3587 réponses à ce sujet

[dorktainian]

No. Everything indicates that it all does happen. The only reason to believe it doesn't is that it doesn't make a lot of sense, but that's because of bad writing, not because it means something else. If Shepard never makes it to the Citadel the story not over because Shepard is laying on the ground and the war is still ongoing. Also, why would we only see Shepard breath in high EMS? (Not that the last question can't be asked of a literal view, but I do have an answer.)

because shep in high EMS destroy (the best ending) has the mental fortitude to do so.  Do you believe he is lying in london among the rubble as I do?

 

there are a lot of things going on even in the first room which should be a dead givaway, such as when the keeper removes the helmet of the dead soldier when you first arrive, that soldier is Coates.  But Coates was nowhere to be seen during the beam run, and neither was Anderson.  Try looking for anyone else making the beam during the beam run.  Nobody makes it.  Nobody.  The version of TIM we meet is a Husk.  Ergo not TIM.  Apparently Anderson 'followed' you up, but if you look around there is nobody at all following shepard to that beam - if what you see is real that is.  He made it to the controls first apparently as well.  Seems legit.

 

The rivers of blood running out of the keeper chambers are running straight towards the reaper baby making machine. Star Jar.  The ultimate "mindtrip".  It can make you change your mind... apparently if you are not strong enough.   It offers you things you would never do prior to the beam run, but how many have fallen for his trap and chosen control or synthesis?

 

I try to interpret it all as I see it.  All I see during the beam run is that nobody gets past harbinger.  Shepard gets hit- nearly killing him.  Harbinger the reaper does not miss targets or let them survive unless it has reason to do so imo. I look at Shepard as being the Catalyst.  Remember the one thing the Protheans were missing?  The Catalyst.  

 

I don't think they were, only that the Prothean that made it that far chose badly.

 

Starjar speaks to you in a combination of male shep and femsheps voice.  Coincidence?   It is in the Reapers interests for the Catalyst to choose. how could harbie remove the physical threat while still allowing shepard to choose?  

[Catastrophy]

The original ending was bad, because there was no "redemption" for the character you played and build up for three games in an epic struggle of galactic survival.

 

In the end, you had to throw the protagonist into a meatgrinder like a piece of trash. It's like building a sandcastle and see that malicious brat next door destroy it with a cheeky smile. You don't do that to people and I think they realized that part when they did the EC.

[Natureguy85]

because shep in high EMS destroy (the best ending) has the mental fortitude to do so.  Do you believe he is lying in london among the rubble as I do?

 

there are a lot of things going on even in the first room which should be a dead givaway, such as when the keeper removes the helmet of the dead soldier when you first arrive, that soldier is Coates.  But Coates was nowhere to be seen during the beam run, and neither was Anderson.  Try looking for anyone else making the beam during the beam run.  Nobody makes it.  Nobody.  The version of TIM we meet is a Husk.  Ergo not TIM.  Apparently Anderson 'followed' you up, but if you look around there is nobody at all following shepard to that beam - if what you see is real that is.  He made it to the controls first apparently as well.  Seems legit.

 

The rivers of blood running out of the keeper chambers are running straight towards the reaper baby making machine. Star Jar.  The ultimate "mindtrip".  It can make you change your mind... apparently if you are not strong enough.   It offers you things you would never do prior to the beam run, but how many have fallen for his trap and chosen control or synthesis?

 

I try to interpret it all as I see it.  All I see during the beam run is that nobody gets past harbinger.  Shepard gets hit- nearly killing him.  Harbinger the reaper does not miss targets or let them survive unless it has reason to do so imo. I look at Shepard as being the Catalyst.  Remember the one thing the Protheans were missing?  The Catalyst.  

 

I don't think they were, only that the Prothean that made it that far chose badly.

 

Starjar speaks to you in a combination of male shep and femsheps voice.  Coincidence?   It is in the Reapers interests for the Catalyst to choose. how could harbie remove the physical threat while still allowing shepard to choose?  

