3573 réponses à ce sujet

[wright1978]

Maybe it was really really bad and deserved all that attention?

If something that bad hadn't of got that attention I'd be deeply worried about the state of the human race.

[rossler]

You are making an argument to authority here rossler (one you have made many times over). How then do we know that Stephanie Meyer is a bad writer, Uwe Boll, you/me/anyone? It is simple, we look at the standard convention of Narrative Coherence and we look how the product stands up.

 

So based on that Stephanie Meyer is a bad writer? I'm sure she'd take offense to you saying that.

 

If I was her and people were calling me a bad writer, why should I listen to them? I would ignore them.

 

Calling someone a bad writer isn't criticism, it's vitriol.

 

Someone did not read through those two cited points in their entirety. These are actual mistakes. Please read through in entirety and verify on all sources.Someone did not read through those two cited points in their entirety. These are actual mistakes. Please read through in entirety and verify on all sources.

 

Hey Ithurael, video games are made by people. They aren't perfect, and are going to make mistakes. There is no such thing as a perfect product. Deal with it.

 

What you may perceive to be a plot hole the size of a moon crater (enough to break the script), might only be a few centimeters across. A very small error, and not a game breaking one, in other words.

[Ithurael]

So based on that Stephanie Meyer is a bad writer? I'm sure she'd take offense to you saying that.

 

Ok, by right she should. Her storys were incosistant, characters were bland, and there were more than enough issues in the writing alone to justify me saying that. The world is not an "Everybody wins" world. If you take offense to something someone has factually represented, the issue is on you.

 

 

Hey Ithurael, video games are made by people. They aren't perfect, and are going to make mistakes. There is no such thing as a perfect product. Deal with it.

 

I know and I know. But this little statement completly breaks your initial statement that there are no issues with the product - despite there being a substantial amount of information. ME3's ending was sub-par vs the entire series or even ME3 itself. The best thing we can do is move on and hope Bioware doesn't mess up again or EA doesn't rush them again.

 

And while there is truly no such thing a Perfect you will note I never said perfect - nor will I ever. There are, however, standards that we use to qualify and quantify good writing over bad, and the ending of ME 3 is loaded with Bad writing. Deal with it homeslice

[rossler]

ME3's ending was sub-par vs the entire series or even ME3 itself.

 

That's subjective. SpoonyOne (a few pages back) loved the ending, while you didn't. He had other issues with the game though.

 

And while there is truly no such thing a Perfect you will note I never said perfect - nor will I ever. There are, however, standards that we use to qualify and quantify good writing over bad, and the ending of ME 3 is loaded with Bad writing. Deal with it homeslice

 

Again, subjective. You believe the ending was badly written, but the OP, myself, and several others don't.

 

I know and I know. But this little statement completly breaks your initial statement that there are no issues with the product - despite there being a substantial amount of information. ME3's ending was sub-par vs the entire series or even ME3 itself. The best thing we can do is move on and hope Bioware doesn't mess up again or EA doesn't rush them again.

 

The only way to change things is to not buy any future Bioware or EA products. It's not a matter of hoping or voicing your opinion.

 

Voicing your opinion accomplishes nothing.

Voting with your wallet, accomplishes something. Affects their future game sales.

Voicing your opinion as well as voting with your wallet accomplishes something. Affects their future game sales.

[Ithurael]

That's subjective. SpoonyOne (a few pages back) loved the ending, while you didn't. He had other issues with the game though.

 

 

Lol, nope

 

Post showing research done on Narrative Theory, Narratology, and Narrative structure tieing back into how and why ME3's ending was poorly written

http://pastebin.com/7s5PSnSJ

 

Second post showing a look into Seminology, Narrative Paradigm, and other sources to show what Narrative Coherence is and where ME3 breaks it.

http://pastebin.com/xz0iZfVh

 

Here are other breakdowns that look at the many failings fo ME3s ending

MR BTounge: Tasteful Understated Nerdrage: ME3 Ending (Original Ending)

 

MR BTounge: Additional Clarity (Original Ending)

 

MR BTounge: Extended Cut Review

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jT_x64921ls

 

Rageaholic Game Mechanics Review (Original Ending)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGFJ43jv4eg

 

FUFriendsUnited Game Mechanics Review (Original Ending)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M-jtGoYX_Q

 

