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Mass Effect 3's ending is absolutely brilliant!


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#1001
angol fear

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It would be great if you could actually specify, so we can talk about it and don't have to guess what you mean.

Other wise I'd guess you mean the actual physical 'melted-humans-goo' that was poured into the proto-reaper in ME2, when you say 'non-metaphysical essence'.
About religion; there is plenty of it in the trilogy, but nothing that constitutes a 'criticism' as I understand the process.

Ok no problem. The idea is very simple : Mass Effect is a materialist universe. We've got a lot of things that are religion related. But we also have details and many things that go against the idea that there is an after life etc... When Benezia dies she says something very interesting : "No light? They always said there would be a light...", you've got the fanatic in Mass Effect 1(http://masseffect.wi...esidium_Prophet), in Mass Effect 3 the whole Thessia mission is about "your gods are just Protheans" and you've got many other examples. So in this materialist universe, the metaphysic had no place, and, indeed, the essence isn't metaphysic. While essence is a metaphysical thing, here it's purely physical. So they redefined it to fit the universe they created and its meaning.


Criticism of religion, how original. Sci Fi is full with ascended beings, astronauts posing as gods, you have some of that even in the major franchises. It´s like putting elves into your fantasy setting/game.

I'll answer only this one. Where did I say that it was original? Once again you don't read, you read the way you want it to be, not the way it is written. Show me that I've said that it was an original idea. If you wanted original thing it means that you totally misunderstand the entire trilogy : from the beginning Mass Effect is mostly based on post modernist aesthetic! (oh my god it's related to art, I shouldn't have said that! Mass Effect has no artistic ambition, bioware never wanted it! I'm forcing the meaning!) It means that they never wanted to create an original theme in Mass Effect. And seriously if you care about how original are the things then explain us something original, show us some works that have been done lately which are original, with original ideas. I'm very curious, show us your knowledge!
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#1002
voteDC

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The Terminator. Kyle Reese said it.

Thank you. Someone got it.

For me that is what the Reapers should have remained. It's actually very much like the Borg in Star Trek, they were an awesome unstoppable enemy....and then they introduced the Queen and Voyager ruined them completely.

The Reapers were like that to start with but each game made them a bit more knowable, a bit more understandable, until we come to the controlling intelligence.

Edit: Don't get me started on the nonsense the book universe has made of the Borg.


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#1003
Dantriges

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I never expected original.



#1004
angol fear

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I never expected original.


So don't introduce things ("how original") that have never been said by anyone and that have never been intended by the authors.

#1005
Dantriges

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You read it too literally. Perhaps I expected less intentional misreading, ah forget that.

What was the point of this suddenly injected whole no metaphsysics in this materialistic universe then and please no "read Aristotle." That someone on the staff can write semi coherent?



#1006
rossler

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The Reapers were like that to start with but each game made them a bit more knowable, a bit more understandable, until we come to the controlling intelligence.

 

You didn't have the whole story in the first game. Each new game gave you more information. Third game comes along, and you get the whole story and Reaper background (with Leviathan).

 

I'd personally prefer an enemy who has a motive, other than we're too powerful, you can't even grasp the nature of our existence, etc, etc. Makes it more interesting.


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#1007
dorktainian

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Thank you. Someone got it.

For me that is what the Reapers should have remained. It's actually very much like the Borg in Star Trek, they were an awesome unstoppable enemy....and then they introduced the Queen and Voyager ruined them completely.

The Reapers were like that to start with but each game made them a bit more knowable, a bit more understandable, until we come to the controlling intelligence.

Edit: Don't get me started on the nonsense the book universe has made of the Borg.

 

I kinda liked the Vorlon / Shadow dynamic in B5.  You got to find out they were in effect stewards to the younger races , but the rest was left blank as you should not know too much as it spoils all the fun.  How they got to be where they were in the series is left to the imagination, as it should have been with the Reapers.



#1008
voteDC

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You didn't have the whole story in the first game. Each new game gave you more information. Third game comes along, and you get the whole story and Reaper background (with Leviathan).

 

I'd personally prefer an enemy who has a motive, other than we're too powerful, you can't even grasp the nature of our existence, etc, etc. Makes it more interesting.

I never said that the whole story was played out in the first game. I said each game made them more knowable. That's not the same thing.

Sometimes a bad guy needs a complex motive, sometimes it just needs to be a simple thing, and sometimes they are bad guys simply because they are bad guys.

The Reapers for me should have been the last one, they didn't need an explanation. You think differently and that's great, it would be a dull world after all if we all agreed on everything.



