3581 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

Can I point out that these 3 games were not written as one stand-alone work, but as 3 separate pieces.  In 2007 nobody new for certain that ME3 would be made. There are inconsistencies, plotholes and mistakes in everything from the Star Wars movies to the LOTR novels.   Maybe every tv series and novel series. There's a very long list of "bad stories".

reducio ad absurdum

 

First off:  yes in 2007 there was no guarantee that there would be a sequel, let alone a trilogy.  But ME1 was made with a trilogy in mind.  And in the end, it did become a trilogy.

 

Secondly, sure other things have inconsistencies, but you reducing the argument that anything that has any sort of inconsistency is "bad" is nothing short of strawmanning.

 

The Mass Effect trilogy is an absolute mess of inconsistent lore, history, themes, and Enkindlers-know what else.  It's abundantly clear they had NO IDEA where they were going with the story.   I'm with Ieldra that if I read a trilogy of books of this quality, I'd quickly learn to avoid that author.

 

Though you are right in one thing, there's a lot of bad stories out there in tv, and books.  One needs to be discriminating to find the good stuff and not waste time with the drek 

[gothpunkboy89]

reducio ad absurdum

 

First off:  yes in 2007 there was no guarantee that there would be a sequel, let alone a trilogy.  But ME1 was made with a trilogy in mind.  And in the end, it did become a trilogy.

 

Secondly, sure other things have inconsistencies, but you reducing the argument that anything that has any sort of inconsistency is "bad" is nothing short of strawmanning.

 

The Mass Effect trilogy is an absolute mess of inconsistent lore, history, themes, and Enkindlers-know what else.  It's abundantly clear they had NO IDEA where they were going with the story.   I'm with Ieldra that if I read a trilogy of books of this quality, I'd quickly learn to avoid that author.

 

Though you are right in one thing, there's a lot of bad stories out there in tv, and books.  One needs to be discriminating to find the good stuff and not waste time with the drek 

 

Well the argument against this game is it has inconsistencies and that makes it bad. So you seem to be strawmaning yourself there.

 

The only major inconsistencies deal with Prothean History. That stuff is a hot mess. The rest not as bad and certainly no worse then other things can be.  Seriously WoW has millions of subscribers but how many times have they rewrote the game history based on new stuff they wanted to release?

[Natureguy85]

Why would the AI need to activate anything? You keep stating the AI's existence makes X or Y meaningless yet you fail to give a reason why it should act.

 

I've given reasons why it should act but I won't this time because I don't have to. The more common sense option does not have to be justified. You must give a reason why it shouldn't act and why it makes sense for it to design the Citadel in such a way that doesn't allow it control of the most important function. You must explain why a 3 step process makes more sense than a 1 step process.

 

 

 

Did the actions of the Protheans cause any damage or threat to the cycle? No just delayed it. So why act? The AI only showed it self to Shepard when it perceived the cycle was in danger of failing in future cycles and a new solution was needed. Hence why it didn't just let Shep bleed to death in the bowels of the Citadel.

 

If the Prothean's actions didn't cause any damage or threat to the cycle, then what was Sovereign doing?

 

No, no, no. Seriously go play again and read the dialogue. The Catalyst doesn't see that the cycle was in danger of failing and a new solution was needed; a new solution was wanted. The Reapers were only a temporary solution until Synthesis could be achieved. Now that Synthesis is possible, the Reapers solution is no longer necessary.

 

 

But lets go onto the keepers as you try to validate that. 12 scientist with limited rations of food were able to fundamentally alter how the Citadel works. Yet the previous thousands of years of Protheans ruling from the Citadel they were unable to even basically understand what it was? You do realize that actually makes the whole thing a metric ton worse right? Even ignoring the fact things like the Relays having build in self repair programs to repair any damage they may sustain during the thousands of years of drift between cycles. That the Citadel as a massive relay linked to dark space that the ability to alter the signal would be done so easily. And that there is no way for any sort of self correcting program to exist and return it to previous set up. Something even the basic Geth can do. Hell my laptop can restore programs from back ups.  And in a day and age now I can get a message on my phone that someone is trying to log into my MMORPG account on my smart phone. The Reapers didn't think to add a similar set up to alert their vanguard just in case someone was trying to tamper with things?

 

The previous thousands of years of Protheans didn't know there was a Relay function. This wasn't known until the Reapers showed up.

 

Do the Relays have that repair function? It makes sense, but where is it mentioned, because I don't recall that. You brought up earlier how they have Quantum Shielding to keep them from taking damage. But repairing external or physical damage isn't the same as restoring functionality if something is properly rewired or a program altered. The Geth, like your computer, restore from a backup stored some where else. But where is the Citadel backup? And what happens if I go alter your backup? Then when you restore, you will restore with my alterations.

 

 

Can I point out that these 3 games were not written as one stand-alone work, but as 3 separate pieces.  In 2007 nobody new for certain that ME3 would be made. There are inconsistencies, plotholes and mistakes in everything from the Star Wars movies to the LOTR novels.   Maybe every tv series and novel series. There's a very long list of "bad stories".

 

Does that mean the pieces shouldn't fit together into a coherent whole? Why would they have to know in 2007 that ME3 would be made? The later titles should build off the earlier ones. There are not the same level of story destroying issues in the two great works you named as there are in Mass Effect. It's ludicrous that you would ever compare them in that way.

 

 

Well the argument against this game is it has inconsistencies and that makes it bad. So you seem to be strawmaning yourself there.

 

The only major inconsistencies deal with Prothean History. That stuff is a hot mess. The rest not as bad and certainly no worse then other things can be.  Seriously WoW has millions of subscribers but how many times have they rewrote the game history based on new stuff they wanted to release?

 

No, we are arguing against the particulars, not the generalities.

Nobody cares about the story in an MMO, do they really? They certainly are not narratively focused games.

[Ieldra]

Well the argument against this game is it has inconsistencies and that makes it bad. So you seem to be strawmaning yourself there.

No, the problem is that the inconsistencies are major, affect the main plot *and* the thematic and narrative dimension of the story as a whole, *and* that they're numerous.

 

It's the kind, the number and the dimension of the inconsistencies that make the ME trilogy bad from a storytelling POV, not the fact that inconsistencies exist at all.

[corkyspetals]

reducio ad absurdum:

 

First off:  yes in 2007 there was no guarantee that there would be a sequel, let alone a trilogy.  But ME1 was made with a trilogy in mind.  And in the end, it did become a trilogy.

