3598 réponses à ce sujet

[Dantriges]

Ilos was a target in the general harvest operation, independant of its special status. If the Catalyst was collecting data in between the cycles the Reapers would have had the coordinates and harvested it, because they harvest or kill everyone they can find. Seems it doesn´t, the Catalyst also isn´t used in the vanguard-keeper-relay opening routine, so there´s no point in having it located in the Citadel in the first place.
 

the most incapable, cut off from the outside world, incorporeal, abstract, incapable of complex material actions, the best the catalyst works, and the less plot holes/inferior scenario it creates.
he is a useless addition (everything he've said/done, could have been said/done by any random reaper) so the less concrete impact he has, the better.

You don´t need to do the writer´s job for them. A bit of filling in the blanks or suspension of disbelief is ok, nothing is perfect, but the writers went full steam ahead into nonsense territory.
 

ah, just for curiosity, how do you conciliate:
a ) the fact the the catalyst declare that he is controlling the reapers (collective intelligence etc, the sheparlyst fully control them etc, the space brat starting to call himself as "we" etc), or at least has a very strong influence over them
b ) the fact that the catalyst want the crucible to be used (he's solution won't work anymore!), but if shepard wait too long, it appears a game over scenario with "the crucible has been destroyed" (I've always supposed by the reapers)
c ) tha fact that if the crucible could be simply not used and than removed/destroyed without consequences, how in the hell the variables have been changed? If the reapers win the battle and remove the crucible, how the variables have been changed?

 
In general, I gave up to make sense of that. I am actualy quite willing to fill in the blanks between stuff myself, but you stumble over some other detail when you found a working explanation.
 

Which of this horrible, unlikely assumpion to you repute the less absurd?
 
1. the catalyst has a very weak control over the reapers fleet. He can merely influence them, and only the long term. They are trying to destroy the crucible (as they tried to do before), and they'll continue to do so despite the change of variables. So the catalyst need Shepard to act quickly, before his own pawns destroy the crucible and thus his masterplan (next cycle will win)
 
2. the catalyst has full/great control over the reapers fleet, and so the reapers fleet is not attacking the crucible; but the crucible, being in the middle of a huge space battle, is in a dangerous position: with "stray bullets" everywhere, it's inevitable that in few minutes it will be damaged and destroyed (next cycle will win)
 
3a. The destruction/removal of the crucible (indipentently by whom and why: overload, friendly fire, reapers etc) will very much likely release a wave of energy that will heavily damage the reapers fleet (and possibly, the catalyst), and they will be unable to win against next cycle.
So the catalyst, indipentenlty of his level of control over the reapers, needs to act quickly, in order to avoid heavy losses
 
3b. The destruction/removal of the crucible ((indipentently by whom and why: overload, friendly fire, reapers etc)) will cause no immediate, negative consequences for the reapers, but the mere fact that organics were able to go so far (build the crucible; make the crucible dock on the citadel; activate it; only one little little step from total victory) is enough to makes the catalyst realize that his solution is no longer effective

It seems that the Crucible is actually the controlling instance and the Catalyst not in complete control. The Catalyst accepts Low EMS destroy with no alternatives and you even get the walkway raised which leads to the tube. It also seems that you can shut down the Crucible without it exploding, as seen in Refuse. It´s a wide stretch but more believable that some ancient species got its hands on the source code of the AI (from the Leviathans perhaps) and incorporated a hacking module into the space magic than a bunch of protheans tricking an AI they didn´t know existed. In Refuse the Catalyst got over it and kicked it out of the system. Doesn´t fit, if you apply timing, but well it´s a video game where you can theoretically stop mid conversation, drink a coffee, take a nap and then continue.

[Vanilka]

 
You can find a video file of Jacob doing his fitness routine, chatlogs, emails etc from the crew on the ship of the Shadow Broker. But actually I think it´s more likely that the Shadow Broker didn´t bug the Normandy, he hacked into the Cerberus database where EDI deposits her reports. It´s easier, more likely than the Shadow Broker having a mole in the construction crew and I assume an AI specialised on cyberwarfare would detect unauthorized transmissions or data packages hiding within their normal communications. And well, why bug a ship, which is already filled to the brim with spyware, controlled by a cyberwarfare AI when you can snoop in the reports.

 

Damn, you know, I completely forgot about that? Somehow it being side content that's available later in the game didn't quite click with the Collector plot in my head while we discussed that. Perhaps because it has next to nothing to do with it besides tiny details here and there.

 

I forgot the Shadow Broker is one of those characters. He and TIM have the uncanny ability to know everything and be everywhere at the best possible time and have unlimited resources because reasons. Guess I shouldn't bother questioning it any more.

