305 réponses à ce sujet

[GoldenGail3]

Believe me I've heard all his dialogues and complaints, it's ok that he hates Loghain, but if he lives, then he doesn't only betray HoF and the Grey Wardens, he also betrays his country and his family he abandons everyone to die just because his tantrum, he maybe didn't know how but he knew that only Grey Wardens can take down an Archdemon, yet he runs away, all he cares about is his vengeance, you can be either an angel or the biggest jerk on the world, that doesn't matter as long he can get his vengeance, however if you refuse, he'll just dump everything you may have done for him, so at the end of the day, he is not better than Loghain, furthermore he also murdered Yavana and turned against the Inquisitor (both count as betrayals and Darkspawn Chronicles is not on display to show us what a good person he is), all he does is get aid from people and turn on them when they are not longer useful to him. Yes, I do hate Alistair but you better understand that such hate is not fortuitous.
Besides, the discussion was that he is worse traitor than Morrigan, which is quite true, if you want Loghain to pay for what he has done, you either execute him or even better: you have some poetic justice on him and then abandon him to die on the Fade.

Oh yeah? I understand people doing stupid things when you let the man that killed his family live. He likes to think of the GW as family; and then you let the man that killed his family live; he ran away out of stupidity and youth.

And he isn't a pre say traitor; he's an idiot who ran out away out of not thinking correctly and becuase you refused to let the man that killed his family live. You know, I felt so bad for him during his drunken camoe in DA2 ; he obivously regrets running away. He became a roving drunk over it, poor guy. And some people want Alistair to just 'move on with it' like a dog. It's obivous the hate that you feel for him comes off the fact that he refuses to fight with you and the man that killed his father.

You know what I would've pefered? If they allowed Loghian to live, but put him in a cell and made him kill the Archdemon. Killing the two of them. Yeah, I would've done that ending 100% but unfornately, I have to kill him,

[9TailsFox]

 

If he will renounce to his plan sure,he can live even for others million of years if he wish ,he is pretty benevolent  towards everyone in DAI until the last Dlc.......

and if he truly want to kill everyone included his lover Lavellan..... we must stop him also for his sake.

 

 

You are truly incapable to see the contradiction of your own statement?

She said "i will be more useful to you, for your quest if you will do this favor to me.

Did she helped in Denerim?Answer no ,so i took that as another lie,words that she did not  maintained hence betrayal

She did not maintained her words,Is pretty unfair to try to dance around her words like somebody else tried to do and like Morrigan also love to do. 

 

Morrigan did not help really?

1)In Denerim she is only reason Warden is alive, and she never lied about leaving she told it before battle "After battle I am leaving" and "And you never see your child" ok fine part about child was lie.

2)Inquisition she tells how to kill Cory, turn into freaking dragon and take down half of dragons HP and almost die helping Inquisition.

If this is not help I don't know what is.

[sniper_arrow]

Morrigan did not help really?

1)In Denerim she is only reason Warden is alive, and she never lied about leaving she told it before battle "After battle I am leaving" and "And you never see your child" ok fine part about child was lie.

2)Inquisition she tells how to kill Cory, turn into freaking dragon and take down half of dragons HP and almost die helping Inquisition.

If this is not help I don't know what is.

 

These only happen if you let her do the DR and drink the WoS. 

 

In a way, it was an eye for an eye. The "you help me, I help you" scenario, only by complying Morrigan's terms.

[Andromelek]

Oh yeah? I understand people doing stupid things when you let the man that killed his family live. He likes to think of the GW as family; and then you let the man that killed his family live; he ran away out of stupidity and youth.
And he isn't a pre say traitor; he's an idiot who ran out away out of not thinking correctly and becuase you refused to let the man that killed his family live. You know, I felt so bad for him during his drunken camoe in DA2 ; he obivously regrets running away. He became a roving drunk over it, poor guy. And some people want Alistair to just 'move on with it' like a dog. It's obivous the hate that you feel for him comes off the fact that he refuses to fight with you and the man that killed his father.
You know what I would've pefered? If they allowed Loghian to live, but put him in a cell and made him kill the Archdemon. Killing the two of them. Yeah, I would've done that ending 100% but unfornately, I have to kill him,

No, he likes to think of Duncan as his family (if that is worth for something because nothing changes that he also abandons his "real" family for his tantrum) , if he would see the Order as family he would accept that a Senior Warden and the dude he put in power accepted to spare Loghain to fight the Blight, but instead he betrayed the Order.