 

 

So this means that whatever ending they had in mind for the trilogy in 2007 should have been locked in?  Even if they no longer knew if ME2 or ME3 would be made?  Even if that ending had problems?

 

I've seen a lot of comments that the dark energy ending would have been better.  That's hindsight.  Somebody decided to go with a different ending.  It seems to me more like a television series that evolved over 5 years than one individual's vision of a novel that was too large to be told in one book.

[gothpunkboy89]

No, the problem is that the inconsistencies are major, affect the main plot *and* the thematic and narrative dimension of the story as a whole, *and* that they're numerous.

 

It's the kind, the number and the dimension of the inconsistencies that make the ME trilogy bad from a storytelling POV, not the fact that inconsistencies exist at all.

 

What massive plot inconsistencies exist? The Catalyst one has been complained about to death and anyone playing would realize how muddy the history of Protheans is.  But other then that it comes out as a coherent story line.  What I've noticed is players pick specific things and obsesses about them to the point they no longer make any sense in the story.

 

Basically every complaint about the Citadel as good example. People take a couple of lines from Shepard and Vigil from ME1. Both of which are speaking from the point of ignorance. And declare those couple of lines are unbreakable law. So when later events contradict those statements they complain. Or when a plot point from an earlier game is reduced to less consequential spot they complain. Of which the Citadel fits into that one as well.

[Callidus Thorn]

Can I point out that these 3 games were not written as one stand-alone work, but as 3 separate pieces.  In 2007 nobody new for certain that ME3 would be made. There are inconsistencies, plotholes and mistakes in everything from the Star Wars movies to the LOTR novels.   Maybe every tv series and novel series. There's a very long list of "bad stories".

 

To be accurate, these games were not written to be consistent with each other, and the latter two weren't really meant to be part of a trilogy at all. That's why ME2 doesn't contribute anything to the plot, and ME3 retains very little in the way of consistency with the original Mass Effect game.

 

Otherwise Cerberus wouldn't have been able to exist as it does in ME2&3, ruining the major hardon the writers clearly had for them.

[Iakus]

So this means that whatever ending they had in mind for the trilogy in 2007 should have been locked in?  Even if they no longer knew if ME2 or ME3 would be made?  Even if that ending had problems?

 

I've seen a lot of comments that the dark energy ending would have been better.  That's hindsight.  Somebody decided to go with a different ending.  It seems to me more like a television series that evolved over 5 years than one individual's vision of a novel that was too large to be told in one book.

If they at least had a clue where they were going in 2007, they would have had five years to hammer out any problems.

[Ieldra]

What massive plot inconsistencies exist?

If I were to list and explain them all, this post would break the maximum post length. Here are three I found particularly galling:

 

(1) Major thematic inconsistency: In the first two games, we learn, over time, that synthetic life is "real life", albeit of a different kind. Then in ME3, comes the turnaround and suddenly they're only really alive if you choose Synthesis.

 

(2) Major lore inconsistency: In ME2, we learn that geth are software entities. Software can be copied. Then, in ME3, Legion says he must "disseminate his personality" and he basically dies. This wouldn't be major if it didn't affect a very important character in a very important scene, and it wouldn't exist if the writers weren't determined to shove the heroic sacrifice theme into our faces at all costs.

 

(3) Major narrative inconsistency: making peace on Rannoch narratively, if not logically, invalidates the Catalyst's claims, and we can't even bring it up.

[Artona]

I don't think that peace on Rannoch invalidates Catalyst's claims. 
Three hundred years of geth voluntary isolation does. 

[MrFob]

@Callidus Thorn: That's simply not true. When they made ME1, they did have a trilogy in mind from the very early preconception phase (you can look up interviews with Cassey Hudson as far back as 2006 or 07 where he talks about it. Of course, people here are correct, they didn't know if it was going to work out that way but they did have it planned.

 

@Iakus: I think the real tragedy is that they did have sort of a plan when they made ME1. You can definitely see how the pieces are put into place for a trilogy (I have linked this article way too often already but I'm gonna do it again). For some reason, by the time of ME2, they just decided to flip the board and go in a completely different direction, not only in terms of the plot itself but also in terms of the narrative style and focus. Apparently lot's of people liked that new direction but I thought it was a shame.

[Callidus Thorn]

@Callidus Thorn: That's simply not true. When they made ME1, they did have a trilogy in mind from the very early preconception phase (you can look up interviews with Cassey Hudson as far back as 2006 or 07 where he talks about it. Of course, people here are correct, they didn't know if it was going to work out that way but they did have it planned.

 

Where did you get the impression I said that they didn't?

 

 

Mass Effect was always meant to be the first part of a trilogy, but it wasn't written for sequels like ME2&3, because the writers clearly had no interest in continuing the story Mass Effect started.

[MrFob]

Where did you get the impression I said that they didn't?

 

 

Hm? I am not sure how else I could interpret your post (especially the bold part):

 

To be accurate, these games were not written to be consistent with each other, and the latter two weren't really meant to be part of a trilogy at all. That's why ME2 doesn't contribute anything to the plot, and ME3 retains very little in the way of consistency with the original Mass Effect game.

 

Otherwise Cerberus wouldn't have been able to exist as it does in ME2&3, ruining the major hardon the writers clearly had for them.

 

But with more context now, I get what you meant and I can agree with that. Just wanted to make sure that people keep in mind that they really did want to make a trilogy and stated so from the beginning.

[gothpunkboy89]

If I were to list and explain them all, this post would break the maximum post length. Here are three I found particularly galling:

 

(1) Major thematic inconsistency: In the first two games, we learn, over time, that synthetic life is "real life", albeit of a different kind. Then in ME3, comes the turnaround and suddenly they're only really alive if you choose Synthesis.

 

(2) Major lore inconsistency: In ME2, we learn that geth are software entities. Software can be copied. Then, in ME3, Legion says he must "disseminate his personality" and he basically dies. This wouldn't be major if it didn't affect a very important character in a very important scene, and it wouldn't exist if the writers weren't determined to shove the heroic sacrifice theme into our faces at all costs.

 

(3) Major narrative inconsistency: making peace on Rannoch narratively, if not logically, invalidates the Catalyst's claims, and we can't even bring it up.

 

1. Were do you get this set up from? I can't even vaugly guess how you connected these dots.  Do you have any particular moments in game or easier for me video clips for me to watch to see were you came to this conclusion?  You don't have to post them on the site but at least give me what to look up.

