3578 réponses à ce sujet

[Natureguy85]

We can only judge that when we know the entirety of the solutions the Catalyst attempted, but failed to implement, which obviously couldn't happen in the time provided in the game. I believe the only previously attempted solution that we know about was Synthesis.

Since we can easily think of several better solutions to the proposed problem, the Catalyst is either very narrow minded or a terrible implementer. The evidence points toward the former.

 

Three ideas I have are

 

1) Give organics synthetics to improve their lives that won't attack and kill them. This is in keeping with the "your society develops along the paths we desire" idea.

 

2) Kill the super synthetics.

 

3) Even only killing the species that made the killer synthetics makes more sense.

 

Edit. I can math. Wrote "two" and listed three.

[Vanilka]

It has everything to do with this discussion. I point out that the game isn't perfect because people complain about those perfections.

 

 

 I use the many examples of players going to extremes on subject and now you claim it isn't part of this discussion? Because these are examples of people going to extremes. And uses those extremes to validate their complain that X event or writing is terrible. In fact players like Iakus I don't think I've ever seen post a positive thing about this game in the 6 months + I've been on the forums for this game.

 

You complain about me going to extremes or using extremes and I try to point out that I'm not the only one guilty of this. Yet when I point out other players suddenly it isn't relevant anymore? Seems to so a fair degree of bias.

 

Sure. Whatever you say. Just like your examples with dinosaurs and lady parts and tiger dicks also had everything to do with this discussion, huh? Do you even remember why you started this conversation? From what you're claiming now, I think not. I'll give you a hint: It was not about what you're trying to derail it to now. And I can't be bothered to answer your off-topic rambling. Seriously, if you're trolling, you're absolutely remarkable. Either way, get off my back. Get back to me when you feel like discussing the actual game.

[Vanilka]

I don't know if you realize how important that statement is to this conversation, since I'm guessing you were just being funny. I did laugh but it's actually a powerful statement about stories. They can convey a message and have multiple applications. It's one of the reasons we like them so much.

 

Oh, I don't disagree. I just had nothing useful to add besides, hopefully, a humorous response since I honestly got confused for a moment there. In fact, I'm of the same opinion. Or similar. I don't know. But I don't think the Reapers needed to be explained overmuch, either. And that's my personal opinion. I think some of the things that hurt my experience from the ending most are that 1) the story basically ends with an info dump about the Reapers (after an already long dialogue with TIM), 2) the Reapers get reduced into dumb tools. (I'm not going to go into the other equally bothersome things right now.) I don't need or expect everybody to agree with me or feel the same, but I've got to say that the Reapers at the end of the franchise have none of the charm and magic Sovereign had in my eyes. When I first met Sovereign, I was so fascinated with the concept of immortal sapient machines and where did they come from and who made them and what is dark space and...? It filled me with wonder. The ending ruined that for me. It doesn't help at all that their logic just doesn't add up in the context of the franchise, so it feels like the mystery was all sacrificed for nothing. I did expect to learn more about the Reapers. But having them fall apart into sock puppets stricken with such an amazing amount of idiocy in the last minutes of the franchise was sure disappointing for me.

[Dantriges]

That's a bit different. That more describes how TIM probably should have been handled. I knew TIM was Indoctrinated from the first conversation on Mars after the Cerberus Trooper face reveal. Lets say they didn't do the Reaper tech reveal right away on Mars, or that TIM didn't even turn to Reaper tech until the end out of desperation. Make small Cerberus teams pop up on missions rather than having them be their own Empire. Then we'd see him as an actual rival that still wanted the Reapers stopped. We'd only be disagreeing on methods.

The Catalyst, on the other hand, never made it's case. My point was that I don't get where it's coming from.

Hm, yeah k. That´s a case of a bunch of nonsense from nowhere, you can´t disagree with.

