3578 réponses à ce sujet

[von uber]

They managed to over ride the keeper signal without getting caught before.

 

That was before the catalyst was created by Bioware to trample over all the lore.

[gothpunkboy89]

That was before the catalyst was created by Bioware to trample over all the lore.

 

No it doesn't actually effect anything. Closing it might alter something but altering the Keeper signal isn't fundamentally changing the Citadel.

 

Remember Sovereign signals the Keepers. The Keepers then manually open the Citadel in responds to the signal.

[von uber]

Remember Sovereign signals the Keepers. The Keepers then manually open the Citadel in responds to the signal.

 

Which makes no sense given the existence of the catalyst, nor the fact that it appears the reapers can just turn up under their own steam whenever they feel like it,

[gothpunkboy89]

Which makes no sense given the existence of the catalyst, nor the fact that it appears the reapers can just turn up under their own steam whenever they feel like it,

 

 

Why would the Catalyst have any control over the Citadel? It created the Reapers specifically to handle any and all parts of the harvest design it created. Why would it need to control the Citadel when it already controls the Reapers?

[Callidus Thorn]

Why would the Catalyst have any control over the Citadel? It created the Reapers specifically to handle any and all parts of the harvest design it created. Why would it need to control the Citadel when it already controls the Reapers

 

If you can't think of a reason, you simply aren't trying.

 

Considering the importance of the Citadel in their plan, having a contingency that allow it to be activated directly is sensible. Not having one is an intentional act of stupidity.

 

The simple convenience of it. Why rely on the Keepers when it's not necessary? The Citadel functions it would need to control were hidden anyway, so it's not as if it would have exposed itself to detection.

 

Common sense. Who, outside of the writers of a videogame/story, would leave the controlling intelligence completely and utterly vulnerable in the event of it being discovered? It's not as though it can expect help to arrive in a timely fashion.

 

If the Catalyst has no control over the Citadel, then it is, in essence, imprisoned there. And if that's the case, then you really have to wonder about the premise that it controls the Reapers.

[Natureguy85]

Do they? AFAIK, there is never any precise measurement or clock established. Sure, people say "every 50.000 years" but that always seemed more like a figure of speech than anything else to me.

 

I don't think it's ever nailed down in the story (which is why it's annoying), but the ME2 intro states it.

 

 

 

 

Why would the Catalyst have any control over the Citadel? It created the Reapers specifically to handle any and all parts of the harvest design it created.

 

What? Why wouldn't the Catalyst have control over the Citadel? Why farm it out to the Reapers? Remember it says the Citadel is part of it.

 

 

 Why would it need to control the Citadel when it already controls the Reapers?

You said it leaves the Reapers to do their thing without being active. Make up your mind.
 

[gothpunkboy89]

If you can't think of a reason, you simply aren't trying.

 

Considering the importance of the Citadel in their plan, having a contingency that allow it to be activated directly is sensible. Not having one is an intentional act of stupidity.

 

The simple convenience of it. Why rely on the Keepers when it's not necessary? The Citadel functions it would need to control were hidden anyway, so it's not as if it would have exposed itself to detection.

 

Common sense. Who, outside of the writers of a videogame/story, would leave the controlling intelligence completely and utterly vulnerable in the event of it being discovered? It's not as though it can expect help to arrive in a timely fashion.

 

If the Catalyst has no control over the Citadel, then it is, in essence, imprisoned there. And if that's the case, then you really have to wonder about the premise that it controls the Reapers.

 

 

All the Citadel is is just an elaborate trap. To lure the citizens of the galaxy to set up their galactic capital on it. Which would have the benefit of not only cutting off the head of the galactic civilization which would throw them into chaos. Perfect for Reapers to harvest first. Add on top of it because it would be the capital of the galactic civilizations it would contain tons of data about the species being harvested. Data that would be used both to help with the harvest and data that would be retained to be stored in a Reaper.

 

Keepers simply act as false sense of security to lull the species that find it into not paying attention. You catch more flies with honey then with vinegar.  It isn't imprisoned any were. You are making assumptions that don't actually seem to fit. The AI created the Reapers to for fill a purpose. To carry out it's only viable solution. The Citadel, the Relays, the scraps of tech left over from last harvest are all part of the elaborate set up for the harvest.

 

Its trapped about as much as I am "trapped" in jail during monopoly when I own an entire side of the board and keep raking in the money from my 4 houses and hotels I have on my property.