 

What does EMS have to do with Shepard's mental fortitude? This you fabricating a story path to your predetermined conclusion rather than following the events of the story to their end.

 

As for where Shepard is, I honestly have no idea. Neither London nor the Citadel make any sense. I think it was just a lazy "reward" for getting a high score. EMS was just score.

 

The soldier being Coates is asset reuse, just like how Shepard and Cortez, and many, if not all, other males, have the same body model. You can really tell in their romance scene when you see their backs and they have the same birthmark; it's actually hilarious.  You can't see Coates' face in the scene as presented, so it's no big deal. You're assigning meaning to nothing.

 

You're right that Anderson getting their first makes no sense, but nonsense does not mean that there is some deeper meaning. It could, but that alone is not enough. Again, I say it's just bad writing. TIM isn't quite to the level of husk, but I can see why you make the comparison. However, we don't know if this is due to Reaper implants like Saren, the surgery he underwent in that video you see on the Cerberus base, or whatever made his eyes all tech blue back in the second game.

 

The rivers of blood would flow into the chasm. We don't see any Reaper baby making machine here, though we can assume there is one. I like your name "Star Jar", though I'd finish it and call it "Star Jar Binks" because it is just as stupid, just as out of place, and invokes just as much well deserved hatred. Anyway, the Catalyst is above, not below.

 

Nobody has "fallen for his trap and chosen control or synthesis" because the Crucible had never been completed. Synthesis wasn't even possible until right at that moment.

 

Why would there be significance to the voice using male and female Shepard voices? Only one Shepard exists per playthrough. The opposite voice would have no meaning to Shepard and neither is as prominent as the child voice.

 

Why do the Reapers need Shepard to choose? Why are we taking that line at face value and not others?

 

As I said above, you're seeing something strange and assigning it a lot of meaning that it really can't carry.

 

The original ending was bad, because there was no "redemption" for the character you played and build up for three games in an epic struggle of galactic survival.

 

In the end, you had to throw the protagonist into a meatgrinder like a piece of trash. It's like building a sandcastle and see that malicious brat next door destroy it with a cheeky smile. You don't do that to people and I think they realized that part when they did the EC.

 

What do you mean by "redemption?" I ask because you put it in quotes and it's up for debate if Shepard needs redemption.

[angol fear]

I think the intro to ME2, and the entire game really, suggest otherwise.They killed Shepard "because drama" and then did not even attempt to address any deep or philosophical implications. They just gave you a new ship and crew and told you to go forth and shoot things. The deepest things got was Mordin's loyalty mission, and that was awesome other than the silly "humans most diverse" thing.

 

So can you explain why Mass Effect 2 introduced explicitly the concept of "essence" which is a word used in philosophy? Was it a mistake? They didn't want to put it in the game? They read the word somewhere and were thinking "hey! that sounds cool, let's put it in the game!"?

[themikefest]

After Shepard is shot by Harbinger, Coates and the female voice say regroup, retreat. Why? Harbinger is seen flying away. Now is the perfect time to get to the beam. The other thing is why didn't Anderson tell them to disregard that order and run to the beam. He did say "there can be no retreat, no stepping back. We move forward at all cost". So what changed? Is it because BioWare wanted to have Anderson and Shepard to have a touchy-feely scene together? I would say yeah.

 

Having Anderson on the Citadel added nothing. It was just a way to kill off a character. Had TIM carried a weapon instead of pulling it out of Anderson's backside, the scene would play out the same.

[Natureguy85]

So can you explain why Mass Effect 2 introduced explicitly the concept of "essence" which is a word used in philosophy? Was it a mistake? They didn't want to put it in the game? They read the word somewhere and were thinking "hey! that sounds cool, let's put it in the game!"?

