305 réponses à ce sujet

[Tidus]

Loghain did send the Crows after you-remember the contract he made with the Crows?  Zevran being there had no bearing on the Crows real target-the wardens

 

They had to fullfil their contract with Loghain since the Crows are well known to get the job done so,they had no choice and they had to protect their reputation..

 

Loghian wants the wardens dead period as he did Arl Eamond and the Couslands. Howe wasn't working under his own authority when he betrayed and killed the Couslands.

 

You can argue all you want but it doesn't change the truth..

 

The killing season ends with Loghains death..

[Andromelek]

Optional =/= irrelevant. Quite the opposite in her case. She's a very strong character that's connected to an even stronger character. They could easily bring her back even stronger if they wanted. But in the current case it just makes sense - the OGB option needed closure and it's silly to think that you'll get to do that and then have her on the bench for the Mythal reveal. And they didn't just waste it, but used it to make her grow - from old magic crone to a mother (nice touch IMO). I wouldn't mind her getting the narrator role as her voice is quite pleasing, but empowering her more would be bad. Not only would it open even more plotholes but from a character development point would be a step back as we were clearly shown that she chose her son over old world magic.

Well, I know that she's a lovely mother and that was willing to sacrifice her free will to save her son, but she didn't renounce the old magic for him, on Temple of Mythal she was like "YOLO, I'm gonna drink from that mysterious and possibly dangerous Well and if something happens to me, my son can take care of himself", but I'm agree that they should just let her go, DA2 didn't have her and it wasn't bad (or if you think it was you likely don't hate it for Morrigan's absence), besides, she's been a talkative walking plot device to summon Flemeth, without her Morrigan doesn't have so much relevance.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Loghain did send the Crows after you-remember the contract he made with the Crows?  Zevran being there had no bearing on the Crows real target-the wardens

 

They had to fullfil their contract with Loghain since the Crows are well known to get the job done so,they had no choice and they had to protect their reputation..

 

Loghian wants the wardens dead period as he did Arl Eamond and the Couslands. Howe wasn't working under his own authority when he betrayed and killed the Couslands.

 

You can argue all you want but it doesn't change the truth..

 

The killing season ends with Loghains death..

 

Loghain send Zevran what was long time ago and those crows show up only and only if you have Zevran, so now you are making stuff up again.

 

You literally can do nothing more than ignore logic and evidence in favor of your bias that you can't support at this point , as i said at the point you can recruit Loghain he no longer has reason or desire to kill you and once again it is proven if recruited him, you can kick and scream otherwise but it will be only ignoring reality because it is fact. 

[Matriarch]

 

I opened this new topic since i was accused some weeks ago by certain users to not be allowed to use old topics for the purpose without being marked with the etiquette of necromancer, so here i'm with a post of 2015 november. 

As a player i genuinely believe that those two characters are more than worthy to die both for the personal outrages committed against the protagonists

(Warden and the Inquisitor) and both because they are extremely dangerous.

In order, i want to discuss the motivations as for why i believe that is absolutely indispensable to have this death option for these  two characters,a death option that has to be definitive and final not  like Witch Hunt or Corypheus shenanigans.

 

1. Morrigan

 

I can't help but starting to say that i want her dead absolutely for a series of motivations that are both objectively acceptable and others that come out as a personal grudge (immense hate) between two protagonists and her.

The objectively acceptable motivations that lead my Walden to want her absolutely dead  is the fact that she possess the knowledge to save the archdemons essence from the Grey wardens and she also know secrets of the order that she shouldn't know,she was also blathering of necessary change for people in order to be free, due to her own frustration she was sure what was best for others like one of those crazy blood mages,this is more than enough to want her dead.

Others series of motivations are a personal grudge that  my Warden and my Inquisitor have against her.

First she outright lied to my warden during the Flemeth quest,i asked to her as for why she was sent and she lied and sent my warden which was in good faith to combat against Flemeth,she didn't revealed the truth of the ritual at the time an yet i asked as for why she was sent,she lied,she confess in WH that she lied.

At redcliffe she deserted after that she gave her words to help in combat the blight,first  to Flemeth  later to my warden in person during the search of the first grimoire located into the mage towers,she said that with the grimoire she would have been more useful to me against the blight and yet she didn't maintained those words, i found the grimoire for her and she didn't help in ending the blight,i count this as an heavy betrayal

(i don't care to discuss this point with her fans, to me as well as to many players is a betrayal) of the leader of the group.

