3581 réponses à ce sujet

[Abedsbrother]

Again, they did not alter the keepers, they altered the signal (see my last post).

Not sure why some people say otherwise - this is clearly stated in the first game. 

 

I do agree that the keeper situation is just as convoluted though. Somehow the reapers built a station that had these maintenance workers and then they built it so that the keepers activate the relay when sent a signal though the station from the reapers. It's a bit of a mess. But at least in ME1 it is acknowledged that it's a convoluted setup. Vigil does speculate that the keepers evolved over time, which changed them in a way so that the reapers could no longer signal them directly. At least it's clear the writers thought about it back in the day.

The fact that the map of the Citadel Tower in ME1 is an outline of a Reaper indicates the writers did envision tying something back to the Citadel.

[Ieldra]

The fact that the map of the Citadel Tower in ME1 is an outline of a Reaper indicates the writers did envision tying something back to the Citadel.

???

[Norina]

???

Just passing by...and I happen to have this:

[Natureguy85]

Wait... how do you figure the prothean scientists were changing the signal? I thought the metaphor was that they were re-tuning the receivers.

 

Vigil states it plainly. The receivers are the Keepers. Sovereign sends a signal to the Citadel which then sends a signal to the Keepers. The Citadel no longer sends the right signal to the Keepers.

[Ieldra]

@Natureguy85:

I just the article by KitaSaturnyne you linked in your sig. Uh....listed like that the whole mess acquires a completely new epic level of messiness and nonsense....why the heck are we still talking about this?
If I read a book of that quality, I'd make it a point to never mention it, because such bad stories don't even deserve bad publicity.  

[Callidus Thorn]

I do agree that the keeper situation is just as convoluted though. Somehow the reapers built a station that had these maintenance workers and then they built it so that the keepers activate the relay when sent a signal though the station from the reapers. It's a bit of a mess. But at least in ME1 it is acknowledged that it's a convoluted setup. Vigil does speculate that the keepers evolved over time, which changed them in a way so that the reapers could no longer signal them directly. At least it's clear the writers thought about it back in the day.

By the time of ME3, they don't even bother to try anymore.

 

The Keepers were probably slaves of the Reapers. They first built the Reapers, then the Citadel. The thought of not using them might not have occurred to the Reapers.

 

As for them not being able to receive the signal directly, perhaps it's not a result of evolution, but the result of a species being left for who knows how long when indoctrinated?

[MrFob]

@Natureguy85:

I just the article by KitaSaturnyne you linked in your sig. Uh....listed like that the whole mess acquires a completely new epic level of messiness and nonsense....why the heck are we still talking about this?
If I read a book of that quality, I'd make it a point to never mention it, because such bad stories don't even deserve bad publicity.  

 

In a grotesque way, that is what makes it so worthy of discussion. As it is mentioned briefly in this article and as Shamus put it in the latest entry of his ME blog series, ME is somewhat schizophrenic in how it interweaves very nicely thought out plot elements and fairly deep characters and dialogues (at least for video game standards) with story telling blunders that are unique in their messy glory.

 

It's this combination that makes me stick with it. The good parts are enough to draw me back while the bad parts are annoying enough that I want to keep complaining about - or at least discussing - them.

If everything were bad, I wouldn't care enough to stick around, if everything were good, there wouldn't be much to say. It's this maddening combination that keeps us here. And we'll likely never escape.     

[Iakus]

Vigil states it plainly. The receivers are the Keepers. Sovereign sends a signal to the Citadel which then sends a signal to the Keepers. The Citadel no longer sends the right signal to the Keepers.

 

"The keepers are controlled by the Citadel.  Before each an invasion, a signal is sent through the station compelling the keepers to activate the Citadel relay.  After decades of feverish study, the scientists found a way to alter the signal.  Using the Conduit, they gained access to the Citadel and made the modifications.  This time, when Sovereign sent the signal to the Citadel, the keepers ignored it.  The Reapers are trapped in dark space."

