3598 réponses à ce sujet

[Dantriges]

Switching from squishy brain to cyber brain would probably alter future thought processes, also you are now in some kind of mind cloud instead of being in a meat bag.

 

The Catalyst probably thinks having the minds on file is enough.

[MrFob]

Even if individuals were preserved in reaper form (and I am not sure how Legion would have gotten this information), the fact remains that the reapers are very apparently forced to do whatever the catalyst wants. He controls them. Also, all reapers act in unison. Soehow the upload process - if it exists - seems to negate a lot of discourse, a lot of free will because unless you have the most cynical impression of the human race that I have ever heard of, one should predict that a human reaper, made up of humans that just got harvested and who's minds are preserved would actually oppose the harvest. And the same should go for at least some other species. The Leviathans are unhappy about the cycles and are willing to fight against it after a 5 minute discussion with Shepard but Harbinger (the Leviathan reaper) is it's foremost agent. Once in reaper form these civilizations have to serve the catalyst. The same goes for husks, Brutes, Cannibals and Marauders.

 

So are they like the Borg collective where the mind is preserved but free will is eliminated? IMO that would be a fate truly worse than death. "It may be known" that the reapers preserve the minds of ascended harvested species but I see absolutely no evidence that these minds are capable of anything but watching their reaper form commit atrocities.

 

Note: I can easily believe that by the time of ME1/2 it was the plan of the writers to make the reapers into very complex beings like this but ME3 most certainly throws a monkey wrench into that plan.

 

So if we are preserved, than the story makes no sense. If we are not preserved, than the reapers are ending our existence, effectively killing us.

[oddball_bg]

(1) Because many people think the assertion that synthetics will always kill organics is implausible given the story that came before, and actually, it isn't all that important because you can choose to ignore it. You make a choice about the future, whether or not your reason to do so has anything to do with the Catalyst's assertions.

 

(2) Because the Reapers don't act like saviours. In fact, *everything* about them screams "evil abomination" into your ears, and nothing "I'm sorry, but this must happen for the sake of organic life". 

 

Which means that yes, you can find a rational rationale under all the BS (as I explained in my Synthesis thread), but it takes some mental acrobatics to get there (unless you're willing to take the antagonist's word for it, but who does that?). As I said elsewhere, the *idea* of the ending scenario is fine, but the execution is horrible.

 

I also recommend, as a counterpoint with a little more weight, to read this review of ME3, especially the part about the ending. It's pre-EC, but most of the criticism still holds. Especially the part about "under-thought and over-pretentious dialogue" resonates with me - a qualification of what I called simply "bullsh*t".

 

As I see it, ME3's ending could've been brilliant in the hands of a competent SF writer, but as it is, it's a steaming mess of BS written by people who know nothing of their subject matter and think they can substitute cheap drama and popular misconceptions for their ignorance. The best you can say about it is that the themes they attempted to address with it are still visible, and thus they can be discussed without having to accept the BS. The EC mitigates that impression somewhat, but since it doesn't eliminate the BS, the change isn't significant enough to change my final verdict.

Wow,you ripe with self esteem!Maybe you should write a better ending!

[Iakus]

Why everyone negates the fact that the reapers are actually trying to SAVE us from self destruction?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

...by destroying us

[oddball_bg]

Yes, but that's exactly my point. We, as organics feel that way. But put yourself in the shoes of the Reapers (if you can do that, I know many are reluctant to do so) and you get a whole different view on the "killing" process. To them it's a different process than we would describe it, and that, for me at least, is one of the main points that is also mentioned in the game. Organics don't understand the Reapers, they don't understand why they harvest people. To organics, it's just simple killing, but from the Reapers' POV it's something completely different, something positive, something that organics would never ever wish to be because organics perceive it as negative. Organics don't want to be preserved, they don't want to become immortal by being dissolved and pumped through tubes, and certainly not being killed off just because some big machine talks about ascending them.

Just look at this thread. No one here says the Reapers are right in what they do. I don't either. But looking at the whole thing from the Reapers' side, I can understand that for them, what they do is preserving us.

I guess what I want to say is that there's a neutral approach, too, in which we could at least try to understand the Reapers' motivation. Most here take sides, and that's fine, I can understand hating the Reapers and what they do.

To me though they're interesting because I like to see what makes them tick and why they believe what they do to organics is good in their books. But maybe I'm just weird.

Exactly,very well said!Nothing in the world is black or white.And nothing is just one sided.I guess most on this thread are kids or teenagers that haven't seen the real life.They don't know that the further in life you go the more confusing everything becomes(at least from my point of view).Seriously,when I was a teenager I was absolutely certain about everything,now I am 32 and everything I thought I perfectly knew about life is just slipping through my hands.I like the ending in this sense as well,because it showed life as complicated and uncertain and surprising as it is.

[oddball_bg]

They don'

 

...by destroying us

They don't destroy ALL of us.Just the ones that are ahead in technology and are threat to organic life in general.In the previous circle they spared Earth and humans.I like the idea that the only solution for our preservation is so desperate and hard to grasp and accept.

[Iakus]

By "ascending" a species they didn´t preserve it. They destroyed their homes, their art, their culture, their lifestyle, their very bodies, their own ability to shape their future for good or ill and forced them together in one new body. By doing that they reduced them to an unrecognizable minimum. And that´s the generous interpretation. Our surroundings, our social interactions, our very bodies shape what and who we are. The Reapers took that away from the species they ascended without them having any say in the matter, they didn´t preserve much they just put them into a coma at best. it´s like saying an embalmed corpse is the same person as when the guy was alive, just that the Reapers preserved a bit of the mind and blew up the corpses.

