305 réponses à ce sujet

[Donquijote and 59 others]

i would add she can betray you as member of team that you are leader of , after all she willingly joined your party under clear goal to stop blight.

I can personally accept this point , but i also believe that this argument is more delicate so we have to be careful in the considerations in order to left untouched the freedom of others.

If the warden treated very badly the party members then i'm of the opinion that they are free to go if they feel uncomfortable with the warden as a leader, they are not machine afterall.

If they joined you but at the same time they made clear from the start that they wanted something from you in return ,more or less what Shale did since she offered help if the warden could have allowed her to seek answers with this journey if the opportunity was presented.
So i do not consider a betrayal Shale leaving or attacking a warden who decided to kill an important source of information and also a friend for her.
 

[Donquijote and 59 others]

Are we talking about her leaving after the battle, or before the battle?

Before since on this scenario she also told to him to die or survive in regret while also called him a fool, great love indeed...she also said that she didn't even cared for his life before to leave.
What was the dialogue, more or less:
"Die if you think that is worthwile i care not, should you live i trust that will only be in regret" with a sadistic smile
The warden refused to be her personal tool so she didn't cared anymore despite she received great help against Flemeth(Morrigan cannot be in a love status if the warden don't help her with Flemeth) that's just show how false as a person she was.
She cared so long as she used the Warden as a minion.

[GoldenGail3]

I can't believe this time around i'm agreeing with TSK!

[canarius]

Yeah kill Morrigan, the best character in all Dragon Age games. What a brilliant idea!!

[Andromelek]

In first place once again Yavana wasn't owner she had no legal claims to these lands , second that Yavana agreed to Alistair to be there (and in first place as i said would mean nothing as she isn't owner) doesn't mean Alistair agreed to play role of her guest and submit under her rules because he didn't so that person let burglar in doesn't change bulglar had no agreement/obligation to break because he never agreed  , once again he wasn't there to bond with her and he made it pretty clear. And yes i can , once again you have supported claim thus also making it your own claim, if i support somone claims that morrigan eat babies it will be also mine claim . LoL , how my arguments are incoherent didn't i said i see it as desertion on Alistair part and that is my objective PoV, on moral part on other hand Order and The warden failed to meet his moral expectations thus he leaves , also stop making stuff up he didn't abandon his family because he doesn't have one save for Goldana and they aren't on good term, unless you mean grey wardens that he saw as family what isn't longer in case because they failed to respect others deceased members of said family. My arguments are coherent , but you simply can't comprehend what im talking about as your opposite to what i said statement showed.

Of course, I forgot to use these:("") anyway, when I say that he abandons his "family" I rather mean Eamon and Teagan (actually Goldana is not his family, as I recall, the boy that was born died with the mother), and he clearly considers the Guerrin his family, to the point that he utterly blames you if Isolde or Connor were killed, you understand that point now?

[Andromelek]

I can't believe this time around i'm agreeing with TSK!

Likely because I'm the one speaking against the character you love.

[ModernAcademic]

I belong to the team that used to execute Loghain at the Landsmeet. but after reading Stolen Throne and the Calling, I came to realise that without Loghain, Ferelden would never exist.

 

In Stolen Throne, I was appalled to read that Maric was just a brainless, idiotic prince without any ruling capability or the necessary military skills to command men. His mother, Moira, the Rebel Queen, never taught him to be a leader. And Loghain criticizes Maric several times throughout the book for his lack of grit, competence and persistance.

 

As a matter of fact, it's distubing to see how much Cailan and Alistair take after their father. It makes me wonder why would Loghain admire Maric at all and speak so highly of him. It's like the Maric that's mentioned in the game was a different king from the one in the books.

 

The only one with the skills and the inner strength to lead the war against the Orlesians and end the occupation was Loghain. And YES, he was right to mistrust the Grey Wardens after seeing how Orlais had used the Order not once, but SEVERAL TIMES OVER as a prelude to a new occupation.

 

Loghain's concerns were genuine. He was not a power-mad villain trying to steal the throne. He was rightfully concerned about his homeland.

 

The problem is that OUR Warden doesn't know anything at all about Orlais. Which is why players are so ready to condemn Loghain.

 

There, I've said my piece.

