305 réponses à ce sujet

[Akiza]

 

snip

For Abelas you just have the option of doing the damn rituals,Morrigan never killed him at the temple in this scenario

Yes i agree that the situation is forced,i mean or the Inquisitor will be bound (that is not a problem for a Dalish worshipper of Mythal) or either you're forced to give those powers to her.

Again this is a forced situation generated by the writers exactly like the Dark ritual,since apparently Morrigan is too untrustworthy to gain things without those kind of blackmails from the writers part.

Give me this power or you or your lover/firend will die,give me this power or you will be a slave...probably the writers just realized that under normal circumstances no one would give any kind of power to Morrigan,their blackmails are the only way to tempt some players.

[Akiza]

From your post I'm not sure whether you're suggesting that the player would have made the hypothetical John do the DR rather than doing it themselves (or convincing boyfriend Alistair), or wouldn't have bothered because John existed to make the killing blow.

 

If it's the latter, I'll say that the point of the whole big battle is that you can't predict what will happen. What if John gets killed by some other method along the way? A stray arrow or whatever? Riordan had planned to make the killing blow himself, but he died. The DR is a fail-safe that protects ALL of the Wardens during the fight; the PC, Alistair (or Loghain), Riordan, and the hypothetical John, Steve, Ned, and so on.

The latter.

First and foremost Gaider said that the archdemon blood is just a non essential ingredient to create a Grey warden,so under those circumstances Riordan would have been capable to try to create 5-6-7 or more Grey Wardens.

Second the Dark ritual function is to protect a grey warden and the old god from dying,but in no way will replace a Grey warden,if the archdemon is killed by a regular soldier while Morrigan is kicking around he will just respawn from another darkspawn.

So all in all the dark ritual function is to save the warden in the improbable scenario in which all the others wardens are dead and this one

(who has to be saved from the killing blow) is still alive to fight the archdemon,which would be unlikely

[Tidus]

Even my PC didn't want to become a Grey but,was conscripted by Duncan. Loghain should by all rights be killed for his crimes. Justice demands it.

 

There's no lasting glory in becoming a Grey but, the reward of doing so is heading into the deep roads to answer your calling in about 30 years-if you survive the joining..

[MoonblaDAI]

 

<snip>

 

Hmm, let me know if it works, I didn't like the third bar of the first movement of the Fifth Symphony from Beethoven's, and no matter how much I have ranted, no one have taken me seriously, I don't know why! I paid a whole 10 $ for the CD for Christ sake!!. These writers are so stubborn not willing to give up their creativity! Paying 60 bucks for DA:I gives you THE SUPREME RIGHT to twist and turn their ideas to accommodate your whims!

[Dabrikishaw]

OK, this doesn't really involve what the OP is talking about, but I've always wondered why the hell Loghain is the only one that can turned into a Warden at the Landsmeet? I mean, seriously, Sten, Oghren, my freaking Dog, none of them can just drink the evil Blight smoothie, really? 

Once I actually thought about this, I came to the same conclusions you did about it's contrivance. 

[ModernAcademic]

Indeed, the trouble with Bioware games is that, by a writer's whim, a major character can die in a game...and then be magically alive in the next installment!

 

Leliana can be effectively killed in DA:O, but return in the form of a lyrium ghost in DA:I. This is not only a lazy way to tie a loose end, but also another demonstration of the limitation caused by allowing multiple choices for the player for the sake of future continuations. There's just no way to make a trilogy that allows for nearly unlimited player choices and that can maintain a coherent story development over the course of three games. You're bound to upset fans all over the place.

[d1ta]

OK, this doesn't really involve what the OP is talking about, but I've always wondered why the hell Loghain is the only one that can turned into a Warden at the Landsmeet? I mean, seriously, Sten, Oghren, my freaking Dog, none of them can just drink the evil Blight smoothie, really?

... hunh, never thought about it before, but your posts certainly makes me think why the hell didn't my warden just conscript en masse and not just having a grand total of 3 wardens (Riordan still breathing during landsmeet) facing a friggin' Blight.
With Darkspawns and Archdemon knocking at the front door, you'd think people would just do about anything to stop it. Using right of conscription or no..