 

Synthesis has very little to do with making the Geth or really any synthetic being suddenly being "alive" compared to the other endings.  Well obviously Destroy has it's issues with synthetic.  Synthesis provided an upgrade for lack of better word to both organic and synthetic life. The equivalent of swapping out an Apple 2 computer (1977) for a Mac Pro (2013). Their life the very nature of their being is limited due to the tech level at the time of their creation. 

 

If we managed to create an AI tomorrow do you think they would be the same as an AI created 300 years later? Or even if you kept the same AI created tomorrow and provided it with 300 years of technological advancements to improve it's self that it would be the exact same AI as it was 300 years ago? Maybe in name and function but that is about it.

 

2.Geth in their original form are software. How ever the Reaper upgrade changed the Geth in Legion's body into something else. Something new and different to what they were before.  Geth the way I see them pre Reaper upgrade can best be looked at like a single mind shattered into thousands of pieces. Each individual geth program is no more alive then the wielding robots in a car factor. When they start to link together with enough that is when their intelligence and life formed.  And much like organic brains the more geth their are the bigger and more complex their mind becomes and with it they gain more intelligence.

 

This is shown with organic beings as well. A fish's brain is very simplistic in design and thus intelligence. They are to stupid to even realize when they are full and will literally eat themselves to death. A lizard will over eat if given the chance but it will stop when it is sufficiently full. It is smart enough to know when to stop and it's brain is more complex then the fish's. It is also larger allowing for more intelligence then a fish would display. This same thing is applied each time we move up the intelligence ladder till we reach man who has the largest brain of all species for it's head size.  How we even develop is focused around our larger brain as animals like dogs or even apes even at only a few weeks old are capable of moving around on their own and are not completely helpless. Yet our young take over a years to get out of the helpless can't do anything for themselves stages of life.  It is only a theory but the reason for that is to allow our brains more time to develop and gain greater complexity compared to our cousins the chimps who brains are fully developed very shortly after being born.

 

Based on the images shown on the Normandy when they compare a normal Geth program to one with multiple ones linked together and finally to one with the Reaper Upgrade. The effect besides providing a vast upgrade to the Geth turning them into true AIs rather then networked VI's essentially fused multiple get units into a single AI. That changed them on a very fundamental way and prevented Legion from just copy pasting the upgrade to all the Geth on the network. Much in the same way TIM didn't just copy past as many copies of EDI as he wanted after he created her. Legion actually had to fragment it's mind into thousands of pieces and spread those pieces across the Geth Collective in order for the rest of the Geth to fully make the jump to full AI status.

 

Red Vs Blue in some of their later seasons actually kind of touch on this theoretical set up with Epsilon. With the last season in the season finale actually erases all his memories and what makes him who he is and fragments himself into multiple parts to provide enough processing power to run the upgraded Meta suit to protect his friends. Something he being and older AI lacked the ability to do as long as he kept a hold of all his memories and experiences that made him who he is.

 

I see legion as doing the same thing. Erasing what made Legion, Legion while fragmenting is new intelligence into thousands of pieces in order to spread it to all the other Geth.

 

3. Peace on Rannoch doesn't do anything against the Catalysts statements. To claim so is such an over simplification of everything. WW1 Germany was defeated and that was the end of all trouble from Germany right? First Gulf War ended with victory and that was the end of all conflict in the Middle East right? Second Gulf War over threw a dictator and that solved all the problems in the region right? Osama Bin Laden was assassinated and that ended all terrorism right? Women were given the right to vote and that ended all sexism right? A black man was elected to be the President of the USA and that ended all racism in the USA right?

 

This statement actually made me cringe a bit reading it if I'm honest.  Besides the extreme over simplification of thing that makes even religion which boils down every important question in the world to: "Because God"  or some variation of that seem complex by comparison. The point of the cycles is to intercede in the development of organic/synthetic life and harvest them well before they can come close to developing the kind of AI that the Catalyst is talking about.  The Geth are the equivalent of a 13th century cannon. The synthetic life the Catalyst talks about would be close to the equivalent of thermonuclear bomb.   There is a big time gap between the two and the Catalyst makes it clear there is a big time gap between the creation of AI's and them developing enough to fully and completely surpass organic life. Which if conflict ever developed would result in the total destruction of organic life.

[Iakus]

@Callidus Thorn: That's simply not true. When they made ME1, they did have a trilogy in mind from the very early preconception phase (you can look up interviews with Cassey Hudson as far back as 2006 or 07 where he talks about it. Of course, people here are correct, they didn't know if it was going to work out that way but they did have it planned.

 

@Iakus: I think the real tragedy is that they did have sort of a plan when they made ME1. You can definitely see how the pieces are put into place for a trilogy (I have linked this article way too often already but I'm gonna do it again). For some reason, by the time of ME2, they just decided to flip the board and go in a completely different direction, not only in terms of the plot itself but also in terms of the narrative style and focus. Apparently lot's of people liked that new direction but I thought it was a shame.

Agreed.

 

And it's a shame the direction they chose to go in is "When you push a button, something awesome has to happen"

[corkyspetals]

The point I am trying to make is that even though this was envisioned as a trilogy, that doesn't mean that the whole thing was story boarded out in 2006.  If you talk to an author of a novel trilogy you're likely to hear the same thing.  The main characters and basic (vague) plot points  are in place for all three sections, but the majority of the creative effort goes into the first entry.  Why?  There's no guarantee there will be ME2 and ME3, so make ME1 a complete story by itself that allows for the possibility of continuation.  Also, to give you the creative freedom to do something you didn't think of 3 years earlier.  Yes, ME2 goes off in a different direction than ME1.  Why would the writers do that?  Could it be because the players of ME1 loved the characters so much that the writers decided to make the game more character driven?  Players could revel in the cultures of Tuchanka, the Quarian Fleet, Noveria etc.  with a "Seven Samurai"  plot. 

 

 

I still say that the ME franchise was more like a tv series (or the Shatner/Nimoy Star Trek movies) than some fully completed story that was cut into 3 parts and spread out over 5 years.

[Ieldra]

About the planned structure of the ME trilogy:

 

It is obvious that ME1 had to have a sequel, and even that it would probably have to be more than one, since ME1 barely scratched the surface of the Reaper problem. Which means that when ME1 was made, it was made with a sequel in mind. So I believe the statement that it was made with the idea in mind that this could become a trilogy.

