And deception was part of this programming?
if deception was the only way to solve the problem, why not?
for the catalyst, the leviathans were part of the problems.
the leviathans were stupid not to consider this eventuality, but again, an IA misinterpreting orders/tasks is not something new..
but the software need "mechanical/electircal components" to run the hardware. Circuits, cables, etc. An OS has not a direct and full control over the hardware.
if you messed up with these components, change codes etc, the software may not be able to interact correctly with the hardware.
Of course, no arguing about that. The thing is that these things still work in conjunction with one another. Keep in mind we're talking about an AI that's more advanced than anything the galaxy's ever known. So far we don't have or know technology that could run purely software, I think...? So here's a question: Where is the Catalyst stored? How is it projected? With VIs like Avina, we know they're projected by hardware and that's why you can always find them in one place. EDI is bound to the Normandy's hardware (which she can partly control and later fully control) and later inhabits the sexbot body (which she can fully control). So how does the Catalyst run? That could be interesting to find out.
if deception was the only way to solve the problem, why not?
for the catalyst, the leviathans were part of the problems.
the leviathans were stupid not to consider this eventuality, but again, an IA misinterpreting orders/tasks is not something new..
So let me get this straight: The Catalyst is able to do something it wasn't designed to if it helped to advance its goal, right? The Catalyst was able to create the Reapers (advances the goal), create Mass Relays and Citadel to make the harvest easier (advances the goal), makes some various new tech for indoctrination (advances the goal). Yet it can't operate to the fullest inside the Citadel when this very thing is essential to its goal? Make up your mind.
The Catalyst is the collective intelligence or at least the boss of all Reapers and stuff. There isn´t a lot you can be a collective of or in charge of, if you can´t communicate.
There is some OS on the Citadel that can control stuff like the arms.
The Catalyst had control over data gathering servants, probably mechanical, which it used to kill the Leviathans and built the first Reaper.
So even if they didn´t built the Citadel and just stuffed a darkspace relay and a Reaper construction facility in there, the only thing the Catalyst needs is admin level access to the Citadel control system.
Even in the unlikely case that the protheans were able to kill two birds with one stone and also severed the Catalyst´s access, it´s ability to communicate with its fellow Reaper buddies should still work. We saw Harbinger communicating with the Collectors and Shepard, which the Catalyst would probably use, too and that was a different system than the council comm buoy setup. OK, the protheans could have demolished this one as well but in that case they would have had access to the Catalyst´s own hardware.
Ok, let´s say, they somehow missed the AI and only smashed its comm. Sovereign never called its boss to hear if someone had already moved in? The hack was 45k years ago. He should be concerned and check what´s going on, if his boss doesn´t respond.
So unless the Catalyst was installed into a station, unable to perceive a bunch of dudes tampering with its access and unable to call for Sovereign to drop a ton of husks into the party or at least undo their changes, and Sovereign ignoring that the Catalyst fell silent, the chain of events is rather unlikely. And in the other case, the blind, deaf and mute AI, why install it there in the first place?
So let me get this straight: The Catalyst is able to do something it wasn't designed to if it helped to advance its goal, right? The Catalyst was able to create the Reapers (advances the goal), create Mass Relays and Citadel to make the harvest easier (advances the goal), makes some various new tech for indoctrination (advances the goal). Yet it can't operate to the fullest inside the Citadel when this very thing is essential to its goal? Make up your mind.
I think it's also interesting that, for example, Tali and EDI can hack the Collector Base which is completely alien tech, possibly Reaper tech even. David Archer, turned into the human AI, could control the entirety of the Cerberus facilities on Aite + the Geth platforms and threatened to get inside the Normandy and later the extranet. The Geth can upload themselves inside of quarian suits, ships and other hardware in order to control their functions. The Catalyst as an AI, being advanced as it's supposed to be, should be able to override whatever the Protheans, basic primitives in comparison, did to the Citadel and whatever function of the Citadel it didn't have, it should theoretically be able to hack. In case of mechanical damage, there are the Keepers. So if it can't do that or if it can't prevent a primitive race from hacking it, how is it otherwise possibly more advanced than, say, EDI or the Geth?