[kal_reegar]

It seems that the Crucible is actually the controlling instance and the Catalyst not in complete control. The Catalyst accepts Low EMS destroy with no alternatives and you even get the walkway raised which leads to the tube. It also seems that you can shut down the Crucible without it exploding, as seen in Refuse. It´s a wide stretch but more believable that some ancient species got its hands on the source code of the AI (from the Leviathans perhaps) and incorporated a hacking module into the space magic than a bunch of protheans tricking an AI they didn´t know existed. In Refuse the Catalyst got over it and kicked it out of the system. Doesn´t fit, if you apply timing, but well it´s a video game where you can theoretically stop mid conversation, drink a coffee, take a nap and then continue.

 

hmm, so you're leaning toward the hacking scenario? It's a plausible one.

but after the EC (and the refusal ending) it seems to me a little useless... we don't need to assume that the crucible is forcing the catalyst o think that his solution won't work anymore: refusal ending proves it.

you do nothing, the reapers remove/destroy tha crucible, end this cycle, and next cycle is able to defeat them.

so the docking of the crucible really implies a change of variables, with huge consequences.

 

I also think that low EMS destruction is still a better option than nothing, for the catalyst. He's aware of the fact that oganics will eventually destroy the reapers, soon or later, this cycle or the next one. But this cycle has better chance do deal with future killer synthetics (they have the crucible project, they have already build one, they have experience in dealing with synthetics and in fighting together against a common enemy, all the living synth will be destroyed, giving organics an advanted they probably didn't ever had before etc)

 

the crucible docking could be the famous "last straw" (the catalyst finally acknowldge that the process, started with the prothean scientist, is no longer reversible).

Something very close to what legion say about the heretics ""An equation with a result of 1.33382 returns as 1.33381. This changes the result of all higher processes. We will reach different conclusions". A little difference with huge consequences.

 

but could be an hacking device or a virus too, yes.

[BloodyMares]

I also think that low EMS destruction is still a better option than nothing, for the catalyst. He's aware of the fact that oganics will eventually destroy the reapers, soon or later, this cycle or the next one. But this cycle has better chance do deal with future killer synthetics (they have the crucible project, they have already build one, they have experience in dealing with synthetics and in fighting together against a common enemy, all the living synth will be destroyed, giving organics an advanted they probably didn't ever had before etc)

 

If it was true then why can't the Catalyst just pick up his Reapers and go away? Why commit suicide and make Shepard destroy the Reapers (and the rest of the galaxy with low EMS) when it can just abort the harvest and send Reapers back into dark space? Give Shepard his number or something if the cycle ever needs Reaper help in case of emergency.

[AlanC9]

Jade Empire was the first Bioware game that used "action" combat like Mass Effect rather than real time with pause, like KOTOR. But as far as RPG elements go, it's no worse than either. Save the lack of outfits, I suppose.

I don't see it. The ME games can be paused to aim and to target powers and squadmates. JE can't be. JE has almost as little inventory as ME2. And....

But this doesn't matter. If we classify JE, ME1, and ME2 as all the same thing, the progression argument's already a failure. Anyway, I really don't think this board needs another round of "what counts as an RPG element."

[AlanC9]

I also think that low EMS destruction is still a better option than nothing, for the catalyst. He's aware of the fact that oganics will eventually destroy the reapers, soon or later, this cycle or the next one. But this cycle has better chance do deal with future killer synthetics (they have the crucible project, they have already build one, they have experience in dealing with synthetics and in fighting together against a common enemy, all the living synth will be destroyed, giving organics an advanted they probably didn't ever had before etc)

Note that this requires a grotesque misreading of organic psychology. The Catalyst's beliefs about synthetics will be just about as discredited after the war as eugenics was in 1945.

Not necessarily a problem, since the Catalyst doesn't seem to have any grasp of that in the first place.

[kal_reegar]

If it was true then why can't the Catalyst just pick up his Reapers and go away? Why commit suicide and make Shepard destroy the Reapers (and the rest of the galaxy with low EMS) when it can just abort the harvest and send Reapers back into dark space? Give Shepard his number or something if the cycle ever needs Reaper help in case of emergency.

 

1. if the geth and the other advanced synthetics are destroyed,  this cycle may have better chances to survive. Or will survive a little longer, who knows.

2. if shepard doesn't activate the crucible, harvest is still the better option to save organic life. Better than nothing, at least.

 

 

retreat in the dark space could have been a good option, but he said that there is little time to activate the crucible.

[ImaginaryMatter]

If it was true then why can't the Catalyst just pick up his Reapers and go away? Why commit suicide and make Shepard destroy the Reapers (and the rest of the galaxy with low EMS) when it can just abort the harvest and send Reapers back into dark space? Give Shepard his number or something if the cycle ever needs Reaper help in case of emergency.

