3428 odpowiedzi w tym temacie

[congokong]

I really enjoyed it too (post extended version). It made me teary which is a plus for good writing.

[angol fear]

The first of all, it created so many plotholes that only to fill them required conspiracy theory. If writers couldn´t come into the conclusion of how bad and ambiguous endings are(which happened, but lead writers kicked out outhers out of discussion).Then they were shocked when people required more and even created IT just to fit those plotholes and stuff.

 

I had an issue with this writing since the I first time managed to get to Mars archives and got to the whole Deus Ex concept, Crucible was never ever explained and that´s was so stupid. And I would even say that it´s implied by Vendetta the possibility of Crucible being just a tool to Catalist. 

Ironically the best ending was actually the one which came with Extended Cut, because they screwed up this whole trilogy so much that I was rather glad to see burn whole cycle.

 

Ambiguous ending were deliberatly wanted by Bioware. So They failed in the ending because they succeed to do what they wanted to do? You have to redefine your own criterias of quality.

The crucible was not explained because they did not want it. They wanted the player to be trapped in his own interpretations so that the ending twist could work. So once again they failed because they succeed?

 

 

Yes Shepard was tired but does that mean Shepard would just give in and accept the word of the enemy? I guess my Shepards and your own really are played quite differently.

 

I never talked about my Shepard. You quote Shepard facing Sovereign as if he could talk the same way in the catalyst scene. I just said that there were years and he changed. Take a look at the dream sequences in Mass Effect 3, you probably dislike it but Shepard changed and your Shepard changed too, it doesn't matter if you want it or not. In the end of Mass effect 3 Shepard can't talk the same way he did with Sovereign.

[rossler]

Yes Shepard was tired but does that mean Shepard would just give in and accept the word of the enemy? I guess my Shepards and your own really are played quite differently.

 

There is an explanation for this. The Reapers have the ability to coerce you to accept what they are saying as the truth. To turn you from a galaxy saving freedom fighter into a mindless Reaper puppet. It's called indoctrination, a form of Reaper mind control. That scene has it written all over it. In addition to earlier parts of the ending, but the indoctrination doesn't take full effect until you meet the Catalyst. Shooting the tube with your gun will sever the connection as well as kill the Reapers themselves.

[oddball_bg]

But it's not preservation. Nothing of the harvested species remains. Nothing of their culture is present, all that is there is Reaper. Genetic goop is not what those races were.

 

Far less for Shepard. After all for two years of the time Shepard was in a coma on a Cerberus station.

Yes Shepard was tired but does that mean Shepard would just give in and accept the word of the enemy? I guess my Shepards and your own really are played quite differently.

Which ties into what Oddball says above. Yes Shepard may be awed by the scale of things. Then they'd remember their crew, their friends, their lover, and think "I'm not going to stand for your nonsense." Standing on the side of the Citadel tower looking up at Sovereign didn't stop Shepard.

 

But it isn't deeply rooted into the societies of the Mass Effect universe. After seeing what it did to the Quarians the Council put a stop to it, with even research on it limited to the fringes of society.

So where is this big synthetic threat the Reapers have come to preserve us from? They are harvesting because it is time to do so, not because of the conflict between synthetics and organics.
 

 

Kind of.

There is a good line in a terrible movie (The Core) where one character says "I can't think about saving the world, it's too big. I'm doing this to save one person".

I wasn't there to save the Quarians, I was there because of Tali. I wasn't fighting side by side with the turians, I was there with my brother Garrus.

As I've said before I liked the ideas behind the shipped endings, just not their execution. Bioware in telling their grand ending, forgot the characters that made us want to get there. Which is why I find the Extended Cut so good, it added back the personal to the grand.

Then your Shepard and mine are totally different.But although I feel attached to the characters,it's the bigger picture that actually fascinates me.And the biggest character is the universe itself and the world they created.I also like the extended cut better but by a small margin,it's the same thing slightly,well...extended.

