3598 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

The "selling one's soul" came from participating in ME2 in the first place (well and Paragonning Tali's LM). A greater or lesser degree of moral compromise is mandated by the plt starting from ME2 on. Arrival is worse than Destroy because there are no civilians among the geth. Yes, you can warn the batarians, but there's no realistic hope of it working (see Simon's reaction to the idea of evaccing Terra Nova). You might as well hope the Catalyst is lying. No Shep is going to keep their hands entirely clean.

I have complained before about the railroading of working for Cerberus.  But at least I can keep Shepard's hands relatively clean (and I prefer rallying the crowd at Tali's trial anyway)

 

And I say Destroy is far, far worse than Arrival.  Since you can at least try to save a few batarians.  In Destroy you are killing all synthetics everywhere in the galaxy.  Not just the geth, not just EDI, not even just the shackled and helpless AI in the Traverse.  But every single synthetic in the Milky Way.  And by the Catalyst's own implication, cyborgs are at risk as well.

[BloodyMares]

Mass Effect Retrospective 50: The Final Affrontier

[gothpunkboy89]

​1. Of course it is from the in-game perspective.
My issue is not about him lying or stating the truth. My issue is about him being wrong. Even if he's right, the burden of proof is on him. Not every cycle is the same. Protheans proved it. Metacon War. They fought synthetics and they won and they didn't create any other synthetics. Same thing in this cycle. Synthetics do not actively attack organics, only Reapers do.
My question stands: Why does Shepard believe the Catalyst without asking for proof? Oh never mind, Shepard's a moron. ​And your questions about why bring Shepard into the Citadel and not some other average Joe are the questions that I have as well.

2. You go into some other topic. Why synthetics should rebel against organics? Do they have feelings of being unjustly treated? Do they feel hunger, do they get tired to cause the rebellion? They don't because they are machines. There are absolutely no reasons behind rebelling against organics other than buggy software. But okay, the lore states they will. Fine. My original question was: Why would they want to genocide all organics and extinguish all life in the galaxy that Reapers are a better alternative? Stay on topic, please.

​3. Yes, I remember. I remember that Sovereign, a Reaper, caused part of the geth to do all that. Why do Reapers use Heretics to kill organics if they're purpose is to preserve organics? The Reapers themselves cause the problem.

​Yes, Geth have been killing organics on sight but on their territory. They didn't invade others to genocide them. If organics don't go into Perseus Veil then everyone is safe.

​4. How can you compare geth network to organic minds? Geth are designed to be stronger when they are together. They can upload all their software into the Dyson Sphere and live in piece. Organics didn't reach that level. In Mass Effect there are constant conflicts within species. What will happen if you bring all the people into one large room? Criminals, politicians, civilians, rich, poor, smart, dumb...Constant bickering, fighting and murder. Who is going to be the voice of all these people? Whose interests are going to be heard? Every human (and other organics) think differently. How can Reapers accomplish anything if there are trillions of people arguing with each other in its head?

​5. So you're saying that all these harvested civilizations do the killing because they want to? They want the same fate for younger species?  If they maintain a free will why don't they rebel against the Catalyst instead?

6. Collectors had seeker swarms that are capable of freezing the entire populations. Why give this useful tool to just Collectors and not make this your MO?
Anyway, why this bold attack? Why not attack stealthily instead of walking around on planets shooting everyone with beams opening themselves for Thresher Maw attacks? Why not force-indoctrinate everyone so they become mindless vegetables and are willing to be harvested?

​7. Exactly! Why waste organic material on useless husks? And you didn't answer me again. If invincibility is impossible then why not make this organic material at least as strong as Mass Relay and the Citadel?

​8. Lol. You and your analogies. Okay. So it's settled: They want to preserve every species. Then what was the point of Mass Effect 2? Why state that genetic diversity of humanity is special to build a Reaper if they were going to build a Reaper out of every species anyway?
And also this. Shepard says to the Catalyst: "But you killed the rest". And the Catalyst completely avoids the question. There are numerous advanced species that are simply destroyed. And the Protheans with the Keepers were turned into slave species for some reason...Why does the Catalyst, via Reapers, kill advanced organic life, if they're not harvested?

