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Mass Effect 3's ending is absolutely brilliant!


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#1301
Natureguy85

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The sight of a Reaper Harvester in flight nearby is one of the first indications that a Reaper invasion is underway. Their massive wingspan allows them to quickly cover the distance between them and their prey.

In the Harvester's mouth are two heavy guns that fire in an alternating pattern. The Harvester's most fearsome quality, however, is that its appearance guarantees that Reaper ground troops are not far behind.

 

http://masseffect.wi...rvester_(enemy)

 

Abilities Spawn Husks
Post-Mortem Explosion

 

Even without their indoctrinating influence, Reapers are immensely powerful warships and their technology is devastating. One armament common with the various subtypes is a powerful "magnetohydrodynamic" weapon which ejects a stream of molten metal at a fraction of the speed of light, capable of tearing through a cruiser in a single sustained burst. The gigantic spinal-mounted gun of capital-class Reapers is able to rip through the hulls of even the largest of dreadnought-class ships with ease, effortlessly penetrating their kinetic shields. Reaper defences include powerful shields that could block the projectiles of an entire fleet, along with an incredibly strong hull.

Though they are sentient machines, the Reapers have habitable interiors that can transport a crew, either to help spread their indoctrinated slaves or to allow these slaves to tend to them, probably both. Speculation in the Codex suggests that each individual Reaper has a massive element zero core which, coupled with the likely enormous quantities of energies at its disposal, allows it to generate the staggering mass effect field needed to land ships of their size on a planet.

 

 

http://masseffect.wi...com/wiki/Reaper

 

Abilities: High powered weapons, computer accuracy, near invincibility, troop transport, Indoctrination, and fear factor.



#1302
Ieldra

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Damn it. I hate writing long posts only to see them end up as the last one on a page...
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#1303
MrFob

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leidra,I snipped the first part of your post, only to save space, you are yet again making some excellent points. I don't deny that I am looking at this from a human perspective (at least when talking about value). However, there is no indication that I can see that things would change if I would see it from the perspective of the catalyst. Ultimately, when we loose the value argument, which I agree is philosophical although it seems to still apply to the catalyst who does apparently also attribute value to life, it boils down to a simple question:

 

Can life exist without evolution?

 

My hypothesis is "No".
If we look at life without taking individuals into account, than it follows that we also can't take individual species into account. So just because the Nautius remained - as a species - rather stagnant for 500 million years doesn't tell you anything about life as a whole.

 

Oh, btw, just as a side note, even species that reproduce via mitosis evolve through mutation, They even have evolved their own mechanisms, like plasmid exchange to facilitate that process. If they wouldn't, meiosis and sexual reproduction would never have existed.

 

Anyway, since we have only one "life system" without any independent comparison to look at on earth, we can't really make a definite statement about the whole of life everywhere in the real world. If my hypothesis were true, we probably never will be able to do that even if we find other independent forms of life. As always in science, we can only go by the available evidence and our current n of 1, while not telling us much of course supports my hypothesis. Furthermore, what would life without evolution look like? (Maybe we should ask the synthesis people since they are "the pinnacle of evolution" and it would follow that they don't evolve or develop anymore. ;)).

 

However, in Mass Effect, the reapers especially have a rather large n number and we get access to that information at the end. All the "life systems" (unfortunately I really can't think of a better word) that the reapers encountered were very similar to ours.
So I think the indications - at least in the ME universe (and I believe also in ours but that's just me) - are that my point from above stands. But more on the reapers below.
 
BTW (and this is a slightly different point), there may be an inherent problem with talking about life without taking the individual into account. The catalyst doesn't care but I wonder if that isn't a flaw in itself. Life as a system requires the co-operation of many individual elements (be that individual cells within an organism, individual bacteria in a colony or individual people in a population).

Consider that in Neuroscience at the moment for example we have a pretty good understanding of top-down processes (i.e. how the brain as a whole initiates behavior and reacts to stimuli, which parts are active during certain tasks, etc.). It's by no means complete but there is a lot of information out there. We also have a lot of information about the behavior of individual nerve cells, how they integrate information and create output, down to the point where we can simulate a lot of these single cells with great accuracy (again, not 100% but pretty good).
One of the big problems is to bring those two scales together and to understand how the interaction of millions of neurons and billions of connections creates the whole. Until we do that, we can only approximate and speculate about the exact workings of the brain but we cannot make accurate descriptions or predictions, let alone a simulation.
I think we may be encountering the very same inherent problem when talking about life. I have very crudely tried to allude to that issue in the post previous to my last one, when I was talking about the problems of maintaining stagnation internally in the face of individual concerns and goals. It's a problem I see there but you are right, I can't claim that I have a definitive answer to the question I posed above any more than you do.
 

