305 réponses à ce sujet

[Akiza]

 

 

 

 

By contrast, Alistair has a duty to see the blight defeated as a GW, and yet spare Loghain, and he quits the fight and is really the only character in DAO who can truly 'betray' the Warden. Where are the threads wanting the death of Alistair?

 

 

What's the point in requesting something that is already a possibility?

 

Anyhow on the whole betrayal thing,that is a word that possess a lot of connotations,a deceive or a lie can be seen as a form of betrayal,especially if the one who deceive was a friend or a lover rather than a stranger and add to the whole thing that Morrigan in that scenario is just leaving friends to their fate because she didn't gained what she want.

[Ash Wind]

 

What's the point in requesting something that is already a possibility?

Anyhow on the whole betrayal thing,that is a word that possess a lot of connotations,a deceive or a lie can be seen as a form of betrayal,especially if the one who deceive was a friend or a lover rather than a stranger.

and add to the whole thing that Morrigan in that scenario is just leaving friends to their fate because she didn't gained what she want.

At least for all the others companions of DAO i can say that they are quite predictable since neither of them made a secrets of things of whom they will absolutely not agree,AListair included,so i knew what to expect and yet there is always with them the possibility to resolve somehow the conflicts:

1)Made AListair king and you will be able to recruit Loghain without him quitting

2)Harden Leliana and he will not care for the ashes

3)Don't bring Wynne at the temple and he will just return to the cirlce to combat the blight off screen with the others mages (ala darkspawn chronicles)

4)Treat Zevran with a little more of respect and he will not be tempted to return to his old life

and so on

Morrigan instead is impossible to work on,or she have her way or she have his way there are no compromises.

 

Alistair is a GW, his duty is to defeat the blight, regardless of personal opinion or want, no matter what. That's the difference. Morrigan has no oligation to defeat the blight and, unlike Alistair, has not sworn an oath to do so. 

[KCMeredith]

Alistair is a GW, his duty is to defeat the blight, regardless of personal opinion or want, no matter what. That's the difference. Morrigan has no oligation to defeat the blight and, unlike Alistair, has not sworn an oath to do so. 

I said this in another thread but this really is something that makes me want to (at least) knock Alistair out of his boots. Its all "Wardens this" and "Wardens that", I help him with Eamon and find his long lost sister for him and how does he repay me? Refuses to fight with me and Loghain to end the blight because of his personal feelings for the man. Who cares what Loghain did, there is a f*cking archdemon on its way so stop your complaining and lets move. 

 

Having his wife lead the charge on Denerim is the icing on the cake. The queen has to lead the army while the king is....doing what? He's not even at the battle

[Akiza]

Alistair is a GW, his duty is to defeat the blight, regardless of personal opinion or want, no matter what. That's the difference. Morrigan has no oligation to defeat the blight and, unlike Alistair, has not sworn an oath to do so. 

First and foremost the option to kill Alistair for desertion is presented at the Landsmeet through Anora, so honestly i do not understand what you're are demanding exactly,something that already exist? Alistair isn't a writer's pet.

As for Morrigan i already said that betrayal is a word with a lot of shades,lie and a decive are things that may be considered as a personal betrayal for the Warden hence why the option is there in Wh,the Warden may be  felt betrayed without being absolutely wrong.

 

Deceive:

to ​persuade someone that something ​false is the ​truth, or to ​keep the ​truth ​hidden from someone for ​your own ​advantage

 

Lie:

a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood.

something intended or serving to convey a false impression; imposture:

 

 

 

that was basically what Morrigan did and she even admit in Wh.

personally me as a person i don't like this kind of persons.

 

 

Since let us not forget that she inserted herself into the group to obtain the ogb demanding it at the eve of battle when the Warden was possibly at a moment of weakness only to left with a glare or smile depend on relationship and wished for to them the best regrets

(what she say to a romanced Warden).

A romanced or a friend warden  can be easily felt betrayed by someone who they thought was there to help rather than try to gain something from them.