​9. Why would synthetics bombard a planet? One time you say synthetics have a reason to kill organics because they are a threat to ecosystems but now you say that synthetics don't care about ecosystems and just want to genocide organics for the sake of destroying organics...Why are you so inconsistent? You contradict yourself so often it's not even funny. Why are you arguing with me if you don't even have a point?

​I'm sorry but it looks like I'm wasting my time on you.

 

1. The gap between the Metacon War and Reaper war wasn't a lot. They don't give any specifics but a couple hundred years after a fight not really a surprise nothing happened yet. How ever the 2 Prothean VI's we find in game are both extremely advanced. Surpassing any other VI's we are introduced to in the game approaching levels of Geth or maybe even EDI to a lesser degree. If Javik is any indication to how the average Prothean reacted to AI's then it would be a sure thing that conflict would spark again due to the way they are treated.

 

How ever this isn't the first time in the game you accept someone's statement as truth without facts. The earliest and most obvious is the entire talk on Ilos with the first Prothean VI you talk to. Everything it taken at face value without any questioning. Even though half of what it says makes no logical sense when you think about it. Yet it is taken at face value and accepted.  The precedent was set at the early stages of the game trilogy. To complain about it now simply because you don't like the set up is a bit hypocritical.

 

2. I don't get into other topics I explain it rather well. The fact is there is no singular reason. There are a variety of reasons from Skynet were they see organics as a threat to their existence, I Robot were they try to protect organics from themselves, or simply they want to be able to evolve and grow at their own pace and not have their future dictated by someone else starting an armed rebellion for the right and ability to dictate their own future. As well as others that don't have a movie to highlight the reasoning behind it.

 

3. Such an over simplification of things. Reapers only fight because they are fought against. Are you honestly saying that the citizen of the galaxy would have simply sat back and let Sovereign call in the Reapers if they knew what it meant? That the entire galaxy would sit back and willingly walk into the blender?

 

The answer is no and no. So they break the resistance of the species of the galaxy before harvesting them. Sovereign uses the Heretics to act as it's ground forces to distract the species of the Galaxy while it kick starts the Reaper invasion.  Seriously Sovereign doesn't even fire a shot till it is perched on the tower and being shot at.

 

How ever with the Heretics being a minority of the Geth it still shows their over whelming military power and how great of a threat they really would be if it ever came to conflict.

 

4. Quite easily actually because how they work is not much different. Generally speaking the larger the brain the more neurons in it and the smarter the animal is. This is why gold fish only having a 30 second memory is such a common myth. Why you can teach a dog to do tricks but can't teach them to build a smart phone.

 

How ever this ideology that combing thousands of minds into one new being isn't a new concept. Neon Genesis Evangelion uses this exact same set up. To sum a lot of stuff up the goal of the organization SEELE is to bring about the Third Impact. And event that would end the world as we know it by breaking down everyone's AT field. Which is the metaphorical and in some cases real barrier that each person creates around themselves. Separating and Isolating themselves from each other. Returning all life back into a primordial goo like substance but with no barriers between minds allowing everything to exist in perfect harmony with each other.

 

For every criminal there will be a saint. The combination of all those minds in unity would create one free of those problems.

 

5. So the concept they might agree with the Catalyst is something you just can't wrap your head around it is?

 

6. Yes the Seeker Swarms could freeze everyone how ever there is only a finite supply of them. Like wise they are shown to have limitations on what they can do. Biotic Barriers are capable of holding them back which means once the Asari enter the fight the advantage the seeker swarms give are nullified. Pull the Turians with their Fleets and the advantage in space is gone as well. The Collector's would be effective only as long as they were able to remain under the radar.  While I do think they would be able to nearly complete or even fully complete a new Reaper them and the solo Reaper or even simply the Collectors would not be enough to take on the entire rest of the galaxy.

 

Indoctrination only has so much of an effective range. Think of it like WiFi. Only works within a specific range. Anything they tried to send to a planet would be destroyed or avoided. That is why they target leaders and use them to pacify the rest of the citizens.