 

I didn't imply that you were a proponent of irresponsible progress. I implied - and I've made that explicit enough in this post I hope - that you were illegitimately extending a specific human viewpoint to all life.

I know, my defense in that regard was more in response to reorte, not you.
 

As far as the Reapers are concerned, I read the Catalyst's purpose as: "we want [intelligent orgnic] life to survive until the problem is resolved in a more permanent way". The Catalyst stops as soon as two conditions are fulfilled:

(1) It recognizes that it's an intrinsic aspect of organic intelligent life that it will never be content with a cyclic existence. Yet again, we can't make that claim a priori, but the Catalyst is implied to have the data of billions of years, which means *it* may have a legitimate way to make such a claim from evidence.
 
(2) It recognizes that its experiments (the cycle is an experiment in order to see if intelligent life can come up with a solution on its own) will likely never result in a solution of the problem before the civilizations destroy themselves.
 
At that point, the cycle becomes pointless, because if (1) is true, then the cycle means denying the civilizations their purpose and they might as well be dead, and if (2) is true, then there is no prospect that doing that to some will result in a better future for others.

Don't those 2 points mean that he would realize that the cycles cannot make sense exactly because of previously offered definition of life (which was my argument all along)? And if he did realize that, why do we need the choices, why wouldn't the reapers just stop unconditionally?

 

Also, there is no indication that the reapers get to this realization on their own. The cycle is only broken because "the crucible changed me" (me = the catalyst/reapers) and those options are offered for whatever reason that is not explained at all.

 

But let's assume for the sake of argument that the crucible is somehow the solution that they were looking for and therefore they can now end the cycles (which really doesn't make sense but ok).

If that were the case and if the reapers were really interested in seeing if the organics can find another solution, than they shouldn't have opposed the crucible, they should have welcomed it. However, the catalyst states outright that they try to eradicate the entire idea and they do try to destroy it even while the catalyst offers the choices.

 

As far as I can see, there is no indication that the reapers ever want to end the cycle or that they conduct some sort of experiment (I know the leviathans claim it but what we actually see doesn't support that).

 

Besides, if what you say is true despite what we see in the game and the reapers do see the cycles as a temporary condition that is there to ultimately promote an improvement over the old situation, doesn't that kind of fall into the parameters of my previous argument? In that case, the reapers wouldn't promote stagnation at all, they would in fact promote advancement. I could accept that idea and it would probably make me feel slightly better about the cycles if the game actually supported this beyond one line from the Leviathans.

In any case, life still needs change, even in this interpretation of the story.


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#1304
JPVNG

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I have for the first time completed the trilogy...starting with Mass effect 1...got to the end yesterday...i had almost 8000 EMS...played paragon, not 100% but almost....when faced against the end options i did not hesitate..it was the best and only option..:

taking control would be a risk to great to face and Shepard like i played it would never, ever do it...the risk would be to great. Synthesis  was the most horrible option to me...as human i would never accept that...life is not perfect, humans don t want to be perfect, and like humans the all other races would never want something like this...perfect evolution? that is not life.

So the choice was, and it is an easy choice..Destroy was the only acceptable choice..yes my Shepard thinks that AI deserve to live and even have an independent life but not at this cost.

With the destroy option and the Reapers and the catalyst entity destroyed, humanity could hope to live again and maybe to solve the problem of the creation of AI. Shepard solved the conflict between the geth and the Quarians so the catalyst entity was wrong. It is possible to live in peace.

Dying to save the galaxy was a good death (yet i did not die ahaha)

Sorry for my english, i hope i made myself clear enough for you to understand my point of view.

Mass Effect is an extraordinary game. For the first time i felt the characters as i was living them. Despite some bitterness playing ME3. (those ppl on the citadel..so many effort to save it and they all died)


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#1305
JPVNG

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What should have changed the Catalyst/Reapers shouldn't have been the crucible.

It should have looked to the Geth and Quarians. They got to a consensus and proved that peace is possible.

The Catalyst was wrong and was an horrible thing.It was just bad, evil.

 

 

 "the crucible changed me" (me = the catalyst/reapers) and those options are offered for whatever reason that is not explained at all.

 

 



#1306
Dantriges

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Welcome to the club of latecomers to the series. ^_^ Finished in June 15.



#1307
Ieldra

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You make a few interesting points. Here's my take on that.

[...]
Can life exist without evolution?

My hypothesis is "No".
If we look at life without taking individuals into account, than it follows that we also can't take individual species into account. So just because the Nautius remained - as a species - rather stagnant for 500 million years doesn't tell you anything about life as a whole.

