3599 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

But then: reducing mass doesn't actually make FTL possible. Thus, as an explanation for FTL, that element fails. The thing is, you needn't explain such things in an SF story, some fantastic elements work just fine unexplained as long as they don't become a topic in the story (which ftl travel never did, it was just a means to get to places), but *if* you're going to supply an explanation, it should make sense, hold up to *some* scrutiny using in-world logic and not collapse the moment when players start thinking about it. 

Well, this sort of thing has a long SF pedigree. I think the mass effect drive is blatantly lifted from the Lensman series; although "Doc" Smith was enough of a scientist to know better, and actually lampshades that physics says the drive couldn't work before establishing that it does work.

Well, in order to pull things towards it, it has to have a gravity that is significant compared to the gravity of the planet, and the local mass effect would have to exceed the planet's, which means that creating a singularity is gravitationally indistinguishable from placing another planet close by for the duration of the effect, and then withdrawing it.

But wouldn't that mass only exist within the boundaries of the mass effect field?

[Monica21]

Synthesis may seem like magic to some, but to the Reapers, it's their way of reproducing. 

 

No it's not. The harvest is their way of reproducing (if we're going to follow this analogy). Synthesis is their way of "seeking perfection through understanding."

[Iakus]

Yes, suggesting that the writers are incompetent is considered toxic, because it's name calling. Which is verbal abuse.

 

Says the guy who compares the anti-ending crowd to Annie Wilkes.

[KrrKs]

Repeating yourself is kind of part of being on forums is about.

Strange that this is the only forum were this seems be the case...

At least the other forums I visit do not require that.

 

But the catalyst was created by the Leviatans to study and solve a problem. They had no reason to make him capable of complex material action, like to activate a mass relay, to run an entire space station  etc.

(No I'm the one with the horrible example, oh well   )

The catalyst used the 'home' analogy, so i'm borrowing that.

When one builds a home, a house, one usually makes sure to be able to operate all doors, switches etc.

 

In case of the catalyst, why would it come up with the plan to build a space-station around itself that acts as trap, source for information, relay-control, and entry point for its army  -and then decide to not be able to control or access any of these functions?

 

The sherpalyst is an "updated" version of the catalyst, a sort of catalyst 2.0., yes.

But it is also something different, generated by the immense amount of energy released by the crucible.

We cannot know what are the abilities and the limitations of the sherpalist

I'm not sure why the shepardlyst should have more control over the citadel than the original entity. The Crucible might override some functions or settings, but it cannot add functionality which was not there originally.

 

Edit: Typo + a bit of clarification in the last sentence.

Modifié par KrrKs, 27 mai 2016 - 06:09 .

[Iakus]

Not quite the same. Sanderson's talks about literal magic like Harry Potter stuff. Clarke is more talking about the ability to talk to someone across the planet using a blue tooth head set connected to a phone 20 feet away. To someone in say the 18th or later century we would appear to be powerful sorcerers.  The ability to cure diseases with a single syringe full of antibiotics or prevent out breaks of crippling diseases like polio would seem like magic. Hell WiFi is still treated almost like magic in today's society because not many seem to fully understand how it works. Just that connecting to it lets your computer/smart phone wirelessly look at cat videos on the internet.

 

So you kind of missed entirely the point by trying to quote someone who is talking bout literal magic and not simply the fact technology advanced enough that people don't fully grasp the workings behind it would seem like magic to them. 

But if science and magic are indistinguishable, what does it matter? ANd Mass Effect was, at best, using comic book science, which is essentially magic to begin with.

[Dantriges]

Your PC is "home and part" of your Windows 10 (or other operating system). In some ways, the operating system IS your PC. It is what makes your PC more than just plastic and cables.

The operating system can do A LOT of things with your PC. It controls many of its functionalities.

But it cannot move the PC from point A to point P, or remove a cable, or open/close the screen, and other mechanical activities

 

It is perfectly possibile that the catalyst is a "program" with limited "mechanical" abilities.

 

You bought your PC and OS for your needs and it´s made for human usage. The Citadel was built by its "OS" and its most important function was to open a darkspace relay. Opening the arms probably involves  a lot of machinery ultimately controlled by the Citadel master control unit. The only thing the Catalyst needs is some kind of connection to the master control and admin rights. Considering that there already is some kind of network between Keepers and Citadel, the organics don´t have access to, the only thing needed is something similar to these com units the Keepers use. 