.. sigh. And thank you. This however, has stacked DAI more favourably for me (I am allowed to love 1 game over the other right? )

[9TailsFox]

 

For Abelas you just have the option of doing the damn rituals,Morrigan never killed him at the temple in this scenario

Yes i agree that the situation is forced,i mean or the Inquisitor will be bound (that is not a problem for a Dalish worshipper of Mythal) or either you're forced to give those powers to her.

Again this is a forced situation generated by the writers exactly like the Dark ritual,since apparently Morrigan is too untrustworthy to gain things without those kind of blackmails from the writers part.

Give me this power or you or your lover/firend will die,give me this power or you will be a slave...probably the writers just realized that under normal circumstances no one would give any kind of power to Morrigan,their blackmails are the only way to tempt some players.

 

This what I like in games with "choices" for me dark ritual wasn't even option/choices I romanced Morrigan. I was so you couldn't do it all other times, ok lets do it.

And about drink magical water I didn't want drink at all Morrigan or Inquisitor. She have a son and Inquisitor already have magical hand one superpower per character. But if someone must fine Morrigan want it can have it.

[Aren]

This what I like in games with "choices" for me dark ritual wasn't even option/choices I romanced Morrigan. I was so you couldn't do it all other times, ok lets do it.

And about drink magical water I didn't want drink at all Morrigan or Inquisitor. She have a son and Inquisitor already have magical hand one superpower per character. But if someone must fine Morrigan want it can have it.

Also there are many other people for the well of sorrow,for example someone like Blackwall,he is perfect, who cares if he will become a slave,he will die soon enough regardless....

[Secret Rare]

 

For Abelas you just have the option of doing the damn rituals,Morrigan never killed him at the temple in this scenario

 

Doing the rituals would be a sign of respect towards the elven gods,my Inquisitor do not respect them,but surely she didn't want Abelas dead

 

Indeed, the trouble with Bioware games is that, by a writer's whim, a major character can die in a game...and then be magically alive in the next installment!

 

Leliana can be effectively killed in DA:O, but return in the form of a lyrium ghost in DA:I. This is not only a lazy way to tie a loose end, 

Leliana is just one of the many ambiguous situations, one of the more extremes,but with DA you never know isf someone is dead or not,there always this insidious spells of plot armor often base on the popular guess of a specific character.

 

Hmm, let me know if it works, I didn't like the third bar of the first movement of the Fifth Symphony from Beethoven's, and no matter how much I have ranted, no one have taken me seriously, I don't know why! I paid a whole 10 $ for the CD for Christ sake!!. These writers are so stubborn not willing to give up their creativity! Paying 60 bucks for DA:I gives you THE SUPREME RIGHT to twist and turn their ideas to accommodate your whims!

And here i supposed that the word Request was clear enough

[9TailsFox]

Also there are many other people for the well of sorrow,for example someone like Blackwall,he is perfect, who cares if he will become a slave,he will die soon enough regardless....

I don't know give such power, well Blackwall is "good" now so it may be fine, but imagine if Vivienne get such power it's not just negative effect, more important is knowledge. And as far as we know only side effect is Mythal can control you, witch is not exactly a problem especially for Morrigan, because Mythal/Flemeth care for Morrigan.

 

Well of sorrows forcing is not big problem, much worse is fade Nightmare and sacrifice. Really can't we just beat it? Or if sacrifice is must how about Solas have nice long chat with demon and make him nice. or sacrifice Blakwall he probably go willingly or volunteer Vivienna as sacrifice. Varric would probably wouldn't even let Hawke sacrifice if Hawke is friend.

[TheKomandorShepard]

I agree with op request though disagree as reasons for why.

 

Why i agree, because i think Da should end with returning characters.Why i disagree with reasons because they are personal to the previous protagonists , so killing them because of it doesn't make sense for new protagonist that just meet Morrigan for first time.We would need reasons for new protagonist to kill character, in Solas case shouldn't be problem as guy tries to destroy entire world so killing him is pretty much most reasonable option, when it comes to Morrigan she would have to oppose us , betray us or do something that brought harm to the protagonist unless they will fix roleplaying in next game and allow us to kill because character may be threat to us.

 

Honestly, i don't see Morrigan dying but chances Solas will die are pretty high probably with help of deus ex machina.