Oh, btw, just as a side note, even species that reproduce via mitosis evolve through mutation, They even have evolved their own mechanisms, like plasmid exchange to facilitate that process. If they wouldn't, meiosis and sexual reproduction would never have existed.

Anyway, since we have only one "life system" without any independent comparison to look at on earth, we can't really make a definite statement about the whole of life everywhere in the real world. If my hypothesis were true, we probably never will be able to do that even if we find other independent forms of life. As always in science, we can only go by the available evidence and our current n of 1, while not telling us much of course supports my hypothesis. Furthermore, what would life without evolution look like? (Maybe we should ask the synthesis people since they are "the pinnacle of evolution" and it would follow that they don't evolve or develop anymore. ;)).

The question has different answers depending on how you look at it. Can [optional qualifier: intelligent] life exist without evolution?

(1) No, because life can't arise from non-life without evolution
(2) No, because intelligent life can't arise from non-intelligent life without evolution

(3) Yes, because even if life is always subject to the forces of evolution, the probability that no change will result from that over any given length of time is non-zero.
(4) Yes, because once arisen, it is conceivable that it ceases to be subject to the forces of evolution at some point.

Furthermore, with regard to the MEU: are synthetics subject to the forces of evolution? I don't know, but my hypothesis would be: no, and neither will future civilizations necessarily be, if they acquired the ability to change their bodies accordingly. I can imagine something like "synthetic ecosystems" as well, or a civilization that has taken control of all changes to their biology. So my answer to the question you posed would ultimately be: life cannot exist without evolution in its history, but it can exist without evolution taking place at any given time, or for any period of time.

However, in Mass Effect, the reapers especially have a rather large n number and we get access to that information at the end. All the "life systems" (unfortunately I really can't think of a better word) that the reapers encountered were very similar to ours.
So I think the indications - at least in the ME universe (and I believe also in ours but that's just me) - are that my point from above stands. But more on the reapers below.

I think that my answer also applies to the MEU and the real universe. It is very likely that all living systems will be subject to the forces of evolution throughout their existence, unless prevented by active intervention by intelligent agents, but the claim that life *cannot* exist without evolution taking place over any given amount of time can't be maintained.

BTW (and this is a slightly different point), there may be an inherent problem with talking about life without taking the individual into account. The catalyst doesn't care but I wonder if that isn't a flaw in itself. Life as a system requires the co-operation of many individual elements (be that individual cells within an organism, individual bacteria in a colony or individual people in a population).
Consider that in Neuroscience at the moment for example we have a pretty good understanding of top-down processes (i.e. how the brain as a whole initiates behavior and reacts to stimuli, which parts are active during certain tasks, etc.). It's by no means complete but there is a lot of information out there. We also have a lot of information about the behavior of individual nerve cells, how they integrate information and create output, down to the point where we can simulate a lot of these single cells with great accuracy (again, not 100% but pretty good).
One of the big problems is to bring those two scales together and to understand how the interaction of millions of neurons and billions of connections creates the whole. Until we do that, we can only approximate and speculate about the exact workings of the brain but we cannot make accurate descriptions or predictions, let alone a simulation.
I think we may be encountering the very same inherent problem when talking about life. I have very crudely tried to allude to that issue in the post previous to my last one, when I was talking about the problems of maintaining stagnation internally in the face of individual concerns and goals. It's a problem I see there but you are right, I can't claim that I have a definitive answer to the question I posed above any more than you do.

If you want to go that way, I may point out that the idea "individual element" may not apply in the first place. We experience ourselves as individuals, but we're actually more of a symbiotic system, ecosystems of our own, so to speak. There are self-replicating biomolecules, there are cells, there are multicellular organisms, societies of multicellular organisms, species of societies of multicellular organisms, semi-isolated multi-species ecosystems in contact with each other and so on. There is even a hypothesis that biomolecules travel through space (they found aminoacids in space) and that's how life spreads through the galaxy. Where is the individual element in this hierarchy of interactions? The Catalyst may be perfectly justified when it talks about organic life as one thing whose constituents don't matter, in a similar way we talk about ourselves as one without taking our constituents into account.

Don't those 2 points mean that he would realize that the cycles cannot make sense exactly because of previously offered definition of life (which was my argument all along)? And if he did realize that, why do we need the choices, why wouldn't the reapers just stop unconditionally?

Which definition? Could you present your chain of logic again, concisely? I don't know what you're getting at here, and with the following paragraphs I snipped, and thus I can't anwer. IMO, my point (1) was an observation from evidence, there is no definition of life from which this follows.