"You.  Whatever you were before the Reapers decided to "preserve" you.  They're dead.  They died thousands of years ago.  And now they can rest in peace"

[Dantriges]

Seems I entered senility then as I am older than you and still consider throwing me into a mixer not as some kind of valid rescue operation.

[Iakus]

They don'

 

They don't destroy ALL of us.Just the ones that are ahead in technology and are threat to organic life in general.In the previous circle they spared Earth and humans.I like the idea that the only solution for our preservation is so desperate and hard to grasp and accept.

You don't save humanity by wiping out humanity.

[oddball_bg]

You don't save humanity by wiping out humanity.

Who told you they are saving humanity,huh?They are saving organic life.To them organic life is the same wheter it's turians humans,batarians etc.

[themikefest]

 I am 32

32 years ago I was in the military.

[oddball_bg]

32 years ago I was in the military.

Really?Or it's some kind of a joke?

[themikefest]

Really?Or it's some kind of a joke?

Why would I joke? And yes really.

[Natureguy85]

It's a philosophical question: if your mind, your emotions and thought processes etc are uploaded into AI hardware to run, is that you in any meaningful way?

 

That question is the one posed through President Huerta, as discussed in the hospital argument in ME3. It's touched on by Shepard wondering if he/she is just a "high tech VI that thinks it's Commander Shepard."

 

http://masseffect.wi...#03.2F11.2F2010

 

http://masseffect.wi...#03.2F12.2F2010

 

But that's assuming the mind is an exact copy and is just like the person was beforehand. I'm questioning if that's the case for the uploaded minds or if they are Indoctrinated or otherwise altered, no longer being like the person from whom they were uploaded.

 

 

 

 
I disagree. If the minds of the constituents still exist in any meaningful way, then their memories also survive and you could theoretically bring the civilization back to life. That's the only way the Catalyst's claim about preservation makes any sense at all. Were it not so, the Catalyst would simply be lying. I grant you, thinking about the details and side effects of this idea of preservation makes your head spin, but at the core it's not an impossible idea.

 

That would just be like Zod wanting to rebuild Krypton on Earth in Man of Steel. All those people who died on Krypton are still dead. Still, is there any indication the Reapers have that purpose or would do that?

[oddball_bg]

Why would I joke? And yes really.

So now you are in your 50's?

[themikefest]

So now you are in your 50's?

yes

[oddball_bg]

yes

So do you play games regularly or just Mass Effect?

[Monica21]

Exactly,very well said!Nothing in the world is black or white.And nothing is just one sided.I guess most on this thread are kids or teenagers that haven't seen the real life.They don't know that the further in life you go the more confusing everything becomes(at least from my point of view).Seriously,when I was a teenager I was absolutely certain about everything,now I am 32 and everything I thought I perfectly knew about life is just slipping through my hands.I like the ending in this sense as well,because it showed life as complicated and uncertain and surprising as it is.

Many, many things in this world are black and white. Many things are gray. Many things really are one-sided, like whether or not the Reapers kill people. Asserting anything else, regardless of what the Reapers' motives are, is wrong. Whether or not the Reapers kill is not, "Well, you have your opinion and I have mine." You have a right to believe something but you don't have a right to claim that you're right when you aren't.

[Monica21]

So do you play games regularly or just Mass Effect?

Aww... oddball has a crush.

[themikefest]

So do you play games regularly or just Mass Effect?

Look at my profile if you want answers

[oddball_bg]

Many, many things in this world are black and white. Many things are gray. Many things really are one-sided, like whether or not the Reapers kill people. Asserting anything else, regardless of what the Reapers' motives are, is wrong. Whether or not the Reapers kill is not, "Well, you have your opinion and I have mine." You have a right to believe something but you don't have a right to claim that you're right when you aren't.

Yes many things are one sided as is your opinion.Have I,in any of my posts,said that what reapers do is right?I never said that.Also I never said it's wrong either,because the solution to the problem is not straightforward.Ok,imagine that what the reapers tell you is true and organics are really bound to destroy themselves if the reapers don't constantly restart their existence.What would you do?Of course killing is wrong,of course,but what if you know this is the only solution for the organics to ever exist.So,what would you do?Life is full of those nor black nor white decisions you have to take,well,on a different scale of course.And if you haven't experienced any of them I truly envy you!

[Natureguy85]

Oh,the catharsis guy!How are you pal?!You are a very special boy,you know that?

 

I'm good, guy-who-makes-up-definitions-to-words-then-criticizes-others-for-not-using-them.

[oddball_bg]

I'm good, guy-who-makes-up-definitions-to-words-then-criticizes-others-for-not-using-them.

Did you manage to experience a catharsis or you still rely on what you've read or what you are told?

[Monica21]

Yes many things are one sided as is your opinion.Have I,in any of my posts,said that what reapers do is right?I never said that.Also I never said it's wrong either,because the solution to the problem is not straightforward.Ok,imagine that what the reapers tell you is true and organics are really bound to destroy themselves if the reapers don't constantly restart their existence.What would you do?Of course killing is wrong,of course,but what if you know this is the only solution for the organics to ever exist.So,what would you do?Life is full of those nor black nor white decisions you have to take,well,on a different scale of course.And if you haven't experienced any of them I truly envy you!

You know what's not up for debate? Using spaces after punctuation. That said, is this a serious question? What would I do if a race of sentient machines came along and said I had to die for the good of future organic races, who would then also have to die for the race of organics that comes after them, and so on, and so on? I'd do what I do with all my Shepards. I destroy them.

[Ieldra]

Wow,you ripe with self esteem!Maybe you should write a better ending!

Has been done.