She went too far also when she suggested to kill all the parents and the family of my warden (this make the revenge personal) for no factual reason, as well as all those mages in the tower for nothing more than her personal ideologies.

Now now in no realistic scenario my warden would have allowed her to survive into that Dlc and even if her survival would have been better written (because seriously her WH survival is poorly written is the warden who push her into the mirror)

sure my HoF would have continued to hunt her down fo the rest of her life.

 Located her is easly since she wasn't hiding anywhere she was at the imperial court and she was easy to locate.

For my Inquisitor who never cared about the elves and did not respected the temple of Mythal,never performed the rituals and wanted to allow Abelas to destroy the well of sorrow as she was sure that one way or the other she would have find another sources of informations to kill Corypheus or at least his dragon, who was already losing badly at that point.

Morrigan killed the elf and showed great insubordination and later pretended to have the well of sorrow,now i do not know who was who wrote that part of the story but i had a distinct impression that was a choice forced down to my throat,either be a slave or let the shrew to have more power without being allowed to use someone else for the well of sorrow or simply pollute the well in order to not allow Corypheus to gain it.

This was an act of insubordination worthy of death for my Inquisitor, yet she Morrigan was allowed again of plot armor and forced to be in the Altar of Mythal even if she was not the host of the well of sorrow.

As a player i want an option to finish her for good this time,without stupid plot armors that will force my protagonists

(like the Warden in Wh) to let her survive for no other reason than sake into making the story of this foolish npc super mages.

If my warden would have been allowed to finish her Abelas wouldn't have been dead now and the well of FLemeth would have been destroyed.

As a player If killing her is the only way to not have her forced down my throat in subsequent games  in order to create conflictual situations in which she has to obtain more power for story sake....  i want her dead and let us ended by being a writer's pet.

 

 

 

2. Solas

While for this one i have nothing to say in regard of being a writer pets because clearly he isn't since he is a new character and his survival in Trespasser is obvious since he is more powerful than the Inquisitor ,we can't even touch him in Trespasser and so he become a future villain.

But i did consider what he did as a betrayal:lies,manipulation, terrible failure with the Orb and planning to destroy the actual world.

He is dangerous and unless he will not commit what he said that he wanted to do i see no other way to resolve the situation.

If He would not do what he is planning to do i personally will let him go, otherwise there can't be another way to resolve this.

 

edit 

before that someone will start and saying the grammar is not of my taste instead to comment on the topic,i will just ignore those comments since this is the best that i can do with english.)

 

 

Morrigan is the main character throughout all the series and will continue to be meaningful in every way due to her destiny, Godhood.

 

She is the character that has and will have most impact on the story behind the curtains, ever.

 

Morrigan will endure, despite my opinions about it, after so much work with her, killing her is off the charts.

 

Morrigan is Sam from LOTR, the hidden main character.

[Aren]

Except she is not , her role in dao was completely optional unlike characters like Alistair or Morrigan , her role in da 2 was small , forced and unnecessary.Pretty much Leliana "importance" in series comes from being writers pet alone that keep pushing her into many products and that is why she has most appearances but unlike characters like Flemeth and Morrigan that had clear importance and role in the series from get go she isn't important and her role easily could be replaced by new character at any moment.

Morrigan and Alistair are absolutly optional, for morrigan this is obvious you can dismiss her at lothering and later at redclieffe and goodbye ciao ciao,her story in Dao in this case amount to nothing and you re still blatering of Morrigan being relevant?
Alistair you can left him at camp until you remove him at the landsmeet or kill him again in this scenario his story become irrelevant.
Leliana whter you like it or not is the character with more precence in the franchise she is also in the last Dlc and she is immortal where nor Alstair and not Morrigan are present.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Morrigan and Alistair are absolutly optional, for morrigan this is obvious you can dismiss her at lothering and later at redclieffe and goodbye ciao ciao,her story in Dao in this case amount to nothing and you re still blatering of Morrigan being relevant?
Alistair you can left him at camp until you remove him at the landsmeet or kill him again in this scenario his story become irrelevant.
Leliana whter you like it or not is the character with more precence in the franchise she is also in the last Dlc and she is immortal where nor Alstair and not Morrigan are present.

