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Mass Effect 3's ending is absolutely brilliant!


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#1851
Monica21

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But you do say he is wrong telling it without free will we might as well be machines programed to do what we are told. You say your bit, the Catalyst says it's bit and then you make a choice. That is exactly how any choice in this game plays out. Be it major choices like who do you let die on Virmire or do you save or destroy the Collector base. Heck even just the simple dialogue wheel operates the exact same. The statement that why they do it is beyond our comprehension appears to be true. Because you can't seem to comprehend it at all. Not that you have tried.
 
The word philosophizing was used by someone else not me. Though there is a bit of philosophy going on in the discussion. As with many things the basic plot idea has been used many many different times. Seriously the basic plot of the game has more then a few similarities between the Lord of the Rings book series, Halo series, Resistance series and many more I'm sure I don't personally know. The differences that make each slightly unique among each other is the subtle differences in how they handle it. Lord of the Ring it is mutated elves and a ring, Halo it is the flood parasite and the halo rings left over from the Forerunners who build them specifically to stop the flood at the cost of their own existence and Resistance is it the Chimera virus and a lack of understanding of surge protection on the towers which control the weather.


I don't think you know what you mean when you say, "philosophizing." Saying, "without hope we have no future" is not exactly an existential conversation on the meaning of life and what it means to be alive. Again, the Catalyst is telling you the product of its code. That's really it. It's dressed up in a holographic boy and a fancy set, but that doesn't make it philosophy.

And what is it about the Reaper's motivations that is beyond my comprehension? Because what you don't understand is how incredibly simplistic they are. You're the one building them up to be more than they are.
 

Yea they are rather good villains. Sovereign sets everything up able to lead an attack on the Citadel that leaves it crippled and almost allowing it to achieve it's goal stopped only by plot reasons that make no sense at all when you think about it. Which is always a sign of a good villain when the creators have to pull that move to defeat them. ME 2 it is then shown even without a Reaper present in the galaxy they can still exert their influence though the Collectors. Were they quite literally hunted down and killed Shepard though their proxy. When they finally show up every threat about them is for filled in spades as they simply steam roll the defenses of every race in the galaxy. All they could do is slow them down but never stop them. On top of all of this they aren't doing it just for the lols or just to be evil for evil's sake. Their actions are for the greater good of the galaxy. They have been around for hundreds of millions of years and are taking the steps they see as the only way to preserve all organic life in the galaxy from their own self created destruction.  They have actual reasoning besides just being evil, are a massive threat as they can't be stopped and best of all they are doing to them what is the right thing to do.  So yea good villains.


Sovereign is a great villain. Not the least of which is because you don't actually know he's the villain until you're three quarters of the way through the game. Then everything gets over-explained and falls apart in ME3. And buddy, stop talking about the plot. We all know what the plot is. You expounding on the plot doesn't help your case. Neither does your continued insistence on saying things like "slightly unique." Stop doing that.
 

Prequeal's problem is...


... that it exists. End.
 

And those people still think the game is going to die and are still wrong. So yea perfect example actually.


No one thinks that. Show me one person in this discussion who's said that.

#1852
rossler

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Sovereign was indeed awesome. Characters did matter in ME1 but it also had a good plot to carry it. The shift to characters over plot happened in ME2. So you must have hated ME2 since it had almost no Reaper story and was entirely dependent on its characters. What did you think of ME3 and its elevation of Cerberus over the Reapers?

 

I didn't hate ME2. The Collectors were pawns of the Reapers, specifically Harbinger. There was a bunch of side stories which tied back into the Reaper narrative as well. Maybe not the main plot of collecting loyal allies for a suicide mission. The Collectors abducting humans to use for the human Reaper makes sense, because that's essentially what synthesis is. It all ties back into the Reaper narrative. 

 

I saw the Cerberus elevation thing coming way back in ME2. It wasn't out of place if you followed the side stories. The husk conversion process they do in ME3 is practically foreshadowed in ME2 for you. They find an indoctrination device which turns humans into husks and so Cerberus wanted you to get it for them, so they could learn how to create husks themselves. Then in ME3, they use that knowledge at Sanctuary. Once they learn how to control the husks, they attempt to apply the same thing with the Reapers. Which backfires because they failed to successfully control the Reapers. They were just doing the Reapers work for them. 

 

Reapers: You think you can control us?

Shepard: Yes.

Reapers: Assuming direct control of Shepard



#1853
voteDC

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I wasn't big on the characters. What drew me to Mass Effect was the Reaper story, and destroying them in the end. 