Ah I know, some prothean scientist accidentally stumbled over the power cord powering its hardware, whe they first arrived via the conduit and it shut down. 
So let me get this straight: The Catalyst is able to do something it wasn't designed to if it helped to advance its goal, right? The Catalyst was able to create the Reapers (advances the goal), create Mass Relays and Citadel to make the harvest easier (advances the goal), makes some various new tech for indoctrination (advances the goal). Yet it can't operate to the fullest inside the Citadel when this very thing is essential to its goal? Make up your mind.
he didn't directly create the reapers he doesn't directly harvest people. he doesn't directly indocrinate people.. he's the architect, the planner.
he need pawns and handwork (keepers, collectos, reapers, indoctrinated, shepard) to achieve all his goals. The same may be said for operating to the fullest inside the citadel.
anyway, I get it, you can't accept a very advanced and intelligent IA/software which is, at the same time, unable to perform complex mechanical actions without intermediaries, in conjunction with other elements of the hardware.
Such an IA is inconceivable; it's existence, unacceptable.
Ok, you're suspension of disbelief failed in front of this kind of AI. I respect and undestand that. But it's not a matter of plot holes or
Ok, let´s say, they somehow missed the AI and only smashed its comm. Sovereign never called its boss to hear if someone had already moved in? The hack was 45k years ago. He should be concerned and check what´s going on, if his boss doesn´t respond.
well, as you say, the prothean scientist "hacking" was probably a stealth one. The catalyst didn't perceive them.
They simply altered the signal, the code that allow direct connection between the catalyst/reapers and the keepers. If signal -> than open relay.
A simple virus can do that, and trick any IA, even a very powerful one (see the GETH heretics being brainwashed by legion without knowing it)
the sovereing/catalyst figured this out when the signal didn't work.
Hey, hey, hey, don't touch our number one fan! He's one of the few things written consistently throughout the franchise.
I'm not saying I don't like him. In fact, I do like him. I said this to illustrate that the ME team had their priorities wrong when they made ME2 and ME3. So much side-content that was reasonably well-written (for a video game, anyway), and such a badly-written main plot.
I get it, you can't accept a very advanced and intelligent IA/software which is, at the same time, unable to perform complex mechanical actions without intermediaries, in conjunction with other elements of the hardware.
I think this is were the basis for our arguing comes from.
In my/our opinion the catalyst does not need to 'perform complex mechanical actions' itself to perform its most vital task per cycle, i.e., open the relay.
All it does need to do, is use its ability to communicate (which it necessarily had from the very beginning) and send a command to the station's actual OS or responsible 'hardware driver' (something that the catalyst designed in the first place!).
That it did not do that is what requires additional headcanon as e.g., the protheans sabotaging the catalyst, which is itself damn unlikely, but still not as implausible as the case that you argue for.
anyway, I get it, you can't accept a very advanced and intelligent IA/software which is, at the same time, unable to perform complex mechanical actions without intermediaries, in conjunction with other elements of the hardware.
Such an IA is inconceivable; it's existence, unacceptable.
Ok, you're suspension of disbelief failed in front of this kind of AI. I respect and undestand that. But it's not a matter of plot holes or
Yes, you nailed it. Finally a participant that is able to see things from a different perspective and discuss things without turning hostile.
As for plot holes, they are the reason that we have all these questions. If there were no plot holes then everything would make perfect sense and nobody would dislike the endings so much.
I'm not saying I don't like him. In fact, I do like him. I said this to illustrate that the ME team had their priorities wrong when they made ME2 and ME3. So much side-content that was reasonably well-written (for a video game, anyway), and such a badly-written main plot.
I understand. I was just kidding. I can't really argue with any of that. I love a lot of the side content. In fact, Samara's loyalty mission is one of my favourite ME2 missions, but it sure as hell has absolutely nothing to do with the Reaper plot. Hell, Samara doesn't make much sense as a companion in ME2 and she's still one of my favourites. Same with Grunt as a companion and his loyalty mission. Same with Jack. Etc. It's so bizarre that some of the side missions are reasonably well done and yet the main plot fails to follow basic logic and common sense.
well, as you say, the prothean scientist "hacking" was probably a stealth one. The catalyst didn't perceive them.