 

Yeah, that's probably exactly what happened. Suddenly a metaphysical concept was shoved into this sci-fi story. It's like "midichlorians" in The Phantom Menace. It wasn't a mistake in the sense that they did it by accident but it sure as heck was a mistake in that it didn't fit and they shouldn't have done it. Note that your example is something shoved into one sentence at the end of the story, not something woven throughout. It was also never discussed again until the end of ME3.

 

 

After Shepard is shot by Harbinger, Coates and the female voice say regroup, retreat. Why? Harbinger is seen flying away. Now is the perfect time to get to the beam. The other thing is why didn't Anderson tell them to disregard that order and run to the beam. He did say "there can be no retreat, no stepping back. We forward at all cost". So what changed? Is it because BioWare wanted to have Anderson and Shepard to have a touchy-feely scene together? I would say yeah.

 

Having Anderson on the Citadel added nothing. It was just a way to kill off a character. Had TIM carried a weapon instead of pulling it out of Anderson's backside, the scene would play out the same.

 

The question isn't "why", it's "who." Hammer team, those charging, is wiped out. So who is Coates telling to fall back?

 

You're right that having Anderson on the Citadel didn't really add a lot to the scene with TIM, but I did like their "touchy-feely" moment afterward. The whole thing with TIM was just strange and bad though. There is never any weight to the fact that, though controlled by TIM, Shepard shot Anderson.

[Catastrophy]

[...]

 

 

What do you mean by "redemption?" I ask because you put it in quotes and it's up for debate if Shepard needs redemption.

I don't know if it's the right word - I'd use "Erlösung" in my language without the religious notion but including the metaphysical part. It has to do with "closure" and an affirmation that all the effort was meaningful in some way.

[themikefest]

The question isn't "why", it's "who." Hammer team, those charging, is wiped out. So who is Coates telling to fall back?

The question is why. If the reaper leaves the area, why would Coates say retreat, regroup? Obviously some survived. I would guess soldiers getting ready to run to beam who stopped  and retreated back to whatever location when Coates made that comment.

[rossler]

The original ending was bad, because there was no "redemption" for the character you played and build up for three games in an epic struggle of galactic survival.

 

In the end, you had to throw the protagonist into a meatgrinder like a piece of trash. It's like building a sandcastle and see that malicious brat next door destroy it with a cheeky smile. You don't do that to people and I think they realized that part when they did the EC.

 

Shepard doesn't get thrown into the meatgrinder if your EMS is 3100+ (or 4000+ for the original ending) and you choose destroy.

[themikefest]

Shepard doesn't get thrown into the meatgrinder if your EMS is 3100+ (or 4000+ for the original ending) and you choose destroy.

Or if ems is 5000, for the original ending, if TIM shoots Anderson

 

Or if ems is 3200 if TIM shoots Anderson

[Mlady]

After beating it again a few days ago, I can't help but feel confused now at the ending. I swear Shepard is in London. Nothing else could explain his/her survival. And that rubble is not the Citadel. I spent enough time running through London to know where I'm at thank you very much. I'm starting to think that after the beam hit Shepard, they were thrown into that rubble and the rest was in their mind, but not IT. No I think TIM was trying for indoctrination but the player fought it. I think the Red/Blue/Green ending was based on Shepard's choices mentally. Once he/she made their choice, their thoughts somehow linked to the Crucible caused the blast. Might sound stupid, but if they wanted Shepard to appear alive under Citadel rubble, they should have made a more Citadel-like background and explained how they survived an explosion like that if their partly synthesized body was now destroyed.

 

Also the Protheans helped make the Crucible and they are all about communicating through the mind, plus Javik preps you for it too in his own weird way. Saying things like "don't let others tell you what do to, do what you must" etc...

[Catastrophy]

Shepard doesn't get thrown into the meatgrinder if your EMS is 3100+ (or 4000+ for the original ending) and you choose destroy.

Details. The big picture is: the protagonist gets ***** hard no matter what colour it's coated in.

[rossler]

I disagree. I destroyed the Reapers, survived, and became a galactic legend.

