305 réponses à ce sujet

[Tidus]

I guest my question is why all the needless killing of your group members while some  allows that asp of a man Loghain to live?

 

I never found a reason to kill Leliana through my 13 play throughs of DA:O. Morrigan has many faults but, with proper leveling up she can become a strong mage and that's more important then running her through with a blade. Not to mention she gives you a way out of being killed when you slay the AD. Truth be told I doubt if anybody would choose to die over doing the DR.

 

The only killings that needs to be done is found in Denerim that is Loghain and Howe.. They are the enemy that  wanted you dead.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Who said needless, killing Leliana is necessary if you decide to destroy ashes because she tries to kill you and even trying to calm her down doesn't work.Killing Morrigan could have been seen as good option if you don't trust her and see her as threat.

 

In fact killing Loghain is needless because you don't recive anything in return for killing Loghain, and it only serves as retribution.

[Andromelek]

Who said needless, killing Leliana is necessary if you decide to destroy ashes because she tries to kill you and even trying to calm her down doesn't work.Killing Morrigan could have been seen as good option if you don't trust her and see her as threat.
 
In fact killing Loghain is needless because you don't recive anything in return for killing Loghain, and it only serves as retribution.

First: The only characters you necessarily have to kill on a crisis are Zevran (if approval is not enough) and Wynne (if is on the party while defiling the Ashes), Leliana can be threatened and forced to stand down on that point. Second: Stabbing Morrigan is an option, but then she was provided of a plot armor that yet lingers.

[TheKomandorShepard]

First: The only characters you necessarily have to kill on a crisis are Zevran (if approval is not enough) and Wynne (if is on the party while defiling the Ashes), Leliana can be threatened and forced to stand down on that point. Second: Stabbing Morrigan is an option, but then she was provided of a plot armor that yet lingers.

What does that have anything with i said? In first place i wasn't arguing about necessity of killing companions only about killing Leliana (and Loghain) being needless under certain circumstances, also Leliana can be only talked down by using intimidation if hardened. Now where i said that stabbing Morrigan isn't an option, despite fact it isn't option until WH. 

[Andromelek]

What does that have anything with i said? In first place i wasn't arguing about necessity of killing companions only about killing Leliana (and Loghain) being needless under certain circumstances, also Leliana can be only talked down by using intimidation if hardened. Now where i said that stabbing Morrigan isn't an option, despite fact it isn't option until WH.

You said killing Leliana was necessary if the ashes were destroyed and that trying to calm her down doesn't work, but there is the option to intimidate her (you have to harden her, yes but it still being an option)

You said killing Morrigan was not an option. It's not in the main game, but if you took the gut-knife choice on WH, you left her presumably dead, there was no clues of otherwise until the first trailer of DAI.

[TheKomandorShepard]

You said killing Leliana was necessary if the ashes were destroyed and that trying to calm her down doesn't work, but there is the option to intimidate her (you have to harden her, yes but it still being an option)

You said killing Morrigan was not an option. It's not in the main game, but if you took the gut-knife choice on WH, you left her presumably dead, there was no clues of otherwise until the first trailer of DAI.

 

It isn't possible once again to talk her down under certain circumstances, and said circumstances also involve Leliana not being hardened what is factor that is made before not after she decides to kill you if you defile ashes, thus killing leliana is necessity as you have no other option under given circumstances.

 

I have never said that in first place that you couldn't kill her (at least not in this thread), well despite if we are being specific you can't because you can't kill her only injure her in WH.Also hardly, it was rather obvious for players she is alive (unlike Leliana) considering we never saw her death only inflicting not very lethal injury that you could recover from and said person was mage.

[Aren]

It isn't possible once again to talk her down under certain circumstances, and said circumstances also involve Leliana not being hardened what is factor that is made before not after she decides to kill you if you defile ashes, thus killing leliana is necessity as you have no other option under given circumstances.