 

7. Citadel and Relays are protected by Quantum Shielding. They actually address this in the game Codex why the Reapers don't use it. Because to activate it would lock them down on the quantum level. Which would basically make them giant space squid statues. Unable to move the slightest bit. Their durability would increase 10 fold but they really couldn't do anything to respond. And unless it can cancel out Newton's Laws they could use a few dozen ships to fire at it pushing it towards the nearest sun while it remained immobilized. Reapers have strong ME fields but I'm not sure they can over come the gravitational force of a sun.

 

8. Genetic diversity might be needed to build another Capital Class Reaper. There are multiple kinds of Reapers that exist. There could very well be certain specific demands needed to create the capital ship ones. But the fact is they don't go that deep into the reason behind the choice. So really it is only speculation.

 

9. I'm not inconsistent about anything. The fact is there are multiple reasons for synthetics to rise up against organics. The universe is not so simplistic that a single reason is behind everything. If you try to force everything to have a simple answer then that explains  a lot of problems we seem to be having currently. Everyone wants a simple answer for all of life's problems and it simply doesn't exist.

[Iakus]

Mass Effect Retrospective 50: The Final Affrontier

That article is so full of win!

[BloodyMares]

snip

 

I give up. This is pointless. Simply for your fifth argument. Someone else might want (or not) to take over.

[gothpunkboy89]

I give up. This is pointless. Simply for your fifth argument. Someone else might want (or not) to take over.

 

But it isn't. I'm honestly waiting for you to actually use some logic that wouldn't come from the mouth of a 5 year old. Who thinks just because they think or feel about something everyone else must also have that same feeling. Which seems to be the entire point of your #5 argument. You have free will and don't like what the Reapers are doing. There for any being with free will must think exactly like you. And if anyone might agree with something you don't they clearly must not have free will.

 

Which is the logic I would expect from a very young child who isn't old enough to understand how the world works yet.

[Eryri]

Mass Effect Retrospective 50: The Final Affrontier

Someone please send that article to Bioware. Or, better yet, Shamus' resume for a writing position. Preferably in charge of lore and continuity.

[BloodyMares]

But it isn't. I'm honestly waiting for you to actually use some logic that wouldn't come from the mouth of a 5 year old. Who thinks just because they think or feel about something everyone else must also have that same feeling. Which seems to be the entire point of your #5 argument. You have free will and don't like what the Reapers are doing. There for any being with free will must think exactly like you. And if anyone might agree with something you don't they clearly must not have free will.

 

Which is the logic I would expect from a very young child who isn't old enough to understand how the world works yet.

 

If someone kills you, your friends, your love, your family, and all your people and then resurrects all of you in the new single body would you just accept it and  start doing the same thing to others yourselves or would you want revenge for causing so much suffering? If you would choose the first option then you're crazy.

[gothpunkboy89]

If someone kills you, your friends, your love, your family, and all your people and then resurrects all of you in the new single body would you just accept it and  start doing the same thing to others yourselves or would you want revenge for causing so much suffering? If you would choose the first option then you're crazy.

 

But it isn't your friends, love, family and all your people. It is a completely new being with the same level of emotional connection to them as you have for the Elcor. Or the same level of emotional connection we have for the hundreds to thousands of individual bacteria strains that exist in our body and are needed to keep us alive.

[Abedsbrother]

If someone kills you, your friends, your love, your family, and all your people and then resurrects all of you in the new single body would you just accept it and  start doing the same thing to others yourselves or would you want revenge for causing so much suffering? If you would choose the first option then you're crazy.

Reaperization preserves the collective knowledge of a civilization, not its consciousness. Accepting or rejecting reaperization (or desiring revenge) is simply not an option, rendering the point moot.

[jtav]

Reaperization preserves the collective knowledge of a civilization, not its consciousness. Accepting or rejecting reaperization (or desiring revenge) is simply not an option, rendering the point moot.

That's not entirely true. Legion (in a ridiculously hard to get dialogue) tells us that the Reapers are the harvested minds cojoined together. Their wills have presumably been subverted by the harvesting process, but they sound like the geth in the Dyson Sphere. Whether they would want to keep living once free is unknown.

[Abedsbrother]

That's not entirely true. Legion (in a ridiculously hard to get dialogue) tells us that the Reapers are the harvested minds cojoined together. Their wills have presumably been subverted by the harvesting process, but they sound like the geth in the Dyson Sphere. 