 

@KC meredith if Alistair is king he in Denerim off screen as Eamon said in Redclieffe "he insist to go in battle"

[KaiserShep]

Should the Warden defile the Urn of Sacred Ashes, Wynn and Leliana will not only stop following the Warden, but will attack the them.... where are the Wynn and Leliana hate threads?

 

Oghren and Sten can attack the Warden if approval gets to a certain low.

 

I forgot all about Wynn attacking there, though in defiling the ashes, you basically destroy any chance of saving Eamon, which was the whole reason for going there in the first place. 

 

Sten's is funny though, because if you end up fighting Sten, you can just beat him and he approves. 

[Korva]

Don't like Solas and Morrigan, promptly get insulted. Cute, but not really a surprise.

 

They are writers' pets because they are completely untouchable despite using and betraying those around them in a pretty bad way, and because they essentially steal the role of protagonist. They are the prime example of why the old claim that "it's about the setting, not about the characters" is a blatant lie -- it is very much about them and other NPCs, just very blatantly not the player characters.

 

Personally I would like Bioware to just continue creating the best story they can.

 

That would require them to start doing so in the first place, which IMO they have not done. While I like both Origins and Inquisition, the latter in particular has enough issues with its story to fill a magazine shelf -- such as its disjointed, rushed and shallow treatment of pretty much everything that isn't setting up Solas.

 

If he is your only or primary point of interest, maybe that doesn't bug you so much. But as someone who was always bothered by this, always had the strong impression that none of the supposed main themes in Inquisition were the story that the writers actually wanted to tell, it was a bitter pill to realize that 1) I had been right, and 2) the truth about a character I honestly used to enjoy (for the most part) really soured both him and the game for me. As in "THIS is what they sacrificed a proper treatment of all those other themes for?". Just as the supposed protagonists deserve better than to be depowered and discarded ASAP so they don't get in the way of the real stars of the franchise (the NPCs), the supposed main story deserved better than to just be a backdrop for showing Solas' arguably better sides.

[Lazarillo]

I forgot all about Wynn attacking there, though in defiling the ashes, you basically destroy any chance of saving Eamon, which was the whole reason for going there in the first place.

 

You take a small pouch's worth to heal Eamon no matter what.

[kal_reegar]

I don't like morrigan, and I don't share her goals (things worth preserving? I p******ss on the Archdemon souls and and I p******ss in the wheel of sorrow).

But she is a fair girl.

She joined the Warden willingly, she is not bound by any oath or promise... if she wanted to leave before the battle, why not? Good luck and ciao ciao.

The same can be said about Solas.

They never try to jeopardize your mission: simply, after a certain point, they choose to walk away. No harsh feelings.

 

Alistair "betrayal" is worst. Leaving the Warden is something very very close to desertion. But on the other hand, as king he continue to help you fighting the dark spawn. So yes, Alistair is a spoiled brat, but forgivable.

 

Anders is the worst. No excuse..

 

Iron Bull and Merill (if they decide to betray you) deserve to be killed: they fight with your enemies. Unacceptable.

 

I usually killed Zevran and Valanna on the spot: are you trying to kill me? Yes? So I kill you. I don't care about your reasons. Maybe the genlock I killed five minutes ago had a lot a good reasons to kill me. But I kill him. These are the rules.

[Andromelek]

What's the point in requesting something that is already a possibility?
 
Anyhow on the whole betrayal thing,that is a word that possess a lot of connotations,a deceive or a lie can be seen as a form of betrayal,especially if the one who deceive was a friend or a lover rather than a stranger and add to the whole thing that Morrigan in that scenario is just leaving friends to their fate because she didn't gained what she want.