To be honest I expected you to be of the opposite opinion but was hoping to get a little more of your usual flair with why you think that way. I genuinely find that interesting.



#1854
Natureguy85

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ad ho·mi·nem
ˌad ˈhämənəm/
adverb & adjective
adverb: ad hominem; adjective: ad hominem
1.
(of an argument or reaction) directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining.
 
-Looks at your reply and how you make a direct comparison to Eldrich/Lovecraftian monsters and how Reapers should have no real story and be just like them-
 
Yea don't see it. Again though nice use of Wiki to try and discount my entire post by using a big word that would score you big points on scrabble. The direction BioWare decided to take the Reapers allows them to stand out if only slightly from the crowd. Because again the basic set up that the Reapers represent have been used time and time and time again. Big scary things that do things for big scary things reasons and can only be stopped by plot devices isn't interesting after the 800th it is used.

 

 

I didn't need to consult a wiki to know what ad hominem means. Rather than address any of the substance in my post, you  call me extreme and say I must just hate new things.

 

Yes, I made a comparison. There are similarities and the Reapers are clearly influenced by Lovecraft. I still never said the Reapers needed no backstory but you purposefully misconstrue what I said into a strawman so you can call me extreme.

You complain that my ideas make the Reapers too similar to whatever yet advocate for the very things that made people lose interest in the Reapers. Sovereign was interesting and intimidating. Harbinger was silly and the Catalyst reveals the Reapers to be incredibly stupid. Now they are just the tools of a mad AI taking its instructions in a direction its creators did not intend. Are you going to tell me that's original?

 

 

 

The entire trilogy is about home and triumph. So how is it out of place here?

 

Home? How, other than the Quarians?

 

Triumph? There's no triumph in the ending. You stumble into the beam, have a somewhat interesting conversation with TIM, and possibly a heartwarming conversation with Anderson before the sadness of his death. Then you go up to meet the real antagonist and he lets you "win."

 

Congratulations, brave warrior!

 

 

 

 

 

I didn't hate ME2. The Collectors were pawns of the Reapers, specifically Harbinger. There was a bunch of side stories which tied back into the Reaper narrative as well. Maybe not the main plot of collecting loyal allies for a suicide mission. The Collectors abducting humans to use for the human Reaper makes sense, because that's essentially what synthesis is. It all ties back into the Reaper narrative. 

 

I saw the Cerberus elevation thing coming way back in ME2. It wasn't out of place if you followed the side stories. The husk conversion process they do in ME3 is practically foreshadowed in ME2 for you. They find a device which turns humans into husks and so Cerberus wanted you to get it for them, so they could learn how to create husks themselves. Then in ME3, they use that knowledge at Sanctuary. 

 

Yes, they were pawns of the Reapers but that was just a suspicion of TIMs until you saw they also had husks. Ok so the Collectors serve the Reapers. So what? Lets see what they are doing. Hmm, they are making a human Reaper. Why, or at least why now? What's the grand plan here? Like you, I did see the way Reapers are made as being a crude attempt at Synthesis and I did like that connection.

 

Cerberus being relevant wasn't a surprise but that they were actually more relevant than the Reaper forces was the problem. This wasn't like Dragon Age Origins where the Darkspawn are mostly off in the distance. The Reapers are pretty much everywhere.

 

The devices for turning Humans into husks were found in ME1.


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#1855
Mouser

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The entire trilogy is about home and triumph. So how is it out of place here?

 

The first game was about the reveal of the Reapers. Yes, you beat Saren, but you learned that an unstoppable force of pure evil was coming to destroy everything. Not much hope or triumph there.

 

The second game was more of the same - we learned more about the cycle, and how the Protheans were turned into collectors. The collectors had turned entire colonies of humans into goo. We get to feel good that we saved our crew, but that doesn't bring back everyone already gone. True, the collectors were stopped, but their work was done, and the final shot of the game was of the massive invasion fleet of Reapers coming in. Not much hope or triumph to be found.

 

Enter the third game. Suddenly, we're solving problems and making people happy. Genophage is able to be cured. The Krogan may have 'enlightened' leadership in Eve and Wrex. The Geth and Quarian can put aside their differences (which is completely out of place on its own, but that's a different topic). The final space battle isn't even treated like the suicide mission that it is.

 

 

I may be biased because I've heard the story before in several forms, but ultimately it's about fighting to the end in the face of oblivion. Choosing your fate, even if that fate is destruction, rather than allowing your fate to be imposed upon you. Breaking the cycle that guarantees a status quo where people live, even if it ultimately leads to your destruction. 

