3598 réponses à ce sujet

[wanako]

the ending sucked and will forever suck. (this is my nice, forum-friendly way to say it)

 

that is all.

 

*4 years later, still salty*

[Ieldra]

the ending sucked and will forever suck. (this is my nice, forum-friendly way to say it)

The ending has problems, but the true problems go deeper. Ever since the start of ME2, the main plots were written by someone who...

 

(1) ...didn't have any interest in facilitating roleplaying, but only in what he wanted the player to do.

(2) ...used the games to dominate the player to favor presentation of his favorite characters and faction, and because he had no idea how to make them smarter, he made the player character more stupid.

(3) ...had no idea how to make characters talk competently about a topic. All he knows is drama and emotional appeal.

(4) ...used the games to present stupidity as profundity,

(5) ...replaced careful plot writing with sequences of short-term drama, shock effects and supposed coolness.

 

I could go on for quite a bit.

 

So in spite of some shining moments of videogame storytelling, usually in the side plots, large parts of ME2 and most of ME3 are a mess of disparate elements put together by an incompetent writer, and the ending is just the culmination of everything that went wrong before. As bad as ME1 was in gameplay and how ugly it looked at times, I wish the trilogy had continued in its spirit.

[Dantriges]

Geth are relevant but not for the reason people keep quoting. Peace is only achieved with the Geth during a galactic wide invasion of super advanced race of space cuddle fish. This forcibly wields them together to avoid mutual destruction. This is something under normal circumstances would never happen. And this seems to be the part people can not separate. Things that change because of the Reapers and things that would have happened without them.

The geth were pretty content to just hang around for 300 years and build a dyson swarm. If they had built it somewhere else than Tikkun*, even the conflict with the quarians could have been circumvented. Most peope pointed out, that there was peace between AI and organics just before the whole final conflict, but there also was this whole 300 years of "we don´t give a sh** about killing organics unless they bother us."

The whole "we just made peace" thing is a problem, people have with the story. It´s an odd thing to introduce when the whole thing was about synthetics always killing organics. It dilutes what you wanna tell.

*which was more or less completely stupid as they wanted to preserve Rannoch. Even if they build it beyond Rannoch´s orbit, they couldn´t use it for buldingmaterials.
 

No you just have to realize how pointless this all his. How inferior organics are and how pointless it is for them to be around wasting resources. Not really a waste you spend 10,000 dollars and in turn make 100,000,000 dollars not really a waste. There would be no organic's wasting resources, polluting planets, harming each other for no reason, harming other creatures for no reason, killing each other for no reason.

So, we are assuming that future humans and alien species just behave like conteporary society? They are spacefaring, they probably know how to recycle. You better do, when wasting stuff, that is not easily replaced, can actually kill you. Aliens could be completely different, they evolved on a different planet with different environment. But let´s go with that assumptio, it´s fiction written for ceontemporary readers after all.

The galaxy is a huge place. Even the resources in our solar system completely dwarfs the resources we currently have at our disposal on Earth. If the machines are made to operate in space just fine, why should they care about organics polluting planets? There are planets out there which are more hazardous in their pristine state, than a heavily polluted Earth.
Stuff you listed, like diesease,

Why should they care what organics do in their part of the galaxy? Do they have plans with these resources? Why should they waste their resources to wage genocidal war on organics? Warfare is a pretty resource intensive endeavour, hunting down every last survior even more so. And if you resort to bombing a garden world to kill all sapient organics there, you rendered it uninhabitable for some time at least, destroying its biosphere or even atmosphere. Quite a waste.
 

I project no emotion. I supose I could but the reasons I give why organics might not be held in the highest regards to anyone so far haven't been contested.

The stuff you listed are things, we view negatively. Why should an AI do that? Perhaps they view it as ineffective means to establish consense, curb excessive elements or allocate resources but that´s no reason to kill someone. You need emotions to feel offended by it.