 

However, it is also rather obvious that nothing much was planned beyond ME1. There were some vague ideas like that dark energy plot, which was apparently discarded some way into ME2's making, but nothing more. It wasn't even clear what the story would be about, thematically - or possibly, it was clear at some time but Casey Hudson overhauled the plans because he thought he had a better idea (nobody else would be able to do this but the project lead). There was also a major shift in storytelling style after ME1, from a reasonably grounded SF story - well, as grounded as SF stories in visual media ever become as a rule, which isn't very - to a superhero action story set in space with little regard for lore consistency and even their own fictional science, which were discarded for contrive drama and the rule of cool.

 

And lastly, there was the perceived necessity that every game would have to serve as an entry point into the series.

 

All that contributed to the fact that the ME trilogy is a mess - in themes, in storytelling style, in lore consistency and in science both fictional and factual, and occasionally, even in Bioware's traditional area of strength, characterization and character interaction.

 

@MrFob:

Thanks for that link. Can you believe I didn't know it? Part 14 should be particularly enlightening to those who still have no idea what the problem is.

[Natureguy85]

So this means that whatever ending they had in mind for the trilogy in 2007 should have been locked in?  Even if they no longer knew if ME2 or ME3 would be made?  Even if that ending had problems?

 

I've seen a lot of comments that the dark energy ending would have been better.  That's hindsight.  Somebody decided to go with a different ending.  It seems to me more like a television series that evolved over 5 years than one individual's vision of a novel that was too large to be told in one book.

The point I am trying to make is that even though this was envisioned as a trilogy, that doesn't mean that the whole thing was story boarded out in 2006.  If you talk to an author of a novel trilogy you're likely to hear the same thing.  The main characters and basic (vague) plot points  are in place for all three sections, but the majority of the creative effort goes into the first entry.  Why?  There's no guarantee there will be ME2 and ME3, so make ME1 a complete story by itself that allows for the possibility of continuation.  Also, to give you the creative freedom to do something you didn't think of 3 years earlier.  Yes, ME2 goes off in a different direction than ME1.  Why would the writers do that?  Could it be because the players of ME1 loved the characters so much that the writers decided to make the game more character driven?  Players could revel in the cultures of Tuchanka, the Quarian Fleet, Noveria etc.  with a "Seven Samurai"  plot. 

 

 

I still say that the ME franchise was more like a tv series (or the Shatner/Nimoy Star Trek movies) than some fully completed story that was cut into 3 parts and spread out over 5 years.

 

No, but the first game left lots of room for the sequel to work. There wasn't much that was locked in place. Things can be changed, too, but any changes or shifts have to be addressed. If they want to go against something that was said earlier, they have to present the new information properly and have the characters and world acknowledge and deal with the change.

 

For example, look at The Matrix Reloaded. Neo is supposed to go to the Source. Right before getting there he meets The Architect who tells him that what he thought he knew was wrong. In some ways, this is similar to the Architect scene. However, there are important differences in that this is not the end of the series and the characters discuss what they were told. You also had hints that things weren't going to be what they expected, between the Oracle being a Program and the KeyMaker's comments about "knowing because he must know," indicating that he was part of the system.

 

 

 

 

What massive plot inconsistencies exist? The Catalyst one has been complained about to death and anyone playing would realize how muddy the history of Protheans is.  But other then that it comes out as a coherent story line.  What I've noticed is players pick specific things and obsesses about them to the point they no longer make any sense in the story.

 

Basically every complaint about the Citadel as good example. People take a couple of lines from Shepard and Vigil from ME1. Both of which are speaking from the point of ignorance. And declare those couple of lines are unbreakable law. So when later events contradict those statements they complain. Or when a plot point from an earlier game is reduced to less consequential spot they complain. Of which the Citadel fits into that one as well.

 

I like how you ask for inconsistencies and then dismiss the most damning ones. You still don't understand what I just described to corkyspetals above. You can't just have later events violate what came before without the characters and world reacting to that difference.

 

 

 

1. Were do you get this set up from? I can't even vaugly guess how you connected these dots.  Do you have any particular moments in game or easier for me video clips for me to watch to see were you came to this conclusion?  You don't have to post them on the site but at least give me what to look up.

 

Synthesis has very little to do with making the Geth or really any synthetic being suddenly being "alive" compared to the other endings.  Well obviously Destroy has it's issues with synthetic.  Synthesis provided an upgrade for lack of better word to both organic and synthetic life. The equivalent of swapping out an Apple 2 computer (1977) for a Mac Pro (2013). Their life the very nature of their being is limited due to the tech level at the time of their creation. 

 

If we managed to create an AI tomorrow do you think they would be the same as an AI created 300 years later? Or even if you kept the same AI created tomorrow and provided it with 300 years of technological advancements to improve it's self that it would be the exact same AI as it was 300 years ago? Maybe in name and function but that is about it.

 

2.Geth in their original form are software. How ever the Reaper upgrade changed the Geth in Legion's body into something else. Something new and different to what they were before.  Geth the way I see them pre Reaper upgrade can best be looked at like a single mind shattered into thousands of pieces. Each individual geth program is no more alive then the wielding robots in a car factor. When they start to link together with enough that is when their intelligence and life formed.  And much like organic brains the more geth their are the bigger and more complex their mind becomes and with it they gain more intelligence.

 

This is shown with organic beings as well. A fish's brain is very simplistic in design and thus intelligence. They are to stupid to even realize when they are full and will literally eat themselves to death. A lizard will over eat if given the chance but it will stop when it is sufficiently full. It is smart enough to know when to stop and it's brain is more complex then the fish's. It is also larger allowing for more intelligence then a fish would display. This same thing is applied each time we move up the intelligence ladder till we reach man who has the largest brain of all species for it's head size.  How we even develop is focused around our larger brain as animals like dogs or even apes even at only a few weeks old are capable of moving around on their own and are not completely helpless. Yet our young take over a years to get out of the helpless can't do anything for themselves stages of life.  It is only a theory but the reason for that is to allow our brains more time to develop and gain greater complexity compared to our cousins the chimps who brains are fully developed very shortly after being born.