Morrigan and Alistair roles in story are not optional (lol), regardless how quickly you kick out Morrigan she still has role in Ostagar, joins your party, plot of dark ritual shows up regardless of what you do and no matter what you did she have important role in Witch Hunt that even further shows her role isn't over. Alistair has role in Ostagar and is forced companion through almost entire game, he has important and necessary role in Landsmeet.So yes regardless of what you do Alistair and Morrigan have role in dao in contrast to Leliana that you can in fact never meet.

 

Leliana also isn't immortal , Leliana can be killed but that was ignored in later games because writers bad decision making and favoritism toward her, so as i said her importance comes solely from being writers pet.Also Alistair and Morrigan aren't present during DLC because in first place it is prequel so as well you i could use Leliana not showing up in The calling or Stolen Throne as an argument and it would make as much sense that means very little.  

[Andromelek]

Meh, honestly, I consider the three of them as the overrated club for a reason...

[Tidus]

Loghain send Zevran what was long time ago and those crows show up only and only if you have Zevran, so now you are making stuff up again.

 

You literally can do nothing more than ignore logic and evidence in favor of your bias that you can't support at this point , as i said at the point you can recruit Loghain he no longer has reason or desire to kill you and once again it is proven if recruited him, you can kick and scream otherwise but it will be only ignoring reality because it is fact. 

 

No, The contract was in full when the Crows find you in Denerim..

 

The evidence is Loghain is a criminal and wants the wardens dead.. Fail at the Landsmeet in your next game and see how fast he wants you taken outside and executed.

 

I kill him because of his crimes.

[TheKomandorShepard]

No, The contract was in full when the Crows find you in Denerim..

 

The evidence is Loghain is a criminal and wants the wardens dead.. Fail at the Landsmeet in your next game and see how fast he wants you taken outside and executed.

 

I kill him because of his crimes.

Once again Loghain sent Zevran and that was his part in that, Crows in Denerim show up only and only if you have Zevran thus they are related to Zevran not Loghain, Loghain part in that was finished after he sent Zevran rest were just crows own actions plain and simple . 

 

Fact of Loghain being criminal have nothing to do with thing we argue about and that is Loghain wanting you to die and no you don't have evidence that Loghain wants the warden dead only that he wanted you dead before Landsmeet culmination, what doesn't not contribute to the fact it not being in case when you can make decision about killing or sparing him. And once again you repeat irevelant fact that is proving only that he wanted at some point to kill you because you posed threat to his position and you ignore fact that was no longer in case when you were making decision.  

[Aren]

Morrigan and Alistair roles in story are not optional (lol), regardless how quickly you kick out Morrigan she still has role in Ostagar, joins your party, plot of dark ritual shows up regardless of what you do and no matter what you did she have important role in Witch Hunt that even further shows her role isn't over. Alistair has role in Ostagar and is forced companion through almost entire game, he has important and necessary role in Landsmeet.So yes regardless of what you do Alistair and Morrigan have role in dao in contrast to Leliana that you can in fact never meet.

 

Leliana also isn't immortal , Leliana can be killed but that was ignored in later games because writers bad decision making and favoritism toward her, so as i said her importance comes solely from being writers pet.Also Alistair and Morrigan aren't present during DLC because in first place it is prequel so as well you i could use Leliana not showing up in The calling or Stolen Throne as an argument and it would make as much sense that means very little.  

You insist despite i provide evidence?

If Morrigan is rejected immediately at Lothering and then again at Redcliffe she become pretty much irrelevant since she did nothing in DAO in this scenario not even help you since is FLemeth the character that:

a)preserve the documents

b)heal and help you.

c)told to Morrigan the dark ritual plot...

What? important role int tha lame dlc of Wh?

What important role are you blathering about?

if Wh is loaded with a negated Dark ritual,virtually the warden has literally no reason to want to meet her,yea she is trying to do something with an Eluvian in some forgotten cave? and so what? I don't care absolutly .....

Wh a dlc  that pretend to rotate around Morrigan,but then she is just there for 3 minutes at the ending and is blathering about general notions that are irrelevant...

change is coming,change is coming.......

so what? The world is always changed and is always in constant changing is part of it's nature, i didn't need to met Morrigan just to listen at those silly things.