 

On the sense making front, I think this is my big issue with the ending. The Catalyst asks Shepard to choose a new solution but restricts those options to the Crucible's functions; the problem with that is that only Synthesis is an actual solution. Destroy, by the Catalysts own admission in not a solution to the actual problem of synthetics destroying all organic life, it's at best a temporary stay. It's strange that the option for the Reapers to simply leave or retreat isn't brought up. For both parties it provides nothing but upsides compared to Destroy: the Catalyst gets to preserve the already harvested species, has time to contemplate a new solution (versus leaving the decision to a bleeding out organic who has a infinitesimally more limited perspective), and can again intervene if needed. Control creates a new entity who is free to do whatever it wants with the Reapers, so that's not really a solution either.

I guess none of this really matters though. The Stargazer scene implies that the Catalyst was wrong any way.

[BloodyMares]

On the sense making front, I think this is my big issue with the ending. The Catalyst asks Shepard to choose a new solution but restricts those options to the Crucible's functions; the problem with that is that only Synthesis is an actual solution. Destroy, by the Catalysts own admission in not a solution to the actual problem of synthetics destroying all organic life, it's at best a temporary stay. It's strange that the option for the Reapers to simply leave or retreat isn't brought up. For both parties it provides nothing but upsides compared to Destroy: the Catalyst gets to preserve the already harvested species, has time to contemplate a new solution (versus leaving the decision to a bleeding out organic who has a infinitesimally more limited perspective), and can again intervene if needed. Control creates a new entity who is free to do whatever it wants with the Reapers, so that's not really a solution either.

I guess none of this really matters though. The Stargazer scene implies that the Catalyst was wrong any way.

Exactly. In both Control and Destroy the Catalyst basically surrenders. Neither destroying the Reapers nor letting an organic control them is going to solve this supposed problem. The only option that makes sense thematically would be for Shepard to Refuse the Synthesis and instead persuade (Paragon/Renegade system proving itself useful) the Catalyst to retreat. And unlike in ME1, Shepard has tons of proof that the conflict doesn't exist anymore. Consequences: Shepard shows that he has initiative, Reapers aren't a threat anymore, synthetics don't have to be destroyed, Mass Relays are intact and the freedom of others is not violated. Is this too 'happy' for an ending? Probably. But it is the only ending that makes sense when the antagonist's logic is broken. If they wanted us to have a 'bittersweet' ending then they should've come up with a more sensible reason behind the Reaper Harvest like the original reason involving dark matter.

[kal_reegar]

 

 

t's strange that the option for the Reapers to simply leave or retreat isn't brought up.

 

well, probably this is what the catalyst did after completing the harvest of the current cycle (and thus giving organic life other 40-50.000 years of life before the inevitable singularity, which is better the nothing)

 

"the reapers are no longer a threat", said the stargazer in refusal ending.

Could mean that the reapers retreated after this cycle or defeated by the next, who knows.

[BloodyMares]

1. if the geth and the other advanced synthetics are destroyed,  this cycle may have better chances to survive. Or will survive a little longer, who knows.

2. if shepard doesn't activate the crucible, harvest is still the better option to save organic life. Better than nothing, at least.

 

 

retreat in the dark space could have been a good option, but he said that there is little time to activate the crucible.

1. How so? Geth are allies (or destroyed) so if anything, Geth and EDI provide a better chance in preventing an AI-apocalypse.
2. How is it better? You say that the Crucible itself is a proof that this cycle is different and is capable of surviving without Reaper interference and that's why Reaping doesn't work anymore. So why does Shepard have to use the Crucible in the low EMS destroy option which is going to cause Armageddon? What is that going to achieve? When Shepard is talking to the Catalyst the war with the Reapers is basically over because the Catalyst is willing to cooperate. You make the Catalyst seem like the Joker (Batman villian): "Kill me, otherwise I will always try to ruin your day".

[kal_reegar]

1. How so? Geth are allies (or destroyed) so if anything, Geth and EDI provide a better chance in preventing an AI-apocalypse.
2. How is it better? You say that the Crucible itself is a proof that this cycle is different and is capable of surviving without Reaper interference and that's why Reaping doesn't work anymore. So why does Shepard have to use the Crucible in the low EMS destroy option which is going to cause Armageddon? What is that going to achieve? When Shepard is talking to the Catalyst the war with the Reapers is basically over because the Catalyst is willing to cooperate. You make the Catalyst seem like the Joker (kill me, otherwise I will always try to ruin your day).

 

1. not according to the (maybe flawed) logic of the catalyst. Synthetics, sooner or later, will always turn against organics.

2. because of point 1. Something like "this cycle is somehow special, with a few decades without syntetics like geths trying to kill every organic,organic life may last a few centuries/millenia more". The geth-organic peace proves nothing (and I agree with him, it may very well be a temporary peace, no alliace last forever, and on the long run synthetics will become too powerful for organics)

Destroy is not a real solution for the catalyst, just the lesser evil.

