nameplate and not the squadmate I used the most. Since Traynor is my LI, she was the one who was holding the nameplate.
 

ME4 is on its way.

If it is, it won't be till after Andromeda.
 

Well, then let's see how the game progress. You have to bring Shepherd story out eventually. A big shot saving the galaxy, who doesn't want to retell the tale?

I wouldn't have a problem bringing Shepard back. My personal favorite would be having Bioware redo the trilogy