I have never said that in first place that you couldn't kill her (at least not in this thread), well despite if we are being specific you can't because you can't kill her only injure her in WH.Also hardly, it was rather obvious for players she is alive (unlike Leliana) considering we never saw her death only inflicting not very lethal injury that you could recover from and said person was mage.

Well in regard of Leliana i personally always found the ashes as to be more useful than the blood offered by someone that i couldn't even trust(from a more realistic point of view you know that Kolgrim has reason to want revenge against you, so he could have just prepared a trap and poisoned the blood to kill the Warden) plus the spec is available without
kolgrim as well and can be obtained later in DAA or simply by reload a save.
So there is no reason gameplay wise to want to kill Leliana.
Morrigan cannot be attacked until Wh and there the attack is very much lethal and is similar to the attack that Duncan did to Jory, but unlike Morrigan he was with an armor but yet he died.
Morrigan there was granted of plot armor since as others already said is the Warden who push her into the mirror and later simply decide to not cross the mirror (which was intact) to see where she was.
In DAI also i still did not have understood as for why the dragon of Mythal is killed by the red lyrium dragon( after the terrible fall from the sky) but Morrigan was fine (if she was the one defeated by the red lyrium dragon)

[TheKomandorShepard]

Well in regard of Leliana i personally always found the ashes as to be more useful than the blood offered by someone that i couldn't even trust plus the spec is available without
kolgrim as well and can be obtained later in DAA or simply by reload a save.
So there is no reason gameplay wise to want to kill Leliana.
Morrigan cannot be attacked until Wh and there the attack is very much lethal and is similar to the attack that Duncan did to Jory, but unlike Morrigan he was with an armor but yet he died.
Morrigan there was granted of plot armor since as others already said is the Warden who push her into the mirror and later simply decide to not cross the mirror (which was intact) to see where she was.
In DAI also i still did not have understood as for why the dragon of Mythal is killed by the red lyrium dragon( after the terrible fall from the sky) but Morrigan was fine (if she was the one defeated by the red lyrium dragon)

From gameplay perspective no but gameplay perspective is irrelevant from story perspective there is plenty reasons why player can opt for defining ashes.Also ashes are pretty much useless when it comes to fighting blight their only use was in healing Eamon while power that is offered for doing that is valuable asset to your mission. 

 

It isn't lethal and only similarity to way Duncan killed Jory is that it was stab in the stomach, in first place Duncan stabbed Jory with long dagger when Warden stabbed morrigan with just knife then there is fact Jory had no means to obtain help while Morrigan doesn't die on screen and is mage.It was clear she didn't die simply as i said her "death" was way too ambiguous to be pulled of as  actual death ,pretty much Morrigan fate was as obvious as Corypheus was in Legacy. It was plot armor of course as the warden could simply strike in vital organ that she wouldn't be able recover, but as i said obvious one that clearly showed that devs didn't want Morrigan to die then. 

[thats1evildude]

Morrigan cannot be attacked until Wh and there the attack is very much lethal and is similar to the attack that Duncan did to Jory, but unlike Morrigan he was with an armor but yet he died.

 

 

Morrigan, a high-level mage, had resources that a low-level warrior like Jory did not.

[Tidus]

Loghain is a criminal and no longer the great Hero of River Dane.. He is a vile creature that deserves to die and in my games he will get his just reward. In my youth I was taught to kill my enemy before he kills me and Loghain did his best to kill me by sending Crow Assassins after me twice. Not to mention the bounty on my head. He is my enemy and therefore just as killable as any Darkspawn. That's in the code of the Greys.. 

 

Why would anybody want to destroy the ashes? Just be cause its possible and there's the happy thought of killing a team member that has stood by your side throughout the game? 

[Andromelek]

Morrigan, a high-level mage, had resources that a low-level warrior like Jory did not.