And why do you think" they'd remember their crew, their friends, their lover,"and say'What is this nonsense!?" is the way to go for every Shepard.That's such a cliche!Of course,everyone would do things to save their loved ones but under  these circumstances what is actually more important?Hell,on my first playthrough I had to shoot Mordin because I was absolutely certain I shouldn't let the genophage  be cured.

 

On the preservation question:

The very existence of organic life itself is preserved

 

On the synth question:

Are you trying to convince me synth life and AI isn't everywhere in this universe.Joker himself is DATING A FREAKIN' AI!

[oddball_bg]

There is an explanation for this. The Reapers have the ability to coerce you to accept what they are saying as the truth. To turn you from a galaxy saving freedom fighter into a mindless Reaper puppet. It's called indoctrination, a form of Reaper mind control. That scene has it written all over it. In addition to earlier parts of the ending, but the indoctrination doesn't take full effect until you meet the Catalyst. Shooting the tube with your gun will sever the connection as well as kill the Reapers themselves.

No,indoctrination is way too low caliber for such a trilogy to end.But I suppose the ending offers even that as an assumption which is the reason I think it's brilliant.Some people,maybe mostly kids,just cannot accept ambiguity as an ending.

[Applepie_Svk]

Ambiguous ending were deliberatly wanted by Bioware. So They failed in the ending because they succeed to do what they wanted to do? You have to redefine your own criterias of quality.

The crucible was not explained because they did not want it. 

 

 

Deus Ex card is simply easy way to get out of the virtual problem that they have created, instead of simply saying what it does or what it may do, they choose MAYBE as an excuse for whole plot of ME3. The funny thing is that if they are probably never going to adress it, to return back to Milky Way, just to avoid answering the end.

I wouldn´t say that they wanted to do it, after the ending fiasco there was even conflict in betwen the writers and lead about the ending, it was said that Mac and Casey locked themselves in the room and wrote that ending without discussion, so yeah no, I doubt that whole BioWare was up for this. Every single end to each of the sideplots were atleast good, but whole London and Cerberus parts were the points where Mass Effect3 has begun to crumble.

 

Not explaining Crucible was just stupid, that´s why everyone who mocks the Crucible uses words as a space magic.Not to mention Catalyst´s conversation and whole last 30 minutes that are more like an acid trip, rather than ending to trilogy. With a bit of logic you can come into the conclusion that something about Crucible doesn´t make sense, and It´s the whole love triangle Catalist - Vendetta - Crucible and when you´ll adds up Leviathans it gets actually even worse. 

 

Somehow, someone, managed to made a Crucible design at some point, which was supposed to shut down the Reapers. But it was told that the Reaper invasion started in each cycle by the arrival thru Citadel relay, so unless someone have found about Catalist sooner then invasion forces arrived, then there was no chance to create Crucible, unless there was someone else toying with cycle, either Catalist or Leviathans. The only way that we´ve found about Reapers was thanks to last Protheans that went from Ilos to disable the caretakers, which gave us few more years, while Sovereign was trying to get to Citadel. 

 

If BioWare didn´t want to explain Crucible or the ending concept, they wouldn´t tease players with - you´ll may find the answers in the future. They wouldn´t even do the extended cut and Leviathans, because if those two DLCs did something, then it was another attempt to apologize for the ending. If it was such a great idea, doing the end which is screaming as some sort of rip off of few others films and games, then they would rather think about something else, even Drew´s idea was better than Ya dawg I heard you like synthetics... 

 

 

They wanted the player to be trapped in his own interpretations so that the ending twist could work. So once again they failed because they succeed?

 

 

 

The only one who was left trapped at the end was BioWare and they did it on their own. Hell, I wouldn´t mind to have cliffhanger about Shepard´s survival at the end of the game, all I cared was conclusion to Reaper war, it was much easier simply to push a button and let the Reapers to die instead of some Architect type of conversation with the outcome of guess what the ending means. But as I said many times before, I do mind to have a silly shortcuts.

