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Mass Effect 3's ending is absolutely brilliant!


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#2026
gothpunkboy89

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Hey, I have to simplify it so that even you can understand it. It's about self-determination. The peace may not last but it will be good while it does and we'll deal with the conflict when it comes. We don't need the Reapers.

And in another post you say there have been periods of peace so obviously it does stop the fighting for periods. However, I mean it just for this particular case.

 

You completely missed the context of give peace a chance post and my reply to it. The context was that if peace was given a chance it would solve the problem. Which history shows that no peace being given a chance only delays conflict. Never solves it. Delaying the apocalypse isn't the same as stopping it. By that logic the ME series shouldn't have advanced beyond ME 1.

 

Self-determination is an idiotic argument to use. Particularly when those choices will effect billions of people instead of the individual. A single person chooses to work out till their body covered in muscles is self determination and that is perfectly OK. That person then forcing every person on the planet from the young to the old to follow their workout/diet set up to the letter with no variation to account for age or body set up is quite another. 

 

You don't seem to understand just how intertwined technology is with every day life in the ME universe or how it is growing intertwined with our own lives. Within the game there are plenty of examples of Shep and crew hacking secure doors with their omni tool. Which for them is equal to our smart phones only better because they can create a knife to stab people in ME 3. Even taking into account Shepard would have a special omni tool given only to specters or other high level N7 program graduates. AI's would be capable of the same level of decryption and hacking ability only able to do it even faster due to their ability to think and react is limited only to what ever physical media they are using. Which since it is electrical signals is near the speed of light.  The amount of ways an AI could mess stuff up is staggering when you take that into account. Even in a space battle war ships rely on VI's to give them targeting solutions. Hack that to alter it or even simply crash the VI and delete it and now that massive war ship is shooting from the hip. And when you are dealing with several hundred miles between two ships  a few degrees off and you miss completely. And holy heck if they get into engine control systems. Not even simply blowing it up by overloading the engine core but forcing it into a position to be broad sided or simply block/take a hit from an friendly ship.

 

Even if fixing that only takes 5 minutes to show down systems, restore back up and get them back online again that is 5 minutes the ship is incapable of participating in the battle and is for all intents and purposes dead in the water. And even if they restore it there is no way to ensure it couldn't be hacked again. BioWare seriously downplayed the hacking capability of a fully formed AI. Save when it came to EDI. They let her go full out to help Shepard but always dumb down everything else.



#2027
gothpunkboy89

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You are quite correct. We did not deserve an ending like that. Nobody who likes stories deserves a narratively and thematically inconsistent one, full of cheap drama at the expense of common sense, infused with scientific and cultural ignorance, and topped with an ending that brings all of those elements together.

 

As someone who likes the idea of the outcomes as such, it is rather sad to see things so mangled by incompetence that it's impossible to gain any satisfaction from it.

 

So what parts were culturally ignorance? I'm not even going to argue with scientific because this is a game that has technology that can alter the mass of an object based on the electrical charge applied to it. So it pays the same amount of lip service to being scientifically accurate as any other space game.



#2028
Vanilka

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I've never made any comments about whining. Or saying people were too stupid to understand the ending. Or any passive aggressive comments. In fact, suggesting to be wary of your next purchase from Bioware if you feel you got hosed, is not passive aggressive. It's more assertive, because a passive aggressive person usually tends to hide stuff and not let their true feelings be known.


I was talking in general. I believe you know how things go around here.
 
How does the latter add anything to the discussion? This is where my second paragraph came in. Plus, how do you know some people are not going to do exactly that? Then that's stating the obvious. Maybe some people truly are not going to buy BW's next game after the disappointment. So considering that, how does such comment actually change anything about the discussion we're having right now or anybody's opinion? All things considered, I haven't seen anybody claim they are going to buy another game.



#2029
Mouser

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A better solution would be to not purchase their games anymore if you don't like how this one turned out. Some people never learn though, and keep buying up products they don't like or have been hosed in the past. 

 

Bioware will keep making their games they want to make, and people will choose whether or not to buy them. That's how it works. 