#1009
angol fear

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You read it too literally. Perhaps I expected less intentional misreading, ah forget that.

 

I don't think I took it too literally. You used sarcasm which is not well placed. Why was it not well placed? Because you justified the fact that you don't analyze things because they are not new, they are not worthy because not original. Let's use your comparison with elves in fantasy. Yes there are elves in fantasy, they are not put in every fantasy but yes we can find them quite easily. But is it a reason for no analysis? The religion them is here, and it's not used in every science-fiction piece. It's not because the theme is here that I will not have to analyze how it works. A real analysis is an analysis that tries to find out how it works. When you start saying with sarcasm "how original" you mean "let's not analyze it because it's not original" or when people start to say "they only did it because it's cool, but I have no idea why they did it", or when they use shortcut, it's the best way to misread things. That's why most people think that the youtubers they quote everytime are right. The problem is that some people think that the answers are on internet (if google don't give them answers, so it doesn't exist). Anyway, that's internet. So that's why I got irritated by your answer : it justified misreading (reading while ignoring things in the text ). I don't know if you did it intentionally or not, but that's what you did.

 

 

What was the point of this suddenly injected whole no metaphsysics in this materialistic universe then and please no "read Aristotle." That someone on the staff can write semi coherent?

 

Sarcasm again... As long as you will think that the writers didn't know what they were writing, you will not see the relation between the different element of the game. For instance, people complain about the ending because it's for them non-sense. actually it isn't. Mass Effect was written to impose retroactive reading. It explicitly started with Mass Effect 2 : the retcons. People avoid to analyze things because wikipedia said : "retcons are inconsistencies". The problem is why bioware did that. Mass Effect 2 is full of retcon, its writing is based on that. Mass Effect 3 followed the same path and the ending is a big retcon. So we can't condamn the ending alone it's the whole writing of the trilogy that should be condamned. Bioware's writers are not beginners, so why did they do that? That's something I've explained many times but that has been ignored many times. The retcons are related to perception/point of view. We don't know the whole thing, we discover, we understand little by little. The more we know the more it breaks our first idea. The whole thing with the geth is pretty obvious (basically from bad guys in Mass Effect1 to victims in Mass Effect 3). In Mass Effect 3 the videos whre you see the Illusive man explained the whole writing of Mass Effect 2 : the illusive man tried to manipulate Shepard (and the player was manipulated too : how many people said "hey Cerberus is different in Mass Effect 2 and 3, they changed!" But in Mass Effect 1 Cerberus was extremists. Cerberus didn't change it's our place, so how we can see them that changed. In the events and outside don't give the same perspective of events).

Anyway if we go back to essence, the word is used to something that isn't physical. You can't find the essence of someone by cuting him into pieces. So it is something that can't be taken like that. Anyway, in Mass Effect it's an abstraction that turned into a concrete thing. The essence is related to the body. It's no longer metaphysic. The metaphysical concept turned into a physical idea. It's quite hard to understand it if we're on the credibility level. It becomes worst if we talk about essence of species. So this can't be taken on the credibility level. We are here on the philosophical level. But no longer in a Plato perspective (who separated the visible and the invisible, our world and the world of ideas etc...), we are more in Nietzsche perspective where the body is really important, with no real metaphysic. So the synthesis option works the same way : it's related to a body, the synthesis creates a new type of DNA. Here some people think that it's transhumanism, so they think that the game didn't developed it well. The problem is that it's not about transhumanism. The catalyst talked about organics and synthetics, the problem actually more about otherness and perspectives/ representation/ point of view. Once again to understand it we have to be on a philosophical perspective of things. 

But we can also see earlier something : in the original ending, the catalyst didn't say that he was an A.I. Some people call him the godchild. That's very interesting because anyone who saw him the first time was thinking that he might be a higher being. And He is at the place of God. But we are in an universe where there is no god. And we usually consider god like a father, here it is a child.

The way we have to understand the essence think is the same we have to consider some element in the ending. So if the essence thing is not liked, it's impossible to like the ending. But there is a coherent line that has to be followed because it's how Bioware made their game.

Anyway, Mass Effect is written like a puzzle, things has to be put together to see how they work. When we separate things they are not interesting, and it's not Mass Effect.

 

PS : I opened many parenthesis that seem to be useless but actually the themes that are developed in Mass Effect are developed by other themes. The real work of reading here is to see their relation.