[rossler]

No,indoctrination is way too low caliber for such a trilogy to end.But I suppose the ending offers even that as an assumption which is the reason I think it's brilliant.Some people,maybe mostly kids,just cannot accept ambiguity as an ending.

I wouldn't consider the Reapers indoctrinating Shepard, and by extension, the player as a low caliber way to the end the trilogy. I think that's a brilliant way to end the story. Just imagine how many millions of people they managed to convert to their cause. I was not one of them though.

[Applepie_Svk]

There is an explanation for this. The Reapers have the ability to coerce you to accept what they are saying as the truth. To turn you from a galaxy saving freedom fighter into a mindless Reaper puppet. It's called indoctrination, a form of Reaper mind control. That scene has it written all over it. In addition to earlier parts of the ending, but the indoctrination doesn't take full effect until you meet the Catalyst. Shooting the tube with your gun will sever the connection as well as kill the Reapers themselves.

 

So you are basically saying that somehow Shepard become on with all of Reapers, as a Saren came one with the Sovereign, and Crucible was somehow the machine to amplify the ability to dissable the Reapers, as happened to Saren´s body and Sovereign at the end of ME1. Well that would be the one of the best interpretations so far, but then the question is that how exactly Shepard survived Harbinger´s beam, how the creators of Crucible managed to came with this idea, and where in the destruction ending he really end up, was it a Citadel or London. The other problem about IT that I have is that they never adressed if IT was true or not, while logic say that it´s the best explanation, their deeds saying otherwise. But then conspiration theories are there to fit into the puzzle, which is why I am sceptical about the possibility of IT being true.

 

Tl;DR: You are indoctrinated, and the true twist is that you´ll never know, because it´s f*cking indoctrination. It´s just sort of trolling that even Kojima would have problem to pull on his fans...

[oddball_bg]

I wouldn't consider the Reapers indoctrinating Shepard, and by extension, the player as a low caliber way to the end the trilogy. I think that's a brilliant way to end the story. Just imagine how many millions of people they managed to convert to their cause. I was not one of them though.

In my opinion the story and ending become too "domestic" this way.It's all in his head and he is battling it is too personal and doesn't say anything general to be an adequate conclusion.But that's my opinion.If you like it,it's perfectly fine,because,as I said,the ending offers even this assumption.

[oddball_bg]

They failed in the ending just because they failed in the writing, using Deus Ex card is simply easy way to get out of the virtual problem that they have created, instead of simply saying what it does or what it may do, they choose MAYBE as an excuse for whole plot of ME3. 

I wouldn´t say that they wanted to do it, after the ending fiasco there was even conflict in betwen the writers and lead about the ending, it was said that Mac and Casey locked themselves in the room and wrote that ending without discussion, so yeah no, I doubt that whole BioWare was up for this. Every single end to each of the sideplots were atleast good, but whole London and Cerberus parts were the points where Mass Effect3 has begun to crumble.

 

Not explaining Crucible was just stupid, that´s why everyone who mocks the Crucible uses words as a space magic.Not to mention Catalyst´s conversation and whole last 30 minutes that are more like an acid trip, rather than ending to trilogy. With a bit of logic you can come into the conclusion that something about Crucible doesn´t make sense, and It´s the whole love triangle Catalist - Vendetta - Crucible and when you´ll adds up Leviathans it gets actually even worse. 

 

Somehow, someone, managed to made a Crucible design at some point, which was supposed to shut down the Reapers. But it was told that the Reaper invasion started in each cycle by the arrival thru Citadel relay, so unless someone have found about Catalist sooner then invasion forces arrived, then there was no chance to create Crucible, unless there was someone else toying with cycle, either Catalist or Leviathans. The only way that we´ve found about Reapers was thanks to last Protheans that went from Ilos to disable the caretakers, which gave us few more years, while Sovereign was trying to get to Citadel. 