The problem is that Alistair betrays more than once, I've counted three by far (and four if you want to count Darkspawn Chronicles) Morrigan; at most twice, and she doesn't left her victims on dead situations like Alistair

[GoldenGail3]

The problem is that Alistair betrays more than once, I've counted three by far (and four if you want to count Darkspawn Chronicles) Morrigan; at most twice, and she doesn't left her victims on dead situations like Alistair

You are all Alistair haters. I however, like to think of Alistairs betrayal as more of refusing to fight with the man that killed his entire family, and yet you let him live. How would you feel if the man that killed your family was allowed to live? Not very good, I presume. He isn't a dog, that should all hail the PC! (I get the feeling many people here think of Alistair as a whiny baby over the fact of Loghian. But he is acting like a normal human being in this situation), in my oponion, he ran away over becuase he's young and stupid. The Darkspawn chronicles don't count because it's a AU.

I mean, you guys really didn't take the time to actually talk to Alistair, when he was mourning over Duncan. He was about to cry over Duncan when you mention him, so if you keep Loghian alive, your pretty much keeping the man that killed his parental figure alive. And yet you guys also assume he's whiny becuase he doesn't stay with the PC when you keep Loghian alive. Well, to be honest I usually kill Loghian becuase 1. He puts elves in slavery to a crazed blood Mage. No excuses. 2. He would leave us all to die to Darkspawn because of how parniod he is about Orlaisans. 3. He sends assassins to kill the PC. Yeah.. What Alistair does is just nothing compared to what Loghian does. They're just as guilty (they're both willing to let Ferelden burn to get what they want.) and yet Alistair gets called whiny becuase some people skip past his dialogue...

[Andromelek]

You are all Alistair haters. I however, like to think of Alistairs betrayal as more of refusing to fight with the man that killed his entire family, and yet you let him live. How would you feel if the man that killed your family was allowed to live? Not very good, I presume. He isn't a dog, that should all hail the PC! (I get the feeling many people here think of Alistair as a whiny baby over the fact of Loghian. But he is acting like a normal human being in this situation), in my oponion, he ran away over becuase he's young and stupid. The Darkspawn chronicles don't count because it's a AU.
I mean, you guys really didn't take the time to actually talk to Alistair, when he was mourning over Duncan. He was about to cry over Duncan when you mention him, so if you keep Loghian alive, your pretty much keeping the man that killed his parental figure alive. And yet you guys also assume he's whiny becuase he doesn't stay with the PC when you keep Loghian alive. Well, to be honest I usually kill Loghian becuase 1. He puts elves in slavery to a crazed blood Mage. No excuses. 2. He would leave us all to die to Darkspawn because of how parniod he is about Orlaisans. 3. He sends assassins to kill the PC. Yeah.. What Alistair does is just nothing compared to what Loghian does. They're just as guilty (they're both willing to let Ferelden burn to get what they want.) and yet Alistair gets called whiny becuase some people skip past his dialogue...

Believe me I've heard all his dialogues and complaints, it's ok that he hates Loghain, but if he lives, then he doesn't only betray HoF and the Grey Wardens, he also betrays his country and his family he abandons everyone to die just because his tantrum, he maybe didn't know how but he knew that only Grey Wardens can take down an Archdemon, yet he runs away, all he cares about is his vengeance, you can be either an angel or the biggest jerk on the world, that doesn't matter as long he can get his vengeance, however if you refuse, he'll just dump everything you may have done for him, so at the end of the day, he is not better than Loghain, furthermore he also murdered Yavana and turned against the Inquisitor (both count as betrayals and Darkspawn Chronicles is not on display to show us what a good person he is), all he does is get aid from people and turn on them when they are not longer useful to him. Yes, I do hate Alistair but you better understand that such hate is not fortuitous.

Besides, the discussion was that he is worse traitor than Morrigan, which is quite true, if you want Loghain to pay for what he has done, you either execute him or even better: you have some poetic justice on him and then abandon him to die on the Fade.

[Asch Lavigne]

Solas, yes, I don't see how we can stop him just by saying "please."

 

Morrigan, who knows what she's up to. I think its way too early to drop the axe on her.

[Akiza]

 

But she is a fair girl.