If you want to discuss about what I wrote, please do it point by point, one after another, not everything at the same time. To give a pile of things is never the best thing for a discussion and it goes nowhere because we separate what we shouldn't separate, we cut what should be related, and we can't see the logic.



#1010
rossler

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Sometimes a bad guy needs a complex motive, sometimes it just needs to be a simple thing, and sometimes they are bad guys simply because they are bad guys.

 

Well bad guys aren't bad guys, just because. They're bad, because they did something a good person wouldn't do. They had a sinister motive, while the good guy didn't.



#1011
voteDC

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Every hero doesn't need a tragedy, sometimes people do the right thing just because it is the right thing. By the same token sometimes bad guys just want to do bad things, they don't need more motivation than they want to do it.

Adding motivation beyond just being bad can backfire. Look at the Halloween series. Did Michael Myers need more motivation to kill his family and more, other than him being a madman. Or did he need to be the creation of a crazed cult of Druids.



#1012
Iakus

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Every hero doesn't need a tragedy, sometimes people do the right thing just because it is the right thing. By the same token sometimes bad guys just want to do bad things, they don't need more motivation than they want to do it.

Adding motivation beyond just being bad can backfire. Look at the Halloween series. Did Michael Myers need more motivation to kill his family and more, other than him being a madman. Or did he need to be the creation of a crazed cult of Druids.

While true, the really interesting villains do have a motive.  But that doesn't mean the motive has to be especially complex or deep.  I mean, the Reapers as malfunctioning machines, or somehow dependent on organics for reproduction might have done as motives, if it had been properly implemented.  

 

But no, the Reapers are supposed to be so far "above us" and all that garbage.  Their goal had to be much loftier and, dare I say, "artistic".  This was a case where no explanation might have been best, since they're operating on a mentality we simply can't understand.


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#1013
angol fear

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Sovereign justified the harvest with order and chaos, and there is no motivation behind it? Bioware never wanted it to be unexplained. Harbinger talked about salvation through destruction and there is no motivation behind that? And in Mass Effect 3 the reaper on Rannoch is the only conversation with a reaper in the third episode, and he should be talking with Shepard about events on Rannoch just for the fun?



#1014
CptFalconPunch

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While true, the really interesting villains do have a motive.  But that doesn't mean the motive has to be especially complex or deep.  I mean, the Reapers as malfunctioning machines, or somehow dependent on organics for reproduction might have done as motives, if it had been properly implemented.  

 

But no, the Reapers are supposed to be so far "above us" and all that garbage.  Their goal had to be much loftier and, dare I say, "artistic".  This was a case where no explanation might have been best, since they're operating on a mentality we simply can't understand.

 

Sovereign was an excitingly interesting villain, without ever finding out about his motives in ME1.

Saren was an interesting villain and he did have deep motives.

 

I'd say that out of all 3 games, sovereign is, by far the best villain. I don't know if someone somewhere proved objectively that villains with motives>villains without motives but if they have, I'd like to read/see it.


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#1015
Dantriges

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I don't think I took it too literally. You used sarcasm which is not well placed. Why was it not well placed? Because you justified the fact that you don't analyze things because they are not new, they are not worthy because not original.


Seems to me that my sarcasm was actually well placed. It wasn´t really aimed at the writing, my target was you. And it was well placed because I refused to engage in a debate, where someone drops a few sentences and then let you go stumbling in the dark of what he´actually talking about. But well, I meant, oh atheism in space, that´s quite played out combined with "so this is proof for the excellent writing how?" But ok, now there is more to work with.
 

Let's use your comparison with elves in fantasy. Yes there are elves in fantasy, they are not put in every fantasy but yes we can find them quite easily. But is it a reason for no analysis?

Actually no, many RPGs are thieving magpies cribbing things from previously published stuff. It´s not a bad thing as making up a whole species with its own brand new biology, customs, culture, religion and own kind of behavior is rather time consuming and you overlook something pretty easily. Using a "cliché" race allows you to fill the blanks quickly and concentrate on how your elves are different, if they are different. Sometimes it´s not important.
 

The religion theme is here, and it's not used in every science-fiction piece. It's not because the theme is here that I will not have to analyze how it works. A real analysis is an analysis that tries to find out how it works. When you start saying with sarcasm "how original" you mean "let's not analyze it because it's not original" or when people start to say "they only did it because it's cool, but I have no idea why they did it", or when they use shortcut, it's the best way to misread things.


