In my first game I messed up the Landsmeet.. Loghain was all for killing me, Alistair and Erl Eamond-his words 'Take them outside for execution".. No mercy for us why show mercy to that demented asp of a man?
Loghain dies for his many crimes as he should in my games.. One could say I'm being merciful by putting him out of his deranged misery.
You argue for killing Loghain because of retribution not pragmatic reasons, as i said killing Loghain grants you nothing outside retribution, while sparing him means extra asset in the form of very talented and well-renowned general.
That point is metagame you know that only after the completition of the quest.Considering once again that he allows you to leave instead attacking you if you don't want drink blood should be good indication that he wasn't interested in revenge.Besides as i said even if you don't want to risk you don't have to drink you may just do it to avoid extremely risky fight that wasn't required to finish your mission.
There is no reason to belive that ashes you took would lose power as they weren't defiled as there is no reason to belive that wine in your glass would become diluted if you add watter to the bottle.
You can't unlock reaver any other way than destroying ashes in dao , only other alternative is available in awakening that happens after main game.
Useful to what? Pretty sure there is no situation they could have been useful after healing Eamon, it is pretty clear they can't heal taint otherwise it would have been possibility.
That point is metagame you know that only after the completition of the quest.
Magic doesn't work like chemistry, the ashes are a magical artifact, taint the source and you can't be sure about the result.
Plus in order to be a reaver you need only to ingest the dragon blood and nothing more, those preparation that Kolgrim did were necessary because he used Wyvern blood, that need preparation in order to remove the poison.
The Ashes possess far more valuable powers , healing powers that can be used to heal, the fact that for gameplay reasons The player is forced to pick only a small part for someone else(you are not allowed to take more) does not disqualify the fact that they are far more valuable than simple lizard blood, both from a magical(this is rare form of magic), practical( to heal from terrible disease anyone and nobody asked to mr G if they are capable to cure the taint) and hystorical point of view. Trade them for Wyvern blood is a stupid move, there are many dragons and Wyverns out there but thete are only 1 urn of sacred ashes in the world.
Not rly metagame as you can refuse and see that on your own eyes that Kolghrim didn't show intention of revenge and then take ritual.Pretty much worst case scenario is that you still have to fight Kolgrim what would be in case anyway if you refused.
Except it does because Ashes you took are still working, and there is nothing that would suggest otherwise except superstition in fact stance ashes would work is supported even by Kolgrim.
Once again warden doesn't seem to know how to become Reaver because there is no other possibility than going with Kolgrim so it isn't open knowledge.
The Ashes once again serves no other purpose than healing Eamon and yes HoF still have ashes after healing Eamon , there is no aditional use of them than saving Eamon from poison thus yes they are useless outside exceptional situations like Eamon.So once again Ashes may have historical/religious value and may be use in exceptional situations but they have 0 practical value to HoF primary mission unlike raw power that gave the warden extra advantage in combat.
Metagaming twiceNot rly metagame as you can refuse and see that on your own eyes that Kolghrim didn't show intention of revenge and then take ritual.Pretty much worst case scenario is that you still have to fight Kolgrim what would be in case anyway if you refused.
Except it does because Ashes you took are still working, and there is nothing that would suggest otherwise except superstition in fact stance ashes would work is supported even by Kolgrim.
Once again warden doesn't seem to know how to become Reaver because there is no other possibility than going with Kolgrim so it isn't open knowledge.
The Ashes once again serves no other purpose than healing Eamon and yes HoF still have ashes after healing Eamon , there is no aditional use of them than saving Eamon from poison thus yes they are useless outside exceptional situations like Eamon.So once again Ashes may have historical/religious value and may be use in exceptional situations but they have 0 practical value to HoF primary mission unlike raw power that gave the warden extra iadvantage in combat.
Metagaming twice
I said you cannot know if Kolgrim will not attack you after that you did the dirty work for him.
You have only his words about the ashes being functional after being tainted.
The ashes can heal every disease this is way Tegan ask to found them they are kinda like an universal medicine and far more valuable than common dragon blood and no once you use them for Eamon ,they are removed from the inventory the game do not allow the warden to use them for personal gain, but they are an artifact who can heal disease and injuries ,so this magic is far more valuable and with great potential than simple lizard blood that can be found everywhere and yes for the lore of DA drink dragon blood is enough to become a reaver.