Art Argument & Mass Effect 3 (Original Ending)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBETU-uOGh8

 

Shameus Young on Mass Effect and Everything that went wrong: (Original Ending)

http://www.shamusyou...edtale/?p=27792

http://www.escapistm...ing-Controversy

 

Looking at and actually showing the failures of ME3's ending by citing all known conventions, classes, and standards ranging from Narratology, Narrative Theory, and Seminology. All point to the same result and all show ME's ending breaks narrative coherence and is - again - poorly written. You can like it rossler, but you liking it =/= it isn't poorly written. Maybe if you could acutally show how there are not plotholes, contrivances, etc without using headcanon or the normal fallacies you lead with you could have a better stance. Now while it is sweet and fun to try and counter rational facts by calling them subjective the retorte is a bit silly to use. unless you want to troll a forum in which case you have a great chance. Trying to redefine facts and reality to meet your argument or even your imagination is not only delusional but intellectually dishonest. And, given the raw amount of santimonious sophistry you have already demonstrated in this thread, I have have a strong hunch this is what you will represent.

 

 

 

Again, subjective. You believe the ending was badly written, but the OP, myself, and several others don't.

 

I have shown how the ending was badly written because it has the trademark signs of being poorly written. Look up standard conventions like Narrative Coherence, hell my second post had tons and tons of definitions, examples, etc that show the common correltion of what represents narrative coherence. Using that we can derive the issues in ME3's finale and what was poorly written vs not. I highly suggest you read less you continue calling facts subjective and looking like a bit of a fool.

 

 

The only way to change things is to not buy any future Bioware or EA products. It's not a matter of hoping or voicing your opinion.

 

Voicing your opinion accomplishes nothing.

Voting with your wallet, accomplishes something. Affects their future game sales.

Voicing your opinion as well as voting with your wallet accomplishes something. Affects their future game sales.

 

You are kind of right. That is why I haven't bought any Bioware product or EA product since Leviathan. Influencing sales will possibly cause them to pay more attention to future releases and how they develop them, though EA could just shut down the studio and that would be that. That doesn't mean we cannot provide feedback on the product itself. If bioware listens then great if not well too bad for them there are always going to be more companies. Though no matter what, Tone at the Top will prevail no matter what we say or do.

 

You just have to voice your findings and experience to the vendor (approval or disapproval) and then continue to support or not. If you say just "Don't buy and shut up" then you do not live in the digital age and you may be hoping just to stifle criticism of a game you like. Sorry bud - wont happen in today'd day and age.

[ImaginaryMatter]

I liked this screen writers dude's comments on the ending: http://forum.bioware...-ending-thread/

[angol fear]

But how can we consider that something is made by someone if we ignore that there is an intention ? Creation ex nihilo ?

[rossler]

It's pretty clear the writers, as well as many others disagree with you, Ithurael, but you keep on trying to prove them wrong. Just keep on doing what you're doing. Never give up, never surrender.

 

In case you're wondering, I'm referring to this.

[aoibhealfae]

... sigh, I don't think the ending is perfect but as far as endings in scifi goes, in my 27 years old worth of existence as a scifi and fantasy geek, Mass Effect still rank low on the worst badly written ending ever. Has nobody watch Battlestar Galactica or read Dune series?
 

Why all this rage?

[wright1978]

... sigh, I don't think the ending is perfect but as far as endings in scifi goes, in my 27 years old worth of existence as a scifi and fantasy geek, Mass Effect still rank low on the worst badly written ending ever. Has nobody watch Battlestar Galactica or read Dune series?
 

Why all this rage?

 

In my 30+ years of experience as a sci-fi/fantasy geek it's right at the top of the badly written ending ever scale.

[Sheridan31]

In my 30+ years of experience as a sci-fi/fantasy geek it's right at the top of the badly written ending ever scale.

 Could you point out 1-2 specific things that you liked the least?

 

By the Way: This question is not intend to discuss, or inquestion your experience. I just want to understand, "bad" does not give me a deeper understanding about what exactly you where sad/disapointed or angry at.

 

I want to write storys myselve so i am curious to learn something.