[rossler]

I will admit that my example might have been a bit simplistic, but the fact remains that the Catalyst is in control of the situation. He knows what the Crucible is capable of. What it can do. Evidenced by his willingness/eagerness to use it.

Only imagination sets limits to what the Crucible is able to do. Just look at Synthesis. I can imagine many scenarios worse for the galaxy at large than us going out fighting.

 

I'm inclined to believe that the Crucible controls him, not the other way around. In addition, the state of the Crucible is determined by your EMS score. So technically, Shepard is in control of the situation.

[voteDC]

Hey, I have to simplify it so that even you can understand it. It's about self-determination. The peace may not last but it will be good while it does and we'll deal with the conflict when it comes. We don't need the Reapers.

And in another post you say there have been periods of peace so obviously it does stop the fighting for periods. However, I mean it just for this particular case.

 

The Protheans were also winning the Metacon War, so in order to preserve advanced organic life, why didn't the Reapers sweep in and help the Protheans win?

"Who were those masked giant robots?".

Through design or error I believe the Reapers will harvest no matter what once the races reach a certain level, a technological peak where the species of the galaxy may have been able to overtake them.

Did the Reapers invade because of a war the Protheans were winning or was it because they were on the cusp of unlocking Relay technology.

[Vanilka]

the ending sucked and will forever suck. (this is my nice, forum-friendly way to say it)

 

that is all.

 

*4 years later, still salty*

 

Yeah, there's 81 pages worth of salt just in this thread, countless others elsewhere. We should sell it for profit. Then use the profit to start over with what ME1 set up.

[Natureguy85]

Put it on steak!

Well, I told Monica that I do owe ME3 a debt for being so bad. It was the... *sigh* catalyst for me to dig deeper into stories and really understand them where before i merely enjoyed them.

[sveners]

I'm inclined to believe that the Crucible controls him, not the other way around. In addition, the state of the Crucible is determined by your EMS score. So technically, Shepard is in control of the situation.

Speculation after the fact does not really help much. What position of power do you see Shepard in? How is Shepard in control when s/he knows nothing about the Crucible (capabilities, potential or implementation)?

Everything hinges on the word of the Catalyst. Ergo, it is in control. Not Shepard. "The Crucible changed me, created new possibilities" Well okay then, I will buy whatever you are selling me!.........?

[General TSAR]

Guys, guys don't you understand?

 

When fire burns, is it at war?

 

How can we argue with such irrefutable logic?

[Iakus]

Guys, guys don't you understand?

 

When fire burns, is it at war?

 

How can we argue with such irrefutable logic?

Who cares?  If you're caught in a fire, you need to find a way to save yourself!  Doesn't matter if you are "at war" with the flames!

[Eryri]

I will admit that my example might have been a bit simplistic, but the fact remains that the Catalyst is in control of the situation. He knows what the Crucible is capable of. What it can do. Evidenced by his willingness/eagerness to use it.
Only imagination sets limits to what the Crucible is able to do. Just look at Synthesis. I can imagine many scenarios worse for the galaxy at large than us going out fighting.

Particularly when this insanely powerful device was knocked up in a few months out of scrap by people who didn't quite understand what it was going to do or how it was going to do it. Suppose this fantabulous contrapulator had a blue screen of death in the middle of reformatting everything's DNA? Especially considering it will also affect the cave-dwelling folks on uncharted worlds that would otherwise enjoy 50,000 years of blissful ignorance before the hammer falls on them.

[rossler]

Speculation after the fact does not really help much. What position of power do you see Shepard in? How is Shepard in control when s/he knows nothing about the Crucible (capabilities, potential or implementation)?

Everything hinges on the word of the Catalyst. Ergo, it is in control. Not Shepard. "The Crucible changed me, created new possibilities" Well okay then, I will buy whatever you are selling me!.........?

 

You have control, because you can shoot the tube, thus rejecting him and destroying the Reapers at the same time.