[Gorwath-F]

I have yet to see one coherent line of reasoning in favour of the ending. I'll be damned if I ever encountered a post that wasn't either a sequence of non-sequiturs, an argument from ignorance, a red herring, or blatant fanboyism that amounts to "I like it and therefore it must be good."

 

Just to fair and to not indulge in the same fallacies that plague this forum, I was willing to watch how posters here defend the indefensivable. But nowadays that is about as likely as Bioware/EA ever making another good game.

[Abedsbrother]

Since we can easily think of several better solutions to the proposed problem, the Catalyst is either very narrow minded or a terrible implementer. The evidence points toward the former.

 

Two ideas I have are

 

1) Give organics synthetics to improve their lives that won't attack and kill them. This is in keeping with the "your society develops along the paths we desire" idea.

 

2) Kill the super synthetics.

 

3) Even only killing the species that made the killer synthetics makes more sense.

1) These kinds of restrictions are already in place in the Mass Effect universe, created & imposed by the Citadel Council. Only making some kinds of synthetics and not others is not practically enforceable, as there will always be some who break the rules (see Mass Effect: Revelation). The point of ME2: Overlord was that it only takes one experiment gone wrong to endanger the entire galaxy.

2) The super-synthetics won't exist unless organics create them (in the case of the Reapers, Leviathan who created the Catalyst who conceptualized  and implemented the Reapers). This solution does nothing to address what the Catalyst sees as the root of the problem (i.e organics will always create synthetics).

3) Already happens. Only the species sophisticated enough to create synthetics that could turn on their creators are eliminated in each harvest. The Catalyst even says this in conversation.

[rossler]

Your understanding is correct, but while that does solve the problem, it's a very convoluted solution. How is that the best plan the Catalyst could come up with?

 

He didn't come up with it. The blueprints you found for the Crucible, and how well intact it is (EMS) dictate the options he presents.

 

The Crucible changed me, created new possibilities....

 

He can't come up with any other solutions than what the blueprints provide. He's reading the owner's manual here.

 

The Reapers did provide the option to "submit to them" (refuse), which Saren described as "is submission not preferable to extinction?". So the refusal option was there too.

[Monica21]

He can't come up with any other solutions than what the blueprints provide. He's reading the owner's manual here.

Which proves how useless the Catalyst is. He's not an AI. At best he's an operating system. He's just running off code, and despite saying how he had to come up with a new solution that destroyed the Leviathans, he can't come up with a new solution that actually fits the current problem, or likely any previous problem. The current problem is the Reapers. It's not some billions years old problem between organics and synthetics. The problem is the Reapers.

[correctamundo]

Sure, but that has to be presented in the story for us to buy into it.

 

I'm not sure about the "us" thing. Still Catalysts kind transcends our very understanding. We cannot grasp the nature of its existence. And why should Catalyst bother? Whether Shep understands or not isn't really important to it.

 

Everlasting peace is an unrealistic pipe dream, but that's not really important. What's important is that peace can happen at all.

 

Yes peace is nice. I'm all for it but is it a proof of concept or an outlier? This one peace treaty does not seem to be enough for Catalysts data to lose significance.

[rossler]

Which proves how useless the Catalyst is. He's not an AI. At best he's an operating system. He's just running off code, and despite saying how he had to come up with a new solution that destroyed the Leviathans, he can't come up with a new solution that actually fits the current problem, or likely any previous problem. The current problem is the Reapers. It's not some billions years old problem between organics and synthetics. The problem is the Reapers.

 

If the problem is the Reapers, then destroy the Reapers.

[Monica21]

If the problem is the Reapers, then destroy the Reapers.

The Catalyst doesn't let me "just" so that. The Catalyst decides that I have to solve a billion years old problem between organics and synthetics. A problem I don't actually have. The only problem I have is the Reapers.

[Monica21]

I'm not sure about the "us" thing. Still Catalysts kind transcends our very understanding. We cannot grasp the nature of its existence. And why should Catalyst bother? Whether Shep understands or not isn't really important to it.