But let's assume for the sake of argument that the crucible is somehow the solution that they were looking for and therefore they can now end the cycles (which really doesn't make sense but ok).
If that were the case and if the reapers were really interested in seeing if the organics can find another solution, than they shouldn't have opposed the crucible, they should have welcomed it. However, the catalyst states outright that they try to eradicate the entire idea and they do try to destroy it even while the catalyst offers the choices.

As far as I can see, there is no indication that the reapers ever want to end the cycle or that they conduct some sort of experiment (I know the leviathans claim it but what we actually see doesn't support that).

I'll have to concede that point.

(You know, I think the writers didn't really know what they wanted. First they make the building of the Crucible into a great achievement that will change everything, and the AI god admits it has been changed, giving the civilizations that built it agency, and then in the EC they actually reinforce the agency of the AI god by letting it say the Crucible is little more than a power source. I think someone *really* wanted there to be an SF analogue of a higher power as the source of the ultimate boon, as in Campbell's monomyth. An ill-advised choice on several different levels, and completely against the spirit of SF, as I see it.)

However, that doesn't invalidate my claims about life and the possibility that it may have to remain static for a time in order to survive. I wasn't out to defend the Reapers when I said all that, and I didn't actually claim the Reapers thought that way, only that the rationale for the cycle could be plausibly derived from such a stance, if they had it.

Besides, if what you say is true despite what we see in the game and the reapers do see the cycles as a temporary condition that is there to ultimately promote an improvement over the old situation, doesn't that kind of fall into the parameters of my previous argument? In that case, the reapers wouldn't promote stagnation at all, they would in fact promote advancement. I could accept that idea and it would probably make me feel slightly better about the cycles if the game actually supported this beyond one line from the Leviathans.
In any case, life still needs change, even in this interpretation of the story.

No. Life needs change if it needs to solve a problem. Otherwise, it's actually more efficient to remain static. Very common human attitudes point the same way: if everything's good, we want things to stay that way. It's just that many of us have the ability to always imagine something better.
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#1308
Dantriges

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Seems the Reaper never had a clue what the Crucible actually does. They opposed the Crucible because they had this idea that it´s an anti-reaper weapon.

 

Or to be more honest, welcoming the crucible with open arms wouldn´t have resulted in a space- and a protracted ground battle.



#1309
gothpunkboy89

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Even without their indoctrinating influence, Reapers are immensely powerful warships and their technology is devastating. One armament common with the various subtypes is a powerful "magnetohydrodynamic" weapon which ejects a stream of molten metal at a fraction of the speed of light, capable of tearing through a cruiser in a single sustained burst. The gigantic spinal-mounted gun of capital-class Reapers is able to rip through the hulls of even the largest of dreadnought-class ships with ease, effortlessly penetrating their kinetic shields. Reaper defences include powerful shields that could block the projectiles of an entire fleet, along with an incredibly strong hull.

Though they are sentient machines, the Reapers have habitable interiors that can transport a crew, either to help spread their indoctrinated slaves or to allow these slaves to tend to them, probably both. Speculation in the Codex suggests that each individual Reaper has a massive element zero core which, coupled with the likely enormous quantities of energies at its disposal, allows it to generate the staggering mass effect field needed to land ships of their size on a planet.

 

 

http://masseffect.wi...com/wiki/Reaper

 

Abilities: High powered weapons, computer accuracy, near invincibility, troop transport, Indoctrination, and fear factor.

 

I seem to be missing some context here.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but the complaint was that they don't need to convert the Harvesters and doing so goes against what they claim to do. When I point out that they used them specifically for aerial combat. With several missions they actively take part in to help keep our air ships from being used to full power against ground troops. And during the game they can and do spawn husks from them. So the Reapers contradict nothing of what they said. Because they didn't just do it for the lolz



#1310
MrFob

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You make a few interesting points. Here's my take on that.

The question has different answers depending on how you look at it. Can [optional qualifier: intelligent] life exist without evolution?

(1) No, because life can't arise from non-life without evolution
(2) No, because intelligent life can't arise from non-intelligent life without evolution

So far so good.
 

(3) Yes, because even if life is always subject to the forces of evolution, the probability that no change will result from that over any given length of time is non-zero.

But you said it yourself before, the environment in our universe is always changing. Wouldn't it follow that life also always has to change?
I don't mind admitting that those changes may take a very long time to be noticeable on a grand scale and for that time period a simple form of life may appear to stagnate in some way but not for long
 

(4) Yes, because once arisen, it is conceivable that it ceases to be subject to the forces of evolution at some point.