[Aren]

I don't know give such power, well Blackwall is "good" now so it may be fine, but imagine if Vivienne get such power it's not just negative effect, more important is knowledge. And as far as we know only side effect is Mythal can control you, witch is not exactly a problem especially for Morrigan, because Mythal/Flemeth care for Morrigan.

 

 

I have never understood if Mtyahl cared for Flemeth or just used her for revenge.

Flemeth instead to use all that powers to live like a member of the magisterium in Tevinter

spent all those years in that hut in the wilds because Mythal probably wanted this,while proably made a visit from time to time to Abelas.

[Madfox11]

It should be noted that there is about a 33% to 50% death rate in the Warden Joining ritual *after* a careful recruitment selection. At the Landsmeet there is no time for such recruitment, meaning that the death rate is very likely to be much much much higher. I also suspect that while the Arch Demon blood is not strictly necessary, there is something in the official ritual that reduces the chance of death or early ghoulhood or otherwise Grey Wardens would be created more often accidentally. People treat poisoning by darkspawn blood as a guaranteed death, meaning survival rate is very low. Supplies might actually be limited for the proper ritual. I really think you are giving humans too much credit in that they would wish such odds with their life at stake and it certainly would not increase the number of Wardens to have a significant impact. Granted, most of this is my personal head canon. Rional never outright states it. It is just something that makes sense to me.

 

As for the OP, I like Morrigan. I don't even blame her for lying about her true motivation. It is not as if the world in general is kind, understanding and forgiving to magic. I like how she changed in between DAO and DI, although I usually performed the Dark Ritual (although I find the term a bit odd, it is only a dark ritual if you belief the old gods are bad) and the child definitely had a good influence. I would like to see her in the next game.

[Aren]

 

 

As for the OP, I like Morrigan. I don't even blame her for lying about her true motivation. It is not as if the world in general is kind, understanding and forgiving to magic. I like how she changed in between DAO and DI, although I usually performed the Dark Ritual (although I find the term a bit odd, it is only a dark ritual if you belief the old gods are bad) and the child definitely had a good influence. I would like to see her in the next game.

It is a dark ritual because it involves the taint which is dark force and blood magic whic is a form of magic born from pain and violence according to the writers,that is why was named DR.

Urhtemiel is the subject of the ritual while the child is the living tool,for what i understood he is one of the old gods imprisoned by the taitans in a prison also discovered by some member of the legion of the dead,so i would say that there is a reason as for why they are underground.

[German Soldier]

 

 

 

Deceive:

to ​persuade someone that something ​false is the ​truth, or to ​keep the ​truth ​hidden from someone for ​your own ​advantage

 

Lie:

a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood.

something intended or serving to convey a false impression; imposture:

 

 

 

 

If the Warden allowed the Dark ritual,basically in the years to come was forced to do those two things device and/or lie to the rest of the order of the grey

(they send questions of course) in order to protect Morrigan or the OGB,now given the fact that i didn't want any kind of troubles like that and mostly didn't want to lie to the entire order included the senior members for her(her safety and secret is pretty much in the HoF hand as well as her mother),i just didn't allowed the ritual.

AS for Morrigan leaving i didn't care much at the time (i didn't even noticed her absence) because i was more interested as a player into playing the final battle and see the ending of the game,but sure it was kind of a dickish move from her part,it just show that she was only obsessed with her buisness that had nothing to do with saving the world.

Truth be told you could have easily predicted this the moment her mother sent her,i mean honestly i believe that Alistair is not smart (albeit he is a very honest man and a great warden for me) but he also understood earlier in the game that it could have been an ulterior motive behind Morrigan joining,he even speak o this with the Warden,that was obvious since the start,i mean a woman with a non generous heart that has nothing to do with the blight and didn't belong to Ferelden society that suddenly want to help you and ask nothing in return? That's suspicious even for the most naive of the naives.

Still as a player i didn't expect that she was ready to abandon a friend(or even the lover) just for a disagreement that didn't involved in any way a personal insult like the one of sparing Loghain for Alistair(man who tried to kill you all),kill Caridin for Shale,threat Zevran poorly like a dog or taint an holy relic which is a piece of history for the entire Thedas and also grant impressive magical healing ability and is only useful for everyone just for that psychotic of Kolgrim (Wynne,Leliana),she just left for that Dragon which was not important for anyone aside her,Flemeth and Auerlian titus....that's lame....