 

1) Most of us here love the games - at least, the first 119 hours or so. The fact that the ending is still discussed at all is resounding proof of that.  Nobody keeps talking about bad endings in games where the whole experience sucked.

 

2) BioWare apparently has learned their lesson, or at least some lessons from Mass Effect. Dragon Age Inquisition would be the proof of that.


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#2030
gothpunkboy89

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1) Most of us here love the games - at least, the first 119 hours or so. The fact that the ending is still discussed at all is resounding proof of that.  Nobody keeps talking about bad endings in games where the whole experience sucked.

 

2) BioWare apparently has learned their lesson, or at least some lessons from Mass Effect. Dragon Age Inquisition would be the proof of that.

 

Well that and compared to DA 2 they had more development time.

 



#2031
Eryri

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You mean ME:A will have an ending not written on a napkin? An ending that doesn't come from left field with little to no set up? An ending and villain that makes logical sense in-universe?

How will we be able to cope with such things?

By watching Michael Bay movies while beating ourselves with sticks? You know, just to balance things out.
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#2032
rossler

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1) Most of us here love the games - at least, the first 119 hours or so. The fact that the ending is still discussed at all is resounding proof of that.  Nobody keeps talking about bad endings in games where the whole experience sucked.

 

2) BioWare apparently has learned their lesson, or at least some lessons from Mass Effect. Dragon Age Inquisition would be the proof of that.

 

I don't personally believe the ending was bad enough to sour the whole experience, but that's just me. 


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#2033
gothpunkboy89

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I don't personally believe the ending was bad enough to sour the whole experience, but that's just me. 

 

A lot of people think like that. More and more I find ME fans on other games or other forums the more and more I realize how much a minority a lot of these players who complain really are.  Oh there are people with various issues with the game but none of them seem to take it to the extreme level quite a few players here seem to take it to.


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#2034
rossler

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Most of the feedback that they took from the fans to improve their future products was a tiny amount. As they've openly stated they don't develop their games via committee. 

 

I didn't enjoy the Reaper mini game on the galaxy map, but I live with it. Or the lack of heavy weapons (unlike ME2 where you can always have one equipped). Same goes for people's hate about the child at the end. I just pretend he doesn't exist and go and shoot the tube. I never asked Bioware to patch it out though.

 

A lot of people think like that. More and more I find ME fans on other games or other forums the more and more I realize how much a minority a lot of these players who complain really are.  Oh there are people with various issues with the game but none of them seem to take it to the extreme level quite a few players here seem to take it to.

 

Some see Mass Effect as more than just a game.

 

This whole thing is kind of like Annie Wilkes and Misery, in a way. 


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#2035
Natureguy85

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I'm inclined to believe that the Crucible controls him, not the other way around. In addition, the state of the Crucible is determined by your EMS score. So technically, Shepard is in control of the situation.

 

No, Shepard may be responsible in that way, but has no actual control because s/he has no knowledge about any of that. EMS exists for us, but not for Shepard. S/he has no idea what "enough" or "minimum readiness" are. And while EMS is divided into categories, there are no category requirements; all that matters is the total. How exactly are ground troops helping the Crucible?

 

 

 

I guess this is one of those things we may never know exactly what went wrong and why.  The "dark energy" thing Tali was investigating sounded promising (and VERY Xenosaga), but that was dropped with never another mention. Was the Catalyst a late addition, or were the ME3 plotlines late to the party? Whichever way it happened, they don't jive with one another.

 

I know it's not a "horror" game, but it does borrow some elements from that genre. Maybe they tried to borrow from too many genres and stories :shrug:

 

From where I'm sitting the overarching theme was "futility" right up until somewhere in Mass Effect 3 when good things started happening for no good reason. Sure, Shepard keeps fighting the good fight, winning Pyrrhic victories and watching the galaxy ignore all the evidence of the threat coming to destroy them all until the Reapers finally show up in force.

 

Even in ME3, we finally confirm what we already suspected or knew - all the species of the council are self-serving bastards. Between the genophage, the bomb on Tuchanka, and the Asari hiding the Prothean relic that was specifically left to warn everyone about the Reapers to avoid precisely the mess we're in, nobody is really deserving of any sympathy.