They simply altered the signal, the code that allow direct connection between the catalyst/reapers and the keepers. If signal -> than open relay.
A simple virus can do that, and trick any IA, even a very powerful one (see the GETH heretics being brainwashed by legion without knowing it)
the sovereing/catalyst figured this out when the signal didn't work.
So the protheans entered the Citadel via a mass relay, which not a stealthy low energy device, walked around, probably meeting some Keepers, accessed a console with high level access and changed the signal without the AI noticing, which the protheans were unaware that it was there? An exploration team entering the CItadel for the first time in a cycle is a noteworthy event, especially when it´s just after the Reapers left. It means someone was missed in the harvest. And the Catalyst had no diagnostics, no future version of scannow, checkdsk or something similar? No "this device is now disconnected from the network?"
As I said why is it there then? That thing is blind, deaf and useless in that location. Put it in a darkspace space station or so.
I think this is were the basis for our arguing comes from.
In my/our opinion the catalyst does not need to 'perform complex mechanical actions' itself to perform its most vital task per cycle, i.e., open the relay.All it does need to do, is use its ability to communicate (which it necessarily had from the very beginning) and send a command to the station's actual OS or responsible 'hardware driver' (something that the catalyst designed in the first place!).
That it did not do that is what requires additional headcanon as e.g., the protheans sabotaging the catalyst, which is itself damn unlikely, but still not as implausible as the case that you argue for.
I dont' see the real difference between the protheans interrupting the "catalyst/reapers <-> keepers channel of communication"
a. by sabotaging the ability of the keepers to receive the communication/command/signal
b. by sabotaging the ability of the catalyst to effectively send the communication/command/signal
they could have made the general mute, or the soldiers deaf, but the result is the same: the catalyst had to activate the relay "manually", using Saren/Sovereign
a. and b.are are both possible and rational explanation and retro-active interpretation. Choose you're favorite one.
But, imho, none of them is head-canon, as uncontradicted by in-game info.
Maybe I'm misinterpreting the concept of head-canon, but as long as a theory is not falsified, imho it's a valid theory.
And the Catalyst had no diagnostics, no future version of scannow, checkdsk or something similar? As I said why is there then? That thing is blind, deaf and useless in that location. Put it in a darkspace space station or so.
he could be asleep/hibernated, (and thus vulnerable), as vigil told us the reaper are between cycle.
after all, he's the collective intelligence of the reapers, and if the reapers are asleep...
What´s the point then in putting it there. The Reapers moved into dark space because they hibernated and were vulnerable.
But, imho, none of them is head-canon, as uncontradicted by in-game info.
Maybe I'm misinterpreting the concept of head-canon, but as long as a theory is not falsified, imho it's a valid theory.
Yes, you are. Headcanon. As long as something is not outright stated in the game by characters or supported by some strong evidence then it is headcanon. Your theory shouldn't be falsified. It might as well be a subtle canon if the author later reveals it to be true like J.K. Rowling did with Dumbledore's homosexuality. So basically it doesn't matter if that's plausible or not if it wasn't revealed in the game. It is still a headcanon and therefore there is no need to persuade others to believe it.
So can we go back to the main subject?
What´s the point then in putting it there. The Reapers moved into dark space because they hibernated and were vulnerable.
This decission might seem "unlogical", as another francises character would say.
Unlike the simple VI Vigil , the Catalyst did not anticipated this eventuality of someone hacking his system.
I do belief the Catalyst stays in hibernation just as the reaper fleet does, until the "ready to go signal" is sent by Sovereign. Sovereign's only purpose was to stay back and take some looks from time to time, if the civilisations of the galaxy have advanced enough to the point of possible erradication by their own creation, synthetics. Then he would start the harvest cycle by telling/contacting the keepers who "wake" the Catalyst that activates the Reaper fleet and the Citadel Mass Relay. Because preserving life in Reaper Form BEFORE it is destroyed by synthetics is his purpose, right?
But back to your question: Vigils knows that an organic other than prothean would find him, because it was written in his code by his creators.