[gothpunkboy89]

 

What? Why wouldn't the Catalyst have control over the Citadel? Why farm it out to the Reapers? Remember it says the Citadel is part of it.

 

 

You said it leaves the Reapers to do their thing without being active. Make up your mind.
 

 

Your kidneys are a part of you. Do you have direct control over them? How about your liver or spleen? You and others fail to explain why the AI would need complete control of the Citadel.

 

 

I've never made any contradictions. You do because you are more interested in being right then actually reading what I post. I already used the manager example which best sets up the relationship between AI and Reapers. But if I need to repeat it because you will just ignore it again because again you seem more interested in me being wrong then actually paying attention I will.

 

The AI is the defacto leader and creator of the Reapers. When it created the Reapers and each new Reaper from each cycle it gives it a singular job to do. Because each Reaper is capable of their own thoughts they work together under Harbinger to complete that job each cycle. It doesn't have to do anything because it created the Reapers to do the work for it. How ever it is still the leader of the Reapers and if it so wanted to it could step in at any time and tell them to do what ever it wanted them to do.

 

It could if it so choose to have the Reapers perform Swan Lake in front of a terrified and bewildered Citadel population.

[Reorte]

Your kidneys are a part of you. Do you have direct control over them? How about your liver or spleen? You and others fail to explain why the AI would need complete control of the Citadel.

And what makes that an accurate analogy? Or means that not being able to control those parts of your body conciously would be a bad thing? But the big difference is that they need to be operating, continuously, and situations where they don't are ones that we'd certainly be dead with in the environment that we evolved in. Same with the heart, it's only during heart surgery that you ever would want to stop it, so no wonder no concious method has evolved, but with a machine with a similar function you probably would want it to be disabled, under control, and shifted to a backup whilst maintenance goes on, and if the machine is an AI then it makes sense to let it maintain itself

They're not systems that there's much need to conciously stop them. Things like the Citadel arms, though, only need opening or closing depends upon the specific circumstances of what's going on, just as your arms do. Even with some largely subconcious systems you can take control conciously when needed (just as well I can decide to hold my breath underwater).

[Reorte]

The AI is the defacto leader and creator of the Reapers. When it created the Reapers and each new Reaper from each cycle it gives it a singular job to do. Because each Reaper is capable of their own thoughts they work together under Harbinger to complete that job each cycle. It doesn't have to do anything because it created the Reapers to do the work for it. How ever it is still the leader of the Reapers and if it so wanted to it could step in at any time and tell them to do what ever it wanted them to do.

Only a complete and utter idiot would pointlessly cripple themselves that way. That's like being rich enough to have servants to do every little thing for you then chopping your hands off because you don't need them any more.

[Natureguy85]

All the Citadel is is just an elaborate trap. To lure the citizens of the galaxy to set up their galactic capital on it. Which would have the benefit of not only cutting off the head of the galactic civilization which would throw them into chaos. Perfect for Reapers to harvest first. Add on top of it because it would be the capital of the galactic civilizations it would contain tons of data about the species being harvested. Data that would be used both to help with the harvest and data that would be retained to be stored in a Reaper.

 

Keepers simply act as false sense of security to lull the species that find it into not paying attention. You catch more flies with honey then with vinegar.  It isn't imprisoned any were. You are making assumptions that don't actually seem to fit. The AI created the Reapers to for fill a purpose. To carry out it's only viable solution. The Citadel, the Relays, the scraps of tech left over from last harvest are all part of the elaborate set up for the harvest.

 

Blah, blah, blah. Vigil said all that, and apparently you don't have any problem with Vigil knowing that information. All of that is true but the Citadel still controls the Relays and for all those reasons is still a prime target, yet the Reapers don't take it immediately.

 

 

Your kidneys are a part of you. Do you have direct control over them? How about your liver or spleen? You and others fail to explain why the AI would need complete control of the Citadel.

 

I didn't build my body and it's functions are to keep me alive, not part of some other grand plan of mine. I didn't have to tell my brain to control those functions.  Analogy fail yet again. The reason the AI would control the Citadel is to open it and start the Harvest. It doesn't even need complete control, but just control of the most important function, though having control of the arms would also make sense.

 

More importantly, it is not up to me to explain why the AI would need or have control of the Citadel because it's just common sense. You must explain why it would not have such control.