Even the supposed clue of the cure of the taint amounted to nothing since ten years later there is no resolution about this contrived thing and neither it was something important to pursue for the Warden since with Avernus i can delay the calling for 200 years and hire others scholar to improve his research,Wh was just the lamest Dlc ever

all in all Wh did make a sense just for those who did the DR or her boyfriends..

Same with Alistair he is irrelevant if the specific path is taken,because the warden can very much take the throne at his place,use Loghain to eliminate the archdemon and or never use him.

Those two are character of whom destiny is under the player control with whatever protagonist you are in control(warden or Inq),it is the player who will decide o how muh relevance they have to possess,unlike character like Solas or Anders who will end upo to do what they do a t the end without the player's authorization.

[Tidus]

Aren,Save your time..Its his way or no way. He doesn't even understand the Crows met in Denerim was after the wardens nor does he understand the contract for the wardens was still in force. He doesn't see the real enemy is Loghain.

 

I'm finished with him.

[TheKomandorShepard]

 

You insist despite i provide evidence?

If Morrigan is rejected immediately at Lothering and then again at Redcliffe she become pretty much irrelevant since she did nothing in DAO in this scenario not even help you since is FLemeth the character that:

a)preserve the documents

b)heal and help you.

c)told to Morrigan the dark ritual plot...

What? important role int tha lame dlc of Wh?

What important role are you blathering about?

if Wh is loaded with a negated Dark ritual,virtually the warden has literally no reason to want to meet her,yea she is trying to do something with an Eluvian in some forgotten cave? and so what? I don't care absolutly .....

Wh a dlc  that pretend to rotate around Morrigan,but then she is just there for 3 minutes at the ending and is blathering about general notions that are irrelevant...

change is coming,change is coming.......

so what? The world is always changed and is always in constant changing is part of it's nature, i didn't need to met Morrigan just to listen at those silly things.

Even the supposed clue of the cure of the taint amounted to nothing since ten years later there is no resolution about this contrived thing and neither it was something important to pursue for the Warden since with Avernus i can delay the calling for 200 years and hire others scholar to improve his research,Wh was just the lamest Dlc ever

all in all Wh did make a sense just for those who did the DR or her boyfriends..

Same with Alistair he is irrelevant if the specific path is taken,because the warden can very much take the throne at his place,use Loghain to eliminate the archdemon and or never use him.

Those two are character of whom destiny is under the player control with whatever protagonist you are in control(warden or Inq),it is the player who will decide o how muh relevance they have to possess,unlike character like Solas or Anders who will end upo to do what they do a t the end without the player's authorization.

 

 

LoL, you didn't provide evidence i did, where you provided evidence well except in this post (and this is hardly evidence) where you went on the rant what Morrigan didn't do and other character did instead what she did do or tried to dismiss what she did because reasons that still wouldn't change fact she had role in dao because she did them.Regardless of your claims she had role in dao once again in Ostagar where she lead you to Flemeth and helped you get out of the wilderness, then she introduces Dark Ritual to the player (and no that flemeth told her about dark ritual doesn't change that fact) and no once again kicking her out in Lothering won't change any of those because they happen regardless.

 

What role, did you fail to notice that entire DLC is about chasing Morrigan and DLC even further showed that Morrigan and Flemeth roles aren't over and they are up to something.You can complain that you didn't like DLC but your personal preference won't change fact that DLC was focused on her and she had important role in this DLC.To my knowledge , also DLC isn't only for those wardens that romanced Morrigan but for those that befriended or hated her and if your warden wasn't involved emotionally like for an example Orlesian warden motivation is simply investigating Morrigan activities and seeking answers, pretty much sure you can establish your motivation in first place.

 

Once again Alistair has role no matter what you did and how matter you scream otherwise , as i said he was helping you through almost entire Ostagar and he is companion through entire game even if you don't use him a single time after Ostagar you still have to talk to him occasionally , and once again that you didn't pick Alistair up doesn't not change that Alistair had important role in Landsmeet as in first place Landsmeet was called because of him as Eamon tried to put him on the throne and he was potential candidate.So in the end Alistair and Morrigan have roles in dao and you can't change it with your actions ,plain and simple.

 

 

Aren,Save your time..Its his way or no way. He doesn't even understand the Crows met in Denerim was after the wardens nor does he understand the contract for the wardens was still in force. He doesn't see the real enemy is Loghain.