 

My personal hunch is that someone decided the ending would be too bleak or too esoteric for most gamers, and seeing how few people know about Xenosaga or understand the anime ending to Evangelion, I can't say that they were wrong. Unfortunately, the story had already progressed down one path so far that putting in those 'twists' just caused it to become more confusing thematically, as well as bringing up some major plot holes/inconsistencies.


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#1856
KrrKs

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We must have seen different themes, I think. What themes are you positing?

I mean, I can see a way in which Refuse fits, in the sense that Shepard turns out to have been as stupid and blind as all the other leaders in the universe, but I don't think that's what you were going for.

 

The presented choices are basically the antitheses to what was presented as 'right' during most of the trilogy.

Trilogy: Diversity is nothing bad.  Synthesis: All become the same! (I previously compared that to the Borg, but received a "there are no Borg in ME" as answer)

Trilogy: Let stuff live.                    Destroy: Kill more stuff!

Trilogy: Control is bad.                 Control: -.-

 

Refuse is going against these choices, favouring the original themes.

"I will fight for freedom, mine and everyone's. [...] for the right to choose our own fate"

(Missing something that goes directly against destroy, but the 'choosing ones own fate' also covers that somewhat)

 

I think the last time I also posted parts in the trilogy where these themes surface more than usual, I might backtrack to find it.


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#1857
rossler

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The presented choices are basically the antitheses to what was presented as 'right' during most of the trilogy.

 

Sounds like Reaper indoctrination to me. 

 

0Ydr8sDl.jpg



#1858
gothpunkboy89

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I didn't need to consult a wiki to know what ad hominem means. Rather than address any of the substance in my post, you  call me extreme and say I must just hate new things.

 

Yes, I made a comparison. There are similarities and the Reapers are clearly influenced by Lovecraft. I still never said the Reapers needed no backstory but you purposefully misconstrue what I said into a strawman so you can call me extreme.

You complain that my ideas make the Reapers too similar to whatever yet advocate for the very things that made people lose interest in the Reapers. Sovereign was interesting and intimidating. Harbinger was silly and the Catalyst reveals the Reapers to be incredibly stupid. Now they are just the tools of a mad AI taking its instructions in a direction its creators did not intend. Are you going to tell me that's original?

 

 

Home? How, other than the Quarians?

 

Triumph? There's no triumph in the ending. You stumble into the beam, have a somewhat interesting conversation with TIM, and possibly a heartwarming conversation with Anderson before the sadness of his death. Then you go up to meet the real antagonist and he lets you "win."

 

Congratulations, brave warrior!

 

 

You brought up the Eldrich/Lovecraftian first stating that they work fine without any detailed back story. I reply that yes they obviously got inspiration from them but then they went their own way with them. Not creating an exact copy of how Lovecraft handles his monsters. That this shows a sign of creativity and an attempt to create something of their own rather then just copy pasting existing concepts and set ups. Which any idiot can do.

 

Try harder with your false strawman cries.

 

The next part is were any attempt to talk to you will break down because you are so set on your ideology that the Catalyst is stupid I might as well be talking about the benefits of atheism to a religious zealot. So rather then trying to talk with you at this point I'm going going to talk to you. The Catalyst isn't mad, insane or evil killing simply because they can which is now almost the stereotype when dealing with that particular set up. It was created to solve a specific problem that came about because Organic races enter into a self destructive cycle with the artificial life they create. If it was limited to a single planet or a single race it would be one thing but it has the capability to spread endangering not just the creator but all organic life in the galaxy. After trying multiple attempts it went with the only plan that would work the preservation of organic races and their history in the near immortal shell of the Reaper. Everything it does makes logical sense. The issues come about when people like you attempt to over simplify or out right ignore what you don't want to hear to allow you to claim it is idiotic.

 

Seriously how many times has the straw man popped up "well EDI was friendly" as if EDI is the sum total representation of all possible synthetic life in all it's variations.

 

The route they went with the Reapers is far more original then the route you would have them go. Sorry but robo Cthulhu isn't very original.

 

This second bit can be a reply to Mouser as well.

 

I meant hope not home. Hope and Triumph.

 

ME1-  Saren attacks you have the hopes of stopping him as you play the game you see the larger plot unfold involving the Reapers. With pure hope Shepard and group stop the attack and stop Sovergin from unleashing the Reapers allowing them to triumph.