 

If BioWare didn´t want to explain Crucible or the ending concept, they wouldn´t tease players with - you´ll may find the answers in the future. They wouldn´t even do the extended cut and Leviathans, because if those two DLCs did something, then it was another attempt to apologize for the ending. If it was such a great idea, doing the end which is screaming as some sort of rip off of few others films and games, then they would rather think about something else, even Drew´s idea was better than Ya dawg I heard you like synthetics... 

 

 

 

The only one who was left trapped at the end was BioWare and they did it on their own. Hell, I wouldn´t mind to have cliffhanger about Shepard´s survival at the end of the game, all I cared was conclusion to Reaper war, it was much easier simply to push a button and let the Reapers to die instead of some Architect type of conversation with the outcome of guess what the ending means. But as I said many times before, I do mind to have a silly shortcuts.

Maybe you and I have different tastes and different ways to be satisfied.But let me tell you,sometimes you are eager to forgive some plotholes(I don't talk about ME3 exactly,I didn't find any plotholes)if the ending blows you away.Which was exactly what happened to me.It was smart,thought provoking and,dare I say,brave.I mean,"The 6th sense" has so many plotholes but we all loved it because the ending make up for them and blew us away.In my opinion this was the perfect way to end such an epic trilogy.Every other "candy"or"they lived happily ever after"ending would cheapen it(hope there is such a word) and will not tell you anything about anything.

 

Also,how is the ending NOT a conclusion of the reapers war?!

[rossler]

In my opinion the story and ending become too "domestic" this way.It's all in his head and he is battling it is too personal and doesn't say anything general to be an adequate conclusion.But that's my opinion.If you like it,it's perfectly fine,because,as I said,the ending offers even this assumption.

 

It's personal because it's the end of Shepard's journey. Whatever happened to the galaxy was initially unsaid.

 

Tl;DR: You are indoctrinated, and the true twist is that you´ll never know, because it´s f*cking indoctrination. It´s just sort of trolling that even Kojima would have problem to pull on his fans...

 

Well yeah. Indoctrination is subtle. If there was a reveal, it would be subtle too.

 

It's there, hanging around in the background.

[fraggle]

Not explaining Crucible was just stupid, that´s why everyone who mocks the Crucible uses words as a space magic.Not to mention Catalyst´s conversation and whole last 30 minutes that are more like an acid trip, rather than ending to trilogy. With a bit of logic you can come into the conclusion that something about Crucible doesn´t make sense, and It´s the whole love triangle Catalist - Vendetta - Crucible and when you´ll adds up Leviathans it gets actually even worse. 

 

Somehow, someone, managed to made a Crucible design at some point, which was supposed to shut down the Reapers. But it was told that the Reaper invasion started in each cycle by the arrival thru Citadel relay, so unless someone have found about Catalist sooner then invasion forces arrived, then there was no chance to create Crucible, unless there was someone else toying with cycle, either Catalist or Leviathans. The only way that we´ve found about Reapers was thanks to last Protheans that went from Ilos to disable the caretakers, which gave us few more years, while Sovereign was trying to get to Citadel.

 

I'd say not explaining the Crucible is in line with what you say about the previous Reaper invasions. The civilizations before always had the disadvantage that the Reapers struck them immediately, they never had a chance. And if no one can ever deploy the Crucible, or even complete it first, which was the case, how would they actually know what it does? They can only theorize about what happens, just as Hackett and his team do, they just don't know about the exact outcome.

Seeing how the Reapers were presented in ME1 already, it's not surprise a device like this pops up, the only thing I would've liked better about is if they already looked for a weapon of sorts in ME2.

 

About the indoctrination topic. To me this is off the table. Vendetta doesn't notice anyone in Shepard's team being indoctrinated on Cronos Station, which is happening a short time before London. From the game we know that indoctrination is not that rapid, so I doubt that Shepard is being indoctrinated afterwards.