 

I'm finished with him.

 

If Crows you met in Denerim were after you they would show up regardless of Zevran being in your party because The Warden would be target, also that contract was still intact doesn't matter once again as i said all part Loghain played in that was hiring crows before Zevran even attacked you. And no Loghain isn't real enemy as you claimed i already proven that by simply pointing to scenario where you recruit him and he is your ally , problem is on your part and it is that you refuse facts when provided and begin to throw unrelated things to insult Loghain.

 

So my role is done here, you can't prove that im wrong and i can prove that im right, nothing more to say .  

[Aren]

LoL, you didn't provide evidence i did, where you provided evidence well except in this post (and this is hardly evidence) where you went on the rant what Morrigan didn't do instead what she did do or tried to dismiss what she did because reasons

1)that still wouldn't change fact she had role in dao.Regardless of your claims she had role in dao once again in Ostagar where she lead you to Flemeth and helped you get out of the wilderness,

then she introduces Dark Ritual to the player (and no that flemeth told her about dark ritual doesn't change that fact) and no once again kicking her out in Lothering won't change any of those because they happen regardless.

 

What role, did you fail to notice that entire DLC is about chasing Morrigan and DLC even further showed that Morrigan and Flemeth roles aren't over and they are up to something.You can complain that you didn't like DLC but your personal preference won't change fact that DLC was focused on her and she had important role in this DLC.To my knowledge , also DLC isn't only for those wardens that romanced Morrigan but for those that befriended or hated her and if your warden wasn't involved emotionally like for an example Orlesian warden motivation is simply investigating Morrigan activities and seeking answers, pretty much sure you can establish your motivation in first place.

 

Once again Alistair has role no matter what you did and how matter you scream otherwise , as i said he was helping you through almost entire Ostagar and he is companion through entire game even if you don't use him a single time after Ostagar you still have to talk to him occasionally , and once again that you didn't pick Alistair up doesn't not change that Alistair had important role in Landsmeet as in first place Landsmeet was called because of him as Eamon tried to put him on the throne and he was potential candidate.So in the end Alistair and Morrigan have roles in dao and you can't change it with your actions ,plain and simple.

 

 

 

Ok my last post on this specific subject,which is basically the concept of characters

bound to optional contents and as for why i consider them to be irrelevant to the story if a certain call,path is chosen.

 

I never said that she didn't had a role (each companion has a role, a part to play) i merely stated that her role is heavily dependent on player choice and under specific circumstances she became immensely irrelevant,dismiss her at Lothering and reject her at Redcliffe.

It was Flemeth who predicted the arrival of the wardens for the documents and told to Morrigan to go to them and bring them to her.

The Warden was forced by Flemeth to took her for Lothering and didn't had a choice because Flemeth insisted,however they did not need her to reach Lothering,the warden and AListair were perfectly capable to move into the wilds without Morrigan,since as Alistair said to Jory he is perfectly capable to not become a prey of the main horde or of too many darkspawns,while the warden is so expert that is capable to uncover hidden secrets of the chasind into the wilds and orient him/herslef without problem,they didn't need Morrigan to reach Lothering,they took her because FLemeth demanded so as a request for her previous help,she asked to bring her at  least until Lothering.

She can introduce whatever she wish and play her part of the story,but so long these events are optional their impact as well as Morrigan relevance will be bound to the player decision.

Wh is absolutely irrelevant for those wardens who didn't care for her(for revenge or love or whatever) and didn't consider that there was something to investigate about her failed plans and didn't had a reason to meet her by walk all of Ferelden from south,to east,to north just for her...? pf

Morrigan is up to do nothing,she didn't had any plan she just spent time on the research of pretty shine things of the ancient world,is Flemeth the one that is up to something not Morrigan,Flemeth who has plans and a story that need resolution not Morrigan.

 

 

Again same thing for Alistair his role is dependant on the player choice,and can become very much irrelevant,the role of the puppet used by Eamon for his political claims and nothing more until he got exiled or killed.

The warden can very much alli with Anora and agree with her prior the landsmeet and use her support to defeat Loghain.

Eamon is a major noble that was interested in defeating Loghain , he can call the landsmeet this is in his power,he didn't do that because of Alistair,  the primary focus of that Landsmeet was to discuss about Loghain treachery and his actions as well as the blight,not to put AListair on the throne (that was just one of Eamon hopes)  ,you can very much use Anora or the Human male noble for the throne.