None of the things you said changes the fact that he also left Ferelden to it's fate (including his family) for a tantrum and that after that he still betraying people if given the chance, also, regret, for leaving? He was speaking crap of the Wardens and for some reason also of Morrigan, the only reason of why he left the tavern was because of Teagan, who told him to move his whiny ass out of there.

If I hate him is not only for refusing to fight alongside Loghain and deserting (thus betraying the Grey Wardens and Ferelden) perhaps I could have spared him if he would have done that only once, but the fact is that he did the same crap three times, again all he does is complaining, getting help from someone and then using whatever stupid excuse to turn against them, you like it or not, he is a filthy and selfish traitor that drops people once they are not useful to him. I really wish I could have a proper way to punish him for that.

[Secret Rare]

Morrigan did not help really?

1)In Denerim she is only reason Warden is alive, and she never lied about leaving she told it before battle "After battle I am leaving" and "And you never see your child" ok fine part about child was lie.

2)Inquisition she tells how to kill Cory, turn into freaking dragon and take down half of dragons HP and almost die helping Inquisition.

If this is not help I don't know what is.

Yes really

1)The ritual is not mandatory,my warden was never saved by her she just tried to use me for her own ends(2 grimoires and the fight against Flemeth) and immediately left before the battle after an year of lies and after suggested the murdering of the entire family of the warden ,obviously she even called my warden a fool before to leave with that smile on her face

She had her deserved retribution in Wh with Ariane best regards,i truly wanted that Ariane would have been the one to stab her..

 

2)Some writer just wanted to force this choice on the players,i never wanted the well of sorrow and certainly i didn't wanted to give it to Morrigan,so she killed the elf in order to force one of us to drink from it,ultimately it was the Mythal guardian who injured the red lyrium dragon not Morrigan

(in the end i had an elf inquisitor so  it was less of a damage to use that well of sorrow but again i did not wanted the wll of sorrow i was forced by Morrigan act of mudering) and obviously the Mythal guardian had to die in the battle,while Morrigan had to survive because of plot armor.

 

 but the fact is that he did the same crap three times

Three times what?

I didn't like Alistair desertion  but i fixed that with the marriage so he and Loghain were both at disposal against the blight.

[Andromelek]

Three times what?
I didn't like Alistair desertion but i fixed that with the marriage so he and Loghain were both at disposal against the blight.

Three times that he betrays people who saved him.

As I recall the marriage only works if the brat is hardened and HoF its a male, so, most of times it ends with desertion, besides it doesn't prevent the other two betrayals, for the contrary, he betrays the Inquisition if it's King, so wherever you move it he will keep the traitor condition.

[Secret Rare]

Three times that he betrays people who saved him.
 

I don't understand who are these people

Flemeth? Is Morrigan who ordered her death not Alistair

Yavana? She tried to blackmail him for her dragon pet she and Flemeth forced Maric to leave indefinitely from Ferelden and sucked his blood,to me the witch deserved that,they used his father for their own ends and their machinations deprived Ferelden of Maric.

the third person i don't know who is,if the Warden it depend on player choice, afterall you're asking him to accept a traitor without even give to him the throne of his family.

[berelinde]

I really, really wish people would stop taking Alistair's tantrum so seriously. It was stupidly out of character for him, but it was necessary because it allowed Loghain to join the party. Game mechanics. You don't need two sword-and-board warriors, so Alistair had to go, and there had to be a way to get him out of the party. Sheesh.