The Catalyst is incredibly simplistic. "I've been killing organics for billions of years because otherwise there's conflict." Okay. Except now my only problem with synthetics is with the guys the Catalyst is controlling. Then the Catalyst said that Shepard offers new variables. The Catalyst is a running code. It's not thinking. I really can't even be convinced that it's sentient. The Catalyst is a poorly disguised VI, barely as capable as Avina.

[Natureguy85]

Yes. The game establishes it many times that the Reapers can't be defeated conventionally, and the Crucible is required to end the conflict.

 

I think people ignored the story and focused on their power fantasy instead.

 

True, but there was no reason at the end of ME1 that it had to be that way. There's nothing wrong with the Crucible being required. The problem there is mostly with presentation and lack of investigation.

 

 

When I first met Sovereign, I was so fascinated with the concept of immortal sapient machines and where did they come from and who made them and what is dark space and...? It filled me with wonder. The ending ruined that for me. It doesn't help at all that their logic just doesn't add up in the context of the franchise, so it feels like the mystery was all sacrificed for nothing. I did expect to learn more about the Reapers. But having them fall apart into sock puppets stricken with such an amazing amount of idiocy in the last minutes of the franchise was sure disappointing for me.

 

This is another great point. I used Pandora's Box, but your description is like a magic trick. Once you know how it works. it's less special. Interestingly, Hudson reveals that he understands this concept when discussing Tali's face and the decision of whether or not to show it.

 

 

Hm, yeah k. That´s a case of a bunch of nonsense from nowhere, you can´t disagree with.

 

Just like a Space Flea. At least the Catalyst got a small bit of very late foreshadowing.

 

 

 

1) These kinds of restrictions are already in place in the Mass Effect universe, created & imposed by the Citadel Council. Only making some kinds of synthetics and not others is not practically enforceable, as there will always be some who break the rules (see Mass Effect: Revelation). The point of ME2: Overlord was that it only takes one experiment gone wrong to endanger the entire galaxy.

2) The super-synthetics wouldn't exist unless organics create them (in the case of the Reapers, Leviathan who created the Catalyst who conceptualized  and implemented the Reapers). This solution does nothing to address what the Catalyst sees as the root of the problem (i.e organics will always create synthetics).

3) Already happens. Only the species sophisticated enough to create synthetics that could turn on their creators are eliminated in each harvest. The Catalyst even says this in conversation.

 

1) I'm looking at the Catalyst's premise. The argument is that Organics make Synthetics to improve themselves and those Synthetics kill their Organic creators. if the Reapers give Organics the Synthetics, then Organics have no reason to build Synthetics.

 

2) The Catalyst's Reaper solution doesn't address the root of the problem either. However, my proposed solution #2 doesn't kill lots of the organics.

 

3) No it doesn't. The closest species that came to creating the super synthetics is the Quarians, yet the Reapers come to harvest everyone else who has advance to whatever level. You even said "species sophisticated enough" meaning it doesn't matter if they actually did it or not. I'm suggesting only killing off the species who did it.

 

On that note, why do the Reapers go away? Why not constantly patrol and police the galaxy? If they need sleep, they can take shifts.

[GreyLycanTrope]

The owner's manual told him to turn the owner's into goo and then build a robot out of it? I sure hope that guy who wrote that got fired, before he got turned into goo I mean.

[rossler]

On that note, why do the Reapers go away? Why not constantly patrol and police the galaxy? If they need sleep, they can take shifts.

 

If they were to take a nap in the middle of the Milky Way, the forces of the galaxy would destroy them, because while hibernating they are vulnerable. The Reapers are smarter than that. That's why they retreat outside the Milky Way, then put themselves in hibernation until the next cycle begins.

 

All this stuff was answered in ME1.

 

True, but there was no reason at the end of ME1 that it had to be that way. There's nothing wrong with the Crucible being required. The problem there is mostly with presentation and lack of investigation.