[aoibhealfae]

In my 30+ years of experience as a sci-fi/fantasy geek it's right at the top of the badly written ending ever scale.

mmm... even after BSG, Dune, Defiance, X-Files, Firefly, Fringe, Lost, The Hunger Games, Terminator: Sarah Connor Chronicles, Star Wars prequels, Harry Potter, Indiana Jones, Doctor Who, Torchwood, Prometheus, Matrix...? 

 

heck, I can't remember there was a definition of well-written endings in scifi and fantasy that doesn't end with some frickin deus ex machina, messy plotholes or overzealous "and they all lived happily ever after" and there's a reason why many scifi/fantasy franchises doesn't seem to end and continuously getting rebooted. 

[angol fear]

The prisoner has one of the most disappointing ending written (patrick Mc Goohan stayed hidden at home just after the ending), and it's actually the best television series ever made (and the ending is brillant but it breaks with the rules of "good" writing, it breaks with the tone of the series before the ending, the ending doesn't make sense etc..., quite strange!).

[fchopin]

The prisoner has one of the most disappointing ending written (patrick Mc Goohan stayed hidden at home just after the ending), and it's actually the best television series ever made (and the ending is brillant but it breaks with the rules of "good" writing, it breaks with the tone of the series before the ending, the ending doesn't make sense etc..., quite strange!).

 

Yee, loved the original Prisoner.

I remember watching it every week and trying to figure out what was happening.

[angol fear]

Yee, loved the original Prisoner.

I remember watching it every week and trying to figure out what was happening.

 

 

For instance, it's interesting to see that Patrick Mac Goohan didn't know who was the number 1 until he writes the last episode. People complain about Mass Effect 3's ending, but the same complaints can be done for the Prisoner's ending (I love both for the same reasons!).

[wright1978]

mmm... even after BSG, Dune, Defiance, X-Files, Firefly, Fringe, Lost, The Hunger Games, Terminator: Sarah Connor Chronicles, Star Wars prequels, Harry Potter, Indiana Jones, Doctor Who, Torchwood, Prometheus, Matrix...? 

 

heck, I can't remember there was a definition of well-written endings in scifi and fantasy that doesn't end with some frickin deus ex machina, messy plotholes or overzealous "and they all lived happily ever after" and there's a reason why many scifi/fantasy franchises doesn't seem to end and continuously getting rebooted. 

 

As for your list. I see examples of things that ended well, ended averagely or at the very least ended in keeping previous presentation in the ones i have seen.

Decently written sci-fi endings are perfectly possible, i feel for you if you claim to be a sci-fi fan i don't think they exist. Mass Effect 3's is rightfully castigated for being a complete and utter trainwreck, both before and after EC. Badly written, full of massive holes, including ones they created to try and excuse other holes, trying to parachute a comically poorly developed and presented deux ex machina character in at the end, failing to stay consistent with tone of series, that's before you even get into the RPG failings.

 

The reason things get rebooted is because film/tv execs are generally lazy/cautious.

[aoibhealfae]

and now Mass Effect get rebooted again. New protagonists. New story. New ship. New galaxy.
 

All of this has happened before and will happen again.. again.. again... again...

[RoboArigatou]

Personally, I kind of felt that the ending to Mass Effect 3 was the end of the game.

 

I know, it's a very unpopular opinion, but deep in my heart, I know, it's what I believe.

[Natureguy85]

So based on that Stephanie Meyer is a bad writer? I'm sure she'd take offense to you saying that.

 

If I was her and people were calling me a bad writer, why should I listen to them? I would ignore them.

 

Calling someone a bad writer isn't criticism, it's vitriol.

 

 

Hey Ithurael, video games are made by people. They aren't perfect, and are going to make mistakes. There is no such thing as a perfect product. Deal with it.

 

What you may perceive to be a plot hole the size of a moon crater (enough to break the script), might only be a few centimeters across. A very small error, and not a game breaking one, in other words.

 

On the first point, of course Meyer might take offense. Who cares? Saying someone is bad at what they do isn't vitriol. He didn't attack her personally or ask for her to be punched in the face. Don't hide behind this crap. It's a sign to those you're debating that even you've realized you have no leg to stand on.

 

On the second point, that's something in our favor. It was made by imperfect people and they screwed it up. What's your point? That we shouldn't talk about their mistakes because people make mistakes?

Your last sentence is true in general, but doesn't matter. Mass Effect 3 punched holes of the moon crater scale into the series plot. Even the small ones can add up to death by a thousand cuts. I notice you didn't apply this generality to any specific complain.