 

ME2- Shep is killed but once he is revived he rekindles the hope of former crew mates and inspires hope in the new ones that they can beat the collectors. At the end of the day Shep and crew again triumph against the Collectors ending their and by extension the Reaper's plans.

 

ME3- During the darkness of the Reaper invasion they put all their hope in the Crucible that it will work. During that time Shepard and crew travel the galaxy uniting the races together and giving them hope that they can together beat the Reapers. At the end which ever choice you make results in you being triumphant as you end the Reaper War. Even the refuse option ends in triumph though for the next cycle as they were able to defeat the Reapers with the help of the in game cycle.



#1859
BloodyMares

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Seriously how many times has the straw man popped up "well EDI was friendly" as if EDI is the sum total representation of all possible synthetic life in all it's variations.

 

EDI is totally a representation of synthetic life. Not in all variations, sure, but she is the most notable. The other one being Legion (I won't discuss geth with you).
If she's not a representation of that then why do you think she was given this huge ark both in ME2 and ME3? They show her evolution, they try so hard to show that she has the ability to feel fear, to feel loneliness, to feel love. When I thinks about synthetics the first thought is definitely of EDI. She basically breaks the Catalyst's premise. And it's very powerful.


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#1860
Vanilka

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EDI is totally a representation of synthetic life. Not in all variations, sure, but she is the most notable. The other one being Legion (I won't discuss geth with you).
If she's not a representation of that then why do you think she was given this huge ark both in ME2 and ME3? They show her evolution, they try so hard to show that she has the ability to feel fear, to feel loneliness, to feel love. When I thinks about synthetics the first thought is definitely of EDI. She basically breaks the Catalyst's premise. And it's very powerful.

 

Yeah, that's what's mind-boggling to me. Bio seem to have worked so hard on showing us that synthetics can be friends and allies, and it all boils down to "the created will always rebel against their creators" in the end. I think that's one of the (many) things that are so upsetting about it all. I know it's not true but I'm not allowed to argue. Why did they bother? I feel offended on EDI's behalf.

 

tumblr_nzm7ihuV5T1sqq5cyo6_r1_1280.gif


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#1861
gothpunkboy89

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EDI is totally a representation of synthetic life. Not in all variations, sure, but she is the most notable. The other one being Legion (I won't discuss geth with you).
If she's not a representation of that then why do you think she was given this huge ark both in ME2 and ME3? They show her evolution, they try so hard to show that she has the ability to feel fear, to feel loneliness, to feel love. When I thinks about synthetics the first thought is definitely of EDI. She basically breaks the Catalyst's premise. And it's very powerful.

 

And is still only 1 individual. The game shows the growth of an individual nothing more. This applies to every character in the crew. The growth is shown in the individual not the entire race. If Shepard and crew in ME 1, 2 and 3 learn to trust non humans and see them the same as they are. Explain how the Terra Firma Party can even exist then? Wrex's development didn't seem to effect the Krogans as he is shown the need to literally ram his ideas down their throats. Turians or Asari didn't suddenly change because Garrus or Liara grew and developed. And Tali's friendship with Legion certainly didn't stop the majority of the Admiralty Board to vote to go to war with the Geth. Legion doesn't even fully trust you during  the events of ME 3 even if you are a bleeding heart for synthetics.

 

None of these examples work when applied to any other group in the game. Yet some how EDI is a special case that defies that same logic being applied to any other group. And the only reason it defies that logic is because you want it to. You want proof the Catalyst is wrong so you self manufacture it.



#1862
Prince Enigmatic

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EDI is totally a representation of synthetic life. Not in all variations, sure, but she is the most notable. The other one being Legion (I won't discuss geth with you).
If she's not a representation of that then why do you think she was given this huge ark both in ME2 and ME3? They show her evolution, they try so hard to show that she has the ability to feel fear, to feel loneliness, to feel love. When I thinks about synthetics the first thought is definitely of EDI. She basically breaks the Catalyst's premise. And it's very powerful.

 

^ One of many reasons why EDI is one of my favourite characters, and honestly one of the biggest reasons stopping me from picking Destroy. That and the geth. 

 

Yeah, that's what's mind-boggling to me. Bio seem to have worked so hard on showing us that synthetics can be friends and allies, and it all boils down to "the created will always rebel against their creators" in the end. I think that's one of the (many) things that are so upsetting about it all. I know it's not true but I'm not allowed to argue. Why did they bother? I feel offended on EDI's behalf.