 

All the game had to do was stay consistent with the ME2 DLC and show that the destruction of the relays torched everything in those sectors, so the only survivors in the galaxy would be those located far enough away from any relay station. That would have been a "win", but at a terrible, perhaps unrecoverable cost.

 

Oh, we know. The Catalyst was not even a thought at the time of Mass Effect 1. It is a retcon. Usually retcons are bad. Once in awhile you can pull them off, such as with Vader being Luke's father, but it's difficult. The foundation needs to be laid down and the characters need to deal with it, as they do with the "point of view" conversation in Return of the Jedi. I don't know if it was you or someone else, but someone recently talked about the ending being something that is finished early on. That's somewhat true, though I'd say the ending is at least thought through in general, though it may not be fully fleshed out. However, that isn't automatically the case in a multi-part work. You should have part one's ending thought out when making part one, but you don't have to have part 3's ending fully done. To point at Star Wars again because it's awesome, A New Hope wrapped its own story up very well, but they hadn't done the ultimate end of Return of the Jedi at that time. On the other hand, the Genophage and Rannoch plotlines were established in the first game and expanded in the second. While the details of how weren't known, they came to predictable outcomes.

 

The ending does seem to have tried to borrow from several other works, but they didn't do a good job with any of them.

 

For the bold line, I'd encourage you to go back and play the first game because "futility" was Saren's argument and he lost. Shepard never had a Pyrrhic victory, except maybe on a personal level if you lost a lot of crew members on the suicide mission. Now had the endings actually followed through with what Arrival established and using the Crucible destroyed the Relays and thereby destroyed every system with a Relay, including the Sol System and the entire Victory Fleet, then that might be a Pyrrhic Victory. Now, there is one argument to be made for your futility idea, which is Saren's question; "Is submission not preferable to extinction?" The answer was a resounding "no." The story could have been about the fight being worthwhile, even if you lose.

 

 

 

 

By reading more and more posts I start to understand one simple thing:You just don't deserve an ending like that!Don't worry ME Andromeda will play it safe because of whiners like all of you!

 

You're right, we didn't deserve the crappy ending we got.

 

 

 

 

A better solution would be to not purchase their games anymore if you don't like how this one turned out. Some people never learn though, and keep buying up products they don't like or have been hosed in the past. 

 

Bioware will keep making their games they want to make, and people will choose whether or not to buy them. That's how it works. 

 

Why just abandon Bioware when we can encourage them to be better? And remember that we're only talking story here. Having a crappy story doesn't automatically make ME3 a bad game. ME2 had a terrible plot and was still a good game.

 

 

 

You completely missed the context of give peace a chance post and my reply to it. The context was that if peace was given a chance it would solve the problem. Which history shows that no peace being given a chance only delays conflict. Never solves it. Delaying the apocalypse isn't the same as stopping it. By that logic the ME series shouldn't have advanced beyond ME 1.

 

Ha, the "give peace a chance" comment was mine, so if anyone missed the context it was you. I never said it would solve the problem. The point is that I'm not convinced there is a problem and even if there is, the current cycle deserves the chance to exist and not be wiped out. And even if it only delays the inevitable, that delay is worthwhile.

 

 

 

 

 

Self-determination is an idiotic argument to use. Particularly when those choices will effect billions of people instead of the individual. A single person chooses to work out till their body covered in muscles is self determination and that is perfectly OK. That person then forcing every person on the planet from the young to the old to follow their workout/diet set up to the letter with no variation to account for age or body set up is quite another.

 

That's exactly why the endings are problematic, particularly Synthesis.