 

You just don't like it.

 

I've read plenty of alternatives, where the Crucible is modified to weaken the Reapers down to a manageable strength so they could be defeated conventionally. Or some kind of reprogramming beam which makes the Reapers forget their harvesting routine and they go back to dark space and the galaxy is left alone forever.

 

If the Crucible only destroyed the Reapers and didn't touch anything else, people wouldn't be so up in arms about it. Yes, Shepard might die if your EMS is low, but the mass relays, Geth, etc stay intact.

 

People don't like the Crucible's implementation because of the negative consequences it presents. If it was all good things, then that'd be okay.

 

Admiral Hackett points a similar thing out with the atomic bomb and its potential negative consequences if detonated.

 

But hey, this game is about consequences for your actions after all. Good or bad.

[Cz-99]

Starbrat's the worst thing to happen to Mass Effect since Mako and the elevators.

[Natureguy85]

If they were to take a nap in the middle of the Milky Way, the forces of the galaxy would destroy them, because while hibernating they are vulnerable. The Reapers are smarter than that. That's why they retreat outside the Milky Way, then put themselves in hibernation until the next cycle begins.

 

All this stuff was answered in ME1.

 

That's why I said take shifts. Either the inactive ones would be out in dark space or the active ones would protect them. The former is more likely.  The Reapers don't need their full numbers to defeat the Combined Fleet. Or what if they did nap in the middle of the Milky Way? Remember ME2 where it was a major plot point that nobody could get to the core safely?

 

One thing we have not discussed is that the Catalyst has a point at which it does not allow Organics to advance beyond but it does not have any incentive to allow them to reach a certain point either. The only thing I can think of is allowing population to grow to the point they can make a new Reaper. So in the hypothetical, the Reapers would keep Organics from advancing to the point that they could challenge them. It would just be more active intervention rather than going away for 50,000 years.

 

And since when do you hold up ME1? That info came from Vigil, which your guy gothpunkboy is adamant can not be trusted.

[correctamundo]

The Catalyst is incredibly simplistic. "I've been killing organics for billions of years because otherwise there's conflict." Okay. Except now my only problem with synthetics is with the guys the Catalyst is controlling. Then the Catalyst said that Shepard offers new variables. The Catalyst is a running code. It's not thinking. I really can't even be convinced that it's sentient. The Catalyst is a poorly disguised VI, barely as capable as Avina.

 

Not according to Sovereign - the vanguard of our destruction.

[Abedsbrother]

1) I'm looking at the Catalyst's premise. The argument is that Organics make Synthetics to improve themselves and those Synthetics kill their Organic creators. if the Reapers give Organics the Synthetics, then Organics have no reason to build Synthetics.

Fair enough. But then, once the Reapers have given organics the synthetics, why would they need continue existing? Maybe they'd head off to Andromeda or something to spread their "safe synthetics only" doctrine (oh, f*ck no!). There is nothing to indicate that giving a species synthetics and saying, "Those are all the synthetics that are safe for you to have," would stop anyone from experimenting further. For example, it certainly wouldn't stop TIM imo.

 

2) The Catalyst's Reaper solution doesn't address the root of the problem either. However, my proposed solution #2 doesn't kill lots of the organics.

The crisis that the Catalyst claims to be averting is the destruction of all organic life at the hands of synthetics. To the extent that the Reaper solution allows organic species to continue to develop (up to a point), the Reaper solution does work - at the expense of advanced organic civilizations, yes.

Are you suggesting that the Reapers show up to kill super-synthetics whenever the latter appear, then retreat back into dark space to wait for the next batch of super-synthetics to appear? I could envision this happening if Control is chosen.

 

3) No it doesn't. The closest species that came to creating the super synthetics is the Quarians, yet the Reapers come to harvest everyone else who has advance to whatever level. You even said "species sophisticated enough" meaning it doesn't matter if they actually did it or not. I'm suggesting only killing off the species who did it.