In Karpyshyn's book Retribution they put Reaper nanoides into a guy and not even this is as fast as they would've expected (and they can only provoke a faster indoctrination speed by using red sand), and the guy can initially ignore the Reapers inside him, too. You'd think Shepard would mention something to his team if he/she felt funny like that.

[CronoDragoon]

Interesting that you played the original endings first. Anecdotally I've read many people say they like ME3's ending now that they have Leviathan and the EC for their first playthrough. I tend to think there wouldn't have been much of an uproar if they had been in the vanilla game.

[rossler]

You'd think Shepard would mention something to his team if he/she felt funny like that.

 

Shepard didn't see it coming. The Reapers were that subtle.

[Applepie_Svk]

The civilizations before always had the disadvantage that the Reapers struck them immediately, they never had a chance. And if no one can ever deploy the Crucible, or even complete it first, which was the case, how would they actually know what it does? 

 

That´s the problem, if you´re taking literal version for what it is, then Crucible was created to not just being some sort of battery, but to power up something aboard of Citadel, which brings lot of questions. If the Reapers were always successful in their surprise attack, then every cycle end up with disabled relays and no chance to not just deploy the crucible, but even to develop that thing.  The answer is that someone else had to mess with Crucible, to even bring a plan of it to cycle that has no knowlendge of Reapers or Catalist or Leviathans.

 

 

 

 

About the indoctrination topic. To me this is off the table. Vendetta doesn't notice anyone in Shepard's team being indoctrinated on Cronos Station, which is happening a short time before London. From the game we know that indoctrination is not that rapid, so I doubt that Shepard is being indoctrinated afterwards.

In Karpyshyn's book Retribution they put Reaper nanoides into a guy and not even this is as fast as they would've expected (and they can only provoke a faster indoctrination speed by using red sand), and the guy can initially ignore the Reapers inside him, too. 

 

Indoctrination is being missunderstood quite frequently, it´s not about that Shepard was already indoctrinated, but about the process of being indoctrinated, thus Vendetta has said that indoctrination is not detected, but not the process which is entirely different thing. If you connect the dots, Rachni - dreams and indoctrination, then you´ll end up with conclusion that Shepard is simply in the process, and at the end of game you are having a choice betwen the joining the Reapers or being free of their influence, or even able to refuse to do anything at all.

Shepard was for years walking around the Reaper technology and he didn´t have the vision, not till the Arrival and after the start of invasion, whatever TIM did installed himself with, it seems that it gave him power to control, to manipulate Shepard´s body and will, which is strongly tied to indoctrination.

 

 

 You'd think Shepard would mention something to his team if he/she felt funny like that.

 

 

Did he ever mentioned something about having very strange nightmares ? No, he never said anything, only something about guilt. Even things spoken in the nightmares are there to create a guilt, which may be the breaking point of process.

 

The thing is that destroy ending was most disregarded by Catalist, he came with this supposed conflict, even if you encounter AIs that is not so happy to kill organics, and your whole jorney changed in one second from killing a Reapers into stoping some endless cycle of AI vs Organics.

[rossler]

Your journey may have changed, but for me, I stayed the course and destroyed the Reapers for good. It was very satisfying.

[AlanC9]

Why should I not expect both? The false ending is a trope that has been used across all forms of media, including games. I'm not saying that should have been the only option but it should have been one of them

"There is a realm of existence so far beyond your own you cannot even imagine it. I am beyond your comprehension. I am Sovereign."

"You're just a machine, and machines can be broken!". Commander Shepard to Sovereign.

Shepard has already met a God and told it in no uncertain terms to...go away.

Quite true. Organic life as we know it is destroyed by picking synthesis.

Are you seriously telling me that you expected the reveal of a Reaper intelligence on the Citadel? And that the endgame would be about shutting down that intelligence which eould, I guess, magicslly kill all the Reapers?

At which point did you start expecting this?

[voteDC]

To be honest Oddball I can't explain myself any further, I've put across exactly what I feel and think. Thank you for the discussion.