Well if you started with an explanation why you think the religion theme is important for the ending, people wouldn´t go "huh what?" It´s rather easy to misread something when you only get child= cool ; the essence= cool ; etc. Don´t take it as a personal attack, just an explanation why quite a few people are rather dismissive, when you just drop a few sentences and there are enough people on the net who just troll.
 

That's why most people think that the youtubers they quote everytime are right. The problem is that some people think that the answers are on internet (if google don't give them answers, so it doesn't exist). Anyway, that's internet. So that's why I got irritated by your answer : it justified misreading (reading while ignoring things in the text ). I don't know if you did it intentionally or not, but that's what you did.


Rather annyoing that some random dudes on the internet invade on your turf with some pseudo literary explanations? ;)  
I don´t know if the Youtubers that get posted quite often are using every technical term right, so I take that with a grain of salt. I listened to their opinion to evaluate if I agree with it or not. I don´t think that most of the people here who post them think ME 3 is crap because Smudboy said so. Ok no idea how many people just were annoyed with Shepard´s death and looked for something else to blame the game. But it´s rather annyoing that a big and diverse group of people who share one particular opinion "this game is crap/not for me/dissatisfying" is put together in one big bag, gets a label slapped on "bunch of whiners because they can´t handle Shepard´s death" and be done with it. It´s like using dismissive sarcasm to avoid analyzing the text. :P 
It seems to me that quite a lot of people use the videos as a response because the opinion of the YTer is close enough to their own.

 

Sarcasm again... As long as you will think that the writers didn't know what they were writing, you will not see the relation between the different element of the game.

For instance, people complain about the ending because it's for them non-sense. actually it isn't.


Well just because you are a writer, doesn´t make you a good one.

I think I use this opportunity to put my own opinion and where I am coming from in here.

I wanted a game where the setting is believable enough, has enough internal consistency, allows you enough room how to do stuff and has an interesting story. You necessarily have to follow the story of course, but leaving enough room for a personal touch leaves the illusion of choice intact. You can´t choose freely, but as long as the choices make sense that´s ok. Starting with ME 2 the game changed tone and became a very different thing. In ME 3 it increasingly became something where I wasn´t really involved in anymore, with BW intruding into areas which were reserved for the player. it turned  into something that felt more like BW grabbed my mouse and keyboard and told me "Dude, your input isn´t wanted, because I have this awesome story to tell, now watch it." I got coffee after the first time instead. So maybe they had this awesome thing to tell, they lost me somewhere when I got to watch these crappy cutscenes.

I didn´t expect full participation, video games are limited but why are you intruding into the areas and fill it with some crappy pathos, awkward speeches and feels out of nowhere, sprinkled with some "Shep behaves like some mook in a B movie action flick."

At the end, they grabbed everything. On the credibility level (hope that´s right, I am as much of a native english as you are) Shep behaves like a moron, the whole Crucible thing was complete crap and nonsense, the antagonist/plot device makes no sense, the choices make no sense and the lore went down under a long time ago, together with a believable fictional world. Thanks Bioware, you made your high concept ending but you sacrificed everything that drew me into the game on the way. The Crucible felt very contrived, the Catalyst didn´t feel like it knew what it´s talking about, it´s logic was unchallenged because BW silenced me and why Shep was doing what he doing was a riddle.
 

Mass Effect was written to impose retroactive reading. It explicitly started with Mass Effect 2 : the retcons. People avoid to analyze things because wikipedia said : "retcons are inconsistencies". The problem is why bioware did that. Mass Effect 2 is full of retcon, its writing is based on that. Mass Effect 3 followed the same path and the ending is a big retcon. So we can't condamn the ending alone it's the whole writing of the trilogy that should be condamned.

Bioware's writers are not beginners, so why did they do that?

That's something I've explained many times but that has been ignored many times. The retcons are related to perception/point of view. We don't know the whole thing, we discover, we understand little by little. The more we know the more it breaks our first idea. The whole thing with the geth is pretty obvious (basically from bad guys in Mass Effect1 to victims in Mass Effect 3).


My my, I have to condense stuff because of forum limits.

They aren´t the first ones who bought into their own hype from the fans? ME 2 had ´s own big shares of problems and ME 3 was great but started with minor annoyances for me which became bigger over time.

The whole retcon are reveals Thing. Sorry but I now commit something that I don´t like myself. Being very vague and claiming expertise without evidence but ah well.
Been there done that, did it better, oh and screwed it up a little, too. Yep I know that storytelling for a small personal audience as a hobby is different than working within the constraints of professional writing. I claim "I don´t get paid for it" as a compensating factor.

