3597 réponses à ce sujet

[Natureguy85]

Actually the sky has no colour.

 

While the point unsurprisingly went over your head, perhaps I shouldn't have chosen a color for comparison that the sky can actually change to during a sunrise/sunset. Altered appropriately.

[angol fear]

Glad I could help you. I try to be as smart as people are here, but it's really hard.

[KrrKs]

Dude, really!?

 

... Comparing the ME3 end with Deception is surprisingly accurate.

Trying to twist this construct into an argument that the end is somehow good is...

You realize you are contradicting yourself within that post multiple times, right?!

[Vanilka]

Deception criticism was unjustified? DECEPTION? That had an incredible amount of really embarrassing mistakes in it? Where the writer actually thought that the number on biotic implants (L2, L3, etc.) meant their power level and batarians had a ship with tantalus drive core and whatnot? Really? I know people can be nitpicky sometimes, but those were perfectly legit complaints as that book violated the lore in all kinds of ways. BioWare agreed those mistakes were made and promised a fix that, as far as I'm aware, never came.

[rossler]

Deception criticism was unjustified? DECEPTION? That had an incredible amount of really embarrassing mistakes in it? Where the writer actually thought that the number on biotic implants (L2, L3, etc.) meant their power level and batarians had a ship with tantalus drive core and whatnot? Really? I know people can be nitpicky sometimes, but those were perfectly legit complaints as that book violated the lore in all kinds of ways. BioWare agreed those mistakes were made and promised a fix that, as far as I'm aware, never came.

 

People take everything a game developer says as some kind of promise, and if they don't follow through with it, they'll go nuts. Got news for you, lots of companies have said things that never came, because plans change.
 

There are those who want a game to run to suit the experience they had somewhere else, no doubt of that , but try as you might you cannot escape the volume and origin of criticism on this aspect of the game which received wide publicity in the media.

 

Just because I've got a pile of angry letters on my desk about something, doesn't make them any more valid than those who write thankful letters. The part people are missing, is just because someone criticizes a game, doesn't make it true though. Some of these articles claim the ending is out of place, but there's lots that say it isn't, and some which praised the ending. Just because fans on the internet have a problem with Deception, doesn't mean everyone in the real world did.

 

Why are people still arguing about the ending? Because it hasn't been fixed the way they wanted it to be fixed. They won't take no for an answer. At this point, they're not requesting for Bioware to look into that ending, they're making demands. Say something once? That's a request. Say it over and over again until you get things fixed how you want them to be? That's a demand.

[Vanilka]

People take everything they say as some kind of promise, and if they don't follow through with it, they'll go nuts. Got news for you, lots of companies have said things that never came, because plans change.

 

Point of my post. You completely missed it.

[Natureguy85]

People take everything a game developer says as some kind of promise, and if they don't follow through with it, they'll go nuts. Got news for you, lots of companies have said things that never came, because plans change.
 

 

Just because I've got a pile of angry letters on my desk about something, doesn't make them any more valid than those who write thankful letters. The part people are missing, is just because someone criticizes a game, doesn't make it true though. Some of these articles claim the ending is out of place, but there's lots that say it isn't.Just because fans on the internet have a problem with Deception, doesn't mean everyone in the real world did.

 

Why are people still arguing about the ending? Because it hasn't been fixed the way they wanted it to be fixed. They won't take no for an answer. At this point, they're not requesting for Bioware to look into that ending, they're making demands. Say something once? That's a request. Say it over and over again until you get things fixed how you want them to be? That's a demand.

 

No, the criticisms are correct because they are based on reality, not because they are criticisms. As for why we still talk about the endings, it's several reasons, only one of which is how terrible, though, yes, divisive, they were. The other reasons are that we still really like Mass Effect and don't have a new one yet or much info on the one that is coming.

But is anyone demanding changes anymore? Now we're talking about them not repeating the same mistakes. And in order to avoid repeating your mistakes, you have to acknowledge that they were, in fact, mistakes.

 

 

Point of my post. You completely missed it.

 

This seems to be a habit so it's more likely a deflection since he can't deal with the actual point, which was that the mistakes were acknowledged.

[KrrKs]

Just because I've got a pile of angry letters on my desk about something, doesn't make them any more valid than those who write thankful letters. The part people are missing, is just because someone criticizes a game, doesn't make it true though. Some of these articles claim the ending is out of place, but there's lots that say it isn't, and some which praised the ending.

 

1. This is a two way street.

2. What you are missing is that all these 'someones who criticize the game' made points of what is wrong.

Some of the points are more important for certain people than for others (E.g., I find Shep's survival/not survival not important), but the absolute vast majority of these points is totally valid. And so far none of them have in any way shape or form be shown to be wrong.

[angol fear]

But who valids these points ?

[Dantriges]

Edit: Oh someone snuck in a response I didn´t see before posting.

 

I finished it half a year ago, so it´s not so long ago for me. Came here soon afterwards to see what other people think about it. Stayed because of some contacts I made.

