3578 réponses à ce sujet

[gothpunkboy89]

Why put in the time and work to make new stuff every invasion, assuming you find something suitable, when you can prepare ahead of time and have that thing for every invasion?

 

This just in: A few hundred years = centuries.

 

Ok, so how many Reapers are there? The Reapers are not literally infinite but they are functionally infinite. This means that the finite number is whatever the author says it is. Remember, their numbers will darken the sky of every world. Also, once again, what's the rush? You've made the point before that time is nothing to the Reapers.

 

I don't know. If I had literally nothing else to do I might do that task the slow way to keep myself busy. Or if I really enjoyed pulling slabs.

 

Because each time they erase the fact they exist. That means leaving their hordes of troops behind to wither and die. It is a very effective strategy since the actual effort to create new troops is minimal. They don't even need to be alive to create husks as the dragon's teeth pierce their chest and brutes are a Turian head and a Krogan body.

 

Yes but the Protheans took even longer. There is a difference between 200 years and 300, 400 or even 500. As it is stated several centuries for Protheans while Liara calculates only a couple for them.

 

And their numbers do dark the sky over every world. But there is only a finite supply of viable worlds. Some less then others pretty sure you could count Volus worlds with 1 hand. Why not rush? Just because you have all the time in the world doesn't mean you can't attempt to speed things up? Besides quicker you harvest the quicker you can get to the clean up and less time the cycle has to leave behind nuggets of information for the next cycle.

[MrFob]

Yes, but when you get down to it, the Reapers could have done it at any time, including prior to the game.  

 

Uh, not necessarily. I mean, they did try in ME1 and failed (yes, Sovi could have tried to indoctrinate more people but for whatever reason he didn't). After that they don't have a reaper in the galaxy so they can't easily get more people.

When they are there, this is exactly what they probably do. Thing is, indoctrinating people without just turning them useless takes time so they can't just go for the Citadel instantly, hence the plot of ME3.

 

@mikefest: It's the same thing as a couple of days ago in the other thread. We are both speculating on something that's not explicitely made clear in the game either way. You choose to believe stuff that makes the plot not work, I choose to believe stuff that makes the plot work. to each their own.

 

As for you answer to "What good will that do?" I don't know, I'd say chances are that leaders would still have tried to coordinate somehow, somewhere, Citadel or not. But the fact remains, in a worst case scenario, the reapers may have lost the Citadel for good (or at least for a very long time). And it's not like the reapers are loosing without the Citadel anyway.

[von uber]

No, they can't lose it - because the catalyst is there.

Every scenario fails or is rendered moot by its presence.

Edit - actually make that should be rendered moot, because clearly bioware didn't think this through.

[MrFob]

No, they can't lose it - because the catalyst is there.

Every scenario fails or is rendered moot by its presence.

 

As I said in my last response to you, I agree that the catalyst requires significant head canon or to outright ignore it to make things work no matter what you do, not only in this instance but in a lot of others as well.

[Natureguy85]

I believe they can. Until BioWare says otherwise, I say the reapers can open/close them without using the Citadel.
 

 

Open, yes. If they can close them, why don't they?

 

 

Because each time they erase the fact they exist. That means leaving their hordes of troops behind to wither and die. It is a very effective strategy since the actual effort to create new troops is minimal. They don't even need to be alive to create husks as the dragon's teeth pierce their chest and brutes are a Turian head and a Krogan body.

 

If they had ships instead of the Harvesters they can take them back through the relay with them like they do all their other ships. We're not talking about the availability of things to make into troops generally. We're talking about a suitable template for a particular role.

 

 

Yes but the Protheans took even longer. There is a difference between 200 years and 300, 400 or even 500. As it is stated several centuries for Protheans while Liara calculates only a couple for them.

 

Not really for Reapers. Again, what's the rush?

 

 

Why not rush? Just because you have all the time in the world doesn't mean you can't attempt to speed things up? Besides quicker you harvest the quicker you can get to the clean up and less time the cycle has to leave behind nuggets of information for the next cycle.