[AlanC9]

Retcons don't have to change established fact. They just have to exist where they didn't before. So in this example, the Catalyst's existence raises questions about ME1 that we didn't have previously. When ME1 was written, the Catalyst did not exist. When ME3 created the Catalyst, he gets retroactively written into ME1.

So any new information about the world is a "retcon"? I don't have a problem with that, but is "retcon" a useful concept if it's that broad?

I haven't played Jade Empire so I don't know what you mean by "should be happening now" but what made your eyes roll about Tali finding the recording? He isn't talking about the Council accepting it as proof of anything. He's talking about a few lines of dialogue being used to establish things about the opposing force, the character, and the universe.

JE is a pure action game with RP elements, much more so than any later Bio game. This blows up the point about Bio evolving as a developer towards that style of game. Bio was there a decade ago, it's their fans who have been holding them back.

As for the voice recording, the magic is in how Tali acquired it. (The Council also has a dopey reaction to it, believing only the parts they need to in order to keep the plot moving, but that's par for the course with the series.) Let's set aside the grotesque improbability of finding just the right audio memory for a second, although when you do that you don't get to play the grotesque improbability of Liara discovering the Crucible plans against ME3. Think about the sequence. A geth leaves Sovereign after Eden Prime, goes to wherever Tali was,Tali kills it, extracts the memories, not only decodes them but finds out who Saren is, and then flies to the Citadel, which she somehow manages to reach before Shepard -- which is supposed to be a fast ship, right?

It's a good, workable plot device, but the idea that this represents careful world-building doesn't pass the laugh test. It's Bio making up what they needed when they needed it.

I'm not saying that ME2 and ME3 weren't worse, just that ME1 is not very good. You're in a better place than that writer with the series if your standards are so low that all three games pass, or high enough so ME1 fails too.

[BloodyMares]

but the catalyst did not physically create the army that bring down the Leviathans.

Can we say that the scientists of project manhattan create the nuclear bomb? Yes, of course.

But i doubt that they even touch a bolt in order to assemble it...

 

 

The sherpalyst is an "updated" version of the catalyst, a sort of catalyst 2.0., yes.

But it is also something different, generated by the immense amount of energy released by the crucible.

We cannot know what are the abilities and the limitations of the sherpalist

Shepard-Catalyst is no different from star-child in any way except its personality is written after Shepard's.

[kal_reegar]

 

 

I'm not sure why the shepardlyst should have more control over the citadel than the original entity. The Crucible might override some functions or settings, but it cannot add functionality which was not there originally.

 

the crucible was designed to destroy the reapers, but it's space magic make synthesis possibile, changing the biology of an entire galaxy. So "adding new functionality to the catalyst" is an entirely possible scenario, imho.

 

 

 

 

hepard-Catalyst is no different from star-child in any way except its personality is written after Shepard's.

 

we know that it is something different, but we cannot know how much different.

it might be almost identical or very different, who knows.

 

 

 

 

The catalyst used the 'home' analogy, so i'm borrowing that.

When one builds a home, a house, one usually makes sure to be able to operate all doors, switches etc.

 

In case of the catalyst, why would it come up with the plan to build a space-station around itself that acts as trap, source for information, relay-control, and entry point for its army  -and then decide to not be able to control or access any of these functions?

 

 

but the reapers/catalyst were perfectly able to control or access any of the Citadel functions: through the Keepers, which they fully control.

it works for ages, until the prothean altered the signal.

 

 

 

You bought your PC and OS for your needs and it´s made for human usage. The Citadel was built by its "OS" 

 

I don't remember this part... the Citadel was build by the Catalyst? From zero? Are we sure about that? The Citadel might have been adapted, used by the Catalyst, in order to achieve his goals.

[Iakus]

 
JE is a pure action game with RP elements, much more so than any later Bio game. This blows up the point about Bio evolving as a developer towards that style of game. Bio was there a decade ago, it's their fans who have been holding them back.
 

Jade Empire was the first Bioware game that used "action" combat like Mass Effect rather than real time with pause, like KOTOR.  But as far as RPG elements go, it's no worse than either.  Save the lack of outfits, I suppose.  

[gothpunkboy89]

But if science and magic are indistinguishable, what does it matter? ANd Mass Effect was, at best, using comic book science, which is essentially magic to begin with.