Don´t think anyone here is making demands or making demands and expects them to be met at least. The most people hope for is that BW doesn´t try that again. What a lot of people fear is that the whole affair gets reduced to "don´t kill the lead, everything else is fine."

 

Why do we stil have this debate here, when it´s not a complaint campaign? IMO, this is a board for debating about the ME franchise, the subforum is about the story of ME 3.  The ending is still a topic, everyone has an opinion about it, so they voice it.

 

I don´t log what kind of vitriol the defenders get thrown at, probably there is something from someone that they get angry about. sometimes it´s justified, sometimes it´s just a misunderstanding.

 

If I condense the stuff thrown at me, most of it boils down to, too stupid to get it and I am not allowed to have an opinion. Interesting idea. What am I allowed to have. The right to preorder whatever BW puts out, like some nice little mindless drone? 

[Natureguy85]

But who valids these points ?

 

It's not really who as much as how. Argument and analysis is the answer.

 

 

If I condense the stuff thrown at me, most of it boils down to, too stupid to get it and I am not allowed to have an opinion. Interesting idea. What am I allowed to have. The right to preorder whatever BW puts out, like some nice little mindless drone? 

 

Didn't you get the memo? Being a fan of something means you praise everything about it, especially changes that fundamentally alter what that thing was about.

[angol fear]

It's not really who as much as how. Argument and analysis is the answer.

Galileo Galilei had arguments and did analysis and we all know how it ended.
So my question still who valids it ?

[Oni Changas]

Galileo Galilei had arguments and did analysis and we all know how it ended.
So my question still who valids it ?

Logic, literary competence, and other comparable works.

 

ME3 has a great lack of the former, and while I'd love to find and post the many examples and posts on this very forum from 2012 (such as a college professor going in on how stupid some things were rewritten to be) I'll just leave you with this gem: 

 

EDIT: Well, some ****s at youtube saw fit to remove the best video rundown of ME3's RGB, so I've given you the abridged version

[Cobwebmaster]

Galileo Galilei had arguments and did analysis and we all know how it ended.
So my question still who valids it ?

Surely volume of metaphoric finger pointing is a validation process in itself! Inasmuch as  the reason for the gripe is  common to many, a consensus has formed. The validation process will be subjective irrespective of whether you are the game producer or the user. Another issue with validation is the so called impartial or independent game reviewers who can at whim (or pressure from advertisers) rubbish the complaints by simply saying " Well we like it!" 

So are you saying that criticisms are sunspots? Or that Mass Effect groaners are heretics? Either way a refund would not go amiss to those that are seriously upset with the product as a whole, but maybe for other reasons as well. Given the inevitability of the absence of refunds or some other placatory gesture, Natureguy85's point about acknowledging the error(s) would make a lot of the groans go away in an ideal world. Better still it would put EA and/or Bioware on self notice that they needed "To Do Better!" Sadly, experience of subsequent rpg releases so far from that source have proved otherwise

 

 

[Dantriges]

So are you saying that criticisms are sunspots? Or that Mass Effect groaners are heretics?

 

Nobody expects the canadian inquisition.

[Cobwebmaster]

Nobody expects the canadian inquisition.

 Agreed. I uninstalled mine after playing it only a couple of times. £50 straight down the john! Best NPC by far in that game? The gay wizard from Tevinter (forgotten his name). Many thanks to David Gaider (again) for that one, who I hear has now left Bioware for pastures new

[Reorte]

So are you saying that criticisms are sunspots? Or that Mass Effect groaners are heretics? Either way a refund would not go amiss to those that are seriously upset with the product as a whole, but maybe for other reasons as well.

Not so sure about that to be honest. Refunds if it had been unplayable buggy but because people didn't like it (no matter how well-deserved that dislike was)? As much as I despised the ending (and didn't think much of some other bits) that would be going too far IMO. Mind you I've had more than my money's worth with MP.

[von uber]

Agreed. I uninstalled mine after playing it only a couple of times. £50 straight down the john! Best NPC by far in that game? The gay wizard from Tevinter (forgotten his name). Many thanks to David Gaider (again) for that one, who I hear has now left Bioware for pastures new

Dorian - and I agree, definitely the best. And also about money down the bog.

[KrrKs]

Nobody expects the canadian inquisition.

Liked for Monty Python reference.

[Vanilka]

Hm, I fell in love with the Inquisition's cast. Mostly anyway. I also enjoy the game. Not that I think it's perfect, but still.

[Natureguy85]

Galileo Galilei had arguments and did analysis and we all know how it ended.
So my question still who valids it ?

 

It ended with Galileo being remembered and recognized as correct and one of the most important and influential people in the history of science.

[Ithurael]

Logic, literary competence, and other comparable works.