[sveners]

You have control, because you can shoot the tube, thus rejecting him and destroying the Reapers at the same time.

And how do you know that?

[Mouser]

Hey, I have to simplify it so that even you can understand it. It's about self-determination. The peace may not last but it will be good while it does and we'll deal with the conflict when it comes. We don't need the Reapers.

And in another post you say there have been periods of peace so obviously it does stop the fighting for periods. However, I mean it just for this particular case.

 

 

 

 

 

The Reapers are inspired by Lovecraft, but Mass Effect is not a horror game nor a horror story. The problem is that you're conflating two uses of the word hope. You're arguing that there was never any chance of defeating the Reapers and using that to make a claim about the tone, which is different. In terms of there being no hope, as in no way or chance of beating the Reapers, you're right. However that's because ME2 did nothing.

 

However, in terms of tone or feeling, the series was full of hope. Shepard was adamant that s/he'd find a way to stop the Reapers. Characters kept telling Shepard they were going to win. Nobody was ever full of despair.

 

So your issue shouldn't be with the Quarian or Genophage arcs, since those went the way they were always going to go. Your problem should be with the Catalyst suddenly being dropped in as a solution with no build up or investigation. And I would agree with that complaint.

 

I guess this is one of those things we may never know exactly what went wrong and why.  The "dark energy" thing Tali was investigating sounded promising (and VERY Xenosaga), but that was dropped with never another mention. Was the Catalyst a late addition, or were the ME3 plotlines late to the party? Whichever way it happened, they don't jive with one another.

 

I know it's not a "horror" game, but it does borrow some elements from that genre. Maybe they tried to borrow from too many genres and stories :shrug:

 

From where I'm sitting the overarching theme was "futility" right up until somewhere in Mass Effect 3 when good things started happening for no good reason. Sure, Shepard keeps fighting the good fight, winning Pyrrhic victories and watching the galaxy ignore all the evidence of the threat coming to destroy them all until the Reapers finally show up in force.

 

Even in ME3, we finally confirm what we already suspected or knew - all the species of the council are self-serving bastards. Between the genophage, the bomb on Tuchanka, and the Asari hiding the Prothean relic that was specifically left to warn everyone about the Reapers to avoid precisely the mess we're in, nobody is really deserving of any sympathy.

 

All the game had to do was stay consistent with the ME2 DLC and show that the destruction of the relays torched everything in those sectors, so the only survivors in the galaxy would be those located far enough away from any relay station. That would have been a "win", but at a terrible, perhaps unrecoverable cost.

[rossler]

And how do you know that?

 

Watch the cutscene when shooting the tube. The kid disappears immediately.  Reapers get destroyed by the Crucible. 

 

You win. Reapers lose. 

[sveners]

Watch the cutscene when shooting the tube. The kid disappears immediately. Reapers get destroyed by the Crucible.

You win. Reapers lose.

I am not sure If you may have missed the start of my posts. Shepard/You have no idea what to do. The Catalyst tells you what to do. It tells you what options are available, and how make them reality.

Shepard/You do not control anything. The Catalyst is in control because it can tell you whatever it wants. You have to choose to trust it.

[oddball_bg]

By reading more and more posts I start to understand one simple thing:You just don't deserve an ending like that!Don't worry ME Andromeda will play it safe because of whiners like all of you!

[Ieldra]

By reading more and more posts I start to understand one simple thing:You just don't deserve an ending like that!Don't worry ME Andromeda will play it safe because of whiners like all of you!

You are quite correct. We did not deserve an ending like that. Nobody who likes stories deserves a narratively and thematically inconsistent one, full of cheap drama at the expense of common sense, infused with scientific and cultural ignorance, and topped with an ending that brings all of those elements together.

 

As someone who likes the idea of the outcomes as such, it is rather sad to see things so mangled by incompetence that it's impossible to gain any satisfaction from it.