She said she was no healer, when it comes to knowledge and power she is many steps behind the rest of her family.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Loghain is a criminal and no longer the great Hero of River Dane.. He is a vile creature that deserves to die and in my games he will get his just reward. In my youth I was taught to kill my enemy before he kills me and Loghain did his best to kill me by sending Crow Assassins after me twice. Not to mention the bounty on my head. He is my enemy and therefore just as killable as any Darkspawn. That's in the code of the Greys.. 

 

Why would anybody want to destroy the ashes? Just be cause its possible and there's the happy thought of killing a team member that has stood by your side throughout the game? 

 

That is just desire for retribution rather than being pragmatic, Loghain is extra asset in fighting blight and isn't threat to you anymore. Actually, Grey wardens do allow Loghain to join, so not rly their code unless you share Alistair naive view of grey wardens.

 

Because you are offered power that would help in your mission for doing that, also it would allow you avoid very difficult fight with cultists and their dragon that had nothing to do with your primary mission. 

[Aren]

From gameplay perspective no but gameplay perspective is irrelevant from story perspective there is plenty reasons why player can opt for defining ashes.Also ashes are pretty much useless when it comes to fighting blight their only use was in healing Eamon while power that is offered for doing that is valuable asset to your mission.

It isn't lethal and only similarity to way Duncan killed Jory is that it was stab in the stomach, in first place Duncan stabbed Jory with long dagger when Warden stabbed morrigan with just knife then there is fact Jory had no means to obtain help while Morrigan doesn't die on screen and is mage.It was clear she didn't die simply as i said her "death" was way too ambiguous to be pulled of as actual death ,pretty much Morrigan fate was as obvious as Corypheus was in Legacy. It was plot armor of course as the warden could simply strike in vital organ that she wouldn't be able recover, but as i said obvious one that clearly showed that devs didn't want Morrigan to die then.

True Duncan attack was with a dagger not a knife

[Aren]

That is just desire for retribution rather than being pragmatic, Loghain is extra asset in fighting blight and isn't threat to you anymore. Actually, Grey wardens do allow Loghain to join, so not rly their code unless you share Alistair naive view of grey wardens.

Because you are offered power that would help in your mission for doing that, also it would allow you avoid very difficult fight with cultists and their dragon that had nothing to do with your primary mission.

Yes but you cannot trust Kolgrim.
How do you know that he will keep his promise?
How do you know that he wil not poison you for revenge?
Plus according to the lore in order to become a Reaver you need to drink a treated wyvern's blood or ingest High dragon blood.
As far as i'm concerned Kolgrim gave to the warden the blood of the high dragon, so instead to waste it to taint the ashes it can be used to become a reaver you need only to ingest that blood.
The ashes on the other hand possess far more valuable powers.., they can heal and how knows maybe even remove the taint from a warden...

[TheKomandorShepard]

Yes but you cannot trust Kolgrim.
How do you know that he will keep his promise?
How do you know that he wil not poison you for revenge?
Plus according to the lore in order to become a Reaver you need to drink a treated wyvern's blood or ingest High dragon blood.
As far as i'm concerned Kolgrim gave to the warden the blood of the high dragon, so instead to waste it to taint the ashes it can be used to become a reaver you need only to ingest that blood.
The ashes on the other hand possess far more valuable powers.., they can heal and how knows maybe even remove the taint from a warden...

 

You can't, as you can't trust anyone you meet you simply need to take risk in order to obtain reward in the end it is still better chance than fight with cultists and high dragon, and if you don't want risk you can simply say you don't want to drink it and go on your way without risk.It doesn't seem that The Warden had knowledge how obtain that power as there is no other way to do so, then we would have to assume that blood given by Kolgrim would be enough.

 

The ashes have no value to HoF mission outside healing Eamon so they are not much of use for him/her as HoF still had ashes but they weren't useful to anything else ,assuming that the warden isn't skeptical about whole thing in first place.