[GoldenGail3]

Of course, I forgot to use these:("") anyway, when I say that he abandons his "family" I rather mean Eamon and Teagan (actually Goldana is not his family, as I recall, the boy that was born died with the mother), and he clearly considers the Guerrin his family, to the point that he utterly blames you if Isolde or Connor were killed, you understand that point now?

That's because your splitting up the family he lived with through his really bad childhood, although Isolde had thought 'Oh he's the bastard son of Eamon! How dare he reside here!' and made him sleep in the bard. Although, Isolde is a total idiot who'd i'd kill every single. Bloody. Time. 

[GoldenGail3]

Likely because I'm the one speaking against the character you love.

 

Nah, it's fine actually. Go ahead, it's online. 

[GoldenGail3]

I belong to the team that used to execute Loghain at the Landsmeet. but after reading Stolen Throne and the Calling, I came to realise that without Loghain, Ferelden would never exist.

 

In Stolen Throne, I was appalled to read that Maric was just a brainless, idiotic prince without any ruling capability or the necessary military skills to command men. His mother, Moira, the Rebel Queen, never taught him to be a leader. And Loghain criticizes Maric several times throughout the book for his lack of grit, competence and persistance.

 

As a matter of fact, it's distubing to see how much Cailan and Alistair take after their father. It makes me wonder why would Loghain admire Maric at all and speak so highly of him. It's like the Maric that's mentioned in the game was a different king from the one in the books.

 

The only one with the skills and the inner strength to lead the war against the Orlesians and end the occupation was Loghain. And YES, he was right to mistrust the Grey Wardens after seeing how Orlais had used the Order not once, but SEVERAL TIMES OVER as a prelude to a new occupation.

 

Loghain's concerns were genuine. He was not a power-mad villain trying to steal the throne. He was rightfully concerned about his homeland.

 

The problem is that OUR Warden doesn't know anything at all about Orlais. Which is why players are so ready to condemn Loghain.

 

There, I've said my piece.

 

Reasonable points you make there.

[Donquijote and 59 others]

Yeah kill Morrigan, the best character in all Dragon Age games. What a brilliant idea!!

 Morrigan isn't to me the best character she is not even in my top 10 list so i will say that is entirely subjective.

Shale is my favourite

[sniper_arrow]

I belong to the team that used to execute Loghain at the Landsmeet. but after reading Stolen Throne and the Calling, I came to realise that without Loghain, Ferelden would never exist.

 

In Stolen Throne, I was appalled to read that Maric was just a brainless, idiotic prince without any ruling capability or the necessary military skills to command men. His mother, Moira, the Rebel Queen, never taught him to be a leader. And Loghain criticizes Maric several times throughout the book for his lack of grit, competence and persistance.

 

As a matter of fact, it's distubing to see how much Cailan and Alistair take after their father. It makes me wonder why would Loghain admire Maric at all and speak so highly of him. It's like the Maric that's mentioned in the game was a different king from the one in the books.

 

The only one with the skills and the inner strength to lead the war against the Orlesians and end the occupation was Loghain. And YES, he was right to mistrust the Grey Wardens after seeing how Orlais had used the Order not once, but SEVERAL TIMES OVER as a prelude to a new occupation.

 

Loghain's concerns were genuine. He was not a power-mad villain trying to steal the throne. He was rightfully concerned about his homeland.

 

The problem is that OUR Warden doesn't know anything at all about Orlais. Which is why players are so ready to condemn Loghain.

 

There, I've said my piece.

 

Don't forget Maric banging every elven chick in both books. Loghain admired him because he considers him as his friend, despite their differences. 

 

I think Loghain's only flaw is allying with Howe. It's one of the reasons why most players want to condemn him. 

[Andromelek]

Don't forget Maric banging every elven chick in both books. Loghain admired him because he considers him as his friend, despite their differences. 
 
I think Loghain's only flaw is allying with Howe. It's one of the reasons why most players want to condemn him.

I think Anora perfectly explains that part of Howe, Loghain knows he is a scum as a person, but he is a sharp politician and Loghain needs him to deal with the Landsmeet since he is rather a soldier.

[TheKomandorShepard]

I can personally accept this point , but i also believe that this argument is more delicate so we have to be careful in the considerations in order to left untouched the freedom of others.