An AI, like EDI or the Catalyst improves, rewrites, continues to write his code by gathering experiences, it learns, evolves. How do you learn...... one of the deepest learning effect comes from.... failure. We can/have to assume, that it never had experienced such an event before, yet it didn't feared or even anticipated as such.
There are hints, like Shep is the first organic to stand before it and so on.
To quote Garrus, they never saw it comming. And to minimize the possibility of beeing detected, no signals between Capt. Vanguard of Destruction and the Catalyst are send, unless the galaxy is ready to harvest, because they are indeed vulnerable, look at the damage the, compared to previous cycles, primite actual community did to them. Therefore the need the advantage of surprise.
And while that was a successful tactic in the past... 20.000 or so cycles..... why change a winning team. The catalyst is therefore right where he is needed most. In the center of it all on the citadel. This is what gets secured first by the Reapers. (Dumb thing they didn't shut down all mass relays when they moved it to Earth in ME3, just like they did in previous cycles which is the real plothole for me).
I am sure while the Catalyst was unable to perform any controlling actions with the protheans manipulation, it went from Hibernation to a vegetative state, it was able to communicate with Harbinger and the rest of the Reapers to activate and actuate them.
the point is that there are functionalities of your body that you're unable to fully and directly control.
you cannot decide "now it would be a good time to start my digestion". You need "external" imput, and stimulation from different components of your organism. You need a complex network that you cannot control "at will".
the concept of an intelligent entity not being able to fully e directly control its "home", whenever it want and in any situation, is perfectly sound.
Why do you refuse to focus on the specific situation and instead keep reverting to generalities? We are talking about one function, the Citadel Relay. Make it two if you want to talk about the Arms. Yet every time you talk about controlling all functions. Why can you not focus on the two most crucial ones?
the Leviathans made it unable to do that. Why shouldn't they? They need him to analize variables and solve a conflict, not to control a space station.
I don't doubt that the catalyst would have liked to have full control over everything, but not every inherent, original limitation can be overcome. Unless he is a sort of almighy IA God, which is not.
btw, he used to have indirect control over those two functions, through the sovereing and the keepers, until the protheans changed the signal.
Why should they create it to think up a solution but be unable to enact it? How did it have control of the Pawns used to kill the Leviathans? How did it make Harbinger? How did it operate the hologram and sound generators to talk to them or to Shepard?
controlling platforms is very different than controlling a mass relay...
Yeah, moving the platform is probably more complicated than simply switching the Relay to "on." But wait, operating the ship was the same as operating a body because both were mechanical. So why are these different?
no, it's not head-canon.
it's taking implicit and explicit information and putting them together so that Me1 becomes compatible with Me3 ending.
No additions, no inventions.
Just picking the most (or one of the most) consistent scenario, among the many possible interpretation (none of them head-canon. For example, the scenario of the crucible hacking the catalyst is also perfectly sound and not headcanon)
That the Crucible hacks the Catalyst is absolutely headcanon. Head canon doesn't have to mean wild imaginings. There is no indication or dialogue that the Crucible hacks the Catalyst in any way, but it's an ok way to interpret the events.
The problem is that you're reshaping what came before to fit the new information rather than demanding that new information fit within the story that was being told. We are doing the latter. Again, there's nothing wrong with you imagining a situation so that it makes more sense. It is, however, ridiculous to use those imaginings to try to counter our criticism of the crappy writing.
you may found unreasonable/unlikely that the catalyst cannot direclty and fully control the arms and the relay of the citadel, with a mere snap of his fingers, but that's what emerges from his action and his omissions.he need handwork, pawns, to do everything.
f you need to solve a big problem, and so you decide to create the most advanced and intelligent (and thus, dangerous) IA in the universe, would you create it with the ability to take control of things and technology or would you try at least to create him the most incorporeal and "harmless" you can, with inherent limitations and inability to upgrade itself?
You're right that is what emerges, but that's stupid. That's all we're saying.
The dialogue from Leviathan is clear that they never suspected it would betray them, so there was no reason to limit it.
Can quantum entangled communications be intercepted or tracked? I didn't play Leviathan so I don't know if that came up as a plot point. If not, then there would be no need for Sovereign and the Catalyst to worry about keeping in constant touch.