 

ME3 has a great lack of the former, and while I'd love to find and post the many examples and posts on this very forum from 2012 (such as a college professor going in on how stupid some things were rewritten to be) I'll just leave you with this gem: 

 

EDIT: Well, some ****s at youtube saw fit to remove the best video rundown of ME3's RGB, so I've given you the abridged version

 

Yeah, it sucks that the MrBtounge vid got taken down by CBS (probably for the Star Trek footage), but here are some other reviews, analysis, videos and writeups on the failings of ME3:

 

MR BTounge: Tasteful Understated Nerdrage: ME3 Ending (Original Ending)

 

Click

 

MR BTounge: Additional Clarity (Original Ending)

 

Click

 

MR BTounge: Extended Cut Review

 

Click

 

Rageaholic Game Mechanics Review (Original Ending)

 

Click

 

FUFriendsUnited Game Mechanics Review (Original Ending)

 

Click

 

Art Argument & Mass Effect 3 (Original Ending)

 

click

 

Shameus Young on Mass Effect and Everything that went wrong: (Original Ending)

http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=27792

 

This is not a Pipe review (Original Ending)

http://awtr.ca/long:this-is-not-a-pipe

 

There are many more, and even more representations on the rules/standards of writing and how ME3's ending breaks those rules/standards. I think Angol is trying to 'Poison the Well' on anyone who uses citations, facts, and current standards to show that ME3s ending is incoherent. A part of me thinks that he believes that by liking ME3's ending and going against the norm one becomes like that of Galileo Galilei or other correct intellectuals who were radical at the time. This is not really that true as much as it is just a bit of idealism seeping in.

 

The irony is that Galileo did have a whole bunch of writeups, analysis, and observable (and repeatable) information to back up his claim. The Church just shut him down because of what their own beliefs said (one could say it was their own headcanon). Which, in a way, is kinda funny when you see BSN interactions.

 

Basically, the absolute best way to create a valid arguement is to:

-be consistant

-be objective

-represent or follow the scientific method

-cite your sources

-ensure your results are repeatable

[ImaginaryMatter]

 

Art Argument & Mass Effect 3 (Original Ending)

 

click

 

"So videogamey."

 

That guy also has some select clips from the Final Hours video. They're pretty revealing.

[Natureguy85]

Yeah, it sucks that the MrBtounge vid got taken down by CBS (probably for the Star Trek footage), but here are some other reviews, analysis, videos and writeups on the failings of ME3:

 

MR BTounge: Tasteful Understated Nerdrage: ME3 Ending (Original Ending)

 

Click

 

MR BTounge: Additional Clarity (Original Ending)

 

Click

 

MR BTounge: Extended Cut Review

 

Click

 

Rageaholic Game Mechanics Review (Original Ending)

 

Click

 

FUFriendsUnited Game Mechanics Review (Original Ending)

 

Click

 

Art Argument & Mass Effect 3 (Original Ending)

 

click

 

Shameus Young on Mass Effect and Everything that went wrong: (Original Ending)

http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=27792

 

This is not a Pipe review (Original Ending)

http://awtr.ca/long:this-is-not-a-pipe

 

There are many more, and even more representations on the rules/standards of writing and how ME3's ending breaks those rules/standards. I think Angol is trying to 'Poison the Well' on anyone who uses citations, facts, and current standards to show that ME3s ending is incoherent. A part of me thinks that he believes that by liking ME3's ending and going against the norm one becomes like that of Galileo Galilei or other correct intellectuals who were radical at the time. This is not really that true as much as it is just a bit of idealism seeping in.

 

The irony is that Galileo did have a whole bunch of writeups, analysis, and observable (and repeatable) information to back up his claim. The Church just shut him down because of what their own beliefs said (one could say it was their own headcanon). Which, in a way, is kinda funny when you see BSN interactions.

 

Basically, the absolute best way to create a valid arguement is to:

-be consistant

-be objective

-represent or follow the scientific method

-cite your sources

-ensure your results are repeatable

 

I feel like you posted my signature

[Abedsbrother]

Seriously, though, you folks need to post more critiques from post-Extended Cut and post-Leviathan DLC. All those "Original Ending" links, and only two links that discuss the endings with the Extended Cut? That's called "proof padding."

 

Disagree with MrBtongue's statement that opinions are formed collectively. They can be formed and frequently are expressed collectively, but their formation is highly personal. It's a paper-thin excuse he created for gaming journalists who gave the game a high rating. "They were locked on a [figurative] desert island with no ability to collectively form an opinion!" Wtf? An opinion shared is an opinion more likely to be - correct? Implying that there is a "correct" opinion is an incredibly dangerous path to walk. 

 

I'm not saying that the Mass Effect 3 endings were the best that could have been devised, but I would love to see some criticism that does not rely on essentialist empiricism. It can be argued that Mass Effect 3's endings incorporate existentialism, surrealism and (depending on the ending chosen) elements of transhumanism, in addition to traditional sci-fi tropes (discussed by GalaticPillow guest Rei). Throw enough "isms" together, and you've got art - which is, itself, defined by what people view as art (i.e., there is no objective standard of art, as discussed by Hume - which undercuts the very first sentence of the This is Not A Pipe review).