 

Well, they have nothing else to do until the next cycle. Preventing a message for the future is actually a fair point but there's no indication that has ever been a problem of time. Ilos and the Crucible plans were flat out missed.

[themikefest]

Open, yes. If they can close them, why don't they?

The same reason the destroyer didn't fire at the Normandy on Earth

The same reason the reaper fired vertically instead of horizontally on both Tuchanka and Rannoch at Shepard

The same reason they didn't turn off the beam when everyone was on their suicide run

 

 For them to be all powerful, intelligent and adaptive to the surroundings, they failed badly.  I'm sure the previous cycles wish the reapers were as dumb as they are in this cycle for their cycle.

[Iakus]

Uh, not necessarily. I mean, they did try in ME1 and failed (yes, Sovi could have tried to indoctrinate more people but for whatever reason he didn't). After that they don't have a reaper in the galaxy so they can't easily get more people.

When they are there, this is exactly what they probably do. Thing is, indoctrinating people without just turning them useless takes time so they can't just go for the Citadel instantly, hence the plot of ME3.

 

The Reapers had months to indoctrinate however many million batarians they needed.  And by shortly after ME3 starts, they have invaded turian space as well.

[MrFob]

The Reapers had months to indoctrinate however many million batarians they needed.  And by shortly after ME3 starts, they have invaded turian space as well.

And how many batarians do you know that can just stroll around on the presidium or the tower without being closely watched?

 

And yea, they probably started on the turians as soon as they got to Palaven. But as Saren tells us, if you want capable agents you have to indoctrinate them slowly. We don't know how long, Saren learned about Sovereign in 2168, so there is a lot of wiggle room in the time frame. Certainly enough for the plot of ME3 to take place.

[General TSAR]

Here's a question: Why the hell didn't the Reapers capture the Citadel first? 

[Callidus Thorn]

Here's a question: Why the hell didn't the Reapers capture the Citadel first? 

 

Because any semblance of intelligence from the Reapers means inevitable, crushing doom for that particular cycle?

[KrrKs]

If they had ships instead of the Harvesters they can take them back through the relay with them like they do all their other ships. We're not talking about the availability of things to make into troops generally. We're talking about a suitable template for a particular role.

They can take the Harvester on board reapers or transport ships just the same.

Considering the relative scarcity of un-reaperfied wormheads and the number of harvesters seen during ME3, the encountered ones may actually be cloned versions stemming from the last cycle, similar to the collectors. Which would mean that they are a better template for the 'chopper' role than whatever Reapers used before. (Imo a slightly modified Oculus with attached troop compartments should still be superior...)

 

For them to be all powerful, intelligent and adaptive to the surroundings, they failed badly.

That's just because they are playing reaping according to the new 'you may only choose one' -rule set. Harby wrote that to make things more interesting...

(But then again, there are Reapers like Dave, who never listen and just stomp things. DAVE! How old are you? 2 cycles!? Stop it already! There, now you got Krogan squish under your feet! It's DISGUSTING, get it off! If you are not stopping this, you'll get eaten by a worm oneday, I tell you...)

 

W.r.t. the Serpent Nebula: IIRC what Mr.Fob posted was already part of the ME1 codex, and not unique to the comics.

[Natureguy85]

Here's a question: Why the hell didn't the Reapers capture the Citadel first? 

 

Because then they'd have to make a new, interesting hub world. I used to say that the reason was because there would be no game, but then I realized that the IFF would mean the Normandy is the only ship that could get around, making it special again since they took away the stealth as far as the Reapers, the actual enemy, are concerned. I suppose we couldn't fight Cerberus constantly, but they could just BS that Cerberus copied the IFF somehow.

 

 

They can take the Harvester on board reapers or transport ships just the same.

Considering the relative scarcity of un-reaperfied wormheads and the number of harvesters seen during ME3, the encountered ones may actually be cloned versions stemming from the last cycle, similar to the collectors. Which would mean that they are a better template for the 'chopper' role than whatever Reapers used before. (Imo a slightly modified Oculus with attached troop compartments should still be superior...)