[Andromelek]

I don't understand who are these people
Flemeth? Is Morrigan who ordered her death not Alistair
Yavana? She tried to blackmail him for her dragon pet she and Flemeth forced Maric to leave indefinitely from Ferelden and sucked his blood,to me the witch deserved that,they used his father for their own ends and their machinations deprived Ferelden of Maric.
the third person i don't know who is,if the Warden it depend on player choice, afterall you're asking him to accept a traitor without even give to him the throne of his family.

HoF, Yavana and the Inquisition (Somehow I suspect you don't read since I did mentioned 2/3 on the post above)

If I didn't mention Yavana was because you have proven to be anti-mage on the few posts I've seen of you, so I'll say it just once:

Maric agreed such terms with Flemeth , she didn't forced him to gunpoint, so Maric is the guilty for accepting such terms and leaving Ferelden and Yavana just doesn't have telepathic skills so she had no word on such deal, excluding the fact that once again it's pure speculation that things would be better with Maric since the military mind it's Loghain not him, and Yavana only tried to convince him once she saved him and she never tried at any point use the brute force to force Alistair to anything (even when she had enough power to do so) for the contrary she told him to leave more than once, so, yes, it does count as betrayal, he didn't hide his despise for her and even attempted to murder her without any valid reason, and when he killed her he blamed her for taking Maric from him, while on both true and fake story it was Maric who willingly kicked him off.

In what I concern, the treacherous whiny brats such like Alistair and "Ben" have to be punished, but not with death, for that would be rather a mercy.

[TheKomandorShepard]

HoF, Yavana and the Inquisition (Somehow I suspect you don't read since I did mentioned 2/3 on the post above)

If I didn't mention Yavana was because you have proven to be anti-mage on the few posts I've seen of you, so I'll say it just once:

Maric agreed such terms with Flemeth , she didn't forced him to gunpoint, so Maric is the guilty for accepting such terms and leaving Ferelden and Yavana just doesn't have telepathic skills so she had no word on such deal, excluding the fact that once again it's pure speculation that things would be better with Maric since the military mind it's Loghain not him, and Yavana only tried to convince him once she saved him and she never tried at any point use the brute force to force Alistair to anything (even when she had enough power to do so) for the contrary she told him to leave more than once, so, yes, it does count as betrayal, he didn't hide his despise for her and even attempted to murder her without any valid reason, and when he killed her he blamed her for taking Maric from him, while on both true and fake story it was Maric who willingly kicked him off.

In what I concern, the treacherous whiny brats such like Alistair and "Ben" have to be punished, but not with death, for that would be rather a mercy.

 

LoL so much hate.

 

I belive we had that discussion to betray someone you need to have binding bond, there was no bond Alistair to betray.Yavana saw Alistair as puppet to use and Alistair rightly didn't trust her from get go that was their relationship that she didn't tried force him physically doesn't make her his ally fact is she tried to exploit and manipulate Alistair for own questionable goals all that while not giving damn about Alistair. Second Alistair had many valid reasons to stab her in fact almost any sane person would have them.So pretty much your reason is i hate Alistair and like Yavana thus betrayal.

[sniper_arrow]

LoL so much hate.

 

I belive we had that discussion to betray someone you need to have binding bond, there was no bond Alistair to betray.Yavana saw Alistair as puppet to use and Alistair rightly didn't trust her from get go that was their relationship that she didn't tried force him physically doesn't make her his ally fact is she tried to exploit and manipulate Alistair for own questionable goals all that while not giving damn about Alistair. Second Alistair had many valid reasons to stab her in fact almost any sane person would have them.So pretty much your reason is i hate Alistair and like Yavana thus betrayal.

 

Basically, almost all of Andromelek's posts involves hating Alistair to the core. 

 

I only read the summary of the comic books in DA Wiki, but was it ever implied that maybe Yavana did want Alistair to kill her for some reason? 