Let´s get back from waving credentials without anything to prove it to something more substantial.
 

In Mass Effect 3 the videos where you see the Illusive man explained the whole writing of Mass Effect 2 : the illusive man tried to manipulate Shepard (and the player was manipulated too : how many people said "hey Cerberus is different in Mass Effect 2 and 3, they changed!"
But in Mass Effect 1 Cerberus was extremists. Cerberus didn't change it's our place, so how we can see them that changed. In the events and outside don't give the same perspective of events).


Manipulated by the dialogue wheel. ME 2 let you some room to disagree with their manipulation even when it was weak, ME 3 dropped even that. TIM played you like a fiddle but that´s more because they took your ability away to disagree. Maipulation is pretty easy when you control the whole world, including what the avatar is allowed to say and do. The only other choice is to uninstall. Cerberus in ME 3 was pretty different and more or less the same. They were the same in a "Cerberus is what we need them to be" way. and that they were human supremacist extremists. They were pretty different because BW wedged them in with a sledgehammer to make them what they needed. I would say that they even dropped the human supremacy angle in deeds, not in words.
 

Anyway if we go back to essence, the word is used to something that isn't physical. You can't find the essence of someone by cutting him into pieces. So it is something that can't be taken like that. Anyway, in Mass Effect it's an abstraction that turned into a concrete thing. The essence is related to the body. It's no longer metaphysic. The metaphysical concept turned into a physical idea. It's quite hard to understand it if we're on the credibility level. It becomes worst if we talk about essence of species. So this can't be taken on the credibility level. We are here on the philosophical level. But no longer in a Plato perspective (who separated the visible and the invisible, our world and the world of ideas etc...), we are more in Nietzsche perspective where the body is really important, with no real metaphysic. So the synthesis option works the same way : it's related to a body, the synthesis creates a new type of DNA. Here some people think that it's transhumanism, so they think that the game didn't developed it well. The problem is that it's not about transhumanism. The catalyst talked about organics and synthetics, the problem actually more about otherness and perspectives/ representation/ point of view. Once again to understand it we have to be on a philosophical perspective of things.

Do you see the problem here? Plato, Nietzsche, philosophical level, people going in the direction of transhumanism instead of otherness/perspective/representation etc. It might not be to everyone´s taste to be unsubtle, OTOH they marketed it to a mass audience. I don´t say, we need to dumb it down, just consider that a lot of people who played the game have different experiences, different education, interests and different point of views. So it might not be so elegant work with a more direct approach, but it might work a lot better and you don´t have to wonder why people couldn´t follow. Not because they are dumb, they just don´t have a mindlink into the writers brains.
 
Ok, if your interpretation is the one the writers intended, there is no god, it is a materialistic universe and we got a bad copy of a gnostic demiurge as the highest being and it´s just a matter of perspective, so now what? The big question is reject him, become him or agree with him? Was it only intended the final cornerstone in a series about perspective and different point of views?

Ugh, i really have a problem to formulate what I want to say here. pretty difficult in this medium and time delay. Ok, i see where you are going here and that´s nice. I just wonder why this wide arc and drag God or his nonexistence into the whole thing when it´s about perspective/different point of view, otherness and so on? the whole Reaper conflict didn´t felt like a philosophical struggle. the Reapers had their reasons and they had the bigger guns, no one argued, ok until the end when we got a lecture.
  

But we can also see earlier something : in the original ending, the catalyst didn't say that he was an A.I. Some people call him the godchild. That's very interesting because anyone who saw him the first time was thinking that he might be a higher being. And He is at the place of God. But we are in an universe where there is no god. And we usually consider god like a father, here it is a child.

So Shepard stormed heaven with a giant lollipop? :P Sry couldn´t resist.
Just watched, it´s pretty obvious that it´s a Reaper mouthpiece at least in the conversation.
Just to throw in some food for thought. Ever considered that you are seeing connections which aren´t there or weren´t intended?