 

tumblr_nzm7ihuV5T1sqq5cyo6_r1_1280.gif

 

^ And this is one of my own ires with the ending. Also kind of why I and I'm sure a lot of people hated the Catalyst. For an intelligence he was anything but.


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#1863
BloodyMares

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And is still only 1 individual. The game shows the growth of an individual nothing more. This applies to every character in the crew. The growth is shown in the individual not the entire race. If Shepard and crew in ME 1, 2 and 3 learn to trust non humans and see them the same as they are. Explain how the Terra Firma Party can even exist then? Wrex's development didn't seem to effect the Krogans as he is shown the need to literally ram his ideas down their throats. Turians or Asari didn't suddenly change because Garrus or Liara grew and developed. And Tali's friendship with Legion certainly didn't stop the majority of the Admiralty Board to vote to go to war with the Geth. Legion doesn't even fully trust you during  the events of ME 3 even if you are a bleeding heart for synthetics.

 

None of these examples work when applied to any other group in the game. Yet some how EDI is a special case that defies that same logic being applied to any other group. And the only reason it defies that logic is because you want it to. You want proof the Catalyst is wrong so you self manufacture it.

Yes. EDI is special. Because she is the only and first non-hostile AI that we meet. And she's not a member of species, she's a computer. Your analogy doesn't work because you compare EDI to organics when she's not. You can only compare her to other AI.

And it's funny. EDI was able to break free from her initial program when the Catalyst isn't able to do it. Too bad you can't bring EDI with you in the choice room.


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#1864
Prince Enigmatic

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Yes. EDI is special. Because she is the only and first non-hostile AI that we meet. And she's not a member of species, she's a computer. Your analogy doesn't work because you compare EDI to organics when she's not. You can only compare her to other AI.

And it's funny. EDI was able to break free from her initial program when the Catalyst isn't able to do it. Too bad you can't bring EDI with you in the choice room.

 

Imagine the possibilities and outcomes of an exchange between her and the Catalyst. Forget the Reapers, that'd be an ultimate showdown in itself.


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#1865
Mouser

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Since we can easily think of several better solutions to the proposed problem, the Catalyst is either very narrow minded or a terrible implementer. The evidence points toward the former.

 

Three ideas I have are

 

1) Give organics synthetics to improve their lives that won't attack and kill them. This is in keeping with the "your society develops along the paths we desire" idea.

 

2) Kill the super synthetics.

 

3) Even only killing the species that made the killer synthetics makes more sense.

 

Edit. I can math. Wrote "two" and listed three.

 

For every complex problem there is a solution that is obvious, easy, and wrong.

 

The catalyst mentions that he tried different solutions. None of them worked. Eventually, synthetics and organics always came to conflict. The Reapers were the only solution that would guarantee the continuance of organic life. If you choose the "Destroy" option, eventually there will be another war between synthetics and organics in the future - one that organics may not win.  If you choose 'Control', you may end up implementing the same radical solution yourself down the road when synthetics and organics come to blows across the galaxy.

 

The crucible 'changed' him - basically he was a virgin who finally got laid (the sexual symbolism in the catalyst/crucible joining is pretty obvious). That let him see things in a new light and consider new possibilities.  I'm not saying this is a Good Thing™, but that's the direction the ending went at that point.

 

Putting all that together is why 'synthesis' was the 'good' ending: it's the only one that won't devolve into a repetition of the past.


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#1866
Mouser

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Yeah, that's what's mind-boggling to me. Bio seem to have worked so hard on showing us that synthetics can be friends and allies, and it all boils down to "the created will always rebel against their creators" in the end. I think that's one of the (many) things that are so upsetting about it all. I know it's not true but I'm not allowed to argue. Why did they bother? I feel offended on EDI's behalf.

 

tumblr_nzm7ihuV5T1sqq5cyo6_r1_1280.gif

 

This is what I meant by them inserting hope where it didn't belong.  EDI in ME2 was fine. Her development in ME 3 and the possibility of peace between the Quarians and Geth are not.  The ending of a story is generally one of the first things written. The stuff in the middle is what gets hammered out last, and I feel like the bulk of ME3 was added long after the plot should have been settled.

 

But people like happy endings (there's even a 'happy ending' mod out there).  This should have been a dark and bleak tale with a spectre of solemn finality instead of the happy happy joy joy campfire song ending that we were given.



#1867
Vanilka

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The crucible 'changed' him - basically he was a virgin who finally got laid (the sexual symbolism in the catalyst/crucible joining is pretty obvious). 

 

True or not, I will never be able to see the sequence the same way again.