[Andromelek]

LoL so much hate.

I belive we had that discussion to betray someone you need to have binding bond, there was no bond Alistair to betray.Yavana saw Alistair as puppet to use and Alistair rightly didn't trust her from get go that was their relationship that she didn't tried force him physically doesn't make her his ally fact is she tried to exploit and manipulate Alistair for own questionable goals all that while not giving damn about Alistair. Second Alistair had many valid reasons to stab her in fact almost any sane person would have them.So pretty much your reason is i hate Alistair and like Yavana thus betrayal.

And I told you that she told him to go away more than once, that his reason to kill her were stupid and that he was bound and owed her after she healed his mercs to save him and helped him to get the name of the kidnaper, anyway, screwing up on peace talks also counts as betrayal, Gaider called for Origins to justify that his actions were not out of character in the Silent Grove, so I won't loose my time with you, since your best argument to whitewash him from Origins betrayal was saying that "duty is a stupid thing to force you to do things" and LOL, with "sane" you mean people like you? And again no, it started with Origins, but he falls lower and lower since the Darkspawn Chronicles.

[TheKomandorShepard]

And I told you that she told him to go away more than once, that his reason to kill her were stupid and that he was bound and owed her after she healed his mercs to save him and helped him to get the name of the kidnaper, anyway, screwing up on peace talks also counts as betrayal, Gaider called for Origins to justify that his actions were not out of character in the Silent Grove, so I won't loose my time with you, since your best argument to whitewash him from Origins betrayal was saying that "duty is a stupid thing to force you to do things"

And? That she told him to go away doesn't change fact that she tried to manipulate and exploit him later.He didn't owe her anything , because in first place he didn't do any deals with her and wasn't even present when Varric and Isabela went to her for help, second she refused to help Varric and Isabela until she realized she can exploit Alistair. No, it doesn't ,once again Alistair and Yavana had no obligations in any form between each other thus Alistair couldn't betray her.Im not whitwashing him just refute your irrational opinion about Alistair based your hatred toward him what i proved many times like your claims that Alistair hates mages.Also not rly my best argument, once again in order for Alistair leave in dragon age origins you have team up with person that indirectly killed his friends and comrades while granting that person something that Alistair saw as honor what crossed line in Alistair eyes , and yes duty is nothing more than belief that you or someone is obligated to do something. 

[GoldenGail3]

LoL so much hate.

 

I belive we had that discussion to betray someone you need to have binding bond, there was no bond Alistair to betray.Yavana saw Alistair as puppet to use and Alistair rightly didn't trust her from get go that was their relationship that she didn't tried force him physically doesn't make her his ally fact is she tried to exploit and manipulate Alistair for own questionable goals all that while not giving damn about Alistair. Second Alistair had many valid reasons to stab her in fact almost any sane person would have them.So pretty much your reason is i hate Alistair and like Yavana thus betrayal.

 

Wow   I've gotta say i approve of this post. 

[Andromelek]

And? That she told him to go away doesn't change fact that she tried to manipulate and exploit him later.He didn't owe her anything , because in first place he didn't do any deals with her and wasn't even present when Varric and Isabela went to her for help, second she refused to help Varric and Isabela until she realized she can exploit Alistair. No, it doesn't ,once again Alistair and Yavana had no obligations in any form between each other thus Alistair couldn't betray her.Im not whitwashing him just refute your irrational opinion about Alistair based your hatred toward him what i proved many times like your claims that Alistair hates mages.Also not rly my best argument, once again in order for Alistair leave in dragon age origins you have team up with person that killed his friends and comrades while granting that person something that Alistair saw as honor what crossed line in Alistair eyes , and yes duty is nothing more than belief that you or someone is obligated to do something.