 

 

 

I've never made any contradictions. You do because you are more interested in being right then actually reading what I post. I already used the manager example which best sets up the relationship between AI and Reapers. But if I need to repeat it because you will just ignore it again because again you seem more interested in me being wrong then actually paying attention I will.

 

The AI is the defacto leader and creator of the Reapers. When it created the Reapers and each new Reaper from each cycle it gives it a singular job to do. Because each Reaper is capable of their own thoughts they work together under Harbinger to complete that job each cycle. It doesn't have to do anything because it created the Reapers to do the work for it. How ever it is still the leader of the Reapers and if it so wanted to it could step in at any time and tell them to do what ever it wanted them to do.

 

It could if it so choose to have the Reapers perform Swan Lake in front of a terrified and bewildered Citadel population.

 

There is a difference between being in charge and controlling. You said the Catalyst gave the Reapers a task and set them about doing it while it sits back and watches. So taking Control and giving them a different directive, such as performing Swan Lake, would require active interference on the Catalyst's part, which you've been adamant that it doesn't do. So if the Catalyst can step in at any time and tell the Reapers to do something different, why can it not open the Citadel? 

 

 

 

 

And what makes that an accurate analogy?

 

Gothpunkboy89 understands analogies even less than he understands history or Mass Effect.

[gothpunkboy89]

And what makes that an accurate analogy? Or means that not being able to control those parts of your body conciously would be a bad thing? But the big difference is that they need to be operating, continuously, and situations where they don't are ones that we'd certainly be dead with in the environment that we evolved in. Same with the heart, it's only during heart surgery that you ever would want to stop it, so no wonder no concious method has evolved, but with a machine with a similar function you probably would want it to be disabled, under control, and shifted to a backup whilst maintenance goes on, and if the machine is an AI then it makes sense to let it maintain itself

They're not systems that there's much need to conciously stop them. Things like the Citadel arms, though, only need opening or closing depends upon the specific circumstances of what's going on, just as your arms do. Even with some largely subconcious systems you can take control conciously when needed (just as well I can decide to hold my breath underwater).

 

The AI has no need for conscious control over propulsion, arms opening, how much power is transferred to the arms. All it's needed are self contained in the bowls of the citadel. Kept operating thanks to the Keepers the only beings capable of reaching down into the bowls of the Citadel.

 

Only a complete and utter idiot would pointlessly cripple themselves that way. That's like being rich enough to have servants to do every little thing for you then chopping your hands off because you don't need them any more.

 

You are again looking at it from a human perspective anthropomorphizeing it. The AI never took direct part in the first harvest. It created it's own creations to harvest the first cycle creating Harbinger out of it. It never had hands to cut off to start with.  With that in mind it's place of residence is a near indestructible massive space station. It's location is deep in the bowls of it. So even if a curious person went exploring not only would the Keepers act as a form of defense. But it would keep them locked out of it. Wit the added bonus of being able to hide so they find nothing anyways.

[gothpunkboy89]

Blah, blah, blah. Vigil said all that, and apparently you don't have any problem with Vigil knowing that information. All of that is true but the Citadel still controls the Relays and for all those reasons is still a prime target, yet the Reapers don't take it immediately.

 

I didn't build my body and it's functions are to keep me alive, not part of some other grand plan of mine. I didn't have to tell my brain to control those functions.  Analogy fail yet again. The reason the AI would control the Citadel is to open it and start the Harvest. It doesn't even need complete control, but just control of the most important function, though having control of the arms would also make sense.

 

More importantly, it is not up to me to explain why the AI would need or have control of the Citadel because it's just common sense. You must explain why it would not have such control.

 

There is a difference between being in charge and controlling. You said the Catalyst gave the Reapers a task and set them about doing it while it sits back and watches. So taking Control and giving them a different directive, such as performing Swan Lake, would require active interference on the Catalyst's part, which you've been adamant that it doesn't do. So if the Catalyst can step in at any time and tell the Reapers to do something different, why can it not open the Citadel? 

 

 

Gothpunkboy89 understands analogies even less than he understands history or Mass Effect.

 

Well that and Sovergin who even before Vigil state that the Citadel and Mass Relays were created so that way organic life would develop on the paths they prefer. Which that final part about paths they prefer I do find suspect. I can't imagine there are many alternative ways to defy the basic laws of physics.