 

Btw, the catalyst is interested in preserving organic life, not civilization.

A destroyed post apocalictic galaxy is not a bad place for organic life.

[Dantriges]

The Catalyst doesn´t know the outcome of refuse.

 

There are options like intervening later, when the roboacpocalypse is coming or be content with the species that have been preserved. The number is in 100k+ range compared to the dozen or so current ones. It´s probably not something the Catalyst would like but still better than "ok Shep, there´s the red button, push it." It might hasten the inevitable organic-synthetic war but also eliminates the possibility to do something, if the machines are rising up.

[BloodyMares]

1. not according to the (maybe flawed) logic of the catalyst. Synthetics, sooner or later, will always turn against organics.

2. because of point 1. Something like "this cycle is somehow special, with a few decades without syntetics like geths trying to kill every organic,organic life may last a few centuries/millenia more". The geth-organic peace proves nothing (and I agree with him, it may very well be a temporary peace, no alliace last forever, and on the long run synthetics will become too powerful for organics)

Destroy is not a real solution for the catalyst, just the lesser evil.

 

Btw, the catalyst is interested in preserving organic life, not civilization.

A destroyed post apocalictic galaxy is not a bad place for organic life.

1. This logic is flawed, that's why I hate how Shepard says nothing about it.
2. What was about the Crucible proving this cycle is different again? How about the Catalyst stops the Harvest and gives this cycle a trial period of 100 years then? If the organics of this era prove to be capable in handling the synthetics on their own then Reapers go away forever.

FYI, in low EMS destroy Mass Relays explode...and when they explode, they destroy the star system. Completely. Now, imagine every known star system getting destroyed. Every star, every planet. Gone. Forever. In this outcome Milky Way ceases to exist. You could argue that there is Andromeda but Reapers only care about Milky Way.  Life can't develop in the vacuum of space. I don't care that Hackett gives some brooding speech and it shows a handful of survivors in the epilogue. It is not possible given the circumstances.
So how is the end of Milky Way is a lesser evil compared to the AI uprising and the Harvest?

[kal_reegar]

 

 

The Catalyst doesn´t know the outcome of refuse.

 

he knows that "his solution won't work anymore".

the days of the reapers are done, and he said that to shepard. They can complete this cycle (and that's what happen if shep choose refusal) but for the next cycle "they are no longer a threat" (says the stargazer)

 

we can only speculate why the catalyst believe that destroy is a better option than continue the cycle, but he appear to think so.

Maybe he believe shepard somehow "special" (for synthesis)... he may think that human are somehow "special".

Maybe he think that destroying all syntetics one shot will give this cycle a little advantage they can exploit...

 

we don't know exactly how the catalyst reason. He may have a completely flawed logic, from our prospective.

 

 

 

 

 

2. What was about the Crucible proving this cycle is different again? How about the Catalyst stops the Harvest and gives this cycle a trial period of 100 years then? If the organics of this era prove to be capable in handling the synthetics on their own then Reapers go away forever.

 

 

this is control, practically... leave the cycle survive under the vigilance of the reapers as peace-keeping force.

and he prefers control rather than destroy

 

 

 

 

 

FYI, in low EMS destroy Mass Relays explode...and when they explode, they destroy the star system. Completely. Now, imagine every known star system getting destroyed. Every star, every planet. Gone. Forever. In this outcome Milky Way ceases to exist. You could argue that there is Andromeda but Reapers only care about Milky Way.  Life can't develop in the vacuum of space. I don't care that Hackett gives some brooding speech and it shows a handful of survivors in the epilogue. It is not possible given the circumstances.
So how is the end of Milky Way is a lesser evil compared to the AI uprising and the Harvest

 

 

not every star system has a mass relays.

 

in the worst case the milky way will face a sort of "great mass extinction", but life will spread again from it's remotest corners.

[BloodyMares]

this is control, practically... leave the cycle survive under the vigilance of the reapers as peace-keeping force.

and he prefers control rather than destroy.

But why surrender control to Shepard when the Catalyst itself is able to do these things just as good?
Control to me is the most stupid option out of 3. Why present Control as an option when you can as well do what Shepard asks you to do?
 

 

in the worst case the milky way will face a sort of "great mass extinction", but life will spread again from it's remotest corners

And this was my original point proving how stupid the premise is. How can synthetics do more damage than that? Why do Reapers bother harvesting organics if no matter how badly the galaxy is damaged the life will always emerge?

[kal_reegar]

 

 

But why surrender control to Shepard when the Catalyst itself is able to do these things just as good?
Control to me is the most stupid option out of 3. Why present Control as an option when you can as well do what Shepard asks you to do?