Something as simple as being some person's guest is already a bound, perhaps not to be called friend but you can't rob or break the things on its house, even less kill such person, now it comes the ridiculous part on your post, once again I didn't called him mage hater, I supported a comment on which he was called as such, then I took back the argument and the most ridiculous part is that Detzyn was the one that made me take back the argument (you were arguing against her for Sebastian), so do not dare to claim victories that you did not get, I submit to logic, if there would be any logic reason to not see him as a traitor I would have taken it, but hell, every time he shows up he proves that I'm damn right, Origins: Deserted for a tantrum even when a Senior Warden was the one on made the suggestion, DC: He took every amoral decision to be taken and even some that couldn't be taken, Silent Grove I think I've made clear my point and my personal new favourite I run to save his crappy land and he sends his uncle to directly disband my Inquisition, if he shows up on DA4 I'm certain that he will do some treacherous crap on someone. By the way, if that's your vision of duty then you should not point out people like Thrask to blame them.

[Andromelek]

Wow   I've gotta say i approve of this post.

Is that bias for Alistair?

[TheKomandorShepard]

Something as simple as being some person's guest is already a bound, perhaps not to be called friend but you can't rob or break the things on its house, even less kill such person, now it comes the ridiculous part on your post, once again I didn't called him mage hater, I supported a comment on which he was called as such, then I took back the argument and the most ridiculous part is that Detzyn was the one that made me take back the argument (you were arguing against her for Sebastian), so do not dare to claim victories that you did not get, I submit to logic, if there would be any logic reason to not see him as a traitor I would have taken it, but hell, every time he shows up he proves that I'm damn right, Origins: Deserted for a tantrum even when a Senior Warden was the one on made the suggestion, DC: He took every amoral decision to be taken and even some that couldn't be taken, Silent Grove I think I've made clear my point and my personal new favourite I run to save his crappy land and he sends his uncle to directly disband my Inquisition, if he shows up on DA4 I'm certain that he will do some treacherous crap on someone. By the way, if that's your vision of duty then you should not point out people like Thrask to blame them.

Except Alistair isn't her guest and isn't there to bond with her in her home , as well you could accuse burglar of betrayal because he was on someone property in fact this isn't even that person property.The only way it would be betrayal if Alistair had clear guest and owner relationship they didn't. Yes you did claim Alistair hated mages , that you supported someone claims the he does is exactly the same thing.I can claim victory many times because i spoke truth and i can prove it. In Origins it is possible see him as traitor on certain levels i never claimed otherwise but as i said he had reasons that hold ground on emotional and moral basis , but your claims that he betrayed Yavana despite pretty much lack of any sort obligations to her and their relationship being negative is ridiculous.He had right so to demand disbanding Inquisition after all Inquisition officiated on territory of his country while disrespecting Ferelden rules and authorities and that they helped doesn't change that. I never said i have problem with Thrask on moral basis because he turned on Meredith i said i have problem with Thrask on practical basis because he was fool that threatened society and perhaps even world with his incompetence.

[Donquijote and 59 others]

LoL so much hate.

I belive we had that discussion to betray someone you need to have binding bond, there was no bond Alistair to betray.Yavana saw Alistair as puppet to use and Alistair rightly didn't trust her from get go that was their relationship that she didn't tried force him physically doesn't make her his ally fact is she tried to exploit and manipulate Alistair for own questionable goals all that while not giving damn about Alistair.

With some adjustment i believe that this same description may be fitting for Morrigan as well.
Also i completly agree about what you said in regard of the word duty.
The notion that someone is a traitor
because they didn't remained loyal to the "uniform" under critical circumstances is obviously a militaristic point of view and it work only with that mindset, which i personally dislike.
From a point of view based on the personal relationship however did really people expected that Alistair was supposed to be just ok with the recruitment of Loghain after what he did to his family, to his half-brother?
If the warden is not even willing to give him the throne with Anora he will go and i don't blame him.
Morrigan on the other hand is the one who deceived the warden from the start, who lied and also unlike Yavana had potentially a strong bond with the Warden even be a lover, and yet she will abandon them if they will refuse to being used like puppets from her.
Now according to what i read in several comments Morrigan didn't betrayed the warden from a militaristic point of view because she wasn't a warden, however she still betrayed them as a friend or a lover the moment she decided to deceive them to use them for her own ends.
I truly dislike that people are only capable to argument with the militaristic point of view, instead to focus the attention on the relationship when they talk about betrayal.