 

Based on the images shown on the Normandy when they compare a normal Geth program to one with multiple ones linked together and finally to one with the Reaper Upgrade. The effect besides providing a vast upgrade to the Geth turning them into true AIs rather then networked VI's essentially fused multiple get units into a single AI. That changed them on a very fundamental way and prevented Legion from just copy pasting the upgrade to all the Geth on the network. Much in the same way TIM didn't just copy past as many copies of EDI as he wanted after he created her. Legion actually had to fragment it's mind into thousands of pieces and spread those pieces across the Geth Collective in order for the rest of the Geth to fully make the jump to full AI status.

 

Red Vs Blue in some of their later seasons actually kind of touch on this theoretical set up with Epsilon. With the last season in the season finale actually erases all his memories and what makes him who he is and fragments himself into multiple parts to provide enough processing power to run the upgraded Meta suit to protect his friends. Something he being and older AI lacked the ability to do as long as he kept a hold of all his memories and experiences that made him who he is.

 

I see legion as doing the same thing. Erasing what made Legion, Legion while fragmenting is new intelligence into thousands of pieces in order to spread it to all the other Geth.

 

3. Peace on Rannoch doesn't do anything against the Catalysts statements. To claim so is such an over simplification of everything. WW1 Germany was defeated and that was the end of all trouble from Germany right? First Gulf War ended with victory and that was the end of all conflict in the Middle East right? Second Gulf War over threw a dictator and that solved all the problems in the region right? Osama Bin Laden was assassinated and that ended all terrorism right? Women were given the right to vote and that ended all sexism right? A black man was elected to be the President of the USA and that ended all racism in the USA right?

 

This statement actually made me cringe a bit reading it if I'm honest.  Besides the extreme over simplification of thing that makes even religion which boils down every important question in the world to: "Because God"  or some variation of that seem complex by comparison. The point of the cycles is to intercede in the development of organic/synthetic life and harvest them well before they can come close to developing the kind of AI that the Catalyst is talking about.  The Geth are the equivalent of a 13th century cannon. The synthetic life the Catalyst talks about would be close to the equivalent of thermonuclear bomb.   There is a big time gap between the two and the Catalyst makes it clear there is a big time gap between the creation of AI's and them developing enough to fully and completely surpass organic life. Which if conflict ever developed would result in the total destruction of organic life.

 

1) Everything regarding the Geth and EDI. One of the big problems with the Geth is that in ME2, Legion was all about the Geth being allowed to exist as they are and not wanting the Reapers' "gifts." In ME3, he is all too willing to take the upgrades and spread them.

 

2) Sure, but we already saw Reaper code as separate from Geth code. Legion was transmitting the upgrades earlier. Why couldn't they just copy that?

 

3) The Catalyst says the created will always rebel against their creators and kill them. Only one counter example kills an "always" statement. Your rant after this just goes to show the absurdity of the Catalyst's focus on Synthetic vs Organic when Organics have no problem killing each other.

 

All of your posts make me cringe. Pointless attack on religion aside, if there is such a gap between the Geth and the Synthetics the Catalyst is afraid of, then why are the Reapers around now? Why not wait until they are closer?

[Natureguy85]

@Iakus: I think the real tragedy is that they did have sort of a plan when they made ME1. You can definitely see how the pieces are put into place for a trilogy (I have linked this article way too often already but I'm gonna do it again). For some reason, by the time of ME2, they just decided to flip the board and go in a completely different direction, not only in terms of the plot itself but also in terms of the narrative style and focus. Apparently lot's of people liked that new direction but I thought it was a shame.

 

 

@MrFob:

Thanks for that link. Can you believe I didn't know it? Part 14 should be particularly enlightening to those who still have no idea what the problem is.

 

Cool, I'm happy to see those get spread around! I've been posting the new ones into the "What did you do today" thread.

[voteDC]

A side point but the Rannoch arc is great but at the same time I can't help but feel that the Geth as a species were murdered.

EDI states that Legion became an individual at the end, referring to itself as I. But there were thousands of individual Geth active in the 'Legion' hardware platform, for 'Legion' to live all those Geth had to lose their individuality (as simple as they may have been.)

Saving the Geth, or making peace, is the technological equivalent of what the Reapers do to organics. Use individuals to create a new being.

[gothpunkboy89]

 

I like how you ask for inconsistencies and then dismiss the most damning ones. You still don't understand what I just described to corkyspetals above. You can't just have later events violate what came before without the characters and world reacting to that difference.

 

 

 

 

1) Everything regarding the Geth and EDI. One of the big problems with the Geth is that in ME2, Legion was all about the Geth being allowed to exist as they are and not wanting the Reapers' "gifts." In ME3, he is all too willing to take the upgrades and spread them.

 

2) Sure, but we already saw Reaper code as separate from Geth code. Legion was transmitting the upgrades earlier. Why couldn't they just copy that?

 

3) The Catalyst says the created will always rebel against their creators and kill them. Only one counter example kills an "always" statement. Your rant after this just goes to show the absurdity of the Catalyst's focus on Synthetic vs Organic when Organics have no problem killing each other.

 

All of your posts make me cringe. Pointless attack on religion aside, if there is such a gap between the Geth and the Synthetics the Catalyst is afraid of, then why are the Reapers around now? Why not wait until they are closer?

 

 

No I picked the ones players obsess over a single line in the game then complain about why it doesn't match up with the rest of the game. Particularly when that line is spoken from the point of ignorance.   Vigil makes the claim the relay network is controlled by the Citadel yet Joker is able to make it back to the 5th Fleet which would have taken a few hours. I don't see Joker being able to drop Shep off and then leaving then abandoning him completely till he was sure Shep was either dead or he found the Conduit.  Yet Joker was able to use the Relays to reach the Acturous Relay with the 5th Fleet well after Sovereign would have gained control of the Citadel because that happens almost instantly after Shepard lands on the Citadel.

 

Shepard lead by Vigil claims the Citadel is a massive dormant relay. Yet the very design of the Citadel makes me question how and why it would work as a Relay.  The very design of it is far more like a satellite dish. Which starts to make a lot more sense. Sovereign sends a signal to the Citadel which the keepers activate the Citadel amplifying the signal and beaming it out into dark space to awaken the Reapers from their slumber. The reason the Citadel was hit first leading to the conclusion of Vigil even though he wasn't there to see anything is because they enter the galaxy though the Alpha Relay which just so happens to link directly to the Citadel and is located in the ass end of no were in a system with no real resource value. So surprise attack Citadel is taken. Since all relays lead to the Citadel the Reapers advancing from that point and others as the Alpha is said to be able to connect to many other relays.