Alan, you are intelligent enough to know what i meant. Here you just seem to be spoiling for an argument.

[AlanC9]

Your journey may have changed, but for me, I stayed the course and destroyed the Reapers for good. It was very satisfying.

Or you can seize Control of the Reapers just to make them do something constructive for a change, rather than because you think that organic-synthetic conflict is really a thing.

[AlanC9]

Alan, you are intelligent enough to know what i meant. Here you just seem to be spoiling for an argument.

Don't overestimate me. I genuinely have no idea what you're getting at.

[rossler]

Or you can seize Control of the Reapers just to make them do something constructive for a change, rather than because you think that organic-synthetic conflict is really a thing.

 

I don't think so

 

There is no conflict between organics and synthetics. That's something the Reapers made up to prevent you from destroying them. For some people, this little plan of theirs worked. They didn't destroy the Reapers, they chose control or synthesis.

 

They manage to coerce you willingly to accept their solutions. You were essentially being indoctrinated by the Reapers in the final moments when you meet the Catalyst. Everything afterwards until you wake up (incl. EC) is them telling you what they want you to think. Everything you see at the end is essentially the Reapers pulling the strings. And when you wake up, it's gone because you destroyed the Reapers and severed their mind control connection.

 

To put it another way, they lulled you to sleep. They made you trade your original mission of destroying the Reapers to accepting their solutions (control and synthesis aren't Shepard's ideas).

 

I know it's a lot to take in, but the ending to ME3 wasn't going to be a traditional ending by any means. There wasn't going to be some spoon-fed action showdown with all your war assets coming into play. There wasn't going to be a typical hero saves the day and rides off into the sunset with his love interest.

 

If the ending has holes and issues, it's because people are taking everything they see and hear at face value.

[AlanC9]

This is just you deluding yourself.

I suppose we can do a few rounds of "why IT is total nonsense" if anyone's up for it, though I'm not sure there's any point. But I'll ask my usual question: what do you guys figure the point of the cycles was? It's a lousy way to gather resources, whether that's organic paste or minerals and such, and it's unnecessarily dangerous for the Reapers themselves. What's the advantage over turning the galaxy into a big plantation?

For the record, my canon Shepard had no problem with Control. Her problem with TIM was that he wasn't actually, you know, doing it.

[ImaginaryMatter]

I suppose we can do a few rounds of "why IT is total nonsense" if anyone's up for it, though I'm not sure there's any point. But I'll ask my usual question: what do you guys figure the point of the cycles was? It's a lousy way to gather resources, whether that's organic paste or minerals and such, and it's unnecessarily dangerous for the Reapers themselves. What's the advantage over turning the galaxy into a big plantation?

I thought one of the benefits to IT was that the Reapers, then, wouldn't need an explanation. You wake up, the Reapers are defeated some other way, and all that remains is blessed mystery and the knowledge that you beat their insidious trap.

[rossler]

This is just you deluding yourself.

 

I'm not deluding anyone. I'm just telling you how I see the ending.

 

I thought one of the benefits to IT was that the Reapers, then, wouldn't need an explanation.

 

Every antagonist needs an explanation. Even with IT, the Reapers need Shepard for a reason. If you played ME1 or ME2, they tell you why the Reapers want him. What their end game is for Shepard, in addition to the rest of the galaxy. As much as I hate to say this, their motives haven't changed since ME1. Their motives didn't change in the ending of ME3 either.

[The Real Pearl #2]

True. It has been leaked and since then there was a huge discussion about the failure the ending is. I love the series, I loved all the games, including ME3. Replayed them all many times and again. But ME3 ending is so poorly made, written, coded, programmed, imagined and executed that we have actually to deal with this lame piece of gameplay, just as an example.

 

I loved doing that while waiting for the cinematic to end just so i can take a crack at marauder shields on insanity with the broken carnifex that is worse than the predator.