An universal heal is far more valuable than common dragon blood, Kolgrim is offering common wyvern blood for the dissacration of an unique artifact whom magic is unique and can heal better than healers.
It isn't metagaming and yes you can't know Kolgrim won't attack you after you destroyed ashes but once again this is worst case scenario that you would have to face anyway if didn't do that.
Yes, i have his word and logic, what is more than illogical superstition that isn't supported by anything and turns out to not be truth.
The ashes may cure even cancer it doesn't matter because once again they have no practical use in your primary mission and in fact they once again don't have any use, unlike additional advantage in combat.Warden still had ashes they can be shown later to Genitivi in Denerim, then there is fact outside old legend nothing suggests that ashes in fact have such application.And once again i have to repeat myself for fourth time The warden doesn't have knowledge nor there was any other source to obtain reaver ability in dao thus that made Kolgrim only source that through the warden could obtain reaver abilities that unlike ashes would provide additional power to the warden and give him and extra edge in fight.Considering that healer was involved in healing Eamon ashes as well could fulfill fuction of lyrium.
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To OP i dunno about your city elf warden,for certain if my warden king would want Morrigan dead she can have her at any time,resource to hunt a single apostate is not what he is lacking for,what it is a Morrigan after all the monsters that i defeated?
But why i should care about a slave of Mythal?
She does not possess the free will anymore
You can'show the ashes yo henitivi in denerim you can do that only in the temple.
For the fifth time in order to become a reaver you need only to take the blood of one of yhose dragon that were killed and drink it, instead to ise low Wyvern blood.
I think that is pretty naive to destroy an urn full of ancient powerful ashes and lose both Wynne and Leliana (high risk to lose her) for a wyvern blood and those who didn't do that now have both the urn and the reaver spec.
You can , i did that just a moment ago.
And for a fifth time The warden doesn't know how to become reaver and Kolgrim is his only mean to obtain reaver abilities ,how one can't understand so simple statement especially repeated 4 times?
Destroy urn full of ashes that have not proven to have any special properties by that point in return for magic power and avoiding very difficult and unnecessary fight? You would have to assume that The warden has them in your team during doing that and even if you have them you could hope to convince them what for 1 of them may work if you made proper choices.The only way to obtain reaver specialization in dao is cheating or save scumming needless to say it matters only gameplay wise not story wise.
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At the end of the day anyone is entitled to a personal opinion on the approach of the problem, still i believe that is useless to lose 2 party members and destroy the urn for something that can be obtained the same.You can , i did that just a moment ago.
And for a fifth time The warden doesn't know how to become reaver and Kolgrim is his only mean to obtain reaver abilities ,how one can't understand so simple statement especially repeated 4 times?
Destroy urn full of ashes that have not proven to have any special properties by that point in return for magic power and avoiding very difficult and unnecessary fight? You would have to assume that The warden has them in your team during doing that and even if you have them you could hope to convince them what for 1 of them may work if you made proper choices.The only way to obtain reaver specialization in dao is cheating or save scumming needless to say it matters only gameplay wise not story wise.
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At the end of the day anyone is entitled to a personal opinion on the approach of the problem, still i believe that is useless to lose 2 party members and destroy the urn for something that can be obtained the same.
For the 20th time
Lore wise become a reaver is a silly thing the warden especially if from an educated background
(mage or human noble)should know that ,gameplay wise you are forced to rely on Kolgrim ,while i already said that in order to be a reaver simple dragon blood work better than Wyvern blood and it does not need prepararion you only need to take blood and drink nothing more .
You don't need to be a nobel prize scientist to read some book about dragons (and the human noble background gave hint that the wardenof that origin often read books about dragons) discover that.
And the urn is far and it still remain for me far more valuable than common wyvern blood, those who opted differently evidently lost wynne, possibly leliana for nothing a spec that is always or unlocked (as it should have been from the start since it is not something that come from a teaching) or unlocked via tomes in DAA.
Ah did i mention that those morons who destroyed the urn didn't get the epilogue in which is stated that pelgrim all over the world come into ferelden to see it?
This is turism buisness for the nation after the blight, i doubt that a dirty wyvern blood is useful in the same way for the nation.