 

 

Here are other breakdowns that look at the many failings fo ME3s ending

MR BTounge: Tasteful Understated Nerdrage: ME3 Ending (Original Ending)

 

It's back up? Awesome.

 

 

But how can we consider that something is made by someone if we ignore that there is an intention ? Creation ex nihilo ?

 

Intention matters but the creation has to align with that intention. If I mean one thing, but say another, my intent really doesn't matter because what I actually say is what is communicated to the audience.

 

 

 Could you point out 1-2 specific things that you liked the least?

 

I want to write storys myselve so i am curious to learn something.

 

I'd refer you to the Mr.Btongue video posted above and also found in my signature, but the one foremost in my mind recently is this one.

 

Mass Effect 2 shifted the series towards being very character focused and driven. The best work of ME2 went into the character stories which happened around a terrible plot. The character focus really carried into the next game. So much of the series was about diversity, getting past old grudges (or not and the consequences of not doing so), and setting aside differences to fight a common enemy. Yet at the end, Shepard is isolated in a room with a new and unknown character and left to make a galaxy altering decision with little information and nobody to talk to. Look particularly at the first game. You had squadmates giving comments about the big decisions. Sure, they were just the game framing your options but it made it feel like a team. This all goes away at the end.

 

This is one example of how the ending really went against the themes that the story had been building until that point. Interestingly, and perhaps more useful for your own writing, this isn't as much a plot issue as it is about writing generally. There are many plot criticisms though.

[angol fear]

Intention matters but the creation has to align with that intention. If I mean one thing, but say another, my intent really doesn't matter because what I actually say is what is communicated to the audience.

 

Your second sentence is irrelevant because that's not what I'm asking at all. And your first sentence answers the question "does intention matter in the creation?".

You're not answering my questions, you're anticipating on where you think I'm going. So here you are imposing your interpretation of what you think is my intention, so you are stopping the discussion, you're being on the defensing so that I won't touch your logic. You jump from one thing to a conclusion that isn't really related. Shortcuts aren't the best way to analyze things.

What I wrote was just :

"But how can we consider that something is made by someone if we ignore that there is an intention ? Creation ex nihilo ?"

 

Let's see how our conversation works:

 

"But how can we consider that something is made by someone if we ignore that there is an intention ? Creation ex nihilo ?

-Intention matters but the creation has to align with that intention. If I mean one thing, but say another, my intent really doesn't matter because what I actually say is what is communicated to the audience."

 

If it's not obvious that you're not answering a question but you are defending your idea, then I don't know...

 

I'd refer you to the Mr.Btongue video posted above and also found in my signature, but the one foremost in my mind recently is this one.

 

Mass Effect 2 shifted the series towards being very character focused and driven. The best work of ME2 went into the character stories which happened around a terrible plot. The character focus really carried into the next game. So much of the series was about diversity, getting past old grudges (or not and the consequences of not doing so), and setting aside differences to fight a common enemy. Yet at the end, Shepard is isolated in a room with a new and unknown character and left to make a galaxy altering decision with little information and nobody to talk to. Look particularly at the first game. You had squadmates giving comments about the big decisions. Sure, they were just the game framing your options but it made it feel like a team. This all goes away at the end.

 

This is one example of how the ending really went against the themes that the story had been building until that point. Interestingly, and perhaps more useful for your own writing, this isn't as much a plot issue as it is about writing generally. There are many plot criticisms though.

 

Fascinating! To me, there is an entire game between Mass Effect 2 and the ending of Mass Effect 3. Shortcut again?

[Dantriges]

Fascinating! To me, there is an entire game between Mass Effect 2 and the ending of Mass Effect 3. Shortcut again?

 

Yep, you went from "The best work of ME 2" straight to "Yet at the end" and ignored a whole sentence.

[rossler]

On the first point, of course Meyer might take offense. Who cares? Saying someone is bad at what they do isn't vitriol. He didn't attack her personally or ask for her to be punched in the face. Don't hide behind this crap. It's a sign to those you're debating that even you've realized you have no leg to stand on.

You might not realize this, but calling anyone a bad writer is like calling someone names. It's verbal abuse. Not physical abuse like laying a hand on someone. If you can't criticize in a constructive manner, that is vitriol.