[AlanC9]

Not sure why some people say otherwise - this is clearly stated in the first game.

Probably because everybody remembers the line about the Keepers ignoring the signal, and doesn't look back to the line about the signal itself being altered. I'd assumed that was sloppy writing myself. Why give the Keepers any signal, and why didn't the keepers fix the equipment?

But yeah, upon review, it says what it says.

I'm still not clear if this is a big issue. In both ME1 and ME3 we have prothean scientists able to sabotage mission-critical Citadel equipment, with the sabotage undetected, and, after detection, unrepaired.

[Natureguy85]

Probably because everybody remembers the line about the Keepers ignoring the signal, and doesn't look back to the line about the signal itself being altered. I'd assumed that was sloppy writing myself. Why give the Keepers any signal, and why didn't the keepers fix the equipment?

But yeah, upon review, it says what it says.

I'm still not clear if this is a big issue. In both ME1 and ME3 we have prothean scientists able to sabotage mission-critical Citadel equipment, with the sabotage undetected, and, after detection, unrepaired.

 

It makes sense without the Catalyst. If the Keepers only respond to the Citadel, they'd have to have some indication that something was wrong. It's not as if the Keepers are actively waiting for that signal to open the Relay. They simply respond once they get it.

[Ieldra]

In a grotesque way, that is what makes it so worthy of discussion. As it is mentioned briefly in this article and as Shamus put it in the latest entry of his ME blog series, ME is somewhat schizophrenic in how it interweaves very nicely thought out plot elements and fairly deep characters and dialogues (at least for video game standards) with story telling blunders that are unique in their messy glory.

 

It's this combination that makes me stick with it. The good parts are enough to draw me back while the bad parts are annoying enough that I want to keep complaining about - or at least discussing - them.

If everything were bad, I wouldn't care enough to stick around, if everything were good, there wouldn't be much to say. It's this maddening combination that keeps us here. And we'll likely never escape.   

You know, "It's a videogame" is no excuse for shoddy writing, and I don't give a story told through visual media any leeway for spreading, for instance, wrong science just because the writers couldn't be bothered to research the real stuff. Not if it touches central aspects of the plot.

 

I'm still here in the vain hope to gain some insights into the lead writers' minds. How the heck could anyone at the head of a project like this end up making such a mess? Also, why the heck did they reject all attempts to put things on firmer ground (as hinted by Chris L'Etoile in his blog)? It's as if they specifically didn't want an SF story but a fantasy story set in space and full of pseudo-religious and pseudo-philosophical nonsense that wouldn't even stand against the most superficial scrutiny. One of those things I felt as a betrayal.

[Monica21]

Just passing by...and I happen to have this:

OH MY GOD! That's actually really cool and I never noticed.

[KrrKs]

All this talk about the keepers and the signal got me thinking: "Why didn't Sovereign send the correct signal directly to the keepers, once in range? Thereby bypassing the citadel."
Ignoring a "Sovi is dumb and doesn't know the code", i looked a bit closer at the Keepers themselves.

Spoiler

I have a hard time judging it, but I'd estimate the antenna at their packpacks to be somewhere between 30cm and 1m long (any better estimates?).
This would put the carrier frequency used for the keeper commands in the UHF or VHF range.
While this does allow a rather good propagation characteristics (in atmosphere), and usually can be received inside buildings, they are weakened (and garbled) or blocked by structures.
So Sovereign could not send the signal from the outside as it would be blocked by the Citadel's outer hull. It had to utilize the Citadel's systems. (It also probably didn't know what exactly was messed up)
The Protheans obviously did not alter the citadel's 'keeper command system'-antennas. This change would have been detected by the keepers and likely be fixed without the need for an explicit order to do so. --At least if they work as (semi) independent as I think they do.
Secondly, there must be 'repeaters' for these commands all over the station, for the same reason Sovereign couldn't send the signal from the outside.