 

who knows... he maybe think that the other species will accept do be strictly watch for a 100 years and than probably slain by the genocidal reapers only if they konw that thier greatest hero has been put in charge of the peace keeping operation. In any other case, they will not trust the reapers and continue the fight.

 

I mean, I'm not a sci-fiction writer, but we have so little information about the catalyst and it's purpose that I'm pretty sure that you can fill the empy spaces with tons of possible scenarios...

 

 

 

 

And this was my original point proving how stupid the premise is. How can synthetics do more damage than that? Why do Reapers bother harvesting organics if no matter how badly the galaxy is damaged the life will always emerge?

 

 

for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grey_goo

 

a scenario like that would end all organic life in the galaxy, for ever.

the same cannot be said for a mass extinction caused by a red wave of space magic (with survivors).

[BloodyMares]

who knows... he maybe think that the other species will accept do be strictly watch for a 100 years and than probably slain by the genocidal reapers only if they konw that thier greatest hero has been put in charge of the peace keeping operation. In any other case, they will not trust the reapers and continue the fight.

News flash. Nobody knows that Shepard is controlling the Reapers...All that they know is that Shepard is dead and Reapers are still there, watching. And even if they knew why would they care if Shepard is controlling them? He is not Space Jesus. He is the badass military who gets the job done, that's it. Why would they trust him to rule the galaxy? He may be a "hero, a bloody icon" but he is not a Messiah with believing followers. They don't even know that controlling them is possible (Cerberus are considered deluded).  
This outcome is no different than asking the Catalyst do exactly that.
 

 

for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grey_goo

What does this have to do with Mass Effect? The conflict is not about organics inventing dangerous technology that can end all life. The conflict is "Synthetics (AI) will always rebel against their creators". Your example showcases nano-robots without intelligence, not AI.

And it's funny you mention the grey goo...because in Mass Effect this is only applied to the reproduction of the Reapers.

Although it doesn' really matter. You could think of many more options how synthetics could rebel against organics and that it might be true....however in the storytelling it's not enough to make a claim and expect everyone to accept it without an argument. If you say that synthetics are going to rebel against organics then show us that this is indeed true. Make the peace between quarians and the geth impossible, make EDI rebel against the Normandy crew killing everybody...Instead they did exactly the opposite. The game went extra mile to show that peaceful coexistance between organics and synthetics is totally possible.

And with this I'm going to end my line of thought. I know already that you are aware of the poor handling of the plot and want it make sense so much that you think of endless possibilities that it would make sense. And like you believe that synthetics will always rebel against organics, believe me that the ending of Mass Effect will never make sense, no matter how many plot holes you try to fill. By filling existing plot holes you will create even more plot holes. There is no end. That's impossible to accomplish without rewriting it completely and changing the premise. And like the Catalyst I will not bother myself with backing up this claim, I will only say that until this point no organic ever could fix the ending without creating new plotholes so this is true by definition. (I even hate myself for using the stupid Catalyst method of having a dialogue but for the sake of irony it needs to be done).

[Natureguy85]

It isn't ridiculous. Why does it need direct control? The Keepers handle that part in conjunction with the Reaper Vanguard to start the harvest. Reaper pings the Citadel. The Citadel's automatic functions responds to the ping triggers the keepers and the Keeprs in turn physically activate the Relay.

 

This isn't more ways to fail it is more ways to hide the connection. All these seemingly separate systems working together to hide the truth about the Relay makes a lot more sense then a centralized system that someone could stumble across. What you are thinking is about convenience not secrecy. Secrecy is why this system works. It is why Kasumi's BF divided the data he was trying to hide into dozens or more of his memories in his grey box. Specifically so if someone did manage to hack it they wouldn't be able to easily piece the data together. Much like the various different systems that wouldn't seem to interact with each other would make it much harder for any intelligence species. Particularly once smart enough to reverse engineer ME technology and activate the relays from finding out what the Citadel really is and what role the Keepers play in it.

 

It's not an issue of need. It's an issue of direct control being the simplest, most reliable, and most sensible solution. Therefore, you must answer the question "why not have direct control?" The issue of discovery is not a good answer. It's not an active system that needs constant monitoring and input. All the Catalyst needs to do is switch the thing on at the right time. And once they changed the timing from "at the apex of their glory" to "every 50,000 years" there isn't even a need for an outside observer like Sovereign. The Catalyst only needs a timer. in fact, they could automate the process, like "the hatch" in LOST.

 

What would someone stumble across if the Catalyst had control of the Relay function that isn't there now? The Relay machinery exists in both scenarios, as does whatever server the Catalyst is stored on. Your argument makes more sense for something that would need active management, so those things could be handled by the Keepers..

 

 

 

 

 

There is no point in putting the Catalyst there, if it doesn´t do anything. If you need it there during the harvest, build an attachable module and take it with you during your stay in dark space hibernation.