If the warden treated very badly the party members then i'm of the opinion that they are free to go if they feel uncomfortable with the warden as a leader, they are not machine afterall.

If they joined you but at the same time they made clear from the start that they wanted something from you in return ,more or less what Shale did since she offered help if the warden could have allowed her to seek answers with this journey if the opportunity was presented.
So i do not consider a betrayal Shale leaving or attacking a warden who decided to kill an important source of information and also a friend for her.

 

Yeah, when you made agreement that involves exchange for example "i will help you with X if you give me or do Y" , problem shows up with that most companions didn't have any terms and just joined your team to stop blight. Personally while i notice moral PoV for example Leliana or Wynne leaving you because they thought you did something inexcusable in their mind and that doesn't make them evil just beacuse they broken agreement , i prefer objective and practical stance on betrayal.

 

 

I can't believe this time around i'm agreeing with TSK!

LoL, i hear that a lot.

 

 

Of course, I forgot to use these:("") anyway, when I say that he abandons his "family" I rather mean Eamon and Teagan (actually Goldana is not his family, as I recall, the boy that was born died with the mother), and he clearly considers the Guerrin his family, to the point that he utterly blames you if Isolde or Connor were killed, you understand that point now?

Alistair thought (and still probably thinks) Goldana is his sister, of course we years later know that Fiona is Alistair mother , but i don't think it is important here so to the point. Of course , he clearly considers Eamon his family but at that point he is against grey wardens and well Ferelden monarch and doesn't want to have anything to do with them, so he could leave or support them nedless to say that he acted on strong emotions (pretty much most humans unfortunately do) and felt betrayed by people he saw as family.  

 

 

[kiki3854]

i think doing the dark ritual like in origins would be great to see. a lot of people who romanced him really wanted to sleep with him. i am curious to see what child from the inquisitor an solas would be like !!?? they should make the next game letting you stay the inquisitor instead of a new character because either killing solas or saving him would be difficult to do. you would want the ending to be personal saying your goodbyes or saving him from himself would be better if you was not the inquisitor the ending would not be as good cause the character would not really know him as a friend or a lover.

[Donquijote and 59 others]

 

In Stolen Throne, I was appalled to read that Maric was just a brainless, idiotic prince without any ruling capability or the necessary military skills to command men. His mother, Moira, the Rebel Queen, never taught him to be a leader. And Loghain criticizes Maric several times throughout the book for his lack of grit, competence and persistance.

 

As a matter of fact, it's distubing to see how much Cailan and Alistair take after their father. 

I warmly agree,i always saw Maric as an idiot without any admirable quality,a womanizer that survived over Loghain shoulders.

Impressive is at how much both Cailan and Alistair took from him ,I truly dislike the Theirn family aside from Arland i didn't liked any of them.

 

 

[Walter Black]

I would like this topic to remain focused about the same discussion,
since i saw too many posts that had nothing to do with it.
 

I will repeat this again if the previous posts weren't clear enough

 

0)

Varel and Woolsey are affiliates of the order,they are there under the first warden orders so they are allowed to know some of their secrets.

When the Grey Wardens took over Amaranthine, they reinstated Varel as seneschal,he is allowed to know the wardens gave him the permission same for Woolsey,she is not a GW but she is still an affiliate to the order Morrigan isn't.

Just like Duncan killed Jory who didn't want to be part of the order after come to know of the joining,my warden can use the same reason to want to eliminate Morrigan for not being part of the Grey but knowing about the US.

She is not part of the grey and traveling with my warden does not make her a grey warden nor an affiliate.

 

 

 

 

1)

Morrigan lied to the Warden during the Flemeth quest, open the toolset check the dialogues and read those descriptions on the dialogues between Flemeth and the Warden
Your pespective here is invalid,it does not matter what she believed of Flemeth plans she also lied and did not revealed the whole truth to the specific question,the whole truth not only what was convenient for her,this is by the definition a deception and a lie.
Evidence from the Toolset vs your personal opinion.