Considering that all other keeper functions seem to be working as intended ^tm, what the Protheans altered is likely a sort of central database entry for the relay signal.
The Catalyst also must have been unable to revert these changes or order the keepers to do so.

As for the 'different networks'. We know that the Arms can be controlled from the tower (from at least two different positions.)
Sovereign docking at the tower implies that the relay function is controlled from there, too.
I'd speculate that the 'Keeper control' is also placed somewhere in the tower. (Including the mentioned database, some form of control logic, and maybe one/few of the 'keeper breeder' installations)
The Catalyst also seems to be located in the tower.
This means that at least two, but more likely all of the four vital citadel's core systems are placed basically next to each other...

Is this something we can agree about before going back to arguing about what does/doesn't make sense with this setup?

[MrFob]

You know, "It's a videogame" is no excuse for shoddy writing, and I don't give a story told through visual media any leeway for spreading, for instance, wrong science just because the writers couldn't be bothered to research the real stuff. Not if it touches central aspects of the plot.

 

This is true of course and I'd be the first to applaud better writing in video games. I think the potential for new and entreating story telling experiences is beyond measure and hasn't even been touched at the surface yet (the medium is only about 40 years old after all).

 

That said, as of today, I do think most video game stories are shallow, badly thought out, full of wholes and serve mainly as a thin veil to hold the game mechanics together. That's what I meant when I said "for a video game", not how things could or should be IMO but how they unfortunately are. There is the odd exception every now and again (most of which then don't have great production values, which I want, too) but all in all, the state of story telling in video games is not great at this point IMO.

 

@KrrKs: I could also imagine that the protheans didn't alter the frequency of the signal but the content. If this content uses something like an encryption or a format, unique to the citadel (maybe in an effort to prevent organics from finding out about it, should they ever investigate the keepers) than that might explain why Sovereign wasn't able to send it directly. I can't see the Citadel blocking the signal very well, even if it is just good old fashioned radio. At least some keepers in the wards would have received it, if it really were blocked by structures. I agree the whole thing is strange but I do like Vigil's evolution hypothesis. We see a lot of strange things happening with life here on earth, which we cannot immediately find a logical reason for because in the process of adaptation, very small changes in the environment can lead to very complex and unexpected consequences for some species. Might be this happened to the keepers too over time.

 

The reapers may never have noticed because it always worked. Then one day, Sovy sends the signal and nothing happens. He'd probably go "WTF?"

[KrrKs]

Altering the content of the signal is actually what I meant*. I assume the keepers get new orders via their backpack antennas pretty regularly, formatted something like <Keeper or location or group identifier + task/ action code + additional data like position>. When most of the commands overheard by the citadel inhabitants turn out to be <keeper20, clean protean vat, deck 12> or <All Zakera-keepers, remove rubble, at level13>, you'd loose interest in these signals relatively fast. 

Reaper or Trap specific signals are likely only send when the Invasion begins, so even if the organics record an unknown signal, they couldn't do anything with that knowledge (at least up until the Illos scientist somehow got hold of this data and found out which signal was used to transmit the 'open relay' action).

 

My personal opinion/headcanon is that received radio strength inside the tower and maybe the presidium are likely not sufficient. If this is where the relay control is located, and the nearest keeper has to get there from the wards first, it means that  Sovereign docking and doing it itself is still faster.

 

* I'd say the keeper OS has some sort of command tables defining the action codes for each task. This table is then used by the actual program to construct the complete signal, together with the other information, at runtime. Altering just one is likely not sufficient, the protheans must have altered the table entry and all parts of the program referencing that code.

Modifié par KrrKs, 09 avril 2016 - 09:03 .

[Natureguy85]

All this talk about the keepers and the signal got me thinking: "Why didn't Sovereign send the correct signal directly to the keepers, once in range? Thereby bypassing the citadel."
Ignoring a "Sovi is dumb and doesn't know the code", i looked a bit closer at the Keepers themselves.