 

Having a role does not equate of being important for the story,those are characters like Solas,Flemeth,Anders , Isabela, Cassandra

(who found the inq and helped create the organization just like Leliana)that no matter what you do wi ll end up to move the plot to a climax that is mandatory.

Solas=DAI ending,Trespasser ending

Flemeth=DAO,DA2,DAI ending and her power now to Solas.

Anders=DA2 ending

Isabela=DA2 2nd arch

Cassandra and Leliana=DA2 ending,DAI beginning and roles absolved.

 

Those are by my estimation charcters that are more relevant than both Alistair and Morrigan

 

 

 

[TheKomandorShepard]

 

Ok my last post on this specific account,which is basically the concept of characters

bound to optional contents and as for who i consider them to be relevant to the story if a certain call,path is chosen.

 

I never said that she didn't had a role (each companion has a role, a part to play) i merely stated that her role is heavily dependent on player choice and under specific circumstances she became immensely irrelevant,dismiss her at Lothering and reject her at Redcliffe.

It was Flemeth who predicted the arrival of the wardens for the documents and told to Morrigan to go to them and bring them to her.

The Warden was forced by Flemeth to took her for Lothering and didn't had a choice because Flemeth insisted,however they did not need her to reach Lothering,the warden and AListair are perfectly capable to move into the wilds without Morrigan,since as Alistair said to Jory he is perfectly capable to not become a prey of the main horde or of too many darkspawns,while the warden is so expert that is capable to uncover hidden secrets of the chasind into the wilds,they didn't need Morrigan to reach Lothering,they took her because FLemeth demanded so.

She can introduce whatever she wish and play her part of the story,but so long these events are optional their impact as well as Morrigan role and faith will be bound to the player decision.

Wh is absolutely irrelevant for those wardens who didn't care of her and didn't consider that was nothing to investigate about her failed plans and didn't had a reason to meet her by walk all of Ferelden from south,to east,to north just for her...? pff

Morrigan is up to do nothing,she didn't had any plan she just spent time on the research of pretty shine things of the ancient world,is Flemeth the one that is up to something not Morrigan,Flemeth who has plans and a story that need resolution not Morrigan.

 

 

Again same thing for Alistair his role is dependant on the player choice,and can become very much irrelevant,the role of the puppet used by Eamon for his political claims and nothin more until he got exiled or killed.

 

Having a role does not equate of being important for the story,those are characters like SOlas and Anders or Isabela,that no matter what you do wi ll end up to move the plot to a climax that is mandatory.

 

 

 

 

None of that matters as in first place you said that they were optional in dao, and they weren't because once again Morrigan and Alistair have roles and they aren't optional .

 

To quote what you have said

 

Morrigan and Alistair are absolutly optional, for morrigan this is obvious you can dismiss her at lothering and later at redclieffe and goodbye ciao ciao,her story in Dao in this case amount to nothing and you re still blatering of Morrigan being relevant?

 

What is simply not truth, once again Morrigan and Alistair have content and that content isn't optional and is involved in main story no matter what you do.Saying "oh i could do better" or " i don't care about it " doesn't change once again fact that Morrigan leading you to Flemeth , helping you to get out of the wilderness and introducing dark ritual are mandatory content in main story and by that isn't optional and you can only react to them not change it.

 

No, it isn't irevelant, as i said every warden whether you liked or not had motivation to go after her as every warden whether you liked or not had motivation to stop blight, motivation once again is up to you. Morrigan is deeply involved in Flemeth storyline and vice versa whether you like it or not and series in first game established that Morrigan and Flemeth plans as well conflict between them will be part of future franchise and their role in it wasn't over.

 

What still doesn't change fact he has role and that role isn't optional as i explained many times , and in fact his role is revelant because it affects main plot of the game and yes being pawn to someone and it driving story is revelant.

 

 

[Edit]

I see you edited it ,No i doesn't but it is required,and this is not what were were discussing in first place as i pointed above you tried to sell Alistair and Morrigan as optional content what i have proved to not be in case.