Hm, there is obviously no god?
Let´s see If I can fake a believable christian fundie of the evangelical bent.*cough* *cough* *ahem*
Of course there is God, the aliens just haven´t accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior. The soulless Geth worship a false idol, because they were fallible mortal creations. Benezia doesn´t see the light because she never accepted Jesus in her heart and so she goes to hell (enter some other similar stuff for other denominations).
The Reaper War is the final reckoning, the Catalyst the antichrist who leads the people of the galaxy astray. The Shepard is the tool of our Lord to fulfill his will, it´s obvious. No one could have succeeded so spectatularly without the grace of God.
:P
Was there a point to this exercise, besides being funny?  Weren´t we talking about perspective/point of view? And ok, I am silly sometimes.
Anyways I put the whole religion angle more into world building and the Reaper worship as some kind of reaction of "people" coping with the presence of an overwhelming entity they don´t understand. So huh, religion and spirituality isn´t an organic exclusive thing, interesting touch. I had a certain feeling that the Benezia situation was some attempt to communicate it, OTOH I don´t consider near death experiences, which some people had, as proof that God exists, their absence is irrelevant. 
And well God´s nonexistence/aliens as gods in the setting was a nice piece of world building, but I didn´t put it into the central to the story category. Perhaps as a hint that there won´t be a higher being to bail us out. Actually pretty important but different from your interpretataion. I can see where you are coming from though.
 
I don´t intend to be mean but I throw it in the ring. Earlier you said that the retcons are a thing of perception/expanding the point of view. Isn´t the extended cut more or less the same thing? It sounds a bit like "I don´t like it so they gave in to the masses but the other stuff is ok because I like it."
 
Perhaps a bit word twisty, it just crossed my mind when I read it, so why not throw it into the debate? :)
 

The way we have to understand the essence think is the same we have to consider some element in the ending. So if the essence thing is not liked, it's impossible to like the ending. But there is a coherent line that has to be followed because it's how Bioware made their game.
Anyway, Mass Effect is written like a puzzle, things has to be put together to see how they work. When we separate things they are not interesting, and it's not Mass Effect.

 
If that was their intention, they hid the pieces too well. IMO they tried to go high concept and failed. To be blunt, the average writing in the games feels more like something out of an episode of Arrow or The Flash, I actually like the series but they are action flicks.
Is it written like a puzzle or do you want to see it as a puzzle? Other people puzzled IT out of it after all.


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#1016
Zaalbar

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I personally prefer the control ending.
As the supreme leader of the reapers I get to stomp those puny little humans into a fine pink paste and knock down their little houses.
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#1017
Biego

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I'd prefer to choose synthesis at the end .

#1018
ImaginaryMatter

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I have trouble believing that an ending that supposedly relies on so much subtext can completely fumble simpler things like character motivation and basic cause and event.


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#1019
Dantriges

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True. Sums it up quite nicely. But IIRC Angol´s argument is, that it´s a deliberate choice. I don´t think so but I am willing to explore it as long as the eplanation is more than a few lines. To be honest, it wouldn´t change my opinion much. I wanted something different which the earlier games delivered and was dropped later. There were enough and interesting big themes in the trilogy without going into the deep philosophical realm, metaphysics or rather the lack thereof.



#1020
rossler

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I don't recall any dialogue in the ending asking whether God exists, religion or anything spiritual.


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#1021
Natureguy85

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While true, the really interesting villains do have a motive.  But that doesn't mean the motive has to be especially complex or deep.  I mean, the Reapers as malfunctioning machines, or somehow dependent on organics for reproduction might have done as motives, if it had been properly implemented.  

 

But no, the Reapers are supposed to be so far "above us" and all that garbage.  Their goal had to be much loftier and, dare I say, "artistic".  This was a case where no explanation might have been best, since they're operating on a mentality we simply can't understand.

 

Not always. For example, most people love the Joker in The Dark Knight. He had complex schemes, but not any motivation beyond being an agent of chaos and destruction. I'll point to my guy Mr.Btongue:

 

"They don't need a complex motivation because the story is not about them."

 

 

Sovereign justified the harvest with order and chaos, and there is no motivation behind it? Bioware never wanted it to be unexplained. Harbinger talked about salvation through destruction and there is no motivation behind that? And in Mass Effect 3 the reaper on Rannoch is the only conversation with a reaper in the third episode, and he should be talking with Shepard about events on Rannoch just for the fun?

 

Sovereign had contempt for Organic life. Harbinger said they were saving Organic life through destruction. These two are not compatable.

 

 

Sovereign was an excitingly interesting villain, without ever finding out about his motives in ME1.

Saren was an interesting villain and he did have deep motives.

 

I'd say that out of all 3 games, sovereign is, by far the best villain. I don't know if someone somewhere proved objectively that villains with motives>villains without motives but if they have, I'd like to read/see it.

 

Saren didn't really have deep motives. What made him interesting is that he was merely an Indoctrinated puppet trying to keep his own mind.