 

How do you know how scare "un-reaperfied wormheads" are? You don't see many because they just background creatures for worlds you visit a tiny section of. Anyway, they could be clones, but like you said at the end, I'm sure the Reapers can just make something better for the role and have it all the time. And it would have less inferior squishy bits.

[Iakus]

And how many batarians do you know that can just stroll around on the presidium or the tower without being closely watched?

 

And yea, they probably started on the turians as soon as they got to Palaven. But as Saren tells us, if you want capable agents you have to indoctrinate them slowly. We don't know how long, Saren learned about Sovereign in 2168, so there is a lot of wiggle room in the time frame. Certainly enough for the plot of ME3 to take place.

Given Rana Thanoptis, I doubt years are required to get useful agents.  She couldn't have been at Virmire more than a few months.

[Abedsbrother]

I suppose we couldn't fight Cerberus constantly, but they could just BS that Cerberus copied the IFF somehow.

They already did. That's how TIM was able to salvage the bits and pieces of the Reaper baby from the Collector base. I believe there's an explicit reference to IFF duplication in Mass Effect Invasion - though I know how you feel about "secondary" materials.

[Natureguy85]

They already did. That's how TIM was able to salvage the bits and pieces of the Reaper baby from the Collector base. I believe there's an explicit reference to IFF duplication in Mass Effect Invasion - though I know how you feel about "secondary" materials.

 

Correct. They somehow copied a piece of technology they never had in their control. It was on the Reaper, then the Normandy. I assume it's the same magic that allows them to recover technology including pieces of the Reaper baby even if you blew up the base. Even if those things weren't destroyed, they would have been thrown out into the madness that is the galactic core and should not have been recoverable.

[Reorte]

Correct. They somehow copied a piece of technology they never had in their control. It was on the Reaper, then the Normandy. I assume it's the same magic that allows them to recover technology including pieces of the Reaper baby even if you blew up the base. Even if those things weren't destroyed, they would have been thrown out into the madness that is the galactic core and should not have been recoverable.

EDI could've been sending everything she'd found out about the IFF prior to use back to TIM.

[gothpunkboy89]

 

If they had ships instead of the Harvesters they can take them back through the relay with them like they do all their other ships. We're not talking about the availability of things to make into troops generally. We're talking about a suitable template for a particular role.

 

Not really for Reapers. Again, what's the rush?

 

Well, they have nothing else to do until the next cycle. Preventing a message for the future is actually a fair point but there's no indication that has ever been a problem of time. Ilos and the Crucible plans were flat out missed.

 

Why need a template when they can alter species to fit what they need? Ravagers look nothing like the Rachnii they are created from. Neither do Cannibals.  Every species has it's strengths and weakness and at any point during the harvest they can alter them to fit their needs. It is why they took the pure brute strength of the Krogan and put the intelligence of a Turian together.  The very nature of how Reapers are created shows they have an understanding of cellular biology and all sorts of other fancy tech words that we can't even grasp.

 

Just because you have all the time in the world doesn't mean you automatically take your time. It is a rather interesting logic you are trying to use based on how you think. Making the assumption that everyone and everything will think like you. The fact is the Reapers were created with a purpose in mind. You are anthropomorphizeing them far far to much. They don't think like you or I would. They wouldn't be sitting there bored with nothing to do in Darkspace but sleep. They were created with a purpose and once the harvest starts there is no reason for them to slow down or take it easy. No reason to purposefully extended it another 200 years just for the lolz or something to do.

 

How ever the longer they take the more time it gives the species of the galaxy to unite against them. And the more time it gives them to flee to hidden pockets in the galaxy to wait them out. Or leave behind data and information that after it has accumulated enough could pose a risk to them. The examples of the Protheans and the Crucible are best examples of this. If either Javik's group or the group on Ilos survived in sufficient numbers to keep their gene pool varied enough. Another 50,000 years of Prothean advancement. Plus the foreknowledge of when the Reapers will show up would have significantly altered how the fight went down. In all likely hood the Reapers would have been met with the combined fleets of the galaxy united under the Prothean Empire as technological equals. Rather then the cave man with a sharped stick vs an M-1 tank as in game shows.