To use an extreme example, are you suggesting that all humanity should be harvested by the Reapers because of Project Overlord?

 

If the Reapers leave alive a species capable of sentient synthetic construction (but who has not done it yet) and retreat to dark space thinking their work is finished, that species could then begin development on a sentient synthetic immediately after the conclusion of the harvest. Meaning that, by the time the Reapers arrive for the next harvest (even assuming 50,000 years is an estimate), all organic life could already be extinguished, meaning the Catalyst failed in its mission to protect organic life.

 

On that note, why do the Reapers go away? Why not constantly patrol and police the galaxy? If they need sleep, they can take shifts.

 

Patrolling the galaxy could work, as you suggested, though I speculate not for long - primarily because species would resent the Reapers' patrolling as controlling and not liberating (not that it would necessarily be one or the other). 

[Monica21]

Yes they did need a backstory and motivation behind why they instigate the harvest. Other wise they are just doing it for the lolz and that isn't interesting in the slightest.

The problem with assigning motives to bad guys, especially monstrous, civilization-destroying bad guys, is that it creates more questions than it answers. I'm fine with wondering why the Reapers do the reaping and with Sovereign being the vanguard of our destruction. I'm not fine with wondering how in the world the Intelligence came to the conclusion that destroying organics and preserving them in Reaper form is a better solution. I'm not okay with wondering why I can't tell the Catalyst it's wrong. I'm not okay with wanting to explain to the Catalyst that turning organics into goo isn't "preservation."
 

Catalyst philosophizing at is is the best part because it turns the Reapers from a 2d flat stale seen it a million time enemy into something a slightly bit more unique.

The Catalyst is no philosopher. (And something can't be "slightly a bit more unique." Things are unique or they're not. It's like saying, "kind of pregnant.") The Catalyst is a program. It spouts the product of its code at you in the language you understand. It introduces a new problem in the last five minutes of the game. A problem that you just solved like, three hours earlier. It doesn't have a solution. It has looping code that it can't get out of.
 

Seriously ever heard people talk about any Marvel movie? With the exception of Loki never hear anyone talking about how good the villain is. Because they are all the same bland, boring, copy paste one off bad guys over and over again. And you know why Loki is loved by many and is really the only good Marvel villain in all of their movies? Because they added a bit of depth and character to him. That is why you can find a ton of cosplay of Loki but not a lot of Ivan Vanko the villain of IM 2.

Are you saying that the Reapers are good villains?
 

Because the prequels did at least one thing right in terms of Vader. Gives more reasoning why he was so dead set on converting Luke and why he turned on the Emperor so quickly when Luke was in danger.

The prequels were terrible and unnecessary. Vader didn't need to be explained. The Emperor didn't need to be explained. Vader turned on the Emperor because Luke was his son. If you didn't get this from just watching Return of the Jedi, then I don't know what to do with you. He didn't need additional motivation.

[Natureguy85]

Fair enough. But then, once the Reapers have given organics the synthetics, why would they need continue existing? Maybe they'd head off to Andromeda or something to spread their "safe synthetics only" doctrine (oh, f*ck no!). There is nothing to indicate that giving a species synthetics and saying, "Those are all the synthetics that are safe for you to have," would stop anyone from experimenting further. For example, it certainly wouldn't stop TIM imo.

 

Sorry, I meant the Catalyst would make these Synthetics instead of Reapers. The Reapers are part of the solution and wouldn't have ever been necessary in this hypothetical.

 

Sure, you might get some tinkerers, or get someone curious in a Garden of Eden and Tree of Good and Evil scenario. But what would actually happen might not be relevant. We're discussing the Catalyst's premise and it's all theoretical. This concept has worked for the Reapers in regards to the Mass Effect and Mass Relays so there's no reason to think t wouldn't work for its robot servants given to organics.