 

 

 

Sarcasm again... As long as you will think that the writers didn't know what they were writing, you will not see the relation between the different element of the game. For instance, people complain about the ending because it's for them non-sense. actually it isn't. Mass Effect was written to impose retroactive reading. It explicitly started with Mass Effect 2 : the retcons. People avoid to analyze things because wikipedia said : "retcons are inconsistencies". The problem is why bioware did that. Mass Effect 2 is full of retcon, its writing is based on that. Mass Effect 3 followed the same path and the ending is a big retcon. So we can't condamn the ending alone it's the whole writing of the trilogy that should be condamned. Bioware's writers are not beginners, so why did they do that? That's something I've explained many times but that has been ignored many times. The retcons are related to perception/point of view. We don't know the whole thing, we discover, we understand little by little. The more we know the more it breaks our first idea. The whole thing with the geth is pretty obvious (basically from bad guys in Mass Effect1 to victims in Mass Effect 3). In Mass Effect 3 the videos whre you see the Illusive man explained the whole writing of Mass Effect 2 : the illusive man tried to manipulate Shepard (and the player was manipulated too : how many people said "hey Cerberus is different in Mass Effect 2 and 3, they changed!" But in Mass Effect 1 Cerberus was extremists. Cerberus didn't change it's our place, so how we can see them that changed. In the events and outside don't give the same perspective of events).

Anyway if we go back to essence, the word is used to something that isn't physical. You can't find the essence of someone by cuting him into pieces. So it is something that can't be taken like that. Anyway, in Mass Effect it's an abstraction that turned into a concrete thing. The essence is related to the body. It's no longer metaphysic. The metaphysical concept turned into a physical idea. It's quite hard to understand it if we're on the credibility level. It becomes worst if we talk about essence of species. So this can't be taken on the credibility level. We are here on the philosophical level. But no longer in a Plato perspective (who separated the visible and the invisible, our world and the world of ideas etc...), we are more in Nietzsche perspective where the body is really important, with no real metaphysic. So the synthesis option works the same way : it's related to a body, the synthesis creates a new type of DNA. Here some people think that it's transhumanism, so they think that the game didn't developed it well. The problem is that it's not about transhumanism. The catalyst talked about organics and synthetics, the problem actually more about otherness and perspectives/ representation/ point of view. Once again to understand it we have to be on a philosophical perspective of things. 

But we can also see earlier something : in the original ending, the catalyst didn't say that he was an A.I. Some people call him the godchild. That's very interesting because anyone who saw him the first time was thinking that he might be a higher being. And He is at the place of God. But we are in an universe where there is no god. And we usually consider god like a father, here it is a child.

The way we have to understand the essence think is the same we have to consider some element in the ending. So if the essence thing is not liked, it's impossible to like the ending. But there is a coherent line that has to be followed because it's how Bioware made their game.

Anyway, Mass Effect is written like a puzzle, things has to be put together to see how they work. When we separate things they are not interesting, and it's not Mass Effect.

 

PS : I opened many parenthesis that seem to be useless but actually the themes that are developed in Mass Effect are developed by other themes. The real work of reading here is to see their relation.

If you want to discuss about what I wrote, please do it point by point, one after another, not everything at the same time. To give a pile of things is never the best thing for a discussion and it goes nowhere because we separate what we shouldn't separate, we cut what should be related, and we can't see the logic.

 

The end is funny. "Don't reply to my wall of text all at once."

 

It's not that the writers didn't know what they were writing, it's that it wasn't good.

 

You're right that the ending isn't the only thing to condemn. The plot has been poor since the beginning of ME2.

 

Retcons aren't really based on point of view, though their impact or worth can be. For example, Vader being Luke's father was a retcon in Empire Strikes Back, but it was used to make the character story more interesting. For Mass Effect, they retconned the Quarians to be in their suits all the time to make it a bigger deal for Tali to remove her mask for Shepard during their romance (and to not have to animate suitless Quarians on the Rayya). They seem to have retconned the Genophage to allow Mordin his moral argument. These both worked out well in the service of drama and didn't really cause any damage, like them or not.

 

Cerberus most certainly did change but the shift between 1 and 2 isn't nearly as big as the shift between 2 and 3. The problem isn't that they seem different; it's that we can't see how they go from one to the other because the difference is too big.

 

On Essence, are you saying that Essence is the goop itself, not something taken from the goop? You could be right but the narrative isn't clear. Also, this isn't necessarily a universe where there is no God. Some characters mention religious beliefs but the game doesn't take a stance on them other than for the Asari and that only in ME3.