Hmmm, this answer seems to me like saying "yes because yes". But maybe I am missing something. My question is: Is this really conceivable? As I said in my last post, I have never observed this and I can't imagine how this would possibly work.
 

Furthermore, with regard to the MEU: are synthetics subject to the forces of evolution? I don't know, but my hypothesis would be: no, and neither will future civilizations necessarily be, if they acquired the ability to change their bodies accordingly. I can imagine something like "synthetic ecosystems" as well, or a civilization that has taken control of all changes to their biology. So my answer to the question you posed would ultimately be: life cannot exist without evolution in its history, but it can exist without evolution taking place at any given time, or for any period of time.

My answer to the question "are synthetics subject to the forces of evolution?" would be "yes". In the case of an AI, an AI is by definition an adaptable system capable of learning. If it has this cognitive capability, then it is alive and then it also will adapt to it's environment. Thus it will evolve. Maybe it will develop a hardware that will be so universally functional that it might not need much change for a long time but remember that change does not only mean physical form. Mental evolution, the creation of new ideas and knowladge is also part of this IMO (because ultimately it is nothing more than a physical change in our nervous system).
It can possibly even be argued that intelligence, organic or synthetic, may be a special case since our mental evolution changes our environment through a shift in perception (solve the mental conundrum of how the double slit experiment works by coming up with quantum mechanics and you end up in a new perceived environment where the new problem is to combine quantum mechanics with general relativity). But this may be a different argument to make and may take things too far in this context (and I have to admit, I may not have thought this all the way through, just an idea that cropped up while writing this). But if this is true for AI, then they may evolve without changing their physical form.
 
In the ME universe, the geth for example do evolve, both physically and mentally. Their ships don't look like the quarian ships, they have developed new platform types like the hoppers and they are trying to build a completely new "body" for themselves in the form of a dyson sphere.
 

I think that my answer also applies to the MEU and the real universe. It is very likely that all living systems will be subject to the forces of evolution throughout their existence, unless prevented by active intervention by intelligent agents, but the claim that life *cannot* exist without evolution taking place over any given amount of time can't be maintained.

This seems like the same situation as in your answer 4 above. I still do not see under which circumstances this could be the case.
 

If you want to go that way, I may point out that the idea "individual element" may not apply in the first place. We experience ourselves as individuals, but we're actually more of a symbiotic system, ecosystems of our own, so to speak. There are self-replicating biomolecules, there are cells, there are multicellular organisms, societies of multicellular organisms, species of societies of multicellular organisms, semi-isolated multi-species ecosystems in contact with each other and so on. There is even a hypothesis that biomolecules travel through space (they found aminoacids in space) and that's how life spreads through the galaxy. Where is the individual element in this hierarchy of interactions? The Catalyst may be perfectly justified when it talks about organic life as one thing whose constituents don't matter, in a similar way we talk about ourselves as one without taking our constituents into account.

Nono, I am fine with the catalyst talking about organic life as one thing. But when describing it, you have to acknowladge that "the whole" is constructed from a multitude of interacting particles on a whole number of scales. Sure, you can try to lump all of this together and look at it as one unified thing but it will not give you a complete understanding of the internal dynamics within it.
These dynamics may already prohibit a static nature of the whole system. You only need one element to change in order to change the whole because they are all interconnected. If only one cell mutates it changes the entire body. Maybe that change will go unnoticed (probably happens to us 99.999% of the time) or maybe you'll get cancer. The static nature of existence is only possible if all particles remain static. If you don't want to play favorites and move the scale down all the way from life as a whole to the atoms that it is built from, then brownian motion alone is enough to disqualify the static form of life.
Of course, we don't have any understanding about what exactly the dynamics are, so like the brain (or probably even far worse) we cannot simulate it or accurately make descriptions or predictions but we can say with certainty that any minuscule change will affect the whole and no matter how much one compensates, given enough time and those constant minuscule changes, it would follow that eventually there will be a noticeable change in the whole.
 

Which definition? Could you present your chain of logic again, concisely? I don't know what you're getting at here, and with the following paragraphs I snipped, and thus I can't anwer. IMO, my point (1) was an observation from evidence, there is no definition of life from which this follows.

Ok, maybe I misinterpreted you there. I figured that if (intelligent) life can never be content with the cycles, that should already be proof that stagnation is not an option. And that goes back to my initial mention that the catalyst has that high n number and therefore a lot of evidence that supports my initial hypothesis. So I felt that we were kind of talking about the same thing there but maybe I am mistaken and you wanted to say that despite all his data, the catalyst may still be wrong?
 

I'll have to concede that point.

