3588 réponses à ce sujet

[Reorte]

I agree. I would just add that to expect a "masterpiece" people to know what is a masterpiece. People here have shown many time that they don't know : they can't define it, they can't accept that masterpieces don't follow rules and they will also deny what some very basic knowledge will support : most of the time, masterpieces are not popular (because they break rules that then change because of these masterpiece that changed the structures, the writing. With time they can become popular when the "rules" are changed because of the influence of the masterpiece)!

They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.

[Shepard_Commander11]

The thing for me is there was really no way an ending can live up to such a great franchise. For the previous 99.9% of the time I played the series, I couldn't get enough. And to me, that's what really matters. 

Also, the Citadel DLC at least helped.

[Natureguy85]

I'd say you feel they botched it because you didn't like it.

 

Yeah, I didn't like it so I analyzed why and saw that they botched it.

 

 

You may feel they botched it, but the OP, myself, and others feel they did an excellent job on it.

 

That's fine. You're wrong for many reasons outlined here and elsewhere. You can still like it, but it's not good.

[correctamundo]

They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.

 

Can't argue with that =D.

[correctamundo]

Yeah, I didn't like it so I analyzed why and saw that they botched it.

 

Hmm, well I got into character, closed my eyes and felt the Sheps hurt, exhaustion, confusion, anger and resolve. Franco understood his duty, he signed up for it years ago and had others make that sacrifice along the way. Whether or not the Catalyst made absolute sense was irrelevant. So he armed the crucible and destroyed the reapers. During the end titles I hade the same feeling I had when Lev Nikolajevitj went back to Schneiders clinic or when Frodo left Middle earth. Massive.

[Ithurael]

<snip> You can still like it, but it's not good.

 

Enjoyable == Competently made is a mistake some seem to make (I even made it a few times in my youth). However, one's enjoyment from a product relating to the competence of that products creation makes as much sense as believing Fast Food is four star quality healthy food.

 

A great example at least in my experience is that I like - or enjoy - Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen. It is stupid, it is so very very stupid. But my god, if I just turn my brain off and marvel at the stupidity matched with the effects, it is very enjoyable. Michael Bay does not care for many scripts or characters or even plot...but there is something he can do better than any director out there...and that is film explosions. And I will be damned if someone says otherwise.

 

Same goes for The Room. This is a personal favorite of mine. I love this movie SO damn much just for how much fun it is to watch with friends MST3K style. My only hope is that one day we could have a version of The Room with Full Director Commentary through the whole film...my god that would be...just great. However, while I still enjoyed it I understand it was not very competently produced.

 

Just because something is enjoyable does not instantly equate it to being a masterpiece or competently made - it certainly doesn't bar it from criticism either. A masterpiece - by definition - is something that shows mastery of skill or workmanship in a given trade. Given what we know about writing and delivering a cohesive and competent narrative, ME3's ending does very much fail to meet the bar. People can still enjoy it - hell if i get really drunk and watch it with friends we love to pick it apart and laugh at it.

 

The ending shouldn't really sour the series TOO much. I mean with the EC it is like, what, 15-20 mins of "EH, that was dumb", on top of over 100 hrs of really intriguing content. I still recommend the ME series, but I put greater emphasis on ME1-2 for atmosphere and SciFi and only cite ME3 as having the most solid foundation in the shooting aspect and some characters.

[AlanC9]

A great example at least in my experience is that I like - or enjoy - Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen. It is stupid, it is so very very stupid. But my god, if I just turn my brain off and marvel at the stupidity matched with the effects, it is very enjoyable. Michael Bay does not care for many scripts or characters or even plot...but there is something he can do better than any director out there...and that is film explosions. And I will be damned if someone says otherwise.

[Ithurael]

I don't say this much - if at all - but I love you AlanC9

 

and...just because I spoil you:

[rossler]

That's fine. You're wrong for many reasons outlined here and elsewhere. You can still like it, but it's not good.

 

That's your opinion.