 

Good point. This would also fit better with the idea of the Crucible needing it to function.

 

 

 

The Catalyst's safety does rather seem to depend on countless generations all being too obedient / lazy to ever delve into the Citadel's inner workings, despite all the potentially valuable technology potentially hidden away there. You would think that would at least inspire some curiosity, if not outright greed. I know there were laws in place to prevent this in the Council's time, and the Keepers could be mildly obstructive, but you'd think at least one tenant species would say "to hell with it" and try to make a concerted effort to gain access.

 

Yeah but this has always been something questionable that we've had to accept. It doesn't come from the Catalyst.

 

 

 

the most incapable, cut off from the outside world, incorporeal, abstract, incapable of complex material actions, the best the catalyst works, and the less plot holes/inferior scenario it creates.

he is a useless addition (everything he've said/done, could have been said/done by any random reaper) so the less concrete impact he has, the better.

 

ah, just for curiosity, how do you conciliate:

a ) the fact the the catalyst declare that he is controlling the reapers (collective intelligence etc, the sheparlyst fully control them etc, the space brat starting to call himself as "we" etc), or at least has a very strong influence over them

b ) the fact that the catalyst want the crucible to be used (he's solution won't work anymore!), but if shepard wait too long, it appears a game over scenario with "the crucible has been destroyed" (I've always supposed by the reapers)

c ) tha fact that if the crucible could be simply not used and than removed/destroyed without consequences, how in the hell the variables have been changed? If the reapers win the battle and remove the crucible, how the variables have been changed?

 

The answer to all of the above is "terrible writing." It's really not more complicated than that. I don't know if it was just lack of talent or lack of familiarity with the series they were writing for, but it's just bad.

 

 

 

 

I don't see it. The ME games can be paused to aim and to target powers and squadmates. JE can't be. JE has almost as little inventory as ME2. And....

But this doesn't matter. If we classify JE, ME1, and ME2 as all the same thing, the progression argument's already a failure. Anyway, I really don't think this board needs another round of "what counts as an RPG element."

 

ME1 went into the second group, not with ME2.

 

 

retreat in the dark space could have been a good option, but he said that there is little time to activate the crucible.

 

Why was there little time? Why not have a situation like The Matrix: Revolutions where the machines stop attacking while the characters talk and hammer out a solution?

 

 

Exactly. In both Control and Destroy the Catalyst basically surrenders. Neither destroying the Reapers nor letting an organic control them is going to solve this supposed problem. The only option that makes sense thematically would be for Shepard to Refuse the Synthesis and instead persuade (Paragon/Renegade system proving itself useful) the Catalyst to retreat. And unlike in ME1, Shepard has tons of proof that the conflict doesn't exist anymore. Consequences: Shepard shows that he has initiative, Reapers aren't a threat anymore, synthetics don't have to be destroyed, Mass Relays are intact and the freedom of others is not violated. Is this too 'happy' for an ending? Probably. But it is the only ending that makes sense when the antagonist's logic is broken. If they wanted us to have a 'bittersweet' ending then they should've come up with a more sensible reason behind the Reaper Harvest like the original reason involving dark matter.

 

I chalk up the choices other than Synthesis as due to Synthesis being "not something that can be... forced." This is "borrowed" from The Matrix Reloaded and "Choice. The problem is choice."  Of course that interpretation only works when Synthesis is available. The problem is that Synthesis is clearly supposed to be the "good ending" and it needs the most EMS not because EMS really means anything but because it is a score and you need a high enough score to unlock it.

 

As for keeping it from being too happy, they just had to keep the losses in the forefront. I think there is room for a real "Shepard lives" ending, Shepard's death would still have been fitting. I just watched a LP of Dead Space 3 and loved it but thought that they should have left Isaac and Carver dead rather than have them survive "because alien technology." If fit well with both characters, particularly Carver. If they wanted Isaac to live they should have let Carver sacrifice himself to save Isaac.

 

 

 

1. This logic is flawed, that's why I hate how Shepard says nothing about it.
 

 

That Synthetics will always turn on organics isn't logic. It's a declaration. It's truth or falsehood is of questionable relevance. If it is false, there is no need for the Reapers, but even if it is true, the question remains if the Reapers are an appropriate or the best response, and if we should reject them even if they are.

[kal_reegar]

 

 

News flash. Nobody knows that Shepard is controlling the Reapers...All that they know is that Shepard is dead and Reapers are still there, watching. And even if they knew why would they care if Shepard is controlling them? He is not Space Jesus. He is the badass military who gets the job done, that's it. Why would they trust him to rule the galaxy? He may be a "hero, a bloody icon" but he is not a Messiah with believing followers. They don't even know that controlling them is possible (Cerberus are considered deluded).  
This outcome is no different than asking the Catalyst do exactly that.