 

 

So you claim you don't need direct control over your kidneys because they are kept working by parts of you that you can't actually control. Yet you claim the AI needs direct control over every part of the Citadel. Why? Why even have the Citadel in space that it could be found? Why not have it near the Collector base in an area of space that can't be accessed? Even if we remove the AI from the equation why would the Reapers leave it out in the open? Even if we work under the assumption it is capable of pulling them directly from dark space into the galaxy on it's own. Why would they set it up to invite organics to live on it?

 

Your mind is a strange one because you seem to consistently try and make the story make even less logical sense. You must really really hate this game which is why I question why you are on here.

 

I already explained why the AI doesn't need full control of the Citadel. Several times you either didn't bother to read them or ignored them. You again laughably I might add attempt to alter what I actually said into something new. It is almost getting sad at this point. I really don't know how to put this any more simply for you to finally understand it.

 

The AI set the Reapers a task to do. But the AI is still the leader and they still answer to it. The AI can sit back and simply observe because it has the Reapers to take care of all the dirty work so to speak. It's main purpose is to finally solve the conflict issues between synthetic and organic. The Reapers are merely a fall back temporary solution. Passive observer a fairly good way particularly when your home is set up specifically to become a major galactic civilization point if not capital of galactic society. To study the evolution of organic life and maybe find a new alternative way to solve the organic v synthetic conflict.

[MrFob]

The AI has no need for conscious control over propulsion, arms opening, how much power is transferred to the arms. All it's needed are self contained in the bowls of the citadel. Kept operating thanks to the Keepers the only beings capable of reaching down into the bowls of the Citadel.

 

Hmmmm, I'd say that the protheans made it very clear that it does have that need.

 

The really weird thing is the timing of it all:

Leviathans build AI -> AI builds and controls reapers -> Reapers build Citadel -> AI apparently goes into Citadel (?)

 

If that's the timeline of things, why wouldn't the AI set itself up to be able to at least control the arms or the relays? The way I see it, the Citadel now needs 3 distinct computer systems:

1. The general control of the station (lights, power, life support, arms, etc.) that is accessible to almost everyone, also to the races that occupy the station

2. A secret system for controlling the relays (including the relay functionality of the Citadel itself), the reaper building mechanism and everything else that you may not want the organics to find out about.

3. A second secret system for the AI/catalyst.

 

 

The way I see it, in order for the catalyst not to have control over at least the relays, you'd have to deliberately put a barrier between the systems. I could understand isolating system 1 in order to prevent organics to find out about systems 2 and 3 but why put a barrier between 2 and 3 . It would actually require extra effort to prevent the catalyst from controlling anything. Why would you put in this effort?

[Reorte]

You are again looking at it from a human perspective anthropomorphizeing it. The AI never took direct part in the first harvest. It created it's own creations to harvest the first cycle creating Harbinger out of it. It never had hands to cut off to start with.  With that in mind it's place of residence is a near indestructible massive space station. It's location is deep in the bowls of it. So even if a curious person went exploring not only would the Keepers act as a form of defense. But it would keep them locked out of it. Wit the added bonus of being able to hide so they find nothing anyways.

No, I'm looking at it from the point of view of what makes sense, and building something that you've no direct control over when having direct control too, even if someone else is doing all the work almost all of the time, when it would pose no extra problems whatsoever to have such control, does not make sense. It must've had all sorts of mechanisms for it to have created the Reapers to begin with, e.g. its hands. I am not anthropomorphising it (and if I am then heaven knows what that makes your daft spleen and liver example).

It might not have needed exact control over every single motor but certainly not having control at a high level, well, makes the whole Reaper methodology look like it was designed by Heath Robinson.

[gothpunkboy89]

Hmmmm, I'd say that the protheans made it very clear that it does have that need.

 

The really weird thing is the timing of it all:

Leviathans build AI -> AI builds and controls reapers -> Reapers build Citadel -> AI apparently goes into Citadel (?)

 

If that's the timeline of things, why wouldn't the AI set itself up to be able to at least control the arms or the relays?

 

Were did the protheans make it very clear it does need to control anything?

 

AI still studies organic life during each cycle. Continuing to look for a way besides Reapers to solve the problem. A passive observer on the citadel would make a great spot to do that.  Think about it when we study animal behaviors we don't capture a few dozen chimps bring them to a zoo and watch them there. We go to them and sit back and observe them. Without taking any direct action with or against them.