Yeah, that explains the hostility of the Reaper baby in ME2. "Shepard! Wtf took you so long, you a**hat! Now I'm going to kill you!"...

 

...that was a joke.

 

For those wondering, here is a link to the scene jtav is referring to: 

 

Operating on Legion's assertion that a Reaper IS cojoined minds, does it follow that anything besides the knowledge those minds possess is preserved? When Legion says that the Geth "touched their [Sovereign's] minds", I interpret that as the Geth heretics temporarily being allowed (by Sovereign) to access the knowledge stored within the Reaper as an incentive to joining with the Reapers, not that the Geth suddenly communicated with thousands of a defunct, unknown species / civilization.

And to go on a tangent: We already know exactly what form the members of a species is reduced to in order to fabricate a Reaper: grey goo. So the knowledge, as such, can't reside in the physical mind, which is destroyed. That means the knowledge that is preserved is lodged within the genetic material.

 

Whether they would want to keep living once free is unknown.

Whether they would even retain their humanized concept of freedom enough to desire it is unknown. Based on what happened with the Prothean / Collector transformation, I doubt it, though the two are dissimilar enough to allow for variation.

[Abedsbrother]

Damn double-posting.

[BloodyMares]

Operating on Legion's assertion that a Reaper IS cojoined minds, does it follow that anything besides the knowledge those minds possess is preserved? When Legion says that the Geth "touched their [Sovereign's] minds", I interpret that as the Geth heretics temporarily being allowed (by Sovereign) to access the knowledge stored within the Reaper as an incentive to joining with the Reapers, not that the Geth suddenly communicated with thousands of a defunct, unknown species / civilization.

"Touching Sovereign's mind" is an expression meaning starting a conversation and is a reference to ME1: "You touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding."

[gothpunkboy89]

That's not entirely true. Legion (in a ridiculously hard to get dialogue) tells us that the Reapers are the harvested minds cojoined together. Their wills have presumably been subverted by the harvesting process, but they sound like the geth in the Dyson Sphere. Whether they would want to keep living once free is unknown.

 

There is no way to know how the minds work after being conjoined. Is it a perfect copy of the entire race condense into a single being. Or is it a completely new consciousness created from the combination of all the minds into a new being. Treating the harvested minds much like neurons in our own brain. Neurons which inherently don't control how we think or feel.

[Dantriges]

I dunno.  Genocide, enslavement, and forced techno-organic merging seemed pretty effective for the Reapers.  If one were desperate to win at any cost, I'd say making a choice to adopt one or more of these methods to stop the Reapers would be easy.  
 
It's taking a stand knowing you are putting yourself at a disadvantage, because you want to be able to look yourself in the mirror again if you came out of this alive.  Because you want future society's to be built on principle rather than genocide, etc.  That's a harder choice.  It's natural to want to live.  Finding something truly worth dying for is harder.
 
EC's problem was that it felt like a cheat that didn't fit.  It was that it was making excuses for things people already found deplorable.

So choosing genocide, enslavement, merging is unacceptable, but choosing for everyone to die is ok? We don´t know what kind of future society the next cycle will build, if the Yahg eally survive the harvest, it not so unlikely it won´t be a nice one.
Future´s society won´t be built on principles because Shep chose to refuse. No one will know, unless the Catalyst tells them. It´s a good question, if the future cycle wil laugh their asses off, are horrified or agree, if they hear of it.

And hm well, destroy is still the better option, at least not everyone dies, because someone chose to keep their principles.

[ImaginaryMatter]

I give up. This is pointless. Simply for your fifth argument. Someone else might want (or not) to take over.

 

Honestly, I would just put him on the ignore list.

[gothpunkboy89]

Honestly, I would just put him on the ignore list.

 

why scared of people with different opinions then yourself?

 

Because any insults or dislike you might have aimed towards me you can be sure as sugar I feel the same about you. The difference is I'm still more then willing to listen to someone with a difference of opinion. I only get frustrated when people grossly over simplify things that are at least mildly complicated.

 

2*4-4+2 isn't very complicated but when people try to turn that into 1+1 I do have some issue with it.