 

Vigil says the Keepers evolved to only respond to the Citadel itself.

[dorktainian]

Vigil says the Keepers evolved to only respond to the Citadel itself.

 

which literally makes them an example of the results of synthesis.  

[Ieldra]

which literally makes them an example of the results of synthesis.  

I don't see any connection at all.

[dorktainian]

I don't see any connection at all.

 

really?  they are a combination of both organic and synthetic components after all.

[Ieldra]

really?  they are a combination of both organic and synthetic components after all.

So is Shepard since ME2.

[dorktainian]

So is Shepard since ME2.

 

indeed 

[Ieldra]

indeed 

So what?

[gothpunkboy89]

Wait, how can you know any of that? Vigil is the only one to tell you and you said he can't be trusted.

Anyway, you're wrong again. Yes, ME1 showed that somebody needed to push a button but that was before we learned there is an AI onboard. Now needing a button push is stupid. The mere fact that they did it one way is not an argument against doing it another way. If there is a controlling AI on the station, there is no reason for it to not have control over the Relay function directly.

 

No Keepers need to be altered. Changing the signal is equivalent to your favorite radio station changing it's signal. Now when you tune in to the old frequency or amplitude, you won't hear the station anymore.. The Keepers are looking for a particular signal to open the Relay. If they get a different signal, they will act differently or not at all.

 

Why would the AI need to activate anything? You keep stating the AI's existence makes X or Y meaningless yet you fail to give a reason why it should act. 

 

Did the actions of the Protheans cause any damage or threat to the cycle? No just delayed it. So why act? The AI only showed it self to Shepard when it perceived the cycle was in danger of failing in future cycles and a new solution was needed. Hence why it didn't just let Shep bleed to death in the bowels of the Citadel. 

 

But lets go onto the keepers as you try to validate that. 12 scientist with limited rations of food were able to fundamentally alter how the Citadel works. Yet the previous thousands of years of Protheans ruling from the Citadel they were unable to even basically understand what it was? You do realize that actually makes the whole thing a metric ton worse right? Even ignoring the fact things like the Relays having build in self repair programs to repair any damage they may sustain during the thousands of years of drift between cycles. That the Citadel as a massive relay linked to dark space that the ability to alter the signal would be done so easily. And that there is no way for any sort of self correcting program to exist and return it to previous set up. Something even the basic Geth can do. Hell my laptop can restore programs from back ups.  And in a day and age now I can get a message on my phone that someone is trying to log into my MMORPG account on my smart phone. The Reapers didn't think to add a similar set up to alert their vanguard just in case someone was trying to tamper with things?

 

If the Citadel is so important and the signal is the key to using the citadel then why isn't there quadruple back up systems? Why isn't the Reaper tech out in spades in this area? Why doesn't the second it gets messed with the doors don't shut tight sealing them into die? Or it sends every Keeper on the Citadel into a frenzy to kill who ever is messing with it?

 

Why would such a massivly important part have less security then your local Mc Donald's free wifi?

[corkyspetals]

the whole mess acquires a completely new epic level of messiness and nonsense....
If I read a book of that quality, I'd make it a point to never mention it, because such bad stories don't even deserve bad publicity.  

 

Can I point out that these 3 games were not written as one stand-alone work, but as 3 separate pieces.  In 2007 nobody new for certain that ME3 would be made. There are inconsistencies, plotholes and mistakes in everything from the Star Wars movies to the LOTR novels.   Maybe every tv series and novel series. There's a very long list of "bad stories".

[angol fear]

Can I point out that these 3 games were not written as one stand-alone work, but as 3 separate pieces. In 2007 nobody new for certain that ME3 would be made. There are inconsistencies, plotholes and mistakes in everything from the Star Wars movies to the LOTR novels. Maybe every tv series and novel series. There's a very long list of "bad stories".

Shakespeare's Hamlet is also known for its inconsistencies. You are right there is a very long list " bad stories".