[gothpunkboy89]

No, I'm looking at it from the point of view of what makes sense, and building something that you've no direct control over when having direct control too, even if someone else is doing all the work almost all of the time, when it would pose no extra problems whatsoever to have such control, does not make sense. It must've had all sorts of mechanisms for it to have created the Reapers to begin with, e.g. its hands. I am not anthropomorphising it (and if I am then heaven knows what that makes your daft spleen and liver example).

It might not have needed exact control over every single motor but certainly not having control at a high level, well, makes the whole Reaper methodology look like it was designed by Heath Robinson.

 

You are anthroporphising the AI. You are applying human characteristics to it.

 

Even working under the assumption that someone managed to alter the keeper signal and get in and close the arms permanently. That wouldn't stop the AI from being able to communicate with the Reapers. It certainly wouldn't stop the Reaper's ability to harvest the galaxy.

[MrFob]

Were did the protheans make it very clear it does need to control anything?

Uh, when they effectively screwed over the catalyst's / reapers rather fragile plan by muckiing up the keepers?

 

AI still studies organic life during each cycle. Continuing to look for a way besides Reapers to solve the problem. A passive observer on the citadel would make a great spot to do that.  Think about it when we study animal behaviors we don't capture a few dozen chimps bring them to a zoo and watch them there. We go to them and sit back and observe them. Without taking any direct action with or against them.

Sorry but the reapers (controlled by the catalyst) are anything but passive. They instigated the rachni wars for exa,ple, probably the most significant event in this cycle (and btw, that was before AIs ever even cropped up at all).

Besides, no one said that catalyst has to be active, what I was saying is that it's strange to put in extra effort when building the station that prevents the catalyst from taking control in an emergency - such as, say, the protheans fuzzing with the keepers.

Sovereign, a reaper, controlled by the catalyst, tried everything to rectify that issue from the outside after all. I bet the catalyst face-palmed pretty hard sitting in his little box in the Citadel without being able to do anything himself while he tried to make Sovereign fix the problem that was actually taking place just one self-built firewall away. So near and yet so far...

[Reorte]

You are anthroporphising the AI. You are applying human characteristics to it.

Using an analogy involving humans is not anthropomorphisation.
 

Even working under the assumption that someone managed to alter the keeper signal and get in and close the arms permanently. That wouldn't stop the AI from being able to communicate with the Reapers. It certainly wouldn't stop the Reaper's ability to harvest the galaxy.

It appeared that it certainly did stop them, or didn't you play ME3? Quite why is questionable, but that's the story we got. Good job as well, if it could've just had control we'd be stuffed, but of course why bother being able to do something itself when it's got minions that can be interfered with to do it for them? Still awaiting the downside of it having direct control plus those minions...

[Iakus]

The AI has no need for conscious control over propulsion, arms opening, how much power is transferred to the arms. All it's needed are self contained in the bowls of the citadel. Kept operating thanks to the Keepers the only beings capable of reaching down into the bowls of the Citadel.

 

The Catalyst raises the elevator to bring Shepard to it.

 

The Catalyst shuts off the Crucible if Shepard Refuses

 

The Shepalyst closes the Ward arms in Control.

 

Pretty good indications that the Catalyst does in fact have control of the Citadel.

[Reorte]

AI still studies organic life during each cycle. Continuing to look for a way besides Reapers to solve the problem. A passive observer on the citadel would make a great spot to do that.  Think about it when we study animal behaviors we don't capture a few dozen chimps bring them to a zoo and watch them there. We go to them and sit back and observe them. Without taking any direct action with or against them.

So you're watching those chimps, but something goes wrong and atangonises them, they notice you're there and come for you. Too bad you can't jump in the jeep and drive away, but you gave control for driving to Larry, who's sitting back at the hotel with his feet up, and the keys.

[gothpunkboy89]

Uh, when they effectively screwed over the reapers rather fragile plan by muckiing up the keepers?

Sorry but the reapers (controlled by the catalyst) are anything but passive. They instigated the rachni wars for exa,ple, probably the most significant event in this cycle (and btw, that was before AIs ever even cropped up at all).

Besides, no one said that catalyst has to be active, what I was saying is that it's strange to put in extra effort when building the station that prevents the catalyst from taking control in an emergency - such as, say, the protheans fuzzing with the keepers.

Sovereign, a reaper, controlled by the catalyst, tried everything to rectify that issue from the outside after all. I bet the catalyst face-palmed pretty hard sitting in his little box in the Citadel without being able to do anything himself while he tried to make Sovereign fix the problem that was actually taking place just one self-built firewall away. So near and yet so far...