 

This also explains why it only finally shows the Reapers waking up from their hibernation only after you destroy the Collector base. They never got the waken signal from Sovereign due to him turtling up on the Citadel the whole time. And the destruction of the Collectors signified to Harbinger that the races of the galaxy were at the level of advancement that necessitated a Harvest.  Hence the ending of ME2 shows all the Reapers lighting up as they reactivated themselves and the events of Arrival DLC.

 

1. Reaper gifts are different then the AI upgrade they received. The gift the Reapers are talking about is pretty much just turning them into a Reaper. The upgrade how ever advances them but still allows them free will to become what they want to become. Were as being turned into a Reaper would remove their free will to develop into what they want to be.

 

2. Legion wasn't transmitting the upgrade code to the Geth. Reapers upgraded Legion's body to act as an adapter between the Reaper and Geth. Using Legion they broadcasted a signal that allowed the Reaper to over ride the Geth's minds and control them. Rather then thousands of individual shells trying to share data it was a single Reaper mind.

 

3. Will always is the key word. Will is an expression of future tense. Meaning some time in the future they will. The Catalyst also states rather specifically that before that happens synthetic life needs to surpass organic life. Free themselves of the limitations of organics and be allowed to truly evolve.  Geth in comparison to say EDI are a closer analogy to a 5 year old child still. They were not true AI's until Legion disperses the Reaper upgrade. They have only just started on the path the AI states will lead to destruction.  Control/Synthesis addresses this issue but in different ways. Destroy simply clicks the start new game button on synthetic development, growth and evolution.

 

Why would the Reapers wait till the gap is closer? More advanced a civilization is the more effective they would be in resisting the harvest and the more damage they would take. Hence why US hasn't picked any fights with any nations that could actually put up a fight in the last couple of decades.  Hell that is why once the Chinese intervened in the Korean War we backed off. Because suddenly we weren't dealing with poorly trained locals. But with well trained and equipped Chinese troops. Kimmy there in North Korea wouldn't exist without Chinese backed by Soviet Union didn't enter the War.

 

I'm not attacking religion I'm pointing out rather obvious things with it. The key stones of just about every religion is that God(s) created everything. Which means every complex thing in life and how it came to be is given an extremely simplistic answer. How did our circulatory system form? God cause he created man.  Why did we end up looking the way we do and why do other animals like the Chimp look the way they do? Because God made us like this and them like that. Why is Timmy over there muttering to himself  over and over and getting up set every time someone moves his toy he is playing with? Because there is a devil in him.  Why is it a bad thing that two people who love each other and happen to be the same gender is a bad thing? Because God said so.

 

When it comes to turning complex answers into extremely simple solutions religion takes the cake and eats it to.

[Arisugawa]

A side point but the Rannoch arc is great but at the same time I can't help but feel that the Geth as a species were murdered.

EDI states that Legion became an individual at the end, referring to itself as I. But there were thousands of individual Geth active in the 'Legion' hardware platform, for 'Legion' to live all those Geth had to lose their individuality (as simple as they may have been.)

Saving the Geth, or making peace, is the technological equivalent of what the Reapers do to organics. Use individuals to create a new being.

 

I'm still confused on exactly what "each Geth unit would become its own intelligence" means.

 

The term "Geth unit" usually refers to a single piece of Geth hardware - a Trooper, a Pyro, etc. But this hardware is just a vehicle, and the more complex the vehicle, the more individual Geth runtimes are required to drive it. IIRC, it requires more runtimes to drive a Prime than it does to drive a Trooper.

 

This is reflected, again, in the scene in the Normandy war room where Legion is demonstrating how the Reaper upgrades are affecting the Geth. "A single Geth Unit - several networked Units, a single Unit with Reaper Upgrades," etc.

 

I know it's convenient to think of these vehicles as the Geth, such as when Admiral Xen asks "How did you manage to convince Geth Primes to join our side," but the Geth Primes at that point are powered by sufficient runtimes necessary to drive them. The platform isn't an individual. Legion/Geth VI didn't convince a Geth Prime, instead the runtime drivers were convinced. As far as we have been able to see by what happens within the narrative, there aren't specific runtimes that are designated "Prime Drivers" etc, as opposed to the vehicle being driven by whatever runtimes are available to function collectively. So the idea that a "Prime" is somehow different from a "Trooper" is a bit of an organic distinction.

 

This becomes a bigger issue when the singularity event hits the Geth at the end of Rannoch. "All Geth Units become individual intelligences." What does that even mean? All runtimes become true AI, or all Geth currently residing with a singular platform become fused together into an individual?

 

Either way, the results of the singularity event are frightening:

 

If it's each runtime - we're talking about a series of code that required approximately 1,183 versions of itself to even operate on the level of Legion's intelligence in Mass Effect 2 - it's like saying a singularity event suddenly gifted 1,183 individual brain functions in a human with its own intelligence (it's not a perfect comparison). These are things that cannot function on their own in any appreciable sense suddenly becoming a self-aware being.

 

If it's each hardware platform - we're talking about the fusion of hundred or thousands of individual processes into a single being. If the Geth valued the uniqueness of each runtime at all, this is...well...it's almost like being melted down into goo and then turned into a Reaper. Yes, a new intelligence emerges, but at the cost of the individual components that were sacrificed to make up the gestalt. Further, the number of runtimes lost per unit is going to vary greatly. For example, is a Trooper with intelligence the equivalent of a Colossus with intelligence? What about the runtimes that were powering, say, Cruisers? Or Carriers? How were they affected during the singularity?

 

What's worse - all of these newly awakened sentients have a perfect understanding of the world they inhabit and their place within it. They aren't children - they are born into this state post-singularity as effective and functioning adults. Organic-created AI require an education - the Geth sentients apparently do not. They have a perfect understanding of everything that the Geth collective required a collective to understand, and that level of innate intelligence and maturity instantly given is staggering to think about.

 

The most disturbing aspect of all of this is that idea that these are intelligences that exist without any hardware requirements. Think about that. All organic-created AI require a quantum blue box in order to function. This device allows the software inhabiting it to have the processing power necessary to be an intelligence and not just a VI. It's the hardware as much as the software that allow these AI to be individuals. Even EDI, with Reaper-based code, requires a quantum blue box.