I can't be obtained other way as i said the only way to get it is do what Kolgrim wanted.No, reaver isn't silly thing what is supported by fact we met very few of them in series and they don't grow on trees as you seem to think, in first place there is knowledge and components required to prepare blood in order to drink it and become a reaver.
Nobel prize scientist no, have access to forbidden and rare knowledge yes , after all there is a reason why you need trainer to become a reaver in Inquisition (not only in dai in fact) not just dragon blood.
As i said you can't obtain power of the reaver if you didn't defile ashes, what you are talking about is just unlocking reaver gameplay wise by save scumming not story wise.Aside from fact that epilouges are just rumors, it is metagaming as you use epilogues as an argument.
Of course Duncan would as Loghain wasn't and isn't mentally unstable and it is seems your bias toward Loghain starts to show up.
In fact it is far from Olresian game as orlesian games is about subtlety, playing nice and manipulation while Loghain actions were pretty straightforward and violent, If something Loghain was more like Gaspard.
Loghain was not definitely mentally unstable. He's, however, paranoid about Orlais and very skeptic about the Wardens due to their secrets.
Back to the main topic, I think Solas may die in the next game. As for Morrigan, the question would be if whether she would appear in the next game or not.
That is true only for wyvern blood because is poison and need preaparation, but in no way Kolgrim train the warden in DAO.
the argument can be made for the tome of DAA not for Kolgrim.
Reaver are rare because dragons whom blood is necessary (unless you want to use wyverns blood that need preparation because of the poison)were rare before this age.
A trainer can teach you how to use this power better
after the process, but they are not necessary to become a reaver the ingredient dragon blood was rare before of this age and Kolgrim dont use it because dragons are holy yo him and his tribe, they are the children of andraste for him.
The slides of DAO sometime are rumors sometime are the truth, in this case they are the truth this can be verified in Wh on the main map up Denerim.
In the map the description vary based of what you did with the urn if it was preserved it is revaled that a lot of turist came to Denerim with ships for years since the urn disappeared, i do not consider this as metagame but more likely as a predictable result since Genitivy told to you that he will reveal to the world the location of the Urn
scholars as well as all those people of the world moved by curiosity or faith will come to Ferelden thats a lot of money for the country after the blight ,an advantage far superior to reaver spec tha will force you to lose an healer (wynne) a rogue if not hardened and the urn.
Look i know that you prefer practicality but this buisness not just faith and buisness is something far to complicated to understand for the like of Sten or Morrigan (those two are the only one who dont agree to preserve the urn, in truth more Morrigan than Sten he simply do not care)
and all of this for a power that is not rare anymore in DA with all those dragons around.
Now you are just making stuff up, if i recall there is nowhere stated that preparation concerns only wyvern blood in fact if it did it description would distinguish it from dragon blood and it didn't.Also who said something about Kolgrim training you what he did he gave you access to the reaver power same to your trainer in dai did , once again you couldn't just drink dragon blood in order to become reaver in any of games and you required to deal with someone who had knowledge on that topic.
Except , no matter what you do temple is discovered and performs the same function and ashes are gone. I don't think that prioritizing tourism over blight is very bright idea given if you fail you would have no need for money and tourism, that is assuming you care about Ferelden well-being in first place and then you always could just send there forces after the blight and just clear the temple if you want tourist attraction (what in fact is exactly what happened after the blight) .None of companions is upset with you defiling ashes because it would be good business only because of faith.
Loghain was not definitely mentally unstable. He's, however, paranoid about Orlais and very skeptic about the Wardens due to their secrets..
I agree, at least to a certain extent.
Metagaming twice
I said you cannot know if Kolgrim will not attack you after that you did the dirty work for him.
You have only his words about the ashes being functional after being tainted.
The ashes can heal every disease this is way Tegan ask to found them they are kinda like an universal medicine and far more valuable than common dragon blood and no once you use them for Eamon ,they are removed from the inventory the game do not allow the warden to use them for personal gain, but they are an artifact who can heal disease and injuries ,so this magic is far more valuable and with great potential than simple lizard blood that can be found everywhere and yes for the lore of DA drink dragon blood is enough to become a reaver.
An universal heal is far more valuable than common dragon blood, Kolgrim is offering common wyvern blood for the dissacration of an unique artifact whom magic is unique and can heal better than healers.