 

They didn't really screw it over just delayed it. There is actually no proof the Reapers instigated the Rachni Wars. Dr. Bryson theorized that Leviathan might have had something to do with it. Though nothing ever really comes of it. There really is never an emergency that would require it to have full control of everything. The Citadel thanks to it's construction and ability to lock down on the quantum level like the relays is for all intents and purposes indestructible.

 

Even if a group managed to over ride all controls and lock the citadel down all that would do is ensure a slow steady death of those trapped inside. That is more shooting yourself in the foot then actually hurting the Reaper cause.  Why would it face palm? It's clearly studies organic life from each cycle. The altering of the signal to the keepers would be an interesting thing to study how organics would react to that.

 

You are acting as if the Reapers were the first, only and final option the AI ever thought up. Reapers were the last viable option to solve the problem and has been attempting to find other ways for millennia. While keeping the Reapers around because again only working solution even if it isn't the best. 

[Natureguy85]

Well that and Sovergin who even before Vigil state that the Citadel and Mass Relays were created so that way organic life would develop on the paths they prefer. Which that final part about paths they prefer I do find suspect. I can't imagine there are many alternative ways to defy the basic laws of physics.

 

Sovereign said they force progression the way they want. It's not even that there are multiple ways of creating the physics defying stuff, it's that they get it easily so they stop working on it or working on something else. When you invade, you know pretty well what technology the galaxy has.

 

I always use the "bugs life" example. Get the galaxy to value Eezo so they collect Eezo, then you come in and steal their Eezo. That would have made sense at least.

 

 

So you claim you don't need direct control over your kidneys because they are kept working by parts of you that you can't actually control. Yet you claim the AI needs direct control over every part of the Citadel. Why? Why even have the Citadel in space that it could be found? Why not have it near the Collector base in an area of space that can't be accessed? Even if we remove the AI from the equation why would the Reapers leave it out in the open? Even if we work under the assumption it is capable of pulling them directly from dark space into the galaxy on it's own. Why would they set it up to invite organics to live on it?

 

I never said the AI needs control over every part of the Citadel, but reading is a skill. I said it should control the Relay function and probably the arms. As Iakus points out, the Control cutscene implies it can control the arms.

Still, as I said, I didn't plan out my body or decide which functions I can and can not control. The Catalyst directed the construction of the Citadel for a specific purpose and you're suggesting that it deliberately left itself unable to use it's most crucial function.

 

What the hell is the rest about? You yourself have answered those questions. As Soverign and Vigil tell us, they want the galaxy to use it as a hub, a seat of government, and a rallying place for lots of ships. That has nothing to do with the Catalyst being able to control the Relay function.

 

 

 

Your mind is a strange one

 

Yeah, a rational one.

 

 

you seem to consistently try and make the story make even less logical sense. You must really really hate this game which is why I question why you are on here.

 

You wouldn't know logic if it bit you. We've been trying.  The funny part is that you find it more logical that the Catalyst has a more complicated backup plan than simply having control of one or two Citadel functions.

 

I hate the main plot they gave us from ME2 and 3 after the promise ME1 had. I hate the divebomb the Reapers took after how awesome Sovereign was. I still like the universe and the characters. "What could have been great" stings more than something that is just crap.

 

 

 

I already explained why the AI doesn't need full control of the Citadel. Several times you either didn't bother to read them or ignored them. You again laughably I might add attempt to alter what I actually said into something new. It is almost getting sad at this point. I really don't know how to put this any more simply for you to finally understand it.

 

No, you were just wrong.

 

 

 

 

The AI set the Reapers a task to do. But the AI is still the leader and they still answer to it. The AI can sit back and simply observe because it has the Reapers to take care of all the dirty work so to speak. It's main purpose is to finally solve the conflict issues between synthetic and organic. The Reapers are merely a fall back temporary solution. Passive observer a fairly good way particularly when your home is set up specifically to become a major galactic civilization point if not capital of galactic society. To study the evolution of organic life and maybe find a new alternative way to solve the organic v synthetic conflict.

 

The Catalyst being able to control the Relay function and arms in now way risks it being discovered. There is literally no logical reason for it to not have this ability. It makes sense for it to have the Reapers to do all the shooting, but not for it to depend on the squishies to open the Relay.