 

the reapers can talk, so the sheparlyst can inform the galactic community of his existence, and convince them to accept this fact (persuasion skill )

the catalyst seems to believe that only a radically updated catalyst 2.0, upgradeted with shepard memories and personality, can have a chance to keep the peace between organic and synthetics.

what's the problem?

 

the catalyst believe that the only true solution is synthesis. The other solutions are nothing but a temporary makeshift. A little better than a inevitable failure (the reapers solution) but still, at best, a lesser evil.

Form its prespective, they gave this cycle a few time and a few advantages, nothing more. Only synthesis can solve the problem.

 

 

 

 

What does this have to do with Mass Effect? The conflict is not about organics inventing dangerous technology that can end all life. The conflict is "Synthetics (AI) will always rebel against their creators". Your example showcases nano-robots without intelligence, not AI.

And it's funny you mention the grey goo...because in Mass Effect this is only applied to the reproduction of the Reapers. 

 

a super advanced race of synthetics may very well decide to auto-replicate it-self, without limit.

 

anyway, the grey goo scenario is only one of the possible catastrophic technological singularity.

[BloodyMares]

anyway, the grey goo scenario is only one of the possible catastrophic technological singularity.

I edited my post. Read it. I won't discuss these possibilities because I simply don't care.

[Dantriges]

he knows that "his solution won't work anymore".
the days of the reapers are done, and he said that to shepard. They can complete this cycle (and that's what happen if shep choose refusal) but for the next cycle "they are no longer a threat" (says the stargazer)
 
we can only speculate why the catalyst believe that destroy is a better option than continue the cycle, but he appear to think so.
Maybe he believe shepard somehow "special" (for synthesis)... he may think that human are somehow "special".
Maybe he think that destroying all syntetics one shot will give this cycle a little advantage they can exploit...
 
we don't know exactly how the catalyst reason. He may have a completely flawed logic, from our prospective.

 
They have 50.000 years to figure out something new. It doesn´t make much sense, that they were done for in the next cycle. We dropped one time capsule, where Liara told them that the crucible didn´t work, so they are more or less starting at zero. The catalyst has every opportunity to learn from its mistakes, the Reaper numbers are overwhelming, the galaxy is unaware and the harvest starts at the Reapers leisure. So perhaps they got advance warning and the schematic for the Thanix stuff, so what? Is the vanguard position left open after Sovereign´s demise? Call in your buddies early. We can´t even hand over the weaknesses of the Reaper ground forces, because they build them out of available material in that particular cycle.
 
The catalyst might be something beyond human comprehension, but its creators are human writers and they dropped the ball too often to simply accept the Catalyst as super smart and beyond our logic. it´s pretty obvious that the option is there, because the writers wanted it in (d´uh really ) and left out the steps leading to it being on the table. Yeah the Crucible, but well, how many pages did we spend on "why did the Catalyst offer it," with no reasonable explanation.

Ok, there´s potential for misunderstanding here. I mean, ofc everything is in a story because the writer wanted it there, but the steps leading to a satisfying explanation of why it´s there, are missing.
 

who knows... he maybe think that the other species will accept do be strictly watch for a 100 years and than probably slain by the genocidal reapers only if they konw that thier greatest hero has been put in charge of the peace keeping operation. In any other case, they will not trust the reapers and continue the fight.
 
I mean, I'm not a sci-fiction writer, but we have so little information about the catalyst and it's purpose that I'm pretty sure that you can fill the empy spaces with tons of possible scenarios...

I am no sf writer but I am pretty good at filling in blanks. I DMed PnP RPGs for 25 years, 20 years in my own setting and let´s say you get accustomed to answer exotic stuff you haven´t thought of, in the time frame of one minute. You can actually do that, if your world has a good or at least acceptable level of internal consistency. But world building for ME took the backseat in the later sequels behind someone´s raging Cerberus fetish, cheap drama, pretty explosions and better gameplay (thank god for this one).  

It´s four years and despite the appearance of raging hatred on the forums, most of the people here are actually fans and not just here for hating. In most games you get some fan explanation of a common consensus after this time, which is actually pretty good most of the time, because quite a lot of people devoted a lot of processing time on it (and yelling at each other). Here, we have nothing.

And well, why do we have to fill in the blank space? The lobbed it in in the last minute, because they desperately wanted it and made it super important without any preliminary work, in some parts at odds with stuff already told, why bother, it´s their job.
  

for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grey_goo

There´s a nice explanation about nanomachine weaknesses here: http://www.schlockme....com/2012-11-14 Nice picture included.
You´ve read the last paragraphs in the entry you posted?