Aren, I wish you well in your efforts to attempt to agrue with TKS. {:
Well, i think you also should wish him better arguments than yours in our discussion. 
You argue for killing Loghain because of retribution not pragmatic reasons, as i said killing Loghain grants you nothing outside retribution, while sparing him means extra asset in the form of very talented and well-renowned general.
It is a little bit more then retribution. You have no idea how trustworthy Loghain is. You might consider forcing somebody to become a Gray Warden to be a very bad idea and not just because of principals. Loghain is well respected and has a lot of sway over many of the nobles and potentially the queen and has performed actions that could be interpreted* as hating the Wardens. You might not want to have somebody at your back who you feel* has betrayed you in the past. Not to mention that the Grey Warden is not the general. He is not expected to lead, but to use any opportunity available to strike down a specific opponent and anything else is just a distraction. We know Loghain is a good general, but we don't know whether he is a good fighter
* Note that I purposely use words like 'interpreted' and 'feel'. I under your point of view, but there is no more solid evidence for your interpretation as for those denouncing Loghain and ultimately this is a RPG game where not everybody is either meta-gaming or playing the extremely pragmatic characters.
Shepard,I see Loghain for what he is and it has nothing to do with retribution he is a vile and evil criminal, committed crimes against humanity and a traitor to his queen, people and country. He is no asset even his daughter agrees he has gone mad. He's no longer a great general either since he couldn't stop a small band of guerrillas from raising a army nor could he stop a single Arl from having a Landsmeet that resulted in other Arls voting against him. You do recall his demented outburst after he lost at the Landsmeet? Seems only one Arl was dumb enough to support Loghain. Even his aid de camp turned against him..That's the woman that was going to stop the warden from entering the Landsmeet.
Death is his just reward and death he will receive in my games..
I agree, at least to a certain extent.
In what way, if I may ask?
It is a little bit more then retribution. You have no idea how trustworthy Loghain is. You might consider forcing somebody to become a Gray Warden to be a very bad idea and not just because of principals. Loghain is well respected and has a lot of sway over many of the nobles and potentially the queen and has performed actions that could be interpreted* as hating the Wardens. You might not want to have somebody at your back who you feel* has betrayed you in the past. Not to mention that the Grey Warden is not the general. He is not expected to lead, but to use any opportunity available to strike down a specific opponent and anything else is just a distraction. We know Loghain is a good general, but we don't know whether he is a good fighter
* Note that I purposely use words like 'interpreted' and 'feel'. I under your point of view, but there is no more solid evidence for your interpretation as for those denouncing Loghain and ultimately this is a RPG game where not everybody is either meta-gaming or playing the extremely pragmatic characters.
It isn't, as i said at point of we have option to kill him we know his motivations and as i have said it is in his best intrest to us succeed and he has been removed from position of power.Then once again decision is based on personal grudge not pragmatic reasons.We know that Loghain is a competent warrior for simple reason that we had to fight him.
My PoV comes from logical decision that is based on given evidence , and it is fine that somone doesn't want to play as pragmatic character but as i said it doesn't change that killing Loghain was needless.
Shepard,I see Loghain for what he is and it has nothing to do with retribution he is a vile and evil criminal, committed crimes against humanity and a traitor to his queen, people and country. He is no asset even his daughter agrees he has gone mad. He's no longer a great general either since he couldn't stop a small band of guerrillas from raising a army nor could he stop a single Arl from having a Landsmeet that resulted in other Arls voting against him. You do recall his demented outburst after he lost at the Landsmeet? Seems only one Arl was dumb enough to support Loghain. Even his aid de camp turned against him..That's the woman that was going to stop the warden from entering the Landsmeet.
Death is his just reward and death he will receive in my games..
LoL, you contradicted yourself in first sentence , pretty much you just said he commited crimes, he is evil and you want to kill him because of what he did.Except he is , and Anora was exaggerating later Loghain even says that Anora can be Drama Queen.Except he is , he crushed people that opposed him on the battlefield (what you can only hear about) and Landsmeet was political not military matter. I don't recall his "demented" outburst because there was none, as i recall calling out nobles, also Nobles can as well support Loghain depending on your choices.
That is fine but as i said it is still needless decision based on emotions.
In what way, if I may ask?