(You know, I think the writers didn't really know what they wanted. First they make the building of the Crucible into a great achievement that will change everything, and the AI god admits it has been changed, giving the civilizations that built it agency, and then in the EC they actually reinforce the agency of the AI god by letting it say the Crucible is little more than a power source. I think someone *really* wanted there to be an SF analogue of a higher power as the source of the ultimate boon, as in Campbell's monomyth. An ill-advised choice on several different levels, and completely against the spirit of SF, as I see it.)

However, that doesn't invalidate my claims about life and the possibility that it may have to remain static for a time in order to survive. I wasn't out to defend the Reapers when I said all that, and I didn't actually claim the Reapers thought that way, only that the rationale for the cycle could be plausibly derived from such a stance, if they had it.

No, it doesn't invalidate that claim. I was just trying to (yet again) point out how foolish this story can be. Given the thread topic it seemed appropriate.
Still, I'd like to point out that you already shifted to saying "remain static for a time". That, if it only describes the grand scheme, I don't have a problem with at all. It's the "being static till the end of time" that bothers me.
That's what the catalyst apparently wants (before the crucible) and that's what I have a problem with.
 

No. Life needs change if it needs to solve a problem. Otherwise, it's actually more efficient to remain static. Very common human attitudes point the same way: if everything's good, we want things to stay that way. It's just that many of us have the ability to always imagine something better.

My point is, life always has a problem to solve sooner or later. Since the environment is not static, neither can life be. The only way to prevent that would be to cool down the entire universe to absolute zero and that would be - as I alluded to in my very first post in this discussion - death.
 
And on yet another side note, the evidence in our own past (and in the catalyst's experiments in the ME story) suggests that life is not static when conditions are ideal. In this case, it grows/replicates, still promoting change (and inevitably creating new problems for itself ;)). Again, if you look up a definition of the word life, this is actually part of it in most cases (not that that alone is enough of an argument).
 
EDIT: Oh, that brings something to mind - Off topic spoiler:

Spoiler



 

Seems the Reaper never had a clue what the Crucible actually does. They opposed the Crucible because they had this idea that it´s an anti-reaper weapon.

Or to be more honest, welcoming the crucible with open arms wouldn´t have resulted in a space- and a protracted ground battle.

They even oppose it after it changed the catalyst. How weird is that?


Modifié par MrFob, 24 mars 2016 - 03:42 .

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#1311
Dantriges

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I thought the part, where they still shoot at it, was cut in the EC?



#1312
Natureguy85

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I seem to be missing some context here.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but the complaint was that they don't need to convert the Harvesters and doing so goes against what they claim to do. When I point out that they used them specifically for aerial combat. With several missions they actively take part in to help keep our air ships from being used to full power against ground troops. And during the game they can and do spawn husks from them. So the Reapers contradict nothing of what they said. Because they didn't just do it for the lolz

 

The point is that they don't need Harvesters because they are Reapers and can do everything Harvesters do and more.


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#1313
MrFob

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I thought the part, where they still shoot at it, was cut in the EC?

 

Nope, it's still there. Try to walk up the ramp for one of the endings and walk it back down. It'll say "The crucible has been destroyed".



#1314
Dantriges

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Ah ok. Sweet. :rolleyes:

 

Yeah perhaps reapers can´t do everything what Harvesters can do but OTOH trying to convert a huge flying species found on some planets into air cavalry is a rather suboptimal choice.



#1315
Ieldra

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@MrFob:

I'll try to recreate the structure of the debate I feel we lost in the exchange. In this post, I'll distinguish between the complete evolutionary stasis we were discussing, and the limited technological stasis of the Reapers' extinction cycle, and of any other means one might use to prevent the organic/synthetic extinction scenario the Catalyst claims is inevitable, if that claim is true and if no permanent solution can be found.   

 

(1) Complete evolutionary stasis

 

We had been discussing the question of whether static life can exist, and whether it is meaningful for life to exist if it's static in some way, because the extinction cycle prevented any change in the circumstances of organic, and because I presented the possibility for a temporary stasis in order to avoid disaster.

 

I think the basic question "Can static life exist", preliminarily defined as life that isn't subject to the forces of evolution, while interesting, is somewhat academic. I can't prove that it can exist because I'd have to demonstrate such life in concept and prove that the concept is viable, and you can't prove that it can't exist because all that's needed for my claim to be true is that it is conceivable and can possibly exist, not that it actually exists, even if I can't demonstrate its viability. Even more importantly, all definitions of life we can refer to in order to lay the groundworks for our claims don't take synthetic life into account, and since synthetic life exists in the MEU, those definitions fall short. Which means that with the means at our disposal, we won't be able to come to a conclusion.