 

 

 

 


You don't seem to understand just how intertwined technology is with every day life in the ME universe or how it is growing intertwined with our own lives. Within the game there are plenty of examples of Shep and crew hacking secure doors with their omni tool. Which for them is equal to our smart phones only better because they can create a knife to stab people in ME 3. Even taking into account Shepard would have a special omni tool given only to specters or other high level N7 program graduates. AI's would be capable of the same level of decryption and hacking ability only able to do it even faster due to their ability to think and react is limited only to what ever physical media they are using. Which since it is electrical signals is near the speed of light.  The amount of ways an AI could mess stuff up is staggering when you take that into account. Even in a space battle war ships rely on VI's to give them targeting solutions. Hack that to alter it or even simply crash the VI and delete it and now that massive war ship is shooting from the hip. And when you are dealing with several hundred miles between two ships  a few degrees off and you miss completely. And holy heck if they get into engine control systems. Not even simply blowing it up by overloading the engine core but forcing it into a position to be broad sided or simply block/take a hit from an friendly ship.

 

That's true. So what?

 

 

 

BioWare seriously downplayed the hacking capability of a fully formed AI. Save when it came to EDI. They let her go full out to help Shepard but always dumb down everything else.

 

AI's only have the abilities given to them in the setting. Whatever you think they should be able to do based on the real world, other works, or your own wild imaginings is irrelevant. EDI and other AIs are more advanced, but warships already have VI help for the things a person can't handle quickly enough.

 

 

I don't personally believe the ending was bad enough to sour the whole experience, but that's just me. 

 

That's a separate argument from if the ending is good or not. You've been defending every aspect, but now suddenly it's "not bad enough to sour the experience." What changed?


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#2036
Ieldra

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In fact, suggesting to be wary of your next purchase from Bioware if you feel you got hosed, is not passive aggressive. It's more assertive, because a passive aggressive person usually tends to hide stuff and not let their true feelings be known. 

It's also trivial and known by everyone, which means that it usually comes across as condescending. It also suggests that all criticism can be expressed by withholding your purse and that's the beginning and the end of it, which is nonsense. And lastly, it's often said by people who want to brush off criticism without having anything to say except trivialities. 


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#2037
rossler

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No, Shepard may be responsible in that way, but has no actual control because s/he has no knowledge about any of that. EMS exists for us, but not for Shepard. S/he has no idea what "enough" or "minimum readiness" are. And while EMS is divided into categories, there are no category requirements; all that matters is the total. How exactly are ground troops helping the Crucible?

 

It's a role playing game. You are playing the role as Shepard. Many people here believe they are Shepard and the player at the same time. That's not what's going on. 

 

The ground troops didn't help build the Crucible, but recruiting more of them will make your odds of success against higher. 

 

It's also trivial and known by everyone, which means that it usually comes across as condescending. It also suggests that all criticism can be expressed by withholding your purse and that's the beginning and the end of it, which is nonsense. And lastly, it's often said by people who want to brush off criticism without having anything to say except trivialities. 

 

There comes a point when being vocal comes across as harassment, and thus not constructive. If you have something to say, that's cool, but it only needs to be said once. If people do it over and over again until Bioware listens to you, then that's where we cross into harassment. 

 

This is why some consider the BSN a very harsh place


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#2038
Monica21

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This is why some consider the BSN a very harsh place.


Yeah, Gaider's problem isn't the posters. It's about what a ****** job his company does at moderating the forums. People are toxic because they can be. Moderators throw out warning points that have no effect on behavior, because there are no repercussions for having warning points. Moderators are unclear on rules for their own forums. If Gaider wants to blame someone for toxicity around here, he needs to talk to Conal Pierse, whose job it is to police the moderators.

#2039
AlanC9

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Technically, I don't think it's appropriate to call the Catalyst a retcon. There wasn't any con to ret, since the Reapers' origin and purpose were a blank up until very late in ME3's development.

Whether that should have been left blank is an interesting topic.

#2040
Natureguy85

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It's a role playing game. You are playing the role as Shepard. Many people here believe they are Shepard and the player at the same time. That's not what's going on.

 

That's fine, but the player knows things that Shepard does not. EMS exists purely for the player. Shepard just knows there are X fleets, Y soldiers, and Z scientists.

 

 

 

 

The ground troops didn't help build the Crucible, but recruiting more of them will make your odds of success against higher.

 

And they still add to EMS just the same. So what do they have to do with your claim that Shepard has control over what happens to the Crucible?