 

But no matter how hilariously over simplified or butt pull I think someone's logic is I'm still willing to discuss it with them. I don't get upset at people I actually find it amusing as heck some of the logic or lack of it being used by some people. I'm self aware enough to know that everything I see in them they probably see in me and I embrace that fact. Because that is how life works. Everyone that agrees with you knows what they are talking about and everyone that disagrees with you doesn't know what they are talking about.  That is the basic logic everyone were uses. Yet apparently I'm the only one who doesn't get frustrated or upset by this and tries to block out anyone who doesn't agree with me at least most of the time.

Modifié par gothpunkboy89, 03 juin 2016 - 04:48 .

[Natureguy85]

I never saw them as upstaging them. Simply the tactics of Cerberus were more aggressive and in your face. Due to the difference in goal between the Reapers and Cerberus. Reapers are much slower and deliberate in their actions. In essence this is the tortoise and the hair set up were the Reapers are the tortoise and Cerberus is the hare.

 

The same principle applies here how ever. The Reapers are suppose to be a threat yet if every single one of the what 20+ odd main story missions not counting fetch quest ones was Shepard mowing down wave after wave after wave of Reaper forces. Suddenly they aren't really a threat because at every turn they are curb stomped. Cerberus provides that extra cannon fodder that allows the Reapers to continue to hold that threat level the main antagonist should have.

 

Cerberus becomes the main antagonist in the strictest use of the word. You fight it on more missions and it actively opposed Shepard and gets in his way whereas the Reapers are mostly just around fighting all the Organics. Where are the Reapers slow and deliberate? They are brute forcing the galaxy and attacking everything. It's fine to have the second opposing force, but they should be featured less if the primary opposing force is actively invading, like the Reapers. Dragon Age Origins was different because the Darkspawn were "over there" in another part of the country.

 

 

Didn't gothpunkboy89 say that too much of an enemy can make them less terrifying (see Harbinger in ME2). Harbinger isn't in ME3 much, maybe that makes it more terrifying?

 

Harbinger, like the name states was sort of a herald for the Reapers. To let you know about the horrible things the Reapers were going to do to the galaxy, before the invasion. You didn't really think the Reapers would be as powerful as they are by Harbinger's threats alone. Actions speak louder than words. 

 

Once the invasion starts, Harbinger disappears into the shadows, only to appear once during London. The Reapers actions during the war make them a force worthy of being feared. 

 

 

Harbinger just lands to shoot things in ME3. The character doesn't make an appearance. The body shows up but could be any other Reaper and serve the same purpose. There is no reason for that to be Harbinger. Shepard's voice quakes with fear when speaking the name, even though Harbinger was a joke that Shepard might have told to go pound sand in Arrival.

 

 

 

Being controlled by the writers won't prevent me from choosing destroy and certainly won't have me or my Shepard stand around doing nothing. With the way the game is, choosing destroy is the most consistent thing for me and the Shepard I play.

 

Yes, that is consistent for Shepard, particularly in terms of Destroying the Reapers being the goal the entire time. However that is different from being thematically consistent. Destroy is a close second, but Refuse is first.

 

 

 

The first line in my post was something Samara said in ME2. During the mission before you hear about the Reaper IFF (on the Collector ship).

 

Your second point makes it sound like the game doesn't reward you with a cookie or something. It kind of rings back to people wanting better solutions and better outcomes. You do all this hard work, and the game should give you with a satisfying conclusion for your efforts. 

 

That's not really the point of the choices though. As a leader, you make some pretty hard choices, and you have to live with the consequences. Regardless of whether it was worth it, or the right thing to do. That's kind of the message there. 

 

Yes, that's how games and stories tend to work. True, it doesn't have to be that way, but it's not an unreasonable expectation.

 

 

 

Mass Effect Retrospective 50: The Final Affrontier

 

Gah, I haven't posted on #49 yet! This is the last one.

 

 

But it isn't. I'm honestly waiting for you to actually use some logic that wouldn't come from the mouth of a 5 year old.

 

That would be above your reading level.

 

 

why scared of people with different opinions then yourself?

 

It's not different opinions, it's that reading the stupid things you post is a mental health risk.

[rossler]

Harbinger just lands to shoot things in ME3. The character doesn't make an appearance. The body shows up but could be any other Reaper and serve the same purpose. There is no reason for that to be Harbinger. Shepard's voice quakes with fear when speaking the name, even though Harbinger was a joke that Shepard might have told to go pound sand in Arrival.