Well, because most of Loghain accusations against Orlais were in fact correct and well justified.
How were his accusations against Orlais 'correct and justified'? I don't recall Orlais attempting to invade Fereldan during or after the fifth Blight.It isn't, as i said at point of we have option to kill him we know his motivations and as i have said it is in his best intrest to us succeed and he has been removed from position of power.Then once again decision is based on personal grudge not pragmatic reasons.We know that Loghain is a competent warrior for simple reason that we had to fight him.
My PoV comes from logical decision that is based on given evidence , and it is fine that somone doesn't want to play as pragmatic character but as i said it doesn't change that killing Loghain was needless.
LoL, you contradicted yourself in first sentence , pretty much you just said he commited crimes, he is evil and you want to kill him because of what he did.Except he is , and Anora was exaggerating later Loghain even says that Anora can be Drama Queen.Except he is , he crushed people that opposed him on the battlefield (what you can only hear about) and Landsmeet was political not military matter. I don't recall his "demented" outburst because there was none, as i recall calling out nobles, also Nobles can as well support Loghain depending on your choices.
That is fine but as i said it is still needless decision based on emotions.
Well, because most of Loghain accusations against Orlais were in fact correct and well justified.
No emotions involved it's just business.. Or as we said in the days of my youth-Better thee then me. Loghain would not hesitate in killing you, Alistair and Eamond as he proved in my first game. No lovey dovey all is forgiven from Loghain. He wants you and Alistair dead period .
What's so hard to understand about that?
How were his accusations against Orlais 'correct and justified'? I don't recall Orlais attempting to invade Fereldan during or after the fifth Blight.
I think he was referring to Cailan planning to divorce Anora and marry Celene. For Loghain, that's two strikes against his son-in-law.
How were his accusations against Orlais 'correct and justified'? I don't recall Orlais attempting to invade Fereldan during or after the fifth Blight.
Because Orlais in fact tried to take over Ferelden after blight just not by using Force only machinations, then there is fact that Orlais wanted Ferelden back .Orlais also isn't known from being trustworthy to put it lightly and it wouldn't be first time Orlais took over country after blight ended.
No emotions involved it's just business.. Or as we said in the days of my youth-Better thee then me. Loghain would not hesitate in killing you, Alistair and Eamond as he proved in my first game. No lovey dovey all is forgiven from Loghain. He wants you and Alistair dead period .
What's so hard to understand about that?
There are cleary emotions involved but once again you were denaying it was retribution despite pretty much same sentence you have confirmed it was retribution.So once again that he tried to kill you and you want get back on him for it is still personal grudge and decision based on emotions.Also , no he doesn't want you dead he wanted you dead because you were threat to his plans there is difference.
Nothing so hard to understand about that , but problem that most thing you are saying aren't in case as i explained above.
Aren, I wish you well in your efforts to attempt to agrue with TKS. {:
I give up and say that i lost.
This cycle must end here.....
I give up and say that i lost.
This cycle must end here.....i lost komandor as Solas said the credit is yours all yours .
I will not ruin my holiday in Venice for this silly discussion so i surrender viva Kolgrim viva the dragon blood hail to the cultists.
As for Solas @secret rare the Evanuris will deal with him they are far more angry against him tha the Inq.
As for Morrigan she is immortal because Gaider love her, so in DAI he wrote that silly plot armor for her survival against the red lyrium dragon (the other dragon the Mythal guardian which is bigger than Morrigan dragon form die in the same scene in which also Morrigan is involved).
The queston is if she will simply disappear from the franchise?
To me this is possible despite what Mr Jb claimed on first page ,i think that we are already to the point of over exposure.
Morrigan is one of those characters that if you see in a game is more than enough
(i personaly strongly dislike her arrogant demanour) and it is something that
quickly increase the player fatigue and inacidate the opinin of her especially because her character is always involved into annoyng blackmails created from the writers, just to regurgitate her plot, enough is enough...players have a limit and they are annoyed by the
"Morrigan blackmail classical formula" basically annoyng and contrived situations created with tons of plot hole just to allow to her to "blackmail or make her offers" to the protagonist and those who refuse must pay something, enough is enough....
so please not again Bioware let her go .
Another game with another of the infamous blackmail with her involved.....no please, please!
convient.
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