 

Because it is still two separate things. Harry Potter's ability to teleport to any place on the planet instantly while similar to the Relay's ability to transport you across vast distances instantly that would normally take a long time to reach the conventional methods. The way it is done is two distinctly separate ways. Apparition is simply magic allowing you to move vast distances instantly. Relays use technology and the Mass Effect technology to create a corridor of zero mass allowing ships going at FTL speeds to reach speeds not normally capable of allowing near instant movement across vast distances.

 

And I can't believe I'm actually going to state this about Karen Traviss but that was actually something she got sort of right with the Kilo-Five Trilogy. And simply saying she did something right with that train wreck of a trilogy makes me want to vomit. But in the book the UNSC got a hold of some Huragok from a Shield World bunker. Created directly from the Forerunners with no Covenant contact in between to have the information altered to fit that religious dogma.  During a short brief talk with one with a scientist asking how they were able to add these upgrades to the ship to give it pin point accuracy during slip space travel it's translate frequently went silent because there were no words yet created to have them translated into because we had not reached that level of technology to be able to describe it in full.

[gothpunkboy89]

No it's not. The harvest is their way of reproducing (if we're going to follow this analogy). Synthesis is their way of "seeking perfection through understanding."

 

No he is right in stating synthesis is how Reapers reproduce. It is a different form, much more blunt force synthesis then end game but still along the same set up. Ending synthesis is that action perfected to not need to forcibly cram millions of bodies into a single body to create it.

[Monica21]

No he is right in stating synthesis is how Reapers reproduce. It is a different form, much more blunt force synthesis then end game but still along the same set up. Ending synthesis is that action perfected to not need to forcibly cram millions of bodies into a single body to create it.

He's not right. Not only does Synthesis not create a copy of Reaper, it fundamentally changes what a Reaper is. It somehow gives Reapers organic DNA and gives organics some kind of synthetic circuit board DNA. That is not reproduction.

[sveners]

OK, I'll play. How can the Crucible make things worse? Without the Crucible the galaxy faces decades of slow extermination as the Reapers harvest everybody. With the Crucible things are worse because..... I got nothing.

Blowing up a few Reapers won't help our cycle. It's not even clear it would help the next cycle.

Sorry I missed this Alan.

It could sterilize the galaxy, it could enslave all life, it could provide control of time, it could enable conquest of other galaxies. It all depends on your imagination. The Crucible can, quite literally, do anything.

So it boils down to your trust in the Catalyst. The self proclaimed enemy. Who now is in possession of the most powerful device ever built. But who, due to its incorporeal form, is unable to activate it.

Do as it says, like a true believer, and kill yourself in the faith that it is correct. Or tell it to go to hell.

The first alternative makes me think of many horrible real life acts.

That Bioware decided that was the correct choice is more than a little disturbing.

[Iakus]

Because it is still two separate things. Harry Potter's ability to teleport to any place on the planet instantly while similar to the Relay's ability to transport you across vast distances instantly that would normally take a long time to reach the conventional methods. The way it is done is two distinctly separate ways. Apparition is simply magic allowing you to move vast distances instantly. Relays use technology and the Mass Effect technology to create a corridor of zero mass allowing ships going at FTL speeds to reach speeds not normally capable of allowing near instant movement across vast distances.

 

And how does any of that define one as "science" and the other "magic"?  I could call a relay a teleportation ring and Apparation "freecasting" and we've just reversed which is which.

 

The important part is how well the player, or reader in the case of a story understands how it works in its ability to resolve a conflict.  How it would work, why it is a valid solution, how it fits into the larger setting.  Why is this a logical extension of the story and not simply as matter of Only the Author Can Save Us Now

[rossler]

He's not right. Not only does Synthesis not create a copy of Reaper, it fundamentally changes what a Reaper is. It somehow gives Reapers organic DNA and gives organics some kind of synthetic circuit board DNA. That is not reproduction.

 

It's not circuit boards. If you looked at the human Reaper at the Cerberus base, and compared it to the green pattern on everyone's skin, it's the same thing. You have become part Reaper. You still have organic tissue that makes up your face and all, but your underlying DNA is part Reaper. 

 

Oh, and Reapers already had organic as well as synthetic DNA, if you played ME2. 

 

It may not look like reproduction, but I think that's because people are looking at it from an organic point of view. Like how normal humans reproduce, rather than how Reapers do it. 

 

 

[Monica21]

It's not circuit boards. If you looked at the human Reaper at the Cerberus base, and compared it to the green pattern on everyone's skin, it's the same thing. You have become part Reaper. You still have organic tissue that makes up your face and all, but your underlying DNA is part Reaper. 
 