 

 

 

We don't have the same concept of fairness then,she doesn't seem to be particularly fair when she first ask for your help twice

(including put down an High Dragon for her) only to abandon you later and wish for you the best regrets

btb i fully agree with you on the point of things worth to be preserved,what's the point in preserving a stupid homicidal dragon?

 

The problem is that Alistair betrays more than once, I've counted three by far (and four if you want to count Darkspawn Chronicles) Morrigan; at most twice, and she doesn't left her victims on dead situations like Alistair

Just as i said earlier Alistair is not protected by any plot shield,you think that in a specific scenario he is a deserter? Kill him

Unlike Morrigan however he isn't a dishonest,promiscuous liar and thief who abandoned the Warden for the sole  reason that she cared more for a monster rather than the person who helped her

(don't even start to say that she left because she didn't want to see the Warden die because that would be just a contradiction,just No,otherwise she wouldn't have said "live in regret if you survive" before to leave with that smile on her face) ..

Now i do not have any problem with that i don't need an option to kill her so long as she can just disappear like @Berelinde said to Plot Armor Palace on Writer's Pet Island

[roselavellan]

That would require them to start doing so in the first place, which IMO they have not done. While I like both Origins and Inquisition, the latter in particular has enough issues with its story to fill a magazine shelf -- such as its disjointed, rushed and shallow treatment of pretty much everything that isn't setting up Solas.

 

If he is your only or primary point of interest, maybe that doesn't bug you so much. But as someone who was always bothered by this, always had the strong impression that none of the supposed main themes in Inquisition were the story that the writers actually wanted to tell, it was a bitter pill to realize that 1) I had been right, and 2) the truth about a character I honestly used to enjoy (for the most part) really soured both him and the game for me. As in "THIS is what they sacrificed a proper treatment of all those other themes for?". Just as the supposed protagonists deserve better than to be depowered and discarded ASAP so they don't get in the way of the real stars of the franchise (the NPCs), the supposed main story deserved better than to just be a backdrop for showing Solas' arguably better sides.

 

Hmm, I'm sorry that the DA story is not currently to your taste, but I personally really enjoyed it. I thought they wrote both Solas and Morrigan very well, even Fen'Harel Solas, painful as all that has been for my Lavellan. And I'm sure it is precisely because of how well they wrote Solas, in fact, that I have become such a big fan of his.

 

And the themes in DA... are still evolving, aren't they? So stories progress, and we will probably see focus moving on to other things/characters/themes in subsequent games, though the elves will probably remain a large part of Thedas' story. In any case there is no guarantee that people would find those characters/themes more palatable than they've found Solas/Morrigan. Personally, I hope they will be at least as interesting as Solas and Morrigan, even if that means grey/ambiguous characters.

[Tidus]

Alistair has never betrayed my warden after all my warden makes Loghain pay for his crimes against his/her people and a host of other crimes he committed including treason against the Queen.

What does burn my warden is when he came bursting into the room and shouted to one and all "We have to talk!" After that cut scene my male warden decided not to become Alistair's patsy by not doing anything he asks and my female is just happy he's Anora's problem now. She even tells him "There is no us".  Not that she doesn't love him (she does)  but, she wasn't about to become a married man's mistress. My female elf does have standards.

 

Morrigan on the other hand had deceived the warden more then once while doing her mother's bidding. She even doubled crossed her mother by wanting her killed so she could get the old god child.

 

Even in DA:2 Flemeth mentions Morrigan is treacherous. Hawke will need to ask if Morrigan is somebody he should know and if she is Flemeth's enemy or daughter.

[X Equestris]

You take a small pouch's worth to heal Eamon no matter what.

Yeah, but what would have happened if you needed more than what you took?

[ComedicSociopathy]

OK, this doesn't really involve what the OP is talking about, but I've always wondered why the hell Loghain is the only one that can turned into a Warden at the Landsmeet? I mean, seriously, Sten, Oghren, my freaking Dog, none of them can just drink the evil Blight smoothie, really? 