[Tidus]

Shepard,Maybe in your games you do that and that is all well and good but,lessons of my youth taught me you never trust the enemy.Loghain hates the Greys so, how can anybody trust him after what he did a Ostagar?  He deserted his own King,the Greys  and country men..He then locked up the Queen, sold Elves into slavery ,committed crimes against humanity and feared the Orlesians more then the blight which resulted the horde running unchecked and  almost doom Denerim in the process .

 

Loghain needs killing not set free.

 

Wardens are ruthless to their enemy and that includes Loghain since he is a enemy..

[Andromelek]

Shepard,Maybe in your games you do that and that is all well and good but,lessons of my youth taught me you never trust the enemy.Loghain hates the Greys so, how can anybody trust him after what he did a Ostagar? He deserted his own King,the Greys and country men..He then locked up the Queen, sold Elves into slavery ,committed crimes against humanity and feared the Orlesians more then the blight which resulted the horde running unchecked and almost doom Denerim in the process .

Loghain needs killing not set free.

Wardens are ruthless to their enemy and that includes Loghain since he is a enemy..

Wardens really don't care if you are a monster who kills babies as long as you serve them to fight the Blight, that's their only goal, every other thing is something that the deluded minds made up, they even spend time saying that they accept from bandits to kings (Duncan himself was a thief and happened to rob Genevieve, but she rather opted for conscript him)

Now, on Loghain's matter, at least on Ostagar can be justified as a logical decision, he also was beaten down on duel before being able to coscript him and such option was an alternative to direct execution (proposed by a senior Warden), besides, why would you complain? If you spare him life provides some poetic justice on him, from Warden/Orlesian hater that betrayed his people he ended as an Orlesian Warden that was betrayed by his own people, I think I couldn't ask something better than that.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Shepard,Maybe in your games you do that and that is all well and good but,lessons of my youth taught me you never trust the enemy.Loghain hates the Greys so, how can anybody trust him after what he did a Ostagar?  He deserted his own King,the Greys  and country men..He then locked up the Queen, sold Elves into slavery ,committed crimes against humanity and feared the Orlesians more then the blight which resulted the horde running unchecked and  almost doom Denerim in the process .

 

Loghain needs killing not set free.

 

Wardens are ruthless to their enemy and that includes Loghain since he is a enemy..

 

To my knowledge Loghain doesn't hate grey wardens , only used them as scapegoats to get away with leaving king to die.Either way Loghain did all that stuff to protect Ferelden same thing you were doing deliberately or not , moment you can decide his fate you defeated him and because of that he was no longer threat to you so it doesn't rly hold ground as you succeeding was in his best interest.

 

Wardens are said to recruit anyone who can help fight darkspawn and blight regardless of person crimes, in fact suggestion to recruit Loghain was made by senior warden on that basis.   

 

 

[Tidus]

Yes, the same senior warden that was tortured  by the same person he wishes to  save. A fool at best. I'll want some pay back instead.

 

I can't justify letting  Loghain live for any reason. Its not vengeance but justice for his crimes. If Duncan lived I kinda doubt if he would be all lovey dovey all is forgiven with Loghain.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Yes, the same senior warden that was tortured  by the same person he wishes to  save. A fool at best. I'll want some pay back instead.

 

I can't justify letting  Loghain live for any reason. Its not vengeance but justice for his crimes. If Duncan lived I kinda doubt if he would be all lovey dovey all is forgiven with Loghain.

 

That he picks option basing on benefit instead on personal grudge doesn't make him a fool , in fact it was pretty smart thing to do as instead emotions he used his head.

 

If Duncan was alive and he could recruit Loghain he would do it as in first place Duncan didn't care about justice and doing nice things for other people only about fighting darkspawn.  

[Melbella]

In addition to the weakening, I also got the impression that they manage to ground the dragon, making it possible for you to actually kill it. It is the same reason why Riordan hurts it, but does not kill the Archdemon: to ground the critter without hogging the glory from the protagonist. Flying opponents with ranged weapons are incredible hard to kill and they can just fly away if seriously wounded. I am always surprised why the dragons in DAI stick around after being seriously wounded

This is why we need griffons to return....how much more fun would dragon fights be if we could fly after them?