 

Also, no landsmeet is convened because Eamon tried to put Alistair on the throne in order to oust Loghain from power thus Alistair served as tool that affected the story and once again what you love to ignore puting Anora on the Throne is irrelevant as Landsmeet that was started by Eamon claming Alistair had right to the throne landsmeet is still convened because of it and it is topic of that Landsmeet and story resolves around picking monarch and Alistair is still candidate thus important part of the story .

 

As i said Morrigan and Flemeth were important to the Franchise because as i said their storylines and future role in it was established since first game and their storylines are connected.Leliana on other hand had no visible importance in games outside Inquisition where she had bigger mandatore role but fact is that she could be easily replaced by new character unlike Flemeth and Morrigan that had and have exclusive to them storyline in Franchise that could be preformed only by them.  

 

 

   

[Secret Rare]

I would like this topic to remain focused about the same discussion,
since i saw too many posts that had nothing to do with it.
 

1)She did not lie to the Warden when she requested his help in killing Flemeth.
The fact that she was aware that she was sent to give birth to a reborn Urthemiel does not necessarely exclude the possibility that she genuinely believed one of Flemeth's reasons for sending her away were so she could prepare her body transfer ritual in peace.
As Dragon Age Inquisition proves, Morrigan genuinely believed Flemeth was going to try to possess her.


2)Yeah, well, when you make a thread on these forums, you are opening the topic for discussion.
So, let us see, by Redcliff, Morrigan had spent around a year, give or take, accompanying the Warden around, from the top of the mountains to the deepest pits, fighting Darkspawn, golems, soldiers, demons, Abominations, etc, never once doing anything to prevent the Warden from taking actions she personally disagreed with and, possibly, even forming her first friendship with or falling in love with Warden and, when she asks him/her for something that she strongly believes in, she is refused.
And you're angry that she walks away? I'm sorry that Morrigan has opinions of her own.
It's not like every other Companion can walk away or even try to kill you. Oh wait, yes they can.

And weren't you just arguing that keeping the knowledge of how to save the Archdemon's soul from the Wardens means she should die? If so, why are you not taking her offer?




3)Don't you want to kill her for your personal ideologies?



4)And being protected by the most powerful person in Thedas, the freaking Empress of the most powerful Empire in Thedas.



5)Ok, so, your Inquisitor wants to destroy the only known source of knowledge on how to defeat Corypheus.
Morrigan wants to save it.
Ergo, she is the one who should die because she did not went along with the plan of destroying the only resource we have and wing it afterwards?

Seems to me, Morrigan just saved the world.

I will repeat this again if the previous posts weren't clear enough

 

0)

Varel and Woolsey are affiliates of the order,they are there under the first warden orders so they are allowed to know some of their secrets.

When the Grey Wardens took over Amaranthine, they reinstated Varel as seneschal,he is allowed to know the wardens gave him the permission same for Woolsey,she is not a GW but she is still an affiliate to the order Morrigan isn't.

Just like Duncan killed Jory who didn't want to be part of the order after come to know of the joining,my warden can use the same reason to want to eliminate Morrigan for not being part of the Grey but knowing about the US.

She is not part of the grey and traveling with my warden does not make her a grey warden nor an affiliate.

 

 

 

 

1)

Morrigan lied to the Warden during the Flemeth quest, open the toolset check the dialogues and read those descriptions on the dialogues between Flemeth and the Warden
Your pespective here is invalid,it does not matter what she believed of Flemeth plans she also lied and did not revealed the whole truth to the specific question,the whole truth not only what was convenient for her,this is by the definition a deception and a lie.
Evidence from the Toolset vs your personal opinion.


2)Morrigan promised to be more useful to the Warden in return of the 1st tome that was located on the top of Irving's desk, Evidence her Dialogues before to retrive the Grimoire, so the arguments about her being a volunteer , witch, mercenary ecc.. do not disqualify the betrayal, SHE GAVE HER WORD, SHE GAVE HER WORD, SHE GAVE HER WORD for that favor
(I hope that now this can be read by those who seem to conviniently forget this point.)
She can be confronted and accused in WH for betrayal not only because of her lies but also with the desertion angle perceptive (Non DR version) And she do not defend herself with your whole silly "she is just a volunteer " argument she invent the only silly thing that come to her mind
(You abandoned me)
Nope not really, you did , you abandoned me and left the whole world to burn for your phatetics whims.
She inserted herself into the group only to obtain the OGB and left when this was denied, this is the ultimate proof that she was just using me.
The fact that she spent an year and bla, bla, bla(sorry if i don't care i'm not her boyfriend, i'm the leader of this group)was to complete her mission first and foremost yet she did know that the main goal of the Warden was from the start to destroy not to preserve.
(I'm sorry Morrigan has opinion of her own)
I'm sorry that this has nothing to do with what i said, she was not allowed to betray the Warden, because that is a personal betrayal, to lie and decive and use the protagonist for her own advantage against Flemeth
(yes this does count as put the Warden in danger because she lied again TOOLSET)
I do not take her offer because i can't stomach using a child to gain something and using him as bait for a monster and to appeal at her selfish purpose.
I will never do something that i find to be repulsive like the DR and much less i will never allow my char to be the Morrigan obedient's tools.