[BloodyMares]

I chalk up the choices other than Synthesis as due to Synthesis being "not something that can be... forced." This is "borrowed" from The Matrix Reloaded and "Choice. The problem is choice."  Of course that interpretation only works when Synthesis is available. The problem is that Synthesis is clearly supposed to be the "good ending" and it needs the most EMS not because EMS really means anything but because it is a score and you need a high enough score to unlock it.

To be honest when I played the game for the first time I totally picked Synthesis, even without hesitation. I didn't even think about "what will everybody else think about it?" I only cared that with new tech Joker's bones are indestructible, he can bone EDI and Geth are alive. And Shepard did Assassin's leap of faith.  And when the extended cut came out, I was amazed by Tricia Helfer's performance. Also I was a teenager at that time. Pure emotion and zero brain activity. I guess Mac and Casey expected everyone to feel that way and turn their brains off. But yeah, EMS is really stupid in this game. I can't even get the "bad" ending anymore because my "N7 Special Ops Team" score guarantees that I will always get the "best" ending no matter what. I can make all the wrong decisions, I can kill anybody and I will still be able to pick Destroy with the last breath of Shepard. How awesome.

[kal_reegar]

 

And with this I'm going to end my line of thought. I know already that you are aware of the poor handling of the plot and want it make sense so much that you think of endless possibilities that it would make sense. And like you believe that synthetics will always rebel against organics, believe me that the ending of Mass Effect will never make sense, no matter how many plot holes you try to fill. By filling existing plot holes you will create even more plot holes. There is no end. That's impossible to accomplish without rewriting it completely and changing the premise. And like the Catalyst I will not bother myself with backing up this claim, I will only say that until this point no organic ever could fix the ending without creating new plotholes so this is true by definition. (I even hate myself for using the stupid Catalyst method of having a dialogue but for the sake of irony it needs to be done).

 

 

I disagree. I think that there can be found a lot of possible scenarios that make sense. The poor writing will remain, a lot of unanswered questions will remain.but the plot holes can be filled (and with "filled" I don't mean "to be convincing, reasonable or likely", but simply "not expressely contradicted by in game information")

But what you think, I say it again, is something I respect and understand.

 

Personally I find funny and stimulat to try to fix Casey&Mac mess, and debating it with other fans

 

 

 

 

 

, the Reaper numbers are overwhelming, the galaxy is unaware and the harvest starts at the Reapers leisure. So perhaps they got advance warning and the schematic for the Thanix stuff, so what? Is the vanguard position left open after Sovereign´s demise? Call in your buddies early. We can´t even hand over the weaknesses of the Reaper ground forces, because they build them out of available material in that particular cycle.

 

that's another aspect I've been wondering about.

I believe that the reapers suffered to many losses against the prothean. The war lasted for centuries (!!!). When they attack, the protheans were much more advanced than this cycle. They could almost build mass relay, a tech the current cycle knows almost nothing about.

So they attack this cycle very early. They had no choiche. They want to attack even earlier, when this cycle was almost "primitive" (but the signal failed).

And to destroy this cycle, without the citadel trap and without controlling the mass realy network, they suffer other heavy losses. And if they lost more than 4-5 reapers, they cannot replace the dead.

 

They were smart to make everybody believe that they were invincible and overwhelming, but maybe the truth was that they were already walking on the razor edge.

[Natureguy85]

To be honest when I played the game for the first time I totally picked Synthesis, even without contemplation. I didn't even think about "what will everybody else think about it?" I only cared that with new tech Joker's bones are indestructible, he can bone EDI and Geth are alive. And Shepard did Assassin's leap of faith.  And when the extended cut came out, I was amazed by Tricia Helfer's performance. Also I was a teenager at that time. Pure emotion and zero brain activity. I guess Mac and Casey expected everyone to feel that way and turn their brains off. But yeah, EMS is really stupid in this game. I can't even get the "bad" ending anymore because my "N7 Special Ops Team" score guarantees that I will always get the "best" ending no matter what. I can pick all the wrong decisions, I can kill anybody and I will still be able to pick Destroy with the last breath of Shepard. How awesome.

 

That's fair. I picked Destroy and Synthesis never sat well with me, but as I said elsewhere, I didn't have the deeper understanding of story telling that I do now. In fact ME3 was what got me to dig deeper. Even just yesterday, I was replaying Primordia and noticed something I'd missed the first time that, while unimportant to the plot, is crucial to the setting and characterization of the protagonist. I get the emotion part too. I initially liked the Tali picture because I liked the character and it was nice. Then I thought about it and now I don't like it, especially after I read that it was just manipulation of some random internet photo.

 

Although poor Joker is still limping as he exits the ship. Apparently he has some special bone disease that can't be fixed by genetics since the Alliance might have payed it or Joker could have gotten it himself, since soldiers are gene modded. Plus his disease went from his legs to his entire skeleton for no reason!