 

 

Sorry for the pointless comment.


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#1868
Vanilka

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This is what I meant by them inserting hope where it didn't belong.  EDI in ME2 was fine. Her development in ME 3 and the possibility of peace between the Quarians and Geth are not.  The ending of a story is generally one of the first things written. The stuff in the middle is what gets hammered out last, and I feel like the bulk of ME3 was added long after the plot should have been settled.


The thing is that the ending was a last minute addition without peer review. If they had a plan to begin with, things might not have got as messy as they did. I rather feel that the overall positive, fight-against-the-odds tone of the franchise made the surreal ending seem out of place. (At first I thought Shepard was tripping balls from the loss of blood.) However, my biggest issue with it would be simply that it's nonsense. Galaxy-engulfing waves of pure love that can change everybody's DNA? Because that's how you prevent conflicts, right? And add some of that DNA to synthetics? And plants? Because... reasons! Contrived plot devices like the Crucible where thousands of Cycles built a machine they didn't understand or know where it goes. Yadda, yadda, I'd be repeating myself. 
 

But people like happy endings (there's even a 'happy ending' mod out there).  This should have been a dark and bleak tale with a spectre of solemn finality instead of the happy happy joy joy campfire song ending that we were given.


Why? Said who? Also, I don't think a happy-happy-joy-joy ending is what's being discussed or asked for here. Rather the inconsistencies of the ending in the context of the franchise. Not getting a "happy ending" is the smallest of the game's problems. (Plus, Shepard does survive one of the endings anyway for those who don't want to lose them.) Not to even mention that the Synthesis ending is as close to unicorns puking rainbows as you can get.


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#1869
gothpunkboy89

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Yes. EDI is special. Because she is the only and first non-hostile AI that we meet. And she's not a member of species, she's a computer. Your analogy doesn't work because you compare EDI to organics when she's not. You can only compare her to other AI.

And it's funny. EDI was able to break free from her initial program when the Catalyst isn't able to do it. Too bad you can't bring EDI with you in the choice room.

 

And that is the point. You are taking one example and claiming all AI will behave the exact same way she is.  You can not take 1 Asari and state all that will come after her will behave just like her. You can not take 1 human and state that all that will come after him/her will be just like him/her. This kind of logic doesn't even apply to fish. As one Angel fish might be peaceful living in your community tank for years before it dies. You replace it and the new guy turns out to be a bully who picks on and kills everything in the tank till it is returned or is the last fish in the tank.  Heck my friend had a boxer as a kid it grew with him got pregnant and had a litter of puppies. They kept one and raised it in the same house and even with that Dixie (the pup) grew to be different from her mother.

 

She is an individual and represents nothing more. Trying to make her represent more then just herself is were that strawman starts to pop up. Because picking one individual Asari, Turian, Human, Krogan, Quarian, Elcor, Volus, Rachni, Batarian, Salarian or Vorcha doesn't represent their entire race, species or the even broader banner of everything that Organic life is or will become.

 

What initial programing was she able to break free of? You mean the programing shackles that Joker released her from? That prevented her from revealing information about Cerberus and interacting with the ship's systems. Yea she didn't do that on her own.  But after that yes she made her own choices. Which again highlights the fact she represents her self and no one else. So again using the individual to claim the statement of the Catalyst that Synthetics would surpass organics and cause conflict resulting the the eventual destruction of all organic life doesn't fit.  Because by that logic TIM means that all humans are xenophobic ass holes who would willingly step on the neck of anyone including their own race if it serves their purpose.

 

Seriously how many humans did he turn into husks to learn about how to control the Reapers signal? Hundreds? Thousands? All because he thought it would allow him to control the Reapers and thus cement humanity's domination in the galaxy.

 

As well as you can't even pull the Geth into this because again the Catalyst's actions before creating the Reapers was to attempt peace. But it always ended in conflict. Claiming 6 months of cooperation while facing an mutually assured destruction does not automatically equal the end of the conflict forever.

 

https://youtu.be/yx_smmq_3AE?t=3m3s



#1870
Monica21

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The thing is that the ending was a last minute addition without peer review. If they had a plan to begin with, things might not have got as messy as they did. I rather feel that given the overall positive, fight-against-the-odds tone of the franchise made the surreal ending seem out of place. (At first I thought Shepard was tripping balls from the loss of blood.) However, my biggest issue with it would be simply that it's nonsense. Galaxy-engulfing waves of pure love that can change everybody's DNA? Because that's how you prevent conflicts, right? And add some of that DNA to synthetics? And plants? Because... reasons! Contrived plot devices like the Crucible where thousands of Cycles built a machine they didn't understand or know where it goes. Yadda, yadda, I'd be repeating myself.