[Vanilka]

Oh, I agree. No matter my crimes, I didn't deserve this amount of brain damage. Nobody does.

 

Now by all means, take my ME3 ending if you feel deserving of it. I don't want it. Take all of my ME3 endings. I will give them for free and add a box of chocolates for getting me rid of it. (Actually, I have a mod that removes all the Catalyst scenes completely. So much better.   )

 

You know, back when it was all fresh for me (yet old news for the fandom) and I thought I'd write a review to get it all off my chest, I made a few of these to accompany it...

 

Spoiler

Collection of some of my favourite points by MrBtongue and Smudboy, mostly focusing on the stuff I hated most, because it was getting way too long without adding the other crap...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And here's what my Shepard thinks about it...

 

 

Excuse the errors if there are any, there's really no script available, so I had to catch it from the vids.

 

 

I've never posted the review and I likely never will because I felt like I should let go, because it's not worth getting upset over any more (and I'm pretty sure BW gets the concept at this point). So now I'm mostly making fun of it and discussing it when I feel like it. All that's left is hope that guys from BioWare learnt from this and will never make important content without peer review and proper knowledge of their own games and fanbase again.

[rossler]

A better solution would be to not purchase their games anymore if you don't like how this one turned out. Some people never learn though, and keep buying up products they don't like or have been hosed in the past. 

 

Bioware will keep making their games they want to make, and people will choose whether or not to buy them. That's how it works. 

[Vanilka]

And you proceed to misunderstand and draw incorrect conclusions. I suppose some things never change.

[rossler]

I'm just not agreeing with you. 

[General TSAR]

By reading more and more posts I start to understand one simple thing:You just don't deserve an ending like that!Don't worry ME Andromeda will play it safe because of whiners like all of you!

You mean ME:A will have an ending not written on a napkin? An ending that doesn't come from left field with little to no set up? An ending and villain that makes logical sense in-universe?

 

How will we be able to cope with such things?

[Vanilka]

I'm just not agreeing with you. 

 

I think that part is fine. I just think we could and perhaps should stop making passive aggressive comments towards one another. Comments about people whining when they're just speaking their mind. Arrogant comments about people not understanding anything and being unable to read, just because they have a different opinion, particularly without explaining what is wrong with their perception of things. I sincerely do not think it adds anything to the discussion at all. I think Mouser and Daemul are great examples of posters that have different opinions and can handle having a discussion about it. Sure, we'll always end up in a disagreement, but is that really such a bad thing?

 

And, hey, having trouble with some parts of the franchise doesn't mean I don't enjoy playing it, okay? In fact, I have completed three full playthroughs and am planning more. I've had a great time. I've poured a lot of money into the Mass Effect franchise. (Not to even mention the Dragon Age franchise which I also love. I've bought a lot of BW's older games, too.) I've bought the N7 hoodie that looks exactly like ME3 Shepard's from BW's store. I've bought a T-shirt with Spectre motif. (And it freaking cost me since the US/Canada is far, far away from where I live.) In my free time, I take screenshots of the games (tons of them), I tweak it, I record it, I make gifs of the fun parts. By all intents and purposes, I'm BioWare's b♡tch. And you know what? Maybe because of that I care so darn much about what I perceive as pretty fatal flaws with the franchise. Just because I criticise something and feel strongly about it, that doesn't mean I also don't enjoy it. If I hated the games so much, would I be wasting my time in numerous discussions around here?

 

So can we please be friends? Or at least nice to one another? Tell me why you like the games, but don't tell me to leave, don't tell me that I'm stupid or a child or have bad taste for not thinking and feeling the same way.

[rossler]

I've never made any comments about whining. Or saying people were too stupid to understand the ending. Or any passive aggressive comments. In fact, suggesting to be wary of your next purchase from Bioware if you feel you got hosed, is not passive aggressive. It's more assertive, because a passive aggressive person usually tends to hide stuff and not let their true feelings be known.