2)Morrigan promised to be more useful to the Warden in return of the 1st tome that was located on the top of Irving's desk, Evidence her Dialogues before to retrive the Grimoire, so the arguments about her being a volunteer , witch, mercenary ecc.. do not disqualify the betrayal, SHE GAVE HER WORD, SHE GAVE HER WORD, SHE GAVE HER WORD for that favor
(I hope that now this can be read by those who seem to conviniently forget this point.)
She can be confronted and accused in WH for betrayal not only because of her lies but also with the desertion angle perceptive (Non DR version) And she do not defend herself with your whole silly "she is just a volunteer " argument she invent the only silly thing that come to her mind
(You abandoned me)
Nope not really, you did , you abandoned me and left the whole world to burn for your phatetics whims.
She inserted herself into the group only to obtain the OGB and left when this was denied, this is the ultimate proof that she was just using me.
The fact that she spent an year and bla, bla, bla(sorry if i don't care i'm not her boyfriend, i'm the leader of this group)was to complete her mission first and foremost yet she did know that the main goal of the Warden was from the start to destroy not to preserve.
(I'm sorry Morrigan has opinion of her own)
I'm sorry that this has nothing to do with what i said, she was not allowed to betray the Warden, because that is a personal betrayal, to lie and decive and use the protagonist for her own advantage against Flemeth
(yes this does count as put the Warden in danger because she lied again TOOLSET)
I do not take her offer because i can't stomach using a child to gain something and using him as bait for a monster and to appeal at her selfish purpose.
I will never do something that i find to be repulsive like the DR and much less i will never allow my char to be the Morrigan obedient's tools.


3) I want to kill her for VENGENCE
Steal that book from the elves  as well as decieve the protagonist and suggested the murderer of the entire Warden family is more than enough.
VENGENCE for the Dalish clan of Ariane and REVENGE for the Warden.

She was the one advocating the murder of others in DAO based only on her psychotic view

-let's just kill all the mages and childs here because is fun and there is nothing to gain.

-let's just kill this merchant in Lothering because is fun

and i'm the one advocating the murderer of others for ideologies and because is fun or because i  dislike a character?

No, my reason is vengeance not a murderer for fun

 

 

4) Where are your evidence?
Again where is stated that Celene is protecting her? This is your claim and nothing more.
Celene is not protecting anyone other than herself and Morrigan is just a subordinate for her not someone to protect, SHE DOES NOT CARE FOR HER LIFE the only thing that protected her was a plot armor in WH and another in DAO
(since it is not possible to attack her in the main game unlike all the others conpanions) and again in DAI where the Red lyrium dragon defeated her and yet unlike the Mythal guardian she survived during the same cinematic scene.
A living being who fall badly from several Km from the sky without protection is destinated TO AN INEVITABLE DEATH, in fact the Mythal guardian die because of that fall, but Gaider forbid her personal pet to die even if she fall from the inner space into the planet.
Oh yes she is just ok after a fall from several Km from the Sky, very realistic...

5) My inquisitor is the leader of the Inquisition and she is allowed to decide what approach to a problem is the best based on her pespective, she is the leader not Morrigan.
Do you have evidence that without the well of sorrow the Inquisition would have failed?
Are you sure that Solas or Abelas would have not provide the info for the inquisition given the fact that was in Solas best interest to kill Corypheus and also didn't cost anything to do this for Abelas?

Iquisitor
"The decision to kill Abelas was mine not yours"

 

pretty much about the whole points of your post non made sense to me except for the very first one that was more about the problems surrounding the death penalty .

 

Damn, that's alot to get worked up over a fictional video game character. What's next, you want to spit in Claudia Black's food? Kick David Gaider in the balls?

[Darth Wraith]

Damn, that's alot to get worked up over a fictional video game character. What's next, you want to spit in Claudia Black's food? Kick David Gaider in the balls?

Welcome to the BioWare forums, where this sort of thing is business as usual.

[Secret Rare]

Damn, that's alot to get worked up over a fictional video game character. What's next, you want to spit in Claudia Black's food? Kick David Gaider in the balls?

 

Welcome to the BioWare forums, where this sort of thing is business as usual.

What?

Welcome to those who don't have any argument and make up stuff who just doesn't make sense for the fun of it.

At any rate merry(upcoming) christmas.