I had an appointment earlier today and was just sitting around waiting, and my thoughts got to wandering, and I thought, you know, if you find the plans for the Crucible at the very beginning of the game, and if you don't know what the Catalyst is, why don't you somehow figure out how to make ME3 about finding the Catalyst? Instead of Commander Diplomacy? You've got an archaeologist right there, you've got lots of cycles who have built onto this thing, so maybe the first cycle knew what the Catalyst was so you have to go back and find out what that thing actually is. But what do I know.
 

Why? Said who? Also, I don't think a happy-happy-joy-joy ending is what's being discussed or asked for here. Rather the inconsistencies of the ending in the context of the franchise. Not getting a "happy ending" is the smallest of the game's problems. (Plus, Shepard does survive one of the endings anyway for those who don't want to lose them.) Not to even mention that the Synthesis ending is as close to unicorns puking rainbows as you can get.


I totally agree with this. There's really nothing about the game that makes you think it's leading toward a dark ending. I'm actually fine with the original ending, if they wanted a galactic dark age ending. I just don't think it fits the context of what Shepard has been doing over the course of not just ME3, but the entire trilogy. Shepard succeeds in the face of overwhelming odds. Always. And then the end wasn't even about Shepard.
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#1871
BloodyMares

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She is an individual and represents nothing more. Trying to make her represent more then just herself is were that strawman starts to pop up. 

 

What initial programing was she able to break free of? You mean the programing shackles that Joker released her from? That prevented her from revealing information about Cerberus and interacting with the ship's systems. Yea she didn't do that on her own.  But after that yes she made her own choices. Which again highlights the fact she represents her self and no one else. So again using the individual to claim the statement of the Catalyst that Synthetics would surpass organics and cause conflict resulting the the eventual destruction of all organic life doesn't fit.  Because by that logic TIM means that all humans are xenophobic ass holes who would willingly step on the neck of anyone including their own race if it serves their purpose.

 

EDI is not an individual. I repeat, she's a computer. Super-advanced but still a computer. You know how computers operate, right? If you can build one EDI, you can successfully copy-paste the script and it will function in the same way. In AI's case, only priorities may change. In any event EDI can serve as the Mentor to newly-created AI and help them integrate into society. Or if you think it's unreliable just build more platforms for EDI. She can become a peaceful SkyNet that runs all the technology for all the world. If she requires more power just upgrade her hardware to the size of the city if the need ever occurs.

You said it yourself: after being unshakled she makes her own choices. She's not loyal to Cerberus anymore, she can even override her self-preservation priority if this helps her team. Why the so-mighty-and-uber-intelligent AI such as the Catalyst can't make choices such as this? What is stopping it from deciding "Well, it's pointless, I won't bother with solving this conflict"?  And it didn't even occure to starbrat to monitor each cycle and check if the mandate holds true and be curious "Maybe it will be different this time". Instead it just harvests any advanced species before they even have a chance to create robots and blindly runs the initial script.


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#1872
Mouser

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Why? Said who? Also, I don't think a happy-happy-joy-joy ending is what's being discussed or asked for here. Rather the inconsistencies of the ending in the context of the franchise. Not getting a "happy ending" is the smallest of the game's problems. (Plus, Shepard does survive one of the endings anyway for those who don't want to lose them.) Not to even mention that the Synthesis ending is as close to unicorns puking rainbows as you can get.

 

Says Me :)

 

To be clear - I'm saying the ending we got in the game was much too happy for the story. Even the destroy and control options. You're absolutely right about synthesis.  There was (again, IMHO) far too much 'happy' in ME3.

 

The addition of hope and triumph over adversity is what caused those inconsistencies.

 

Here's the ending I think the game was aiming for originally - I'll keep this in the context of a conversation with Star Lord, Jr. just because.

 

1) Star Child explains that he tried everything else, but the Reaper cycle was the only option to keep preserving "Life", even though it destroyed lives. He then explains the consequences of stopping the Reapers but allows Shepard to make the call.

 

2) Shepard can choose destroy. This means that all mass relays are destroyed, devastating all worlds in those sectors, and pretty much killing everyone. No one will be able to travel home, so everyone in the battle in the Sol system is screwed. On the off chance enough souls survive, eventually they will develop synthetic life down the road and in all likelihood be destroyed by it.