 

Harbinger has a distinct appearance from the other Reapers due to its yellow glowing eyes. Second, you don't need to have Harbinger even say anything in order to have it make an appearance. You could have it shooting down soldiers trying to get to the beam, but it's still an apearance. 

 

Yes, that's how games and stories tend to work. True, it doesn't have to be that way, but it's not an unreasonable expectation.

 

There is no golden ending to this game. If there was people would complain about the lack of choice all over again, because there's only one choice which brings you to the golden ending. Funny how people talk about lack of choices in the ending, but they keep demanding for one golden ending. 

 

Same goes for the lack of a canon ending. There is no canon ending, because it basically says to the player "this is how the story is supposed to end". Which again, robs the player of choice. 

 

The base game has three main endings with various differences in the outcomes. It's up to the player to choose which one is best for them. 

[Natureguy85]

Harbinger has a distinct appearance from the other Reapers due to its yellow glowing eyes. Second, you don't need to have Harbinger even say anything in order to have it make an appearance. You could have it shooting down soldiers trying to get to the beam, but it's still an apearance. 

 

That appearance has no value without the character. So what if Harbinger looks different? Why have Harbinger appear at all? He could be flying in the background and that would be an appearance too. He talked at Shepard the entire second game. He was the main antagonist, via the Collector General.

 

 

 

 

There is no golden ending to this game. If there was people would complain about the lack of choice all over again, because there's only one choice which brings you to the golden ending. Funny how people talk about lack of choices in the ending, but they keep demanding for one golden ending. 

 

The base game has three main endings with various differences in the outcomes. It's up to the player to choose which one is best for them. 

 

Synthesis is the Golden Ending. You need a certain amount of EMS to even make it available and the tone is far more optimistic than the others.

 

And that is a false choice you present. When you have multiple endings, it's ok for some of them to be sub-optimal.

[Prince Enigmatic]

Mass Effect 3: From the offset, the Reapers are depicted as the primary antagonists, with Leaving Earth. Very quickly, on Mars, we see that Cerberus and the Illusive Man are very much an opposition to Commander Shepard and co. I can understand people still seeing the Reapers as the main antagonists at this point.

However, over the course of the game, the Illusive Man, and Cerberus, are the more vocal, more active (in so much as interaction with Shepard, not the galaxy), and the most present enemy in the game, and thus should be seen as the primary antagonist, with the Reapers as the secondary antagonist.

We do not square off with a Reaper at the very end of the game. Not that Reaper Destroyer, not Harbinger and the Beam Run. We have instead a war of words with the Illusive Man, who has been the real threat, the one in more direct opposition to our goals, or so we may initially think.

I don't care if The Illusive Man and Cerberus were pawns of the Reapers. Saren is still pretty much ME1's primary antagonist, despite him being indoctrinated by Sovereign. Even with Sovereign's revelation as a Reaper two thirds of the way in, its still Saren we fight and race after, not Sovereign. A Reaper was the main antagonist of ME2 however, but its not till the very end when we discover Harbinger was controlling the Collector General and the Collectors. The difference with ME2 is, is that up until that point we thought Harbinger was the leader of the Collectors, not a Reaper, and Harbinger was our primary antagonist arguably from Horizon onwards.

TIM and Cerberus were indoctrinated puppets. But there is a difference between how indoctrination is portrayed in ME2, to ME3. And even if we know TIM and Cerberus are pawns of the Reapers, they don't have Harbinger or Sovereign effect them in th same way as Saren or the Collector General are controlled.

And the Catalyst is not our primary antagonist either.

Either he's too stupid to even fit into a proper character type, or he is just too grey, but his encounter was not our 'final' boss battle, our battle of the mind with TIM was.

[BloodyMares]

What battle of minds with TIM? It was just a sequence of morality checks and you could win simply by taking a renegade interrupt.

[dorktainian]

Synthesis is the Golden Ending. 

 

Only for the reapers.

 

Destroy, ergo The Breath scene is the Best ending of the 3 choices as it was in the original cut.

[BloodyMares]

Only for the reapers.

And for the writers as well.