[Andromelek]

OK, this doesn't really involve what the OP is talking about, but I've always wondered why the hell Loghain is the only one that can turned into a Warden at the Landsmeet? I mean, seriously, Sten, Oghren, my freaking Dog, none of them can just drink the evil Blight smoothie, really?

I guess that's because he was the sole dude who either way was a dead man.

[ComedicSociopathy]

I guess that's because he was the sole dude who either way was a dead man.

 

Really...

 

No one else wants to be a Grey Warden with a Blight right on everybody's doorstep? Good God this always annoyed about the Landsmeet and really felt like Bioware slipping in terms of writing. 

[Andromelek]

Really...
 
No one else wants to be a Grey Warden with a Blight right on everybody's doorstep? Good God this always annoyed about the Landsmeet and really felt like Bioware slipping in terms of writing.

If Teagan's hate towards Wardens is generalized to all Fereldan nobility you can forget about it, also, Alistair and Morrigan are the only obligatory companions, you really think Bioware is going to work on a script with too many different choices?

[Andraste_Reborn]

Really...

 

No one else wants to be a Grey Warden with a Blight right on everybody's doorstep? Good God this always annoyed about the Landsmeet and really felt like Bioware slipping in terms of writing. 

 

Yeah, I've always found that really unsatisfying. I mean, Oghren even joins the Wardens later! Wouldn't it make sense for him to put his hand up right then if you don't recruit Loghain? And we sort of conscripted Sten already. I realise it was probably done to limit the number of dads the Keiran can have, but it's still a gaping plot hole.

 

Apparently there were originally plans for the HoF to be able to put all their non-Warden companions through the Joining, but it got cut.

[nightscrawl]

OK, this doesn't really involve what the OP is talking about, but I've always wondered why the hell Loghain is the only one that can turned into a Warden at the Landsmeet? I mean, seriously, Sten, Oghren, my freaking Dog, none of them can just drink the evil Blight smoothie, really? 

 

Some of this really just comes down to what makes a good story-telling device and such, regardless of whether it makes sense, or seems illogical, or whathaveyou. The moment during the Landsmeet when Riordan makes the suggestion, and Alistair's further reaction, is compelling stuff. So while I do agree that, once an experienced GW is found that can perform the Joining, with the supplies available it does make more sense that they would attempt to make as many as possible just as a precautionary measure -- I guarantee there would be plenty of volunteers, even if it was known that one could die in the attempt. But that's not as dramatic as saying, "Well, we only have these three Wardens here, and it's up to them to save us."

[Akiza]

OK, this doesn't really involve what the OP is talking about, but I've always wondered why the hell Loghain is the only one that can turned into a Warden at the Landsmeet? I mean, seriously, Sten, Oghren, my freaking Dog, none of them can just drink the evil Blight smoothie, really? 

To write that contrived tie up for the Dark ritual,if John would have been recruited by Riordan the you as a player would have said

"who cares about John? i have my tool for the archdemon"

[d1ta]

Idk about that, OP..
With Flemmeth passing Mythal's essence to Morrigan... Could be that she'll be the next Morrigan-Mythal come DA4 or DA5. Have an incling suspicion that her story may be FAR from over, although she may / may not appear in game depending on what the writters have in store for her.

Just my 0.02

[nightscrawl]

To write that contrived tie up for the Dark ritual,if John would have been recruited by Riordan the you as a player would have said

"who cares about John? i have my tool for the archdemon"

 

From your post I'm not sure whether you're suggesting that the player would have made the hypothetical John do the DR rather than doing it themselves (or convincing boyfriend Alistair), or wouldn't have bothered because John existed to make the killing blow.

 

If it's the latter, I'll say that the point of the whole big battle is that you can't predict what will happen. What if John gets killed by some other method along the way? A stray arrow or whatever? Riordan had planned to make the killing blow himself, but he died. The DR is a fail-safe that protects ALL of the Wardens during the fight; the PC, Alistair (or Loghain), Riordan, and the hypothetical John, Steve, Ned, and so on.