 

 

 


There comes a point when being vocal comes across as harassment, and thus not constructive. If you have something to say, that's cool, but it only needs to be said once. If people do it over and over again until Bioware listens to you, then that's where we cross into harassment. 

 

This is why some consider the BSN a very harsh place.

 

That's bullcrap. This is a forum where people can post. We're not at their houses or filling their personal email. You're not differentiating calm discussion or even ranting from threats and vitriol. This is just you trying to find something to argue against since you can't defend the ending on its merits.

 

Technically, I don't think it's appropriate to call the Catalyst a retcon. There wasn't any con to ret, since the Reapers' origin and purpose were a blank up until very late in ME3's development.

Whether that should have been left blank is an interesting topic.

 

A retcon does not have to actually overwrite something. If it puts something where something formerly didn't exist, it is still a retcon. When the first game was made, there was no Catalyst. ME3 wrote the Catalyst to have existed all along. That is the definition of a retcon. My oft referenced friend TV Tropes even references this situation on the page:

 

 

"In its most basic form, this is any plot point that was not intended from the beginning. The most preferred use is where it contradicts nothing, even though it was changed later on."

 

However, the Catalyst does contradict things because it breaks the plot of the first game.


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#2041
BloodyMares

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"In its most basic form, this is any plot point that was not intended from the beginning. The most preferred use is where it contradicts nothing, even though it was changed later on."

 

However, the Catalyst does contradict things because it breaks the plot of the first game.

The sad thing is that it could be quite easy to fix.
1) Instead of making the Catalyst the collective intelligence of the Reapers just make it the first AI that created the Reapers to solve the supposed problem (that existed back there).
2) It wasn't helping the Reapers in previous games because it was dormant (didn't come up with the reason) until the Crucible just woke it up.
3) Ditch the Catalyst name. Catalyst is the Citadel while the AI is just a nameless deus ex machina.

There. at least this way it doesn't contradict its absence in ME1 THAT much. Note that my intention was just to fix the Catalyst itself, not rewrite the whole ending. I'm not getting paid to fix it.


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#2042
Monica21

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2) It wasn't helping the Reapers in previous games because it was dormant (didn't come up with the reason) until the Crucible just woke it up.


This is the headcanon I actually use to explain away ME1. And I think it makes sense, but no one let us ask it that.
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#2043
Natureguy85

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It's existence still needs to be alluded to earlier than the Cerberus base because otherwise that excuse, while it works, is a weak handwave. Unfortunately, that's all we have to work with!



#2044
BloodyMares

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It's existence still needs to be alluded to earlier than the Cerberus base because otherwise that excuse, while it works, is a weak handwave. Unfortunately, that's all we have to work with!

I don't think it's possible. The whole being of the Catalyst is written that way that nobody knows about it (except Leviathans and Reapers) and I don't see how you can allude to its existence. Reapers don't usually tell about their creator (We have no beginning, we have no end - oh, nevermind, this line alone makes the Catalyst nonsensical). The only way to do it would be to make the Leviathan DLC a part of the main story and it wasn't possible at that time.



#2045
Natureguy85

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I don't think it's possible. The whole being of the Catalyst is written that way that nobody knows about it (except Leviathans and Reapers) and I don't see how you can allude to its existence. Reapers don't usually tell about their creator (We have no beginning, we have no end - oh, nevermind, this line alone makes the Catalyst nonsensical). The only way to do it would be to make the Leviathan DLC a part of the main story and it wasn't possible at that time.

 

You'd have to go back and make ME2 actually part of the Reaper plot. Shepard could find some Reaper artifact that actually has data or maybe something left behind by the Protheans or from an older cycle, just as we found Prothean tech. It could be exposed by some Volcano erupting or something. Actually the simplest is get some real data from the derelict Reaper in ME2, not just a circuit board labeled "IFF" to open the plot door, I mean Omega 4 Relay.