 

Others, controlled the Reapers and became some kind of God.

 

If you chose synthesis, the galaxy is at peace with the Reapers.

 

That isn't being screwed over.

[Dantriges]

Yeah, that's probably exactly what happened. Suddenly a metaphysical concept was shoved into this sci-fi story. It's like "midichlorians" in The Phantom Menace. It wasn't a mistake in the sense that they did it by accident but it sure as heck was a mistake in that it didn't fit and they shouldn't have done it. Note that your example is something shoved into one sentence at the end of the story, not something woven throughout. It was also never discussed again until the end of ME3.

 

Let´s not forget all the hollywoody cinematics, tropey speeches and "at any cost." Essence or life force was used twice IIRC. First when we saw the baby reaper and when the catalyst talked about synthesis. Babylon 5 had a similar concept and touched the subject regularly. We had soulhunters, reincarnation, soul wandering across species  as a major topic, machines that transferred lifeforce, elder species that manipulated their essence, transferred life energy etc. We never found out in ME if this essence is a thing or just a shorthand for, we make carbon nanotubes out of your meat and digitize your memory, because EDi had no other term to describe it or if essence is a thing. 

[Iakus]

The original ending was bad, because there was no "redemption" for the character you played and build up for three games in an epic struggle of galactic survival.

 

In the end, you had to throw the protagonist into a meatgrinder like a piece of trash. It's like building a sandcastle and see that malicious brat next door destroy it with a cheeky smile. You don't do that to people and I think they realized that part when they did the EC.

I'd be more inclined to agree if EC wasn't mostly the same garbage with more dialogue.

 

I don't think a darn thing was learned.  They just figured we were simply too dim to understand the Art

[Iakus]

Shepard doesn't get thrown into the meatgrinder if your EMS is 3100+ (or 4000+ for the original ending) and you choose destroy.

Yeah, Shep just ends up a faceless torso.

 

Oh, and killed more people than Saren ever dreamed of.

[Dantriges]

I don't know if it's the right word - I'd use "Erlösung" in my language without the religious notion but including the metaphysical part. It has to do with "closure" and an affirmation that all the effort was meaningful in some way.

 

That would be salvation, but yeah too religious.

[Bowlcuts]

The lack of closure is what makes me hate the ending(s).

[rossler]

The lack of closure is what makes me hate the ending(s).

 

The Extended Cut added some closure. Also Citadel DLC.

 

Yeah, Shep just ends up a faceless torso.

 

Oh, and killed more people than Saren ever dreamed of.

 

Not a faceless torso:

 

There's a little datapad at the end which says Shepard has become a legend by ending the Reaper threat.

 

I killed a lot of husks, and other Reaper ground soldiers who got in my way. Doesn't make it a bad thing. They might have been former friends of mine, but the Reapers turned them against me. So they are no longer themselves anymore. Death is a better outcome than being a Reaper husk. Javik said so. 

[AlanC9]

The soldier being Coates is asset reuse, just like how Shepard and Cortez, and many, if not all, other males, have the same body model. You can really tell in their romance scene when you see their backs and they have the same birthmark; it's actually hilarious.  You can't see Coates' face in the scene as presented, so it's no big deal. You're assigning meaning to nothing.

Is it OK if I borrow the italed every time IT comes up?

[Iakus]

 

Not a faceless torso:

 

There's a little datapad at the end which says Shepard has become a legend by ending the Reaper threat.

 

I killed a lot of husks, and other Reaper ground soldiers who got in my way. Doesn't make it a bad thing. They might have been former friends of mine, but the Reapers turned them against me. So they are no longer themselves anymore. Death is a better outcome than being a Reaper slave. Javik said so. 

 

Ray Palmer: Legends?

Dr. Martin Stein: I, um, I hate to nitpick, but doesn't a legend have to be dead?
Kendra Saunders: Yeah, see, uh, that's deal breaker for me, so I'm gonna pass.