 

On the second point, that's something in our favor. It was made by imperfect people and they screwed it up. What's your point? That we shouldn't talk about their mistakes because people make mistakes?

If you have some constructive criticism to add, it only needs to be done once. Not in a repetitive manner, like some here have done. That's where it becomes unproductive.

 

Your last sentence is true in general, but doesn't matter. Mass Effect 3 punched holes of the moon crater scale into the series plot. Even the small ones can add up to death by a thousand cuts. I notice you didn't apply this generality to any specific complain.

 

Your last point. Pure hyperbole.

[Natureguy85]

Your second sentence is irrelevant because that's not what I'm asking at all. And your first sentence answers the question "does intention matter in the creation?".

You're not answering my questions, you're anticipating on where you think I'm going. So here you are imposing your interpretation of what you think is my intention, so you are stopping the discussion, you're being on the defensing so that I won't touch your logic. You jump from one thing to a conclusion that isn't really related. Shortcuts aren't the best way to analyze things.

What I wrote was just :

"But how can we consider that something is made by someone if we ignore that there is an intention ? Creation ex nihilo ?"

 

Let's see how our conversation works:

 

"But how can we consider that something is made by someone if we ignore that there is an intention ? Creation ex nihilo ?

-Intention matters but the creation has to align with that intention. If I mean one thing, but say another, my intent really doesn't matter because what I actually say is what is communicated to the audience."

 

If it's not obvious that you're not answering a question but you are defending your idea, then I don't know...

 

 

Fascinating! To me, there is an entire game between Mass Effect 2 and the ending of Mass Effect 3. Shortcut again?

 

You brought up the idea of creator intention. I made a comment about creator intention. What's the problem? My point was that we are not ignoring creator intention but it only takes us so far.

 

Yes, there is an entire game between ME2 and the end of ME3. That game retained the focus on characters. What is your point?

 

 

 

 

 

You might not realize this, but calling anyone a bad writer is like calling someone names. It's verbal abuse. Not physical abuse like laying a hand on someone. If you can't criticize in a constructive manner, that is vitriol.

 

If you have some constructive criticism to add, it only needs to be done once. Not in a repetitive manner, like some here have done. That's where it becomes unproductive.

 

 

Your last point. Pure hyperbole.

 

It's a judgement of their work after analysis of that work. It certainly isn't abuse. This is a pathetic attempt by you to deflect away from the topic at hand. The constructive criticism will be repeated until it gets through the thick skull of the recipient.

 

It's not hyperbole to use the terms you brought up. There are serious plot holes created by ME3 that reach back to the first game.

[voteDC]

mmm... even after BSG, Dune, Defiance, X-Files, Firefly, Fringe, Lost, The Hunger Games, Terminator: Sarah Connor Chronicles, Star Wars prequels, Harry Potter, Indiana Jones, Doctor Who, Torchwood, Prometheus, Matrix...? 

 

heck, I can't remember there was a definition of well-written endings in scifi and fantasy that doesn't end with some frickin deus ex machina, messy plotholes or overzealous "and they all lived happily ever after" and there's a reason why many scifi/fantasy franchises doesn't seem to end and continuously getting rebooted. 

I'm talking about the books of course but how was the ending to the Harry Potter series bad?

There wasn't even a Deus Ex Machina, as everything from wandlore to the spells that tied You Know Who and Harry together were established throughout the series.

As to the finale, sometimes people do live happily ever after. It would be a miserable world indeed if the hero had to die every time.

[Sheridan31]

 

Mass Effect 2 shifted the series towards being very character focused and driven. The best work of ME2 went into the character stories which happened around a terrible plot. The character focus really carried into the next game. So much of the series was about diversity, getting past old grudges (or not and the consequences of not doing so), and setting aside differences to fight a common enemy. Yet at the end, Shepard is isolated in a room with a new and unknown character and left to make a galaxy altering decision with little information and nobody to talk to. Look particularly at the first game. You had squadmates giving comments about the big decisions. 

Thx for clearifing it. I hear that you loved the kind of connection to the characters in ME2 and that you miss that on ME3?

 

Its also a point of mine. In addition to the isolation, i lost connection to the characters due to "auto dialoge" with only a few player interaction.

 

I am going to watch the video soon, Edit: Now i did. Seen that before. Now I want a new ending again