 

 

Solas is another that like Morrigan inserted himself into a group to achieve a personal goal "he did partially failed" and deceived all the way around,unlike Morrigan however he remained until the end and the death of Corypheus,however the prblem is that 2  years later he declared himself to being a world threat.

[kimgoold]

I will admit my elven HoF got Alistair to do the Dark Ritual in all playthru's mainly because she didn't want to loose her lover and because after Landsmeet he said Wardens don't often have kids, this I thought would give him/Ferelden an heir and save his life. I don't trust Morrigan but I did like her DAO until WH when she outright admits she lied; But HoF didn't stab her because OGB (Kieran) was not there to be taken back to his father. DA? in future if the option arises to kill Morrigan I would and Kieran can go back to his father Alistair. (either King or Warden with HoF)

[Derrame]

Solas could die, I agree, but Morrigan no,never, not a chance, she is the most representative character of the series, and like a pillar of the game base, no way

[nightscrawl]

^ When you say "a pillar of the game base," are you referring to the players? If that's the case then it certainly does not apply to me. I really don't give a damn about Morrigan. I can take her or leave her, and I've done several plays where my Warden was good friends with her, so I know she has a softer side.

 

My very first play I didn't romance anyone, made Alistair king, refused the DR, and watched, horrified, as he sacrificed himself regardless of any dialogue options I chose (I played through the final battle three times). In my subsequent plays Morrigan was a tool for my (and boyfriend's) survival.

[Aren]

^ When you say "a pillar of the game base," are you referring to the players? If that's the case then it certainly does not apply to me. I really don't give a damn about Morrigan. I can take her or leave her,

Same to me in my canon i just decided to sent her off at Lothering as i found incredible annoying her continuous passive disapproval on pretty much everything,she wasn't so relevant at all in DAI either since i just used the Mythal's guardian to keep busy the red lyrium dragon,all in all she was pretty irrelevant to the story.

Basically this is the weakness of her character,the player freedom,unlike Solas or Flemeth she isn't indispensable for the story.

yet i still do not understand as for why they gave to her a "preferable route" on the epilogues.

See DAO she is the only one who possess the personal picture epilogue  "they hopefully rectified this in DAA by giving to all the companions this service"

or DAI when she was also the narrator ending,would have been better Varric? That is his job

[nightscrawl]

Same to me in my canon i just decided to sent her off at Lothering...

 
You can do that?? I had no idea. I'm so tempted the next time I play, but with stories like DAO and DAI my characters are usually of the mindset that "I need all the help I can get," so I typically recruit everyone. Only once have I been able to come up with a satisfactory RP reason for not recruiting someone.

[Andromelek]

Solas could die, I agree, but Morrigan no,never, not a chance, she is the most representative character of the series, and like a pillar of the game base, no way

Flemeth has been more representative since Morrigan was skipped on one game, not to mention other media.

Besides, what does it matter if a character is representative? That doesn't save a character from dying, Morrigan is not as iconic as characters like Kratos or Master Chief are for their franchises, and yet, they die.

[Secret Rare]

 

 

A Grey Warden is a state of being, not an affiliation to an organization. Grey Wardens are people who are not Darkspawn but survive despite having the Taint within them. So, yes, you do need to undertake the Joining to be considered a Warden. Or what, is the whole staff of Vigil's Keep Wardens too?

 

I strongly disagree with this,a grey warden is more than a state of being they are a factual organization with strict rules,those who do not belong to the organization but present the same physical attributes of the grey are not grey wardens,Anders himself in DAII isn't a Grey Warden anymore same for exiled AListair ,willingly or not The Warden is an affiliate to the order and it remain regardless of player choice.

 Wolsey and Varel are affiliates too since they know their secrets because members of the order  revealed some of those secrets to them(albeit it is possible that Varel is ignorant about the US).

Morrigan,Zevran,x,y.... and any other companions are not affiliates to the Grey(aside from DAA Oghren) so they shouldn't know those secrets,if they know a Grey warden is justified to want them dead,exactly what Duncan did to mr Jory,who was the lowest member of the order at the time in terms of degree a recruit,not tainted but still part of the order.

People may strongly dislike this aspect of the organization,but is part of them.

this is easily one of the motivation who can be chosen in WH through the dialogues

" to kill you of course" that's not psychotic,that's just a warden who is doing the classical business of the order.