[MidnightWolf]

I warmly agree,i always saw Maric as an idiot without any admirable quality,a womanizer that survived over Loghain shoulders.
Impressive is at how much both Cailan and Alistair took from him ,I truly dislike the Theirn family aside from Arland i didn't liked any of them.

Maric had sexual relations with a grand total of three Women throughout his entire adult life -one of whom he Married. If that's what you call a Womanizer, then I wouldn't like to think of what you'd call the average 20 year in modern day Britain.

[Donquijote and 59 others]

Maric had sexual relations with a grand total of three Women throughout his entire adult life -one of whom he Married. If that's what you call a Womanizer, then I wouldn't like to think of what you'd call the average 20 year in modern day Britain.

Womanizer in the sense that he had no self control, not in the sense that he went looking for every woman of the kingdom.

Whenever he see pretty faces  he lose his mind,he was a weak man who had no sense of loyalty towards his love partners,he cheated Rowan,he killed his lover(yes she was an orlesian spy but he shouldn't had started the relationship to begin with without informing Rowan) and as a king he started a relationship with another woman and completely forgot about his deceased wife as well as Cailan.

Cailan had every right to think poorly of him when he discovered about Alistair

[Donquijote and 59 others]

Replayng DAO i just realized that Morrigan also lied at Flemeth's hut when she said to not know as for why Flemeth helped the 2 Wardens, see the scene with metaknowledge clearly made me impossible to even have her in my party anymore, so much dishonesty here so it was goodbye at Lothering.t
I swear sometime i just want my char to be like Cole in order to detect immediatly those lies, a Spirit.

[myahele]

Solas will probably have a "redemption = death" trope by DA4. Maybe to stop a bigger bad that he unknowingly unleashed

 

Morrigan will live on

[Donquijote and 59 others]

Bioware operate under a policy of giving content to popular characters. This is literally the only way a character can hope for meaningful content.

Having an advocate on the writing staff also helps a character (for which characters like Leliana, Liara and Zevran have profited greatly).

 

But if a character is unpopular, then its the scrap heap for them. Bioware have proven time and again that they cut unpopular content, they don't refine it. So if a character happens to be optional *and* unpopular... forget about ever seeing them again!

 

As for Kieran... he seems to be liked well enough though, from what I can see. For a kid character, he doesn't do anything annoying, and he wins some points for being a chance for Morrigan and Flemeth to have (in their own unique way) a conversation that borders on civil. Once they'd finished trying to kill each other anyway... But that still doesn't mean much, given that Kieran hardly features in the game, and the major scene with him sees him have his most unique quality altered.

 

IMO, that scene is probably supposed to be the resolution for that character. I doubt either he or Morrigan will show up again for a while, if ever. Morrigan herself is really pushing her luck with her plot armour, and some people are getting *really* sick of constantly being jerked around by her character.

[Gaia300]

The reasons why she did it do not invalidate the effect it had which was the salvation of the world.

Also, it is worth noting to Morrigan has no interest in power, she seeks to preserve ancient knowledge and mage for their own sake.

Abelas means sorrow, first and foremost we should remember the name of those who are killed under the false pretence of the "salvation of the world" (of whom i strongly disagree, to me she didn't saved anyone she just murdered someone)under the ends justify the means argument/assumption.
He was murdered in his home for the only crime of protecting his legacy from someone who was acting like a thief and that cowardly killed him at his back and in his home.
Before to die he said that the well of sorrow was ancient knowledge generated by the servants of Mythal, so clearly the only function of the well of sorrow in defeating Corypheus was a metter of the right intel, which is something that him and Solas could have resolved.
It is also worth to nothing that i personally never had any impression that Morrigan was never interested in power over the course of the franchise, she approved of gain of power at the expense of the life of others in several circumstances in DAO .
She demanded the archdemon soul for it's power while refusing to reveal her plans, refuse and she will leave despite the fact that she possibly already owned 2 favors to the warden(since she said after that Flemeth was defeated that she should have returned with the task of dealing with the darkspawns, which revealed to be empty words in my worldstate since she left before to fight the main horde), while the warden owned to her nothing because she and Flemeth never had any term of condition beyond to accept her in the party,yet she leave and in doing so abandon the companions and the whole world to burn, pretty much the opposite of saving the world that was obviously for my impression something of whom Morrigan never cared and most importantly never did.