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#2046
dorktainian

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You'd have to go back and make ME2 actually part of the Reaper plot. Shepard could find some Reaper artifact that actually has data or maybe something left behind by the Protheans or from an older cycle, just as we found Prothean tech. It could be exposed by some Volcano erupting or something. Actually the simplest is get some real data from the derelict Reaper in ME2, not just a circuit board labeled "IFF" to open the plot door, I mean Omega 4 Relay.

 

But it was the Reaper plot.

 

If you take a huge leap out of the box as I did, and consider ME2 & 3 to be fulfilment of Vigils task to educate Shepard on the Reaper war (doing it through his own eyes / memories so he would 'understand it')  : Think Red Dwarf 'Back to Reality', or even 'Inception'.



#2047
Natureguy85

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But it was the Reaper plot.

 

If you take a huge leap out of the box as I did, and consider ME2 & 3 to be fulfilment of Vigils task to educate Shepard on the Reaper war (doing it through his own eyes / memories so he would 'understand it')  : Think Red Dwarf 'Back to Reality', or even 'Inception'.

 

No, it wasn't. It was a side story tied to the Reaper plot by a tiny, weak thread. We learned nothing of value about the Reapers or how to stop them. What we learned made them more horrific in a way, but they were already out to destroy us. Do we really care what they do with our corpses? The link to Reapers is just TIM saying he suspects they work for the Reapers. Then they have husks. Ok, so these are the new "geth" for this game. What exactly is their goal? They are kidnapping colonists. Well, they can't actually attack Earth as the squad supposes. What are they going to do with this new Reaper if they finish it? Why are they building it now? Oh, at the end we see Harbinger is a Reaper. Well Shepard didn't see that and doesn't really learn it until Arrival, if you do it.

 

And what is the benefit of that "education?" The ability to choose from the brand new antagonist's color options?


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#2048
planehazza

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I'm just adding to this about the ending, as I just completed ME3 again last night.  I thought I was coming to terms with the disappointment of ME3's ending, but alas sadly not.  Unfortunately, almost every time it has been slightly different for me. The first time was without EC, then with, then I had MEHEM, then EC... etc.  Last night, I thought screw you and chose the reject option. Yes, by doing so we lost, but when I thought about it, it was the only way it could kind of make sense. We had to sacrifice this cycle to help the future; like what the Protheans did, but more successful.  The problem with this, in the eyes of Reapers/Starbrat at least, there is no now solution to the chaos.  So when the races develop AI, as they will, they likely suffer the same fate as the Leviathan.  It's hard to swallow, because it's a case of accepting the Reapers to be right in some form, no matter which option to go for.  And unfortunately, we can only blame EA for rushing Bioware and for the crap choices made when it came to writing the story for 3.  I hope we some day get some fan made alternate ending like MEHEM, but on a grander scale.  

 

So many questions, so few answers...

 

1367155650992.jpg


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#2049
kal_reegar

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The sad thing is that it could be quite easy to fix.
1) Instead of making the Catalyst the collective intelligence of the Reapers just make it the first AI that created the Reapers to solve the supposed problem (that existed back there).
2) It wasn't helping the Reapers in previous games because it was dormant (didn't come up with the reason) until the Crucible just woke it up.
3) Ditch the Catalyst name. Catalyst is the Citadel while the AI is just a nameless deus ex machina.

There. at least this way it doesn't contradict its absence in ME1 THAT much. Note that my intention was just to fix the Catalyst itself, not rewrite the whole ending. I'm not getting paid to fix it.

 

I think that you need only to assume that the catalyst DOESN'T control the Citadel, not completely at least (a software cannot completely control the hardwar, at least not from a "mechanical" point of view). In other terms, the catalyst can't move/open etc the Citadel as  a "physical structure".

 

Given that, his presence (or absence) in ME1 is irrelevant.



#2050
BloodyMares

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I think that you need only to assume that the catalyst DOESN'T control the Citadel, not completely at least (a software cannot completely control the hardwar, at least not from a "mechanical" point of view). In other terms, the catalyst can't move/open etc the Citadel as  a "physical structure".

 

Given that, his presence (or absence) in ME1 is irrelevant.

The fact that I need to assume anything to make sense of it is bad enough.


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