My opinion of course

-What Alistair did to Yavana wasn't a betrayal we can consider it a murderer

-Alistair leaving because of Loghain is a betrayal from a militaristic point of view only, the warden saved the man that was responsible for most of his pain.

-Morrigan leaving a friend or a lover who helped her
(this by far more worse since she is more rude when she leave with a romanced warden)after an year spent to deceive them is a personal betrayal.

[TheKomandorShepard]

With some adjustment i believe that this same description may be fitting for Morrigan as well.
Also i completly agree about what you said in regard of the word duty.
The notion that someone is a traitor
because they didn't remained loyal to the "uniform" under critical circumstances is obviously a militaristic point of view and it work only with that mindset, which i personally dislike.
From a different point of view which however did really people expected that Alistair was supposed to be just ok with the recruitment of Loghain after what he did to his family, to his half-brother?
If the warden is not even willing to give him the throne with Anora he will go and i don't blame him.
Morrigan on the other hand is the one who decieved the warden from the start, who lied and also unlike Yavana had potentially a strong bond with the Warden even be a lover, and yet she will abandon them if they will refuse to being used like puppets from her.
Now according to what i read in several comments Morrigan didn't betrayed the warden from a militaristic point of view because she wasn't a warden, however she still betrayed them as a friend or a lover the moment she decided to deceive them to use them for her own ends.
I truly dislike that people are only capable to argument with the militaristic point of view, the word duty as well as the uniform instead to focus the attention on the relationship when they talk about betrayal.

 

Well i think that what Alistair did in dao is betrayal because he had legal obligations toward grey wardens so pretty much that would fall under desertion, but toward Yavana he had no obligations whatsoever.

I agree that Morrigan can to betray you as a friend and lover but i would add she can betray you as member of team that you are leader of , after all she willingly joined your party under clear goal to stop blight.

[Andromelek]

With some adjustment i believe that this same description may be fitting for Morrigan as well.
Also i completly agree about what you said in regard of the word duty.
The notion that someone is a traitor
because they didn't remained loyal to the "uniform" under critical circumstances is obviously a militaristic point of view and it work only with that mindset, which i personally dislike.
From a point of view based on the personal relationship however did really people expected that Alistair was supposed to be just ok with the recruitment of Loghain after what he did to his family, to his half-brother?
If the warden is not even willing to give him the throne with Anora he will go and i don't blame him.
Morrigan on the other hand is the one who deceived the warden from the start, who lied and also unlike Yavana had potentially a strong bond with the Warden even be a lover, and yet she will abandon them if they will refuse to being used like puppets from her.
Now according to what i read in several comments Morrigan didn't betrayed the warden from a militaristic point of view because she wasn't a warden, however she still betrayed them as a friend or a lover the moment she decided to deceive them to use them for her own ends.
I truly dislike that people are only capable to argument with the militaristic point of view, instead to focus the attention on the relationship when they talk about betrayal.

Arguing if the Architect's means were right or if Corypheus should be used to fight the Blight are critícal circunstances, What does sparing Loghain have of "critical"? He is just one dude that no longer means a threat, and that even surrended.

[AlanC9]

.
-Morrigan leaving a friend or a lover who helped her
(this by far more worse since she is more rude when she leave with a romanced warden)after an year spent to deceive them is a personal betrayal.

Are we talking about her leaving after the battle, or before the battle?