[gothpunkboy89]

Using an analogy involving humans is not anthropomorphisation.
 
It appeared that it certainly did stop them, or didn't you play ME3? Quite why is questionable, but that's the story we got. Good job as well, if it could've just had control we'd be stuffed, but of course why bother being able to do something itself when it's got minions that can be interfered with to do it for them? Still awaiting the downside of it having direct control plus those minions...

 

I was using an example. People seem to view the Citadel and the AI's body to to speak. Claiming it would need complete control over it since it is it's body. I pointed out organs in the human body that we do not have complete coneious control of. That isn't anthrooporphisiming it. That is drawing a parallel. Using another well known bit of information to expand on a point made.

 

It didn't stop anything because the Reapers were still capable of harvesting the cycle.  They out right ignored it for most of the harvest only grabbing it when they learned that the species of the galaxy thought it could be used to kill them.

 

 

The Catalyst raises the elevator to bring Shepard to it.

 

The Catalyst shuts off the Crucible if Shepard Refuses

 

The Shepalyst closes the Ward arms in Control.

 

Pretty good indications that the Catalyst does in fact have control of the Citadel.

 

 

The ability to operate an elevator doesn't equate to total control of the entire station. The closing of the arms after control ending is the only actual one you have me on showing it's ability to control the citadel at large. You got me there. I tip my hat to you.

 

My question for you is why would it need to exercises side control?

 

What is your worse case scenario that would require the AI to take control of the Citadel? I mean besides the obvious they are trying to throw something planet size at it and it needs to close up to avoid being destroyed.

 

Even if they over rode the Reaper signal and attempted to close the arms and hide inside from the Reapers. They would only last so long before supplies would run out. The Citadel is large but it couldn't contain the entire population of the galaxy. And it is hinted heavily the standard course is to attack the citadel first. The events in game is only possible because a few Protheans survived the harvest. Had Sovereign's attack been successful it would have undone the change the Protheans did. Returning things to the status quo.

 

Refuse ending is only implied to succeed because they out right defeated the Reapers. Not because they closed up the Citadel and never touched it. The Citadel is a tool. A massive repository of data collected by the AI and the Reapers over uncountable years. It is not the beginning and end of everything the Reapers have done. Even if the AI was destroyed it wouldn't stop the Reapers. They are still independent beings capable of thinking.  If your boss or manager quits/ is fired does the place you work at suddenly fall into chaos and people can't do anything without him/her telling you what to do?

 

No. And there isn't any information to back up that claim about the Reapers. Sovereign and Harbinger are shown to be able to act independently of the AI's direct control. Even the smaller Destroyer class ships are shown to be intelligent. You are really over hyping the Citadel's roll in the Reaper harvest process.

[MrFob]

They didn't really screw it over just delayed it.

That sentence would be true if Saren won in ME1, he didn't, so the repercussions are a bit more severe. If I choose destroy, I wipe the reapers out without them achieving anything.
 

Why would it face palm? It's clearly studies organic life from each cycle. The altering of the signal to the keepers would be an interesting thing to study how organics would react to that.

That doesn't really make that much sense to me. Our cycle didn't do anything special. Even with the delay we are still way behind the protheans, who were already building mass relays (and they didn't even make it to reaper form). Sovereign, Saren, Harbinger, etc., They all try all the time to nullify this mistake and re-enter into the cycles as quickly and efficiently as possible. Even when we dock the crucible, the reapers do everything to destroy it, harvest the species and continue the cycle. On the other hand, I see no indication whatsoever in favor of your hypothesis. I guess as a head canon that compensates for the fact that the writers hadn't come up with the catalyst by the time of ME1 yet, it works well enough though.

And again, this doesn't answer the question: Even if that is the case, why would the reapers/catalyst put in the extra effort to prevent the catalyst from taking control - if he wants - when building the Citadel?

 

The rest of you post was a bit disconnected, so I only answered the parts that were kinda relevant.

 

My question for you is why would it need to exercises side control?

Two pages back, the discussion centered around the question why the reapers didn't attack the Citadel first. My head canon is that in their worst case scenario, the inhabitants could close the arms and lock the reapers out for good. However, this only works if the Catalyst cannot just open them at will. If he can, the question remains, why didn't they take the Citadel right away, take control over the relay network and make the whole war a whole lot easier for themselves? Maybe they were studying how to beat organics without the Citadel, too?