I have no idea, but TIM seems to think so. That was the whole deal with not telling Shepard that the "disabled" Collector vessel was a trap before TIM sent his millions worth of credits to board it. He worried that the Collectors would know that they know... 
I still think he's full of rubbish and maybe lying, but... yeah. That's all I remember.
Here's what had to have happened. The Leviathans create the Intelligence. The Intelligence determines that organic life has to be harvested but preserved. The Intelligence creates the first Reaper. (I'm still not sure how it did this.) At some point, more Reapers are made and the "collective consciousness of the Reapers" decides that it's best to funnel organic life along a certain path. So the Reapers (the Intelligence) build the relays and the Citadel. Somehow the Intelligence becomes the Citadel. And then, somewhere along the way, the Intelligence decided that it would continue to function solely as a consciousness but not have any actual control over the structure in which it says it is.
Why does that make sense? And if that does make sense, why would it decide to do that? (And someone point out if I went wrong somewhere.)
This decission might seem "unlogical", as another francises character would say.
Unlike the simple VI Vigil , the Catalyst did not anticipated this eventuality of someone hacking his system.
I didn´t mean "Ups, I didn´t see that coming," I meant "why put it in there in the first place?"
I have no idea, but TIM seems to think so. That was the whole deal with not telling Shepard that the "disabled" Collector vessel was a trap before TIM sent his millions worth of credits to board it. He worried that the Collectors would know that they know...
I think the idea was that Shep the dumbie would spring the trap or that the Collectors would know somehow. Hm, the last thing could have actually happened, given that the Shadow Broker thoroughly bugged the ship and was working with the Collectors. Ok the better idea in that case would be to order a general bug hunt, instead of keeping crucial mission data for yourself and I am pretty sure TIM meant that Shep´s would behaviour would give it awy but still...
Here's what had to have happened. The Leviathans create the Intelligence. The Intelligence determines that organic life has to be harvested but preserved. The Intelligence creates the first Reaper. (I'm still not sure how it did this.) At some point, more Reapers are made and the "collective consciousness of the Reapers" decides that it's best to funnel organic life along a certain path. So the Reapers (the Intelligence) build the relays and the Citadel. Somehow the Intelligence becomes the Citadel. And then, somewhere along the way, the Intelligence decided that it would continue to function solely as a consciousness but not have any actual control over the structure in which it says it is.
Why does that make sense? And if that does make sense, why would it decide to do that? (And someone point out if I went wrong somewhere.)
IIRC his idea was that it´s actually unknown if the relays and the Citadel were really built by Reapers and their claim to have done so is a lie.
IIRC his idea was that it´s actually unknown if the relays and the Citadel were really built by Reapers and their claim to have done so is a lie.
So we're supposed to ignore the direct statement by Sovereign that the Reapers built the Citadel and the relays, and instead believe that he lied, all to make up a reason why the Catalyst couldn't control the Citadel? That's a lot of waaayyyyy outside the box thinking, right there.
Or just realize that if luring species to the Citadel is part of the trap they would want to make sure no one could accidentally find out about the Catalyst thus left most controls to the Citadel out side of it's control. Leaving them in the Keeper's hand so other species could learn the basic controls like opening and closing arms. Making them think they have full control.
I think the idea was that Shep the dumbie would spring the trap or that the Collectors would know somehow. Hm, the last thing could have actually happened, given that the Shadow Broker thoroughly bugged the ship and was working with the Collectors. Ok the better idea in that case would be to order a general bug hunt, instead of keeping crucial mission data for yourself and I am pretty sure TIM meant that Shep´s would behaviour would give it awy but still...
Wait, Shadow Broker bugged the ship? Which ship? Good my Shep doesn't romance anyone in ME2. Could be awkward with all that around. (But since Cerberus so kindly placed the portrait of the ME1 love interest on her desk, I'm not sure who's the worse meddler here.)
Either way, I don't trust a word TIM says and I don't trust his judgement, either. He keeps yanking Shepard around and then he pulls this stunt right after Horizon which he manipulated into happening. The only reason I think TIM likely believes this is that I don't think he would risk wasting that much money and "bloody icon" just for lulz. Whether I think he handled the situation well is another matter entirely.
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