[Andromelek]

Except Alistair isn't her guest and isn't there to bond with her in her home , as well you could accuse burglar of betrayal because he was on someone property in fact this isn't even that person property.The only way it would be betrayal if Alistair had clear guest and owner relationship they didn't. Yes you did claim Alistair hated mages , that you supported someone claims the he does is exactly the same thing.I can claim victory many times because i spoke truth and i can prove it. In Origins it is possible see him as traitor on certain levels i never claimed otherwise but as i said he had reasons that hold ground on emotional and moral basis , but your claims that he betrayed Yavana despite pretty much lack of any sort obligations to her and their relationship being negative is ridiculous.He had right so to demand disbanding Inquisition after all Inquisition officiated on territory of his country while disrespecting Ferelden rules and authorities and that they helped doesn't change that. I never said i have problem with Thrask on moral basis because he turned on Meredith i said i have problem with Thrask on practical basis because he was fool that threatened society and perhaps even world with his incompetence.

A burglar doesn't have permited to enter on a property, Alistair had, and yes, the temple might not belong to Yavana but the owner was standing over there and is Yavana's friend, I don't think you would like that someone enters on your house to murder a friend that did a lot for you. And no, you can't, it was deztyn, the time that I saw logic on your argument was regarding another matter. And that's why I think your arguments are incoherent, Alistair leaving it's on practical basis, (as well in moral since he abandons his family and his country) any deserter means a threat for the Order and the dude is a quite loudmouth drunk, yet you wanted to argue that he was not betraying the Order.

[GoldenGail3]

Is that bias for Alistair?

 

Oh? I've heard so much Alistair hate on this forum, it doesn't really bother me anymore, to be honest.

[TheKomandorShepard]

A burglar doesn't have permited to enter on a property, Alistair had, and yes, the temple might not belong to Yavana but the owner was standing over there and is Yavana's friend, I don't think you would like that someone enters on your house to murder a friend that did a lot for you. And no, you can't, it was deztyn, the time that I saw logic on your argument was regarding another matter. And that's why I think your arguments are incoherent, Alistair leaving it's on practical basis, (as well in moral since he abandons his family and his country) any deserter means a threat for the Order and the dude is a quite loudmouth drunk, yet you wanted to argue that he was not betraying the Order.

In first place once again Yavana wasn't owner she had no legal claims to these lands , second that Yavana agreed to Alistair to be there (and in first place as i said would mean nothing as she isn't owner) doesn't mean Alistair agreed to play role of her guest and submit under her rules because he didn't so that person let burglar in doesn't change bulglar had no agreement/obligation to break because he never agreed  , once again he wasn't there to bond with her and he made it pretty clear. And yes i can , once again you have supported claim thus also making it your own claim, if i support somone claims that morrigan eat babies it will be also mine claim . LoL , how my arguments are incoherent didn't i said i see it as desertion on Alistair part and that is my objective PoV, on moral part on other hand Order and The warden failed to meet his moral expectations thus he leaves , also stop making stuff up he didn't abandon his family because he doesn't have one save for Goldana and they aren't on good term, unless you mean grey wardens that he saw as family what isn't longer in case because they failed to respect others deceased members of said family. My arguments are coherent , but you simply can't comprehend what im talking about as your opposite to what i said statement showed.

[GoldenGail3]

In first place once again Yavana wasn't owner she had no legal claims to these lands , second that Yavana agreed to Alistair to be there doesn't mean Alistair agreed to play role of her guest and submit under her rules because he didn't so that person let burglar in doesn't change bulglar had no agreement/obligation to break because he never agreed  , once again he wasn't there to bond with her and he made it pretty clear. And yes i can , once again you have supported claim thus also making it your own claim, if i support somone claims that morrigan eat babies it will be also mine claim . LoL , how my arguments are incoherent didn't i said i see it as desertion on Alistair part and that is my objective PoV, on moral part on other hand Order and The warden failed to meet his moral expectations thus he leaves , also stop making stuff up he didn't abandon his family because he doesn't have one save for Goldana and they aren't on good term, unless you mean grey wardens that he saw as family what isn't longer in case because they failed to respect others deceased members of said family.So pretty much on moral part as well you could   

 

Omg, i can't believe...