 

And the empress who is protecting her? Just no,Celene already has plenty of enemies to take care and she didn't hired Morrigan to be her protector ,neither is her duty.

if Morrigan live or die i don't think that she would particularly care she is just one of the many persons who work for her.

So i would say that without her boyfriend around no matter at how powerful or clever she is

(albeit without the dragon from she didn't seem to have become particularly strong in this 10 years  maybe is the opposite she is less trained than DAO in which she was in constant battle,but that's not even important a dragon isn't invulnerable) 

with an enemy as the HoF around,chance to survive would be slim since no friends and allies mean to be an easy target.

 but of course the Warden has to disappear forever...

last thing for what i saw she didn't saved the world she just killed the elf to interrupt the spell for a lingering desire of power,when this was basically unnecessary since in order to interrupt the spell of a mage you don't need to kill him a kick in the butt is enough.

 

 

Also apprently you didn't read(also @ash wind) the point tha i made about the 1st grimoire,Morrigan promised to the warden help for that grimoire and later deserted,that is an hell of a betrayal,she gave her words  to be more useful against the blight

[German Soldier]

 

 

 

 

Also apprently you didn't read(also @ash wind) the point tha i made about the 1st grimoire,Morrigan promised to the warden help for that grimoire and later deserted,that is an hell of a betrayal,she gave her words  to be more useful against the blight

 

Also apparently you did used an argument that i brought it up in another topic (i don't even remeber anymore which one ) without give credit for the 2nd time......

Anyway that's a point that i made when i discovered that convo of her for the first book which pretty much to me disqualify every senseless argument about morrigan not deserting the warden at Redcliffe,she gave  her word but it was another lie....

i'm also still confused about this,because others player seem usually to totally miss that conversation or skipped probably because is optional.

i like to be challenged and proved wrong,but until now no one bothered to explain me as for why that desertion is not a betrayal with another argument that wasn't the classical "Morrigan is a volunteer" because she is,but she also gave her words to the Warden for that favor,which ultimately doesn't save her from being accused of an act of disloyalty .

[Akiza]

 

 

 

You have, of course, the right to feel however, you please about Morrigan.

I am merely putting things into perspective.

 

She didn't do anything in WH beyond stealing a book and giving her opinion again.

That's grounds for killing people?

 

Do you mean this?

 

"she would have find another sources of informations to kill Corypheus or at least his dragon, who was already losing badly at that point."

 

That is not a compelling argument. That is just saying we should destroy our only resource and hope we can wing it afterwards. Effectivelly gambling with the fate of the world.

You're putting things into your perspective which ultimately is relevant for some players who agree but not to those who disagree and who did see what Morrigan did as a betrayal.

I do not care if she did not personally attacked my character  (pretty much Solas also do not attack directly the Inquisitor or Isabela on Hawke ) but her lies and deceive and also all those insipid suggestions of murdering those who were not able to defend themselves for nothing than her ego struck at my nerves.

Also Morrigan did lied to the warden several times on the same subject and stealing from the dalish is a dangerous thing to do,they care for they possessions,they even kill for this kind of things and my waden was a dalish of the  Sabrae clan..

 

 

I'm not a fan of stories where there is a single, top-secret method that the protagonists must employ in order to succeed, especially when this top-secret method gets revealed completely out of nowhere, without foreshadowing beforehand or even a proper explanation at the time of the revelation.  I mean, are they trying to say that the entirety of the game hinges on this magical pool of water?  What if they didn't meet Morrigan?  Oh, right... she forced her way onto the team.  Well, what if they arrived in the the Arbor Wilds a day late and Corypheus got to the pool first?  He didn't seemed that interested in it until the player decided it was time to go to that area, but what if he got sick of waiting for the Inquisitor to finish the last of their fetch quests and put his plans in motion...?  Oh wait, the timing is perfect because everything in the world revolves around the player.  It's ridiculous... situations that can only be resolved in a single, very specific way through the use of a previously unheard of McGuffin are the worst kind of sloppy writing...

Ultimately she just one of the reason of the fragility of the main plot.

Focus the whole conflict from Corypheus and the inquisitor to this  magical pool of water and elven gods with Morrigan involved was not beneficial for the game.