 

I am prepared to concede your point, however, if we extend the meaning of "evolution" beyond the strictly biological and accept the "mental evolution" you mentioned in your last answer as being part of an ecosystem's natural evolution once it has achieved intelligence, and in addition, set the condition that environments don't remain static for an ecosystem's remaining lifetime after it has achieved intelligence. I think that's a reasonable condition to set, even if it's not necessarily true for all imaginable systems.  

 

I'm usually not fond of changing the meaning of "evolution" in debates about these things, since it plays into common misconceptions of evolution - advancement does not equal evolution - but I think it may clear up some confusion here. I think a civilization *can* stop the mechanisms of biological evolution for an ecosystem and continue to exist, but a civilization with that ability will continue to change in response to changing circumstances. It will just be a directed process, just as in the case of synthetic life in your example.

 

With that said, I propose we lay that debate to rest. It is actually not relevant to ME3's plot, because none of the participants of the conflict make such claims, not even implicitly. The Reapers don't aim for a total stasis, they aim for a technological stasis in one area only, namely the development of synthetic life. 

 

(2) Limited technological stasis

 

I think, in this are there is something I may not have taken into account previously: the fact that we create our own evolutionary environment to some extent (I'm using the term in the extended meaning proposed above), and that limitations drive advancement. I think a case can be made that it is impossible for a technological civilization to arise in an ecosystem that just accepts its limitations and remains static. It is debatable - see above - if such a system can exist at all, but even if it exists, it will never be able to extend its reach. This means, that if a civilization reaches the point where the Reapers target it for extinction, it is necessarily one that chafes at its limitations. Again, it is conceivable that this changes at some point after the system achieved sentience and technology, but this would be tantamount to changing its fundamental nature. In order to illustrate this, consider that for human civilization to get there, we'd have to eliminate competition - in the most general sense, not just economic, and on every level, not just between individuals. I think a case can be made that whatever the result, it wouldn't be a human civilization any more, in the sense that we wouldn't recognize its people as ourselves. The species may not care about changing its nature, but then, if it achieves stasis, then the Reapers wouldn't target it for extinction, and it would be a dead end of evolution as well.

 

Ironically, this feeds into the Reapers' rationale for the extinction cycle, for it means you won't be able to prevent advancement except through a kind of totalitarian control that would make North Korea look soft - or through extinction, and the latter is quite a bit more economical. On the other hand, it may be the reason for recognizing that the cycle won't work anymore: they almost came too late this time. Eventually, they *will* come too late, and they don't have the resources to keep the whole galaxy subjugated and subject to totalitarian control.

 

(3) Conclusions for the Catalyst's reasoning

 

This means that if the Catalyst's reasoning stayed intact after the Crucible docked, then it should never have accepted its own destruction or subsumption (Destroy or Control). That would go against its fundamental purpose, for it means it will forego any agency over the future, without even the remotest assertion that the problem it was built to solve will be addressed at all. On the other hand, if the Crucible dominated its thinking to a degree that made it accept those options against its own interests, it should've been powerful enough to just make it stop as well, because stopping and remaining alive to possibly reclaim agency in the future is better than being destroyed or subsumed with your purpose unfulfilled.

 

I can only think of one scenario that fits this logic without contradiction or turning the Catalyst incoherent: The designers of the Crucible designed the scenarios, and "just stop and wait" wasn't on their agenda. That actually makes sense.

 

Only the writers clearly didn't want this interpretation. They wanted this "god-analogue that offers the ultimate boon". They didn't want galactic civilization or its representative, Shepard, to have primary agency over the future, only secondary agency by choosing from the set of ultimate boons offered by the god analogue. And that, I believe, is the main element that made the endings so unpleasant in the end.

 

In the last few days, I've been writing up an alternative exposition for the same choices we have that may have mitigated that effect drastically. I'll post it in a separate thread once it's ready.
 


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#1316
dorktainian

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once again, why refer to starjar as the catalyst?  He's a reaper illusion designed to make you choose what they want you to choose.

Any ending where the reapers survive is bad.

 

Shepard is the Catalyst.

 

Destroy FTW.  Someone gives you an I WIN button you use it.

 

Note - refusal also ends the cycle, but in 50,000 years so how can Synthesis or Control be correct?


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#1317
Ieldra

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Yesyes, I know, IT is true, Destroy is the only choice and everyone who thinks otherwise is stupid and deluded. Now go away, please. We don't have to accept IT in order to contest the OP's claim.