 

 

Edit: fixed the tree

 

 

The crisis that the Catalyst claims to be averting is the destruction of all organic life at the hands of synthetics. To the extent that the Reaper solution allows organic species to continue to develop (up to a point), the Reaper solution does work - at the expense of advanced organic civilizations, yes.

Are you suggesting that the Reapers show up to kill super-synthetics whenever the latter appear, then retreat back into dark space to wait for the next batch of super-synthetics to appear? I could envision this happening if Control is chosen.

 

It's an option. Why not? The mandate is to preserve life and I'm sure the Leviathans would prefer more tribute paying thralls as opposed to less. And since the Catalyst has supposedly seen this over and over, it should know the warning signs of the impending uprising and could act then if you don't want it to have to wait until after.

 

 

 

To use an extreme example, are you suggesting that all humanity should be harvested by the Reapers because of Project Overlord?

That's certainly more reasonable than also wiping out everyone else that the Reapers are going are going to kill as it stands. And you could get even more localized if you want. Just wipe out Overlord or just wipe out Cerberus.

 

 

 

If the Reapers leave alive a species capable of sentient synthetic construction (but who has not done it yet) and retreat to dark space thinking their work is finished, that species could then begin development on a sentient synthetic immediately after the conclusion of the harvest. Meaning that, by the time the Reapers arrive for the next harvest (even assuming 50,000 years is an estimate), all organic life could already be extinguished, meaning the Catalyst failed in its mission to protect organic life.

 

Patrolling the galaxy could work, as you suggested, though I speculate not for long - primarily because species would resent the Reapers' patrolling as controlling and not liberating (not that it would necessarily be one or the other).

 

Yeah, in that scenario, constant vigilance would be needed. But remember, they can leave some behind to watch, like Sovereign. But who cares if the species resent the Reapers? The galaxy resents them plenty as they kill everyone and that doesn't stop them.

[gothpunkboy89]

I do it because it's a different presentation of the same ideas. The hope is that if another person says it in a different way, it will penetrate the fog around your brain. The point is about story telling in general and is being applied to Mass Effect so I don't need gameplay footage. We know what happened and we're discussing it..

 

Popularity of an idea or concept does not mean that it is the best or correct statement. There are countless examples to use to support this statement but I will use a simple one.

 

On November 24th 2012 Jagex the creators of Runescape released an update to over haul the combat system completely after 6+ months in beta. This updated was called "Evolution of Combat" or EoC as it would later be shortened to in most forum posts because they have a 2k character limit. Since the start of the beta up to and after the release a lot of players were swearing it would kill the game. Forums, youtube, social media they were all declaring and agreeing with each other how this was the final nail in the coffin that was Runescape.  That everyone would quit and no one would come back.

 

Cut to 3 years going on 4 years later the game continues on and a fair number of players that left when it first was released have come back to it to find it isn't that bad. They even did something Blizzard is to lazy to do. Created a legacy server of the game in 2007. And as it grew in popularity along side the main game they added dedicated Mods to it who have grown it in it's own unique direction to the main game.

 

All of theses hundreds to possibility thousands of players swore they were right. They knew what was going to happen and they all agreed on it. Yet it turned out what they claimed was wrong. Popularity of a specific idea or concept doesn't make it right. It just makes it popular.

[Monica21]

Popularity of an idea or concept does not mean that it is the best or correct statement. There are countless examples to use to support this statement but I will use a simple one.

And four years after the release of ME3 everyone who thought the ending was terrible has changed their minds. Yes, this was totally the best example.

[rossler]

If the Reapers had simplistic motives, they would be chipmunks, not sentient starships.

[Monica21]

If the Reapers had simplistic motives, they would be chipmunks, not sentient starships.

Their motives are simple, is the point. "Kill organics. Make goo. Create Reaper from goo." Other than spouting a lot of "hurr durr you'll never understand us" dialogue at you, explain how the Reapers display sentience.