[Tidus]

I don't think Duncan would.. He would see killing Loghain would be the best option since Loghain is mentally unstable. I saw that in my first game. He knew exactly what he was doing..  In case you haven't notice it was a coup after all he did lock the Queen of Ferelden up.

 

Pretty nice.. Kill the king and his supporters by withdrawing your troops, lock away the Queen and declare yourself regent and demand everybody to obey your command without question...  He would made a excellent Orlesian Lord since he knew how to play the game.

[TheKomandorShepard]

I don't think Duncan would.. He would see killing Loghain would be the best option since Loghain is mentally unstable. I saw that in my first game. He knew exactly what he was doing..  In case you haven't notice it was a coup after all he did lock the Queen of Ferelden up.

 

Pretty nice.. Kill the king and his supporters by withdrawing your troops, lock away the Queen and declare yourself regent and demand everybody to obey your command without question...  He would made a excellent Orlesian Lord since he knew how to play the game.

Of course Duncan would as Loghain wasn't and isn't mentally unstable and it is seems your bias toward Loghain starts to show up.

 

In fact it is far from Olresian game as orlesian games is about subtlety, playing nice and manipulation while Loghain actions were pretty straightforward and violent, If something Loghain was more like Gaspard.

[Aren]

You can't, as you can't trust anyone you meet you simply need to take risk in order to obtain reward in the end it is still better chance than fight with cultists and high dragon, and if you don't want risk you can simply say you don't want to drink it and go on your way without risk.It doesn't seem that The Warden had knowledge how obtain that power as there is no other way to do so, then we would have to assume that blood given by Kolgrim would be enough.

The ashes have no value to HoF mission outside healing Eamon so they are not much of use for him/her as HoF still had ashes but they weren't useful to anything else ,assuming that the warden isn't skeptical about whole thing in first place.

Kolgrim may have his personal reasons to want a revenge since before to met him the player have alredy killed many of his "family" so at that point you have more reason to believe that he just want to use you.
You also cant be sure that the ashes will not lose completly their power if tainted included the small part that the protagonist take, this is basically only Kolgrim claim.
So you risk to ruin this mission solely based on his word.
The same ability reaver can be unlocked via tomes, is not difficult to become a reaver ot only require the dragon blood.
Gameplay wise the ashes coul have been more useful but the game do not allow the player to use them outside of Eamon.
Those are magical ashes that remove according to the legend any disease and curse....i would have love an option to use them to remove the taint.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Kolgrim may have his personal reasons to want a revenge since before to met him the player have alredy killed many of his "family" so at that point you have more reason to believe that he just want to use you.
You also cant be sure that the ashes will not lose completly their power if tainted included the small part that the protagonist take, this is basically only Kolgrim claim.
So you risk to ruin this mission solely based on his word.
The same ability reaver can be unlocked via tomes, is not difficult to become a reaver ot only require the dragon blood.
Gameplay wise the ashes coul have been more useful but the game do not allow the player to use them outside of Eamon.
Those are magical ashes that remove according to the legend any disease and curse....i would have love an option to use them to remove the taint.

 

Considering once again that he allows you to leave instead attacking you if you don't want drink blood should be good indication that he wasn't interested in revenge.Besides as i said even if you don't want to risk you don't have to drink you may just do it to avoid extremely risky fight that wasn't required to finish your mission.

 

There is no reason to belive that ashes you took would lose power as they weren't defiled as there is no reason to belive that wine in your glass would become diluted if you add watter to the bottle.   

 

You can't unlock reaver any other way than destroying ashes in dao , only other alternative is available in awakening that happens after main game.  

 

Useful to what? Pretty sure there is no situation they could have been useful after healing Eamon, it is pretty clear they can't heal taint otherwise it would have been possibility.