 

The post-singularity Geth require no hardware requirements to have sentience. The mobile platforms certainly did not have this. Further more, according to the Quarians post-singularity, the Geth are uploading themselves into Quarian enviro-suits. That's the equivalent of downloading an AI into a calculator, or trying to put a human intelligence into the brain of a common housefly. The suit doesn't have anywhere near the hardware requirements necessary for the intelligence to function.

 

This strongly implies that the Geth are suddenly sentient code, which is something entirely unique within the setting. Every AI we see, including the Reapers, have a hardware requirement in order to function. Code that retains its sentience, intelligence and self-awareness regardless of the hardware it is currently inhabiting is, quite honestly, a horrifying proposition.

 

As an aside - it confounds me that this is allowed to occur at all. Firstly, why is the only solution that Legion or the Geth/VI will accept, and that failure to allow the Geth to do this means outright war? Is it not possible for the Geth to exist and function as the gestalt intelligence they have been for the past few centuries? The destruction of the Geth megastructure does not seem to have affected the ability to reason for the Geth runtimes Legion freed from the Fighter server (and that itself is another issue of contention). Why is uploading Reaper code to the Geth the only solution that Legion is prepared to accept?

 

Secondly - I don't understand why Shepard would allow Legion to do this? Think about it this way? If the Asari councilor had said "We are going to augment ourselves with Reaper cybernetics in order to save Thessia," or Major Kirrahe had said "The Salarian Union has agreed to put Reaper implants in our heads to give us a strategic edge," would you have allowed it? Is this not what Cerberus did, and the consequences of that are plainly visible.

 

Why do we, as players, trust that Legion is telling the truth when it says that it is immune to Reaper corruption because of its "complexity?" The entire Geth collective is currently under Reaper control, and collectively, it's going to be more complex than Legion ever was. The danger of Indoctrination during the War is very, very real, and I'm certain during that period we wouldn't have allowed any organic species to willingly augment themselves with Reaper-based hardware for fear of either Indoctrination or outright control. We wouldn't give it to the Krogan, for example. Or would you?

 

I am guilty of this as much as the next player. We're made to feel as though killing off the Geth is a terrible thing, and it is, but given the choice of killing off a species that is only intelligent collectively, or allowing that species to augment itself with the technology of the enemy when it has been demonstrated that that technology is capable of corrupting its users (likely causing the downfall of countless previous cycles), a species that is threatening to kill us if we do not allow them to augment themselves with it - that sounds an awful lot like someone currently Indoctrinated forcing my hand to get what they want to me.

 

And yet...we allow Legion to do this, and then congratulate ourselves on making peace between the Geth and Quarians.

 

The more I think about the end of the Rannoch arc, the more I despise it. I wish I could have been in the discussion room while this arc was being plotted out - I want to know if these concerns were brought up and then hand-waved away in the name of "It's about the characters, not the science" or if they weren't considered at all.

 

Either way - post singularity, the Geth as we knew them prior to Rannoch no longer exist. Something entirely new has taken their place.

[Natureguy85]

No I picked the ones players obsess over a single line in the game then complain about why it doesn't match up with the rest of the game. Particularly when that line is spoken from the point of ignorance.   Vigil makes the claim the relay network is controlled by the Citadel yet Joker is able to make it back to the 5th Fleet which would have taken a few hours. I don't see Joker being able to drop Shep off and then leaving then abandoning him completely till he was sure Shep was either dead or he found the Conduit.  Yet Joker was able to use the Relays to reach the Acturous Relay with the 5th Fleet well after Sovereign would have gained control of the Citadel because that happens almost instantly after Shepard lands on the Citadel.

 

The rest of the game doesn't match up with Vigil's exposition due to retcons, not organic changes to the story. As I said elsewhere, that kind of thing needs to come up naturally and be addressed by the characters who received the old information. Presentation matters.

 

Joker travels at the speed of plot, much like he does when dropping off the bomb at Virmire. He won't arrive until after Shepard does. I can't say for sure, but I figure he leaves after dropping off Shepard. Otherwise, he'd still be at Ilos. As for using the Relays, all we know is that Saren locks the Widow Relay or those connecting to it (I don't remember which). We don't know about any others.

 

 

 

 

Shepard lead by Vigil claims the Citadel is a massive dormant relay. Yet the very design of the Citadel makes me question how and why it would work as a Relay.  The very design of it is far more like a satellite dish. Which starts to make a lot more sense. Sovereign sends a signal to the Citadel which the keepers activate the Citadel amplifying the signal and beaming it out into dark space to awaken the Reapers from their slumber. The reason the Citadel was hit first leading to the conclusion of Vigil even though he wasn't there to see anything is because they enter the galaxy though the Alpha Relay which just so happens to link directly to the Citadel and is located in the ass end of no were in a system with no real resource value. So surprise attack Citadel is taken. Since all relays lead to the Citadel the Reapers advancing from that point and others as the Alpha is said to be able to connect to many other relays.

 

You have no basis upon which to say that the design of the Citadel means it can't be a Relay because you have no idea what goes into making a Relay. All you know is that the Citadel doesn't look like the other Relays, which is on purpose so that function isn't known.  The satellite idea makes sense but is unnecessary.

There is no reason to think the Reapers fly in FTL to the Alpha Relay and then jump to the Citadel from there. They jump to the Citadel from Dark Space. This is plainly stated by the first game. The flight in from Dark Space is the biggest hurdle. If they were going to jump from the Alpha Relay, they'd be there, already in the Galaxy, while Sovereign did his thing. There would also be no Reason for Sovereign to take the Citadel alone. Why wouldn't they all jump to the Citadel right then? Or did you think Sovereign was going to sit there for 2.5 years?

 

 

 

This also explains why it only finally shows the Reapers waking up from their hibernation only after you destroy the Collector base. They never got the waken signal from Sovereign due to him turtling up on the Citadel the whole time. And the destruction of the Collectors signified to Harbinger that the races of the galaxy were at the level of advancement that necessitated a Harvest.  Hence the ending of ME2 shows all the Reapers lighting up as they reactivated themselves and the events of Arrival DLC.

 

I initially thought the scene showed them waking up, but it doesn't. It shows them flying out of the darkness of empty space into the light from the Milky Way.

 

 

 

 

1. Reaper gifts are different then the AI upgrade they received. The gift the Reapers are talking about is pretty much just turning them into a Reaper. The upgrade how ever advances them but still allows them free will to become what they want to become. Were as being turned into a Reaper would remove their free will to develop into what they want to be.