 

[themikefest]

The Extended Cut added some closure. Also Citadel DLC.

Citadel dlc? How is that closure? Unless you're counting that people play it after the game to use as closure. Sure. Whatever. I don't consider the dlc to be any kind of closure. Its a dlc that has a party that lets Shepard get together with the Normandy crew.

[Midnight Bliss]

Citadel dlc? How is that closure? Unless you're counting that people play it after the game to use as closure. Sure. Whatever. I don't consider the dlc to be any kind of closure. Its a dlc that has a party that lets Shepard get together with the Normandy crew.

I never got people who play Citadel as the "ending" And find that satisfying. Nothing about that story feels even remotely like it would ever be the ending of the trilogy to me, and it most certainly isn't a substitute for the ending having some actual finality and closure to it either.

[rossler]

Citadel dlc? How is that closure? Unless you're counting that people play it after the game to use as closure. Sure. Whatever. I don't consider the dlc to be any kind of closure. Its a dlc that has a party that lets Shepard get together with the Normandy crew.

 

There are people who ignore the Reaper story and focus on the characters. They believe Citadel DLC is the real ending and conclusion to the trilogy. As long as they get to hang out with the people they care about, that's all that matters. If the Reapers destroyed everything, they couldn't care less.

 

Some people will actually play the DLC, finish it, and call it a day. They don't touch London or the rest of the game. 

 

The Reapers, as far as I'm concerned are the central conflict.

 

I never got people who play Citadel as the "ending" And find that satisfying. Nothing about that story feels even remotely like it would ever be the ending of the trilogy to me, and it most certainly isn't a substitute for the ending having some actual finality and closure to it either.

 

Citadel DLC is like half time at the Super Bowl. Still have two quarters to play.

[Natureguy85]

Let´s not forget all the hollywoody cinematics, tropey speeches and "at any cost." Essence or life force was used twice IIRC. First when we saw the baby reaper and when the catalyst talked about synthesis. Babylon 5 had a similar concept and touched the subject regularly. We had soulhunters, reincarnation, soul wandering across species  as a major topic, machines that transferred lifeforce, elder species that manipulated their essence, transferred life energy etc. We never found out in ME if this essence is a thing or just a shorthand for, we make carbon nanotubes out of your meat and digitize your memory, because EDi had no other term to describe it or if essence is a thing. 

 

Most importantly, you say Babylon 5 made these ideas a regular part of the show. They weren't tacked on.

 

 

Is it OK if I borrow the italed every time IT comes up?

 

Please do, but I will charge 5 cents each time

Seriously, use it. IT is based on a lot of induction rather than deduction.

 

 

The Extended Cut added some closure. Also Citadel DLC.

 

Citadel dlc? How is that closure? Unless you're counting that people play it after the game to use as closure. Sure. Whatever. I don't consider the dlc to be any kind of closure. Its a dlc that has a party that lets Shepard get together with the Normandy crew.

 

 

There are people who ignore the Reaper story and focus on the characters. They believe Citadel DLC is the real ending and conclusion to the trilogy. As long as they get to hang out with the people they care about, that's all that matters. If the Reapers destroyed everything, they couldn't care less.

 

Some people will actually play the DLC just before Cronos Station (as Citadel can't be accessed after that), finish it, and call it a day. They don't touch London or the rest of the game. 

 

The Reapers, as far as I'm concerned are the central conflict and not each characters' personal issues.

 

The Reapers are the central conflict, but at least beginning in ME2, the focus of the story is the characters. It's like Star Wars where the Empire was the central conflict but the focus was on the characters. And ultimately, the fall of the Empire wasn't as important as the redemption of Darth Vader and Luke becoming a Jedi.

So Citadel might give emotional closure to the relationships, but certainly not to the plot. The endings needed better epilogues. For me, Citadel wouldn't work as closure because I want to know what my team does after the war. However, it might be some catharsis and help diminish how badly the ending jettisoned the characters and relationships.