[MrFob]

Given Rana Thanoptis, I doubt years are required to get useful agents.  She couldn't have been at Virmire more than a few months.

Still, until she actually shows signs, it does take years. Besides, ME3's plot probably only takes a few months, so it's fine.

[Natureguy85]

EDI could've been sending everything she'd found out about the IFF prior to use back to TIM.

 

I think that's a stretch but it's a possible handwave.

 

 

Why need a template when they can alter species to fit what they need? Ravagers look nothing like the Rachnii they are created from. Neither do Cannibals.  Every species has it's strengths and weakness and at any point during the harvest they can alter them to fit their needs. It is why they took the pure brute strength of the Krogan and put the intelligence of a Turian together.  The very nature of how Reapers are created shows they have an understanding of cellular biology and all sorts of other fancy tech words that we can't even grasp.

 

Then why use Harvesters to make Reaper-Harvesters, rather than make them out of, say, Vorcha? Regardless of any other husk type, Reaper Harvesters look a lot like Regular Harvesters.  Marauders look just like Turians. The batarian influence on Cannibals is obvious. And Ravagers certainly do look like Rachni. They have the same head, arched back, and legs. You have to look closely at pictures to really see this.

 

The Turians would probably be mad that you say Brutes have their intelligence. The Reapers just stuck a Turian head on a mutated Krogan body. Why not use a Salarian head if it was for smarts? What is the reason or benefit for the gun arm of Cannibals being made from a human corpse? It's all for body horror.

 

 

 

Just because you have all the time in the world doesn't mean you automatically take your time. It is a rather interesting logic you are trying to use based on how you think.

 

How ever the longer they take the more time it gives the species of the galaxy to unite against them. And the more time it gives them to flee to hidden pockets in the galaxy to wait them out. Or leave behind data and information that after it has accumulated enough could pose a risk to them.

 

You're the one who made the argument that the Reapers can take their time and time didn't matter to them when it suited your argument at the time. You talk about time being a factor to prevent some hidden plan. A counter argument is that they should take the time to be thorough and make sure they don't miss anything. Of course, none of this is at all relevant to the question of making Harvesters to fill a need vs just making something that fulfills that need.  They don't know about the Crucible. It makes sense that they know about the Conduit and Ilos but we don't know for sure, unless I am forgetting something that says they do.

 

 

 

They wouldn't be sitting there bored with nothing to do in Darkspace but sleep.

 

Oh, and what are they doing out there then? Playing rugby?

 

 If either Javik's group or the group on Ilos survived in sufficient numbers to keep their gene pool varied enough. Another 50,000 years of Prothean advancement. Plus the foreknowledge of when the Reapers will show up would have significantly altered how the fight went down. In all likely hood the Reapers would have been met with the combined fleets of the galaxy united under the Prothean Empire as technological equals. Rather then the cave man with a sharped stick vs an M-1 tank as in game shows.

 

I doubt two cycles would be enough to match the Reapers, but I suppose it's possible.

[MrFob]

 

I doubt two cycles would be enough to match the Reapers, but I suppose it's possible.

 

Isn't this part of what Sovereign was there for? The idea was that he'd monitor the galaxy and if either the species develop far enough or if signs of survivors of the previous cycles show or anything else that could threaten the cycles for that matter, he'd call in the others and BAM, game over man.

[Natureguy85]

Isn't this part of what Sovereign was there for? The idea was that he'd monitor the galaxy and if either the species develop far enough or if signs of survivors of the previous cycles show or anything else that could threaten the cycles for that matter, he'd call in the others and BAM, game over man.

 

Well he was there to determine when it was time for the next cycle to start, but at the time we really didn't know what that meant. We still don't because the writers suddenly decided it was every 50,000 years like a clock. Which further hurts ME1 since the Citadel Relay just needs a timer, not a signal to the Keepers.

[MrFob]

Well he was there to determine when it was time for the next cycle to start, but at the time we really didn't know what that meant. We still don't because the writers suddenly decided it was every 50,000 years like a clock. Which further hurts ME1 since the Citadel Relay just needs a timer, not a signal to the Keepers.