#1318
themikefest

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(those ppl on the citadel..so many effort to save it and they all died)

According to Patrick Weekes, people did survive


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#1319
KrrKs

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Correct me if I'm wrong but the complaint was that they don't need to convert the Harvesters and doing so goes against what they claim to do. When I point out that they used them specifically for aerial combat. With several missions they actively take part in to help keep our air ships from being used to full power against ground troops. And during the game they can and do spawn husks from them. So the Reapers contradict nothing of what they said. Because they didn't just do it for the lolz

The point is that they don't need Harvesters because they are Reapers and can do everything Harvesters do and more.

Yeah perhaps reapers can´t do everything what Harvesters can do but OTOH trying to convert a huge flying species found on some planets into air cavalry is a rather suboptimal choice.

 

Even IF the reapers couldn't do everything the harvesters can (which is definitely not supported by the game), or maybe they lacked numbers to be everywhere at once (also not supported by the game, also, Harvesters are not spaceflight capable, they need to be transported by reapers!):

Reapers do carry Oculi, which are AI or VI -controlled space superiority fighters, capable of damaging frigates! As seen in the ME3 Prologue and 'the fleets arrive' these are also comparable to Trident fighters, meaning they are superior to shuttles or Harvesters in every way. So the Reapers do not need harvesters for that task.

Reapers (as well as their troop transports) can launch drop-pots full of husks and other ground troops from orbit, they don't need harvesters for that either.



#1320
Natureguy85

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once again, why refer to starjar as the catalyst?  He's a reaper illusion designed to make you choose what they want you to choose.

Any ending where the reapers survive is bad.

 

Shepard is the Catalyst.

 

Destroy FTW.  Someone gives you an I WIN button you use it.

 

Note - refusal also ends the cycle, but in 50,000 years so how can Synthesis or Control be correct?

 

Starjar is the Catalyst because that's his name. That's really it. He says he was supposed to be the Catalyst for peace or something.

 

 

According to Patrick Weekes, people did survive

 

At least until the Citadel explodes.

 

 

Even IF the reapers couldn't do everything the harvesters can (which is definitely not supported by the game), or maybe they lacked numbers to be everywhere at once (also not supported by the game, also, Harvesters are not spaceflight capable, they need to be transported by reapers!):

Reapers do carry Oculi, which are AI or VI -controlled space superiority fighters, capable of damaging frigates! As seen in the ME3 Prologue and 'the fleets arrive' these are also comparable to Trident fighters, meaning they are superior to shuttles or Harvesters in every way. So the Reapers do not need harvesters for that task.

Reapers (as well as their troop transports) can launch drop-pots full of husks and other ground troops from orbit, they don't need harvesters for that either.

 

Actually, the Oculus are piloted by Collector brains. No joke.

 

 

http://masseffect.wi...com/wiki/Oculus

 

 

Yesyes, I know, IT is true, Destroy is the only choice and everyone who thinks otherwise is stupid and deluded. Now go away, please. We don't have to accept IT in order to contest the OP's claim.

 

Who said anything about IT? The Catalyst wants you to pick Synthesis. That it's clearly trying to convince you of the benefits is not the same as IT, which says the ending is all in Shepard's head.


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#1321
Monica21

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once again, why refer to starjar as the catalyst?


Because it calls itself the Catalyst. I understand your point, but saying "the Catalyst" and meaning Shepard just leads to confusion.

#1322
themikefest

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At least until the Citadel explodes.

Tell that to Weekes who said people do survive



#1323
Natureguy85

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Tell that to Weekes who said people do survive

 

Through the magic of writer fiat. The guy that chimes in forgot that they had to put breather masks on when walking outside the elevator in ME1. Also, gravity is from centrifugal force. That would be lost once the Citadel opens up, let alone when it explodes.

 

In fairness, it does make some sense that each ward would have it's own Mass Effect Field generators for keeping the atmosphere held down, though I do have a hard time believing that was all maintained when the whole thing explodes so violently. While it is only the Presidum that gets destroyed, the Wards would no doubt be heavily damaged.


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#1324
MrFob

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@MrFob:
 
snip

 
Yep, I can pretty much agree with all of that.

The only sentence that I still have a bit of an issue with is this one:

The Reapers don't aim for a total stasis, they aim for a technological stasis in one area only, namely the development of synthetic life.

While I agree that this is their aim, with the cycles (at least with what we see about them) they do enact total stasis. But as you say, they may not have another choice.

 

Also very much agree with the ending analysis. One of the things I never understood was why destroy was there as an option but the reapers just stopping was not there.

 

Looking forward to reading that rewrite.



#1325
JPVNG

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According to Patrick Weekes, people did survive

Well...thanks....i m more ...wait....no.. i still feel the bitterness  :(