[Reorte]

Can't argue with that =D.

Alas I can't claim it as mine (I'd heard it somewhere once, a bit of Googling gives it as a Carl Sagan quote).

[Natureguy85]

That's your opinion.

Only insofar as the standards of quality writing are the collective opinion of human culture.

[Vanilka]

Enjoyable == Competently made is a mistake some seem to make (I even made it a few times in my youth). However, one's enjoyment from a product relating to the competence of that products creation makes as much sense as believing Fast Food is four star quality healthy food.

 

A great example at least in my experience is that I like - or enjoy - Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen. It is stupid, it is so very very stupid. But my god, if I just turn my brain off and marvel at the stupidity matched with the effects, it is very enjoyable. Michael Bay does not care for many scripts or characters or even plot...but there is something he can do better than any director out there...and that is film explosions. And I will be damned if someone says otherwise.

 

Same goes for The Room. This is a personal favorite of mine. I love this movie SO damn much just for how much fun it is to watch with friends MST3K style. My only hope is that one day we could have a version of The Room with Full Director Commentary through the whole film...my god that would be...just great. However, while I still enjoyed it I understand it was not very competently produced.

 

Just because something is enjoyable does not instantly equate it to being a masterpiece or competently made - it certainly doesn't bar it from criticism either. A masterpiece - by definition - is something that shows mastery of skill or workmanship in a given trade. Given what we know about writing and delivering a cohesive and competent narrative, ME3's ending does very much fail to meet the bar. People can still enjoy it - hell if i get really drunk and watch it with friends we love to pick it apart and laugh at it.

 

The ending shouldn't really sour the series TOO much. I mean with the EC it is like, what, 15-20 mins of "EH, that was dumb", on top of over 100 hrs of really intriguing content. I still recommend the ME series, but I put greater emphasis on ME1-2 for atmosphere and SciFi and only cite ME3 as having the most solid foundation in the shooting aspect and some characters.

 

I feel the same about ME2's Reaper baby. I like that goddamn thing, okay? I thought it was an interesting and creepy twist. I didn't really think about it overmuch. I just had my fun with it. After I read the criticism it got in both reviews and here on the forums, I've got to say that it's completely justified. That doesn't stop me from having fun with it. And liking it doesn't stop me from admitting that, yeah, it's pretty dumb in the context of the franchise and also might be seen as a rip off.

 

The Citadel DLC is a huge pile of light-hearted fanservice that fits nowhere into ME3's narrative and it generally doesn't make a whole lot of sense considering that millions are dying in a galaxy wide extinction event while Shepard parties and goes on dates. What the hell is that doing in a game about the end of the galaxy as we know it? The thing is, I still love the silly thing and find it a lot of fun, in spite of how ridiculous and cringeworthy it might be. Because you can enjoy things AND admit they might not be perfect.

[angol fear]

Except that nobody said that it was perfect...

[Vanilka]

Except that nobody said that it was perfect...

 

It's just a figure of speech. Something you, of all people, should understand.

[gothpunkboy89]

It's just a figure of speech. Something you, of all people, should understand.

 

And yet the near constant complaint is that because it isn't perfect it is bad. So figure of speech that many use literally. Demanding the game be perfect to be good.

[Monica21]

And yet the near constant complaint is that because it isn't perfect it is bad. So figure of speech that many use literally. Demanding the game be perfect to be good.

No one is saying that.

[Vanilka]

And yet the near constant complaint is that because it isn't perfect it is bad. So figure of speech that many use literally. Demanding the game be perfect to be good.

 

What Monica said. Nobody's complained it is not perfect. That's not people's problem with it. If you think otherwise, you'll have to quote the posts you mean where people demand the ending be flawless, because I've read the entire thread and I sure haven't seen any. Wanting it to be good isn't the same as wanting it to be flawless. And, honestly, I find it slightly ironic that the same person (Not talking about you, just to be clear.) that demands we do not take the ending at face value takes a fairly commonly thrown around phrase completely literally. And what I think is even worse is that some people are lurking here until they can finally find that single word or phrase they can grab just to try and dismiss what you're saying. They don't even argue with the whole post. Just that small cluster of letters, as if it had any weight in this discussion.