 

Do they? AFAIK, there is never any precise measurement or clock established. Sure, people say "every 50.000 years" but that always seemed more like a figure of speech than anything else to me.

[gothpunkboy89]

Then why use Harvesters to make Reaper-Harvesters, rather than make them out of, say, Vorcha? Regardless of any other husk type, Reaper Harvesters look a lot like Regular Harvesters.  Marauders look just like Turians. The batarian influence on Cannibals is obvious. And Ravagers certainly do look like Rachni. They have the same head, arched back, and legs. You have to look closely at pictures to really see this.

 

The Turians would probably be mad that you say Brutes have their intelligence. The Reapers just stuck a Turian head on a mutated Krogan body. Why not use a Salarian head if it was for smarts? What is the reason or benefit for the gun arm of Cannibals being made from a human corpse? It's all for body horror.

 

You're the one who made the argument that the Reapers can take their time and time didn't matter to them when it suited your argument at the time. You talk about time being a factor to prevent some hidden plan. A counter argument is that they should take the time to be thorough and make sure they don't miss anything. Of course, none of this is at all relevant to the question of making Harvesters to fill a need vs just making something that fulfills that need.  They don't know about the Crucible. It makes sense that they know about the Conduit and Ilos but we don't know for sure, unless I am forgetting something that says they do.

 

Oh, and what are they doing out there then? Playing rugby?

 

I doubt two cycles would be enough to match the Reapers, but I suppose it's possible.

 

And yet with the exception of Husks you clearly can see how they altered them to suit their needs. Only really husks get minimal change. Never said they completely altered them beyond all recognizing their original form.  Salarians are not made for combat compared to Turians. Spies, assassin's, saboteurs yes. But their method of combat isn't direct fighting. If you think about it Salarian and Krogan represent extreme ends of the spectrum. Turians how ever sit about in the center.  They are capable of planning, strategy and sabatoge like the Salarians. But they are also capable of willing to go face to face with their enemies. But they strategies a bit better then simply throw more and more krogans at the problem till one side of the other is completely dead.

 

You are confusing two separate things I thought you would be able to separate on their own.  Waiting to launch the invasion they have all the time in the world to wait for the best moment to strike. When they can do the most amount of damage at the first strike to disorganize the galaxy. Once the harvest starts they don't have a literally clock counting down to when it needs to be done. How ever there are external reasons to get it done as effectively as they can. The biggest one is preventing this cycle from leaving clues for the next cycle.

 

At the end of the Prothean Cycle they were capable of creating their own mass relay. Which is a big feat because Relays operate on very different logic then standard ME fields.  Instantaneous transport without effecting space or time is a big jump up from applying an electrical current to an element to increase or decreases it's mass. And head cannon here harnessing that tech is why the Reapers seem to be able to travel so much faster and take so many more hits besides the obvious fact they are larger and would have more shields

 

Isn't this part of what Sovereign was there for? The idea was that he'd monitor the galaxy and if either the species develop far enough or if signs of survivors of the previous cycles show or anything else that could threaten the cycles for that matter, he'd call in the others and BAM, game over man.

 

Yea but Protheans would know about citadel and all the secrets. They could in theory hide on worlds like Illos/Eden Prime and wait for their numbers and tech to develop enough before striking out into the galaxy. They would only need a few people to get to the citadel, alter the keeper signal, over ride the reaper control and lock down the station.  If they waited for other species to achieve interstellar travel they could blend in with them. Keeping their true nature hidden until it was time to strike.  They never really go into how Sovereign watches. Hinting that it relies on using pawns to keep it's discovery a secret.  It wouldn't be easy but it would be possible.

.

[von uber]

They would only need a few people to get to the citadel, alter the keeper signal, over ride the reaper control and lock down the station. 

 

Until the Catalyst just opens the relay itself, or signals the Reapers to come in 6 months and we are done and dusted.

[gothpunkboy89]

Until the Catalyst just opens the relay itself, or signals the Reapers to come in 6 months and we are done and dusted.

 

They managed to over ride the keeper signal without getting caught before.