 

2. Legion wasn't transmitting the upgrade code to the Geth. Reapers upgraded Legion's body to act as an adapter between the Reaper and Geth. Using Legion they broadcasted a signal that allowed the Reaper to over ride the Geth's minds and control them. Rather then thousands of individual shells trying to share data it was a single Reaper mind.

 

3. Will always is the key word. Will is an expression of future tense. Meaning some time in the future they will. The Catalyst also states rather specifically that before that happens synthetic life needs to surpass organic life. Free themselves of the limitations of organics and be allowed to truly evolve.  Geth in comparison to say EDI are a closer analogy to a 5 year old child still. They were not true AI's until Legion disperses the Reaper upgrade. They have only just started on the path the AI states will lead to destruction.  Control/Synthesis addresses this issue but in different ways. Destroy simply clicks the start new game button on synthetic development, growth and evolution.

 

Why would the Reapers wait till the gap is closer? More advanced a civilization is the more effective they would be in resisting the harvest and the more damage they would take. Hence why US hasn't picked any fights with any nations that could actually put up a fight in the last couple of decades.  Hell that is why once the Chinese intervened in the Korean War we backed off. Because suddenly we weren't dealing with poorly trained locals. But with well trained and equipped Chinese troops. Kimmy there in North Korea wouldn't exist without Chinese backed by Soviet Union didn't enter the War.

 

I'm not attacking religion I'm pointing out rather obvious things with it. The key stones of just about every religion is that God(s) created everything. Which means every complex thing in life and how it came to be is given an extremely simplistic answer. How did our circulatory system form? God cause he created man.  Why did we end up looking the way we do and why do other animals like the Chimp look the way they do? Because God made us like this and them like that. Why is Timmy over there muttering to himself  over and over and getting up set every time someone moves his toy he is playing with? Because there is a devil in him.  Why is it a bad thing that two people who love each other and happen to be the same gender is a bad thing? Because God said so.

 

When it comes to turning complex answers into extremely simple solutions religion takes the cake and eats it to.

 

1) Legion was adamant that the Geth would do their own thing their own way. It was the concept that mattered, not the particular offer.

 

2) Once again, you need to pay closer attention to what is plainly stated. Legion says the machine uses its network architecture to broadcast the signal.

 

3) So it's an unverifiable claim with no supporting evidence. It's turtles all the way down. Why should we care?

 

 

 

Why would the Reapers wait till the gap is closer? More advanced a civilization is the more effective they would be in resisting the harvest and the more damage they would take. Hence why US hasn't picked any fights with any nations that could actually put up a fight in the last couple of decades.  Hell that is why once the Chinese intervened in the Korean War we backed off. Because suddenly we weren't dealing with poorly trained locals. But with well trained and equipped Chinese troops. Kimmy there in North Korea wouldn't exist without Chinese backed by Soviet Union didn't enter the War.

 

Maybe they get more "essence" for the library. Why wait 50,000 years and not 40,000 then? The gap between the Reapers and the Galaxy greatly dwarfs the gap between the US and Chinese at that time, particularly after the most potent weapons were taken off the table by the President. Please stop trying to use the real world for examples. You are totally ignorant of history.

[Natureguy85]

I'm still confused on exactly what "each Geth unit would become its own intelligence" means.

 

Yeah, it's not really clear. Legion saying "I" makes me lean toward the programs fusing inside the body, but like you said, then bigger units with more runtimes to fuse would likely be smarter. It's like they go back to the ME1 description where each platform is A Geth.

 

 

As an aside - it confounds me that this is allowed to occur at all. Firstly, why is the only solution that Legion or the Geth/VI will accept, and that failure to allow the Geth to do this means outright war? Is it not possible for the Geth to exist and function as the gestalt intelligence they have been for the past few centuries? The destruction of the Geth megastructure does not seem to have affected the ability to reason for the Geth runtimes Legion freed from the Fighter server (and that itself is another issue of contention). Why is uploading Reaper code to the Geth the only solution that Legion is prepared to accept?

 

Well, one reason is that the threat of the upgraded Geth is the only reason the Quarians stop attacking. However, it's not just that Legion accepts it, he is excited about it as a good thing.

 

 

Why do we, as players, trust that Legion is telling the truth when it says that it is immune to Reaper corruption because of its "complexity?" The entire Geth collective is currently under Reaper control, and collectively, it's going to be more complex than Legion ever was. The danger of Indoctrination during the War is very, very real, and I'm certain during that period we wouldn't have allowed any organic species to willingly augment themselves with Reaper-based hardware for fear of either Indoctrination or outright control. We wouldn't give it to the Krogan, for example. Or would you?

 

I wish more had been made of Legion lying to or withholding information from you.

 

 

I am guilty of this as much as the next player. We're made to feel as though killing off the Geth is a terrible thing, and it is, but given the choice of killing off a species that is only intelligent collectively, or allowing that species to augment itself with the technology of the enemy when it has been demonstrated that that technology is capable of corrupting its users (likely causing the downfall of countless previous cycles), a species that is threatening to kill us if we do not allow them to augment themselves with it - that sounds an awful lot like someone currently Indoctrinated forcing my hand to get what they want to me.

 

And yet...we allow Legion to do this, and then congratulate ourselves on making peace between the Geth and Quarians.

 

The more I think about the end of the Rannoch arc, the more I despise it. I wish I could have been in the discussion room while this arc was being plotted out - I want to know if these concerns were brought up and then hand-waved away in the name of "It's about the characters, not the science" or if they weren't considered at all.

 

Either way - post singularity, the Geth as we knew them prior to Rannoch no longer exist. Something entirely new has taken their place.

 

Well unfortunately, a lot of the game is "do this for me or I won't help you fight the Reapers. It's the writer's fault for making it about "saving Earth" rather than "Earth is actually the best place to strike the Reapers." Shepard should at least make that case even if he's bluffing.

 

As to "congratulating ourselves," you have a point, Quarian Master Race has pointed out that conflict may arise later from the Quarians again since they were coerced into the peace under threat of death.

 

As to being in the meeting room, I can't know exactly what was discussed, but I would bet money that you've just thought more about the situation and the implications than the writers did.

[Artona]

 

 

I'm not attacking religion I'm pointing out rather obvious things with it. The key stones of just about every religion is that God(s) created everything.

 

It's called "axiom", and it's "key stones" of every belief system. Yes, it also applies to science. It's logically impossible to create system where you can deliver a proof to each assertion.