 

So I repeat: It was not meant to be taken literally and I've never asked for the games to be perfect. I know that is unrealistic. I hope I've made myself clear enough on the matter.

[rossler]

One man's trash is another man's treasure.

[Monica21]

One man's trash is another man's treasure.

Are we just throwing around meaningless idioms now? Because this topic is quite the hot potato, isn't it? A lot of folks jumping on the bandwagon. Not letting sleeping dogs lie.

So let's let the cat out of the bag. I like Mass Effect. Love it, actually. Love the whole series. I think it's amazing. I still play it, and actions speak louder than words, right? I think though, that despite its ending it still has some pretty deep flaws. It's not the best thing since sliced bread. I can acknowledge those flaws, hope that Bioware gets back to the drawing for Andromeda (assuming it will be a series) and still enjoy playing the game.

[Iakus]

 

The Citadel DLC is a huge pile of light-hearted fanservice that fits nowhere into ME3's narrative and it generally doesn't make a whole lot of sense considering that millions are dying in a galaxy wide extinction event while Shepard parties and goes on dates. What the hell is that doing in a game about the end of the galaxy as we know it? The thing is, I still love the silly thing and find it a lot of fun, in spite of how ridiculous and cringeworthy it might be. Because you can enjoy things AND admit they might not be perfect.

The fact that Citadel fits so poorly into ME3's narrative is exactly why it's so much fun.  I finish the party and don't want to go back to the main story.

[rossler]

It means that for some people who hated the ending, others loved it.

[gothpunkboy89]

What Monica said. Nobody's complained it is not perfect. That's not people's problem with it. If you think otherwise, you'll have to quote the posts you mean where people demand the ending be flawless, because I've read the entire thread and I sure haven't seen any. Wanting it to be good isn't the same as wanting it to be flawless. And, honestly, I find it slightly ironic that the same person (Not talking about you, just to be clear.) that demands we do not take the ending at face value takes a fairly commonly thrown around phrase completely literally. And what I think is even worse is that some people are lurking here until they can finally find that single word or phrase they can grab just to try and dismiss what you're saying. They don't even argue with the whole post. Just that small cluster of letters, as if it had any weight in this discussion.

 

So I repeat: It was not meant to be taken literally and I've never asked for the games to be perfect. I know that is unrealistic. I hope I've made myself clear enough on the matter.

 

Rather seen the posts on the forums that the ending would have been perfect if they cut basically all the part on the Citadel and just had the Crucible blow the Reapers up. Compared to what you got in game were the creators gave the Reapers and the ending a little bit of depth to them. They would have the game be so shallow if it was a puddle I wouldn't even get my shoes wet standing in it.

 

The very complaints that show up again and again are all based on the game not doing things perfectly? Why do so many people not like the Catalyst? Because he wasn't introduced perfectly into the game. Or at least their own interpretation of perfectly into the game. Why do people not like the options you are given at the end? In regards to them thinking the Crucible should just kill Reapers and do nothing else? Because to their perceptions the options were not introduced perfectly into the game.

 

Hell 90% of the complaints about the writing is based on the idea in their head that the writers at BioWare thought the game was 110% perfection incarnate. And use proof of the EC needing to exist and proof they are really shitty writes because they feel the original version was 100% intended and they saw it as 100% perfect.

[Monica21]

It means that for some people who hated the ending, others loved it.

Pretty sure most of us understand the meaning, and that lots of people like the ending. What is your point? What contribution did your comment make to the discussion, other than reminding us of what we already knew?

[rossler]

To reinforce the point that the ending was a mixed bag with various good and bad opinions.

[Monica21]

To reinforce the point that the ending was a mixed bag with various good and bad opinions.

Well, thank you for that.