Oh, and Reapers already had organic as well as synthetic DNA, if you played ME2.

The Catalyst says that Synthesis creates a new framework of life. That is not reproduction.

[gothpunkboy89]

The Catalyst says that Synthesis creates a new framework of life. That is not reproduction.

 

Yes because it is a different from of it. Reaper version is a more forced version that requires the various races to be forced into a Reaper body to achieve it. Synthesis game ending spreads it out across the galaxy allowing each individual to be upgraded rather then forcing everyone into a single body to get the upgrade.

[Monica21]

Yes because it is a different from of it. Reaper version is a more forced version that requires the various races to be forced into a Reaper body to achieve it. Synthesis game ending spreads it out across the galaxy allowing each individual to be upgraded rather then forcing everyone into a single body to get the upgrade.

Okay then.

[rossler]

The Catalyst says that Synthesis creates a new framework of life. That is not reproduction.

 

Creating life is like reproduction. 

 

Being born is creating a new life form your mother and father's DNA. You are being reborn as a Reaper/organic hybrid. Or in the case of EDI, she is being reborn as a Reaper/synthetic hybrid. Your organic or synthetic (EDI) essence is being utilized in the Reaper's reproduction process. 

[voteDC]

Retroactive continuity is when you have Gwen Stacy Sleep with Norman Osborn in order to have babies that grow up super-quickly to attack Peter Parker (because you know his own daughter would really age him).

Personally I hate it and not just because of the Sins Past storyline. A retcon takes an established path in the past and forces in a new one in order to 'fix' something in, or add a new element to, the present.

Retcons rarely benefit a story.

As to synthesis, I'll repeat myself, without mind control how does it solve anything? Are the green turians suddenly meant to forgive the Reapers who have slaughtered billions of their people just because they share some of the same genetics? We are human and that doesn't work for us in the slightest, we still happily kill each other for the smallest of reasons.

It wouldn't work here unless mind control was involved.

[kal_reegar]

Retroactive continuity is when you have Gwen Stacy Sleep with Norman Osborn in order to have babies that grow up super-quickly to attack Peter Parker (because you know his own daughter would really age him).

Personally I hate it and not just because of the Sins Past storyline. A retcon takes an established path in the past and forces in a new one in order to 'fix' something in, or add a new element to, the present.

Retcons rarely benefit a story.

As to synthesis, I'll repeat myself, without mind control how does it solve anything? Are the green turians suddenly meant to forgive the Reapers who have slaughtered billions of their people just because they share some of the same genetics? We are human and that doesn't work for us in the slightest, we still happily kill each other for the smallest of reasons.

It wouldn't work here unless mind control was involved.

 

synthesis doesn't mean a perfect, peaceful, non-violent galaxy.

it merely solve the conflit between synthetics and organics by creating a new form of life, and nothing more.

[Iakus]

Creating life is like reproduction. 

 

Being born is creating a new life form your mother and father's DNA. You are being reborn as a Reaper/organic hybrid. Or in the case of EDI, she is being reborn as a Reaper/synthetic hybrid. Your organic or synthetic (EDI) essence is being utilized in the Reaper's reproduction process. 

Being reborn means you died.

 

Commander Shepard has become a LEGEND for murdering the galaxy!  Buy our DLC!

[gothpunkboy89]

Retroactive continuity is when you have Gwen Stacy Sleep with Norman Osborn in order to have babies that grow up super-quickly to attack Peter Parker (because you know his own daughter would really age him).

Personally I hate it and not just because of the Sins Past storyline. A retcon takes an established path in the past and forces in a new one in order to 'fix' something in, or add a new element to, the present.

Retcons rarely benefit a story.

As to synthesis, I'll repeat myself, without mind control how does it solve anything? Are the green turians suddenly meant to forgive the Reapers who have slaughtered billions of their people just because they share some of the same genetics? We are human and that doesn't work for us in the slightest, we still happily kill each other for the smallest of reasons.

It wouldn't work here unless mind control was involved.

 

Korgans killed billions during Rebellion and Turians were able to live in the game galaxy as them. They didn't like each other but they existed with each other in the same galaxy.

[Iakus]

Korgans killed billions during Rebellion and Turians were able to live in the game galaxy as them. They didn't like each other but they existed with each other in the same galaxy.

And this can't work with synthetics because....