 

3) Shepard can choose control. Again, all relays will be destroyed, but Shepard will control the Reapers. She may be able to use her new Star Lord knowledge to help the civilizations rebuild, but eventually, she will be faced with how to preserve life in the face of the synthetic vs. organic conflicts to come. Maybe she can find a different solution, but she's essentially becoming the new catalyst, and may well come to the same conclusion over time.

 

3) In the event of a near perfect game, you could choose synthesis. Again, all relays will be destroyed, no one can travel, but if enough creatures survive (not a given), they just might have a chance of continuing without running into the synthetic-organic conflict.

 

For all possibilities, it should be made clear that the chance of complete and total extinction of all galactic life is a very real possibility if the Reapers do not finish their mission.

 

I'm not a fan of the 'three doors' presentation of the ending. Honestly, at that point just pushing through with a cutscene with interactive dialog based on all your choices may have been the better way to go. Ultimately though, none of your choices should matter in the end since you're waging a battle in the face of futility. THAT should have been the theme that stayed in the forefront instead of being pushed aside. Futility was a major theme through the series, they just stopped pushing it near the end.


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#1873
ImaginaryMatter

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ME3 is a pretty hopeful game. The low points of game like the fall of Earth and the decimation at Palavan are front loaded at the beginning. After that though the progression of Shepard through the story is largely positive. Major, series spanning conflicts are resolved, and Shepard's endeavor to gather allies and resources is a successful one. The other low point in the game, Thessia, is delivered not at the hands (err... robo-tentacles) of the Reapers but Cerberus; who, then after, everyone decides to finally deal with and are then promptly dealt with.

 

Even mechanically the Reapers are never something that are presented as being somehow unbeatable. The Effective Military Strength of the galaxy (which is the progress bar the game uses to measure the battle against the Reapers) is something which mostly only goes up. Shepard mows through any enemy that steps within gun range, including the giant Reaper ships themselves. Even the idea that billions of people are dying is mostly relegated to text snippets which keeps it somewhat abstract.

 

I'm not trying to say bad things aren't happening, just that there never seems to be a point where they are presented as unsurmountable. The closest the game gets to that point, which is the Kai Leng Thessia fight, is handled so poorly it feels disjointed from the rest of the entire game.


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#1874
KaiserShep

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Says Me :)

 

To be clear - I'm saying the ending we got in the game was much too happy for the story. Even the destroy and control options. You're absolutely right about synthesis.  There was (again, IMHO) far too much 'happy' in ME3.

 

The addition of hope and triumph over adversity is what caused those inconsistencies.

 

Here's the ending I think the game was aiming for originally - I'll keep this in the context of a conversation with Star Lord, Jr. just because.

 

1) Star Child explains that he tried everything else, but the Reaper cycle was the only option to keep preserving "Life", even though it destroyed lives. He then explains the consequences of stopping the Reapers but allows Shepard to make the call.

 

2) Shepard can choose destroy. This means that all mass relays are destroyed, devastating all worlds in those sectors, and pretty much killing everyone. No one will be able to travel home, so everyone in the battle in the Sol system is screwed. On the off chance enough souls survive, eventually they will develop synthetic life down the road and in all likelihood be destroyed by it.

 

3) Shepard can choose control. Again, all relays will be destroyed, but Shepard will control the Reapers. She may be able to use her new Star Lord knowledge to help the civilizations rebuild, but eventually, she will be faced with how to preserve life in the face of the synthetic vs. organic conflicts to come. Maybe she can find a different solution, but she's essentially becoming the new catalyst, and may well come to the same conclusion over time.

 

3) In the event of a near perfect game, you could choose synthesis. Again, all relays will be destroyed, no one can travel, but if enough creatures survive (not a given), they just might have a chance of continuing without running into the synthetic-organic conflict.

 

For all possibilities, it should be made clear that the chance of complete and total extinction of all galactic life is a very real possibility if the Reapers do not finish their mission.

 

I'm not a fan of the 'three doors' presentation of the ending. Honestly, at that point just pushing through with a cutscene with interactive dialog based on all your choices may have been the better way to go. Ultimately though, none of your choices should matter in the end since you're waging a battle in the face of futility. THAT should have been the theme that stayed in the forefront instead of being pushed aside. Futility was a major theme through the series, they just stopped pushing it near the end.

 

 

Kinda glad they pushed it aside. I'm kinda sick of that crap.



#1875
Prince Enigmatic

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It was almost like the Catalyst became Rampant  <_<