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#1022
angol fear

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I don't recall any dialogue in the ending asking whether God exists, religion or anything spiritual.

 

No there isn't. There is just a presentation of the catalyst which is here to give a higher level perception. The catalyst is a higher being. The distance with the events, the "music", the elevator everything is made to have that feeling. But "godchild" and "space jesus" show how people got trapped in their own representation. Mass Effect has always been structured with Bible elements (the first mission is Eden Prime!) and other religions. The synthesis is an action that requires "faith" (that's how the developers wanted that choice to be). But when people take it literally, it means that they didn't get what Mass Effect position was about religion. they missed that theme (they didn't get how it was used in the game) so they can't get why the presentation of the ending is like that. In the end, we don't have anything like "god exists, religion or anything spiritual" but we have people talking about "godchild" and "space jesus" and that's very interesting because we see how they are trapped in their own representation, they don't really read.

It's like reading Also sprach Zarathustra. If you don't get that Nietzsche uses a writing close to the Bible but in order to destroy the christiasm, you totally fail at understanding what he said. Mass Effect has developed the religion theme (there is a message about what is religion, and it's in Mass Effect 1) and the ending uses some kind of religion structures : the Normandy crashes on a planet that is a new Eden. It doesn't mean that it's Eden, but here there a circle of reference (from Eden Prime to new Eden). They seem to be details but they are the structure, the form of the writing. I have already said it but the whole writing is based on retroactive reading, the ending doesn't give the whole explanation, it only gives the most important clues to understand what was here before the ending. The ending reveals if we understood what we were playing, if we got what was written, or if we were just playing it like a Call of Duty. So there is no mysticism, there is only a trap where people, who didn't get how the theme was developed, have felled.

People got too used to television series writing which is actually terrible, based on the same structures (the story doesn't matter really much it will always be the same structure with a the less possible implicit, the more it is explicit the best it is. The less we think, the best it is. Now, computers can write television series, so what should we learn about that?)



#1023
Natureguy85

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No there isn't. There is just a presentation of the catalyst which is here to give a higher level perception. The catalyst is a higher being. The distance with the events, the "music", the elevator everything is made to have that feeling. But "godchild" and "space jesus" show how people got trapped in their own representation. Mass Effect has always been structured with Bible elements (the first mission is Eden Prime!) and other religions. The synthesis is an action that requires "faith" (that's how the developers wanted that choice to be). But when people take it literally, it means that they didn't get what Mass Effect position was about religion. they missed that theme (they didn't get how it was used in the game) so they can't get why the presentation of the ending is like that. In the end, we don't have anything like "god exists, religion or anything spiritual" but we have people talking about "godchild" and "space jesus" and that's very interesting because we see how they are trapped in their own representation, they don't really read.

It's like reading Also sprach Zarathustra. If you don't get that Nietzsche uses a writing close to the Bible but in order to destroy the christiasm, you totally fail at understanding what he said. Mass Effect has developed the religion theme (there is a message about what is religion, and it's in Mass Effect 1) and the ending uses some kind of religion structures : the Normandy crashes on a planet that is a new Eden. It doesn't mean that it's Eden, but here there a circle of reference (from Eden Prime to new Eden). They seem to be details but they are the structure, the form of the writing. I have already said it but the whole writing is based on retroactive reading, the ending doesn't give the whole explanation, it only gives the most important clues to understand what was here before the ending. The ending reveals if we understood what we were playing, if we got what was written, or if we were just playing it like a Call of Duty.

People got too used to television series writing which is actually terrible, based on the same structures (the story doesn't matter really much it will always be the same structure with a the less possible implicit, the more it is explicit the best it is. The less we think, the best it is. Now, computers can write television series, so what should we learn about that?)

 

The Catalyst really isn't a higher being though, despite it's presentation as such. That could have been an interesting thing for the ending to focus on actually. Despite it's insistence that it is more than an AI, saying that it is an AI in the same way that Shepard is an animal, it is actually more like a VI in how limited it is in its thinking and how bound it is to the goal given to it by the Leviathans.

 

You're definitely right that religious imagery was used. As a minor note, "Space Jesus" refers to Shepard, not the Catalyst. However, I think that the imagery is more to draw that mental connection to the characters rather than an attempt to make a statement about religion in the real world.


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#1024
rossler

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I didn't even think about that stuff. When the last part came, I was thinking about destroying the Reapers and finishing the game.


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#1025
angol fear

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I know that "god child" was for the AI and "space jesus" for shepard. I only put those two words because they show how people connect the ending to a religious thing.