3) I want to kill her for VENGENCE
Steal that book from the elves  as well as decieve the protagonist and suggested the murderer of the entire Warden family is more than enough.
VENGENCE for the Dalish clan of Ariane and REVENGE for the Warden.

She was the one advocating the murder of others in DAO based only on her psychotic view

-let's just kill all the mages and childs here because is fun and there is nothing to gain.

-let's just kill this merchant in Lothering because is fun

and i'm the one advocating the murderer of others for ideologies and because is fun or because i  dislike a character?

No, my reason is vengeance not a murderer for fun

 

 

4) Where are your evidence?
Again where is stated that Celene is protecting her? This is your claim and nothing more.
Celene is not protecting anyone other than herself and Morrigan is just a subordinate for her not someone to protect, SHE DOES NOT CARE FOR HER LIFE the only thing that protected her was a plot armor in WH and another in DAO
(since it is not possible to attack her in the main game unlike all the others conpanions) and again in DAI where the Red lyrium dragon defeated her and yet unlike the Mythal guardian she survived during the same cinematic scene.
A living being who fall badly from several Km from the sky without protection is destinated TO AN INEVITABLE DEATH, in fact the Mythal guardian die because of that fall, but Gaider forbid her personal pet to die even if she fall from the inner space into the planet.
Oh yes she is just ok after a fall from several Km from the Sky, very realistic...

5) My inquisitor is the leader of the Inquisition and she is allowed to decide what approach to a problem is the best based on her pespective, she is the leader not Morrigan.
Do you have evidence that without the well of sorrow the Inquisition would have failed?
Are you sure that Solas or Abelas would have not provide the info for the inquisition given the fact that was in Solas best interest to kill Corypheus and also didn't cost anything to do this for Abelas?

Iquisitor
"The decision to kill Abelas was mine not yours"

 

pretty much about the whole points of your post non made sense to me except for the very first one that was more about the problems surrounding the death penalty .

[Madfox11]

It isn't, as i said at point of we have option to kill him we know his motivations and as i have said it is in his best intrest to us succeed and he has been removed from position of power.Then once again decision is based on personal grudge not pragmatic reasons.We know that Loghain is a competent warrior for simple reason that we had to fight him.

 

LOL. Since when in RL did removing somebody's title actually remove him from that position of power? If that were true, there would have been a lot less murders in history. Loghain did not get his influence from the title, but from his past actions and the respect it earned him from the Feraldens. Making him a Warden does not remove said influence.

 

Personally, I would have agreed with you a lot more if the writers had worked more on differentiating between the actions of Howe and Loghain. Between the lines you can read that Howe is actually behind most of the bad decisions, but Loghain still approved them personally. If they had wanted to depict Loghain more as a redeemable character, they would have him be at least a little bit horrified about some of the things you bring forth to the Landsmeet in regards to what Howe has done.

[Addictress]

NO, I LOVE SOLAS
SOLAS MUST NOT DIE! PLEASE, I BESEECH YOU!

LET MY LOVE LIVE!!

[TheKomandorShepard]

LOL. Since when in RL did removing somebody's title actually remove him from that position of power? If that were true, there would have been a lot less murders in history. Loghain did not get his influence from the title, but from his past actions and the respect it earned him from the Feraldens. Making him a Warden does not remove said influence.

 

Personally, I would have agreed with you a lot more if the writers had worked more on differentiating between the actions of Howe and Loghain. Between the lines you can read that Howe is actually behind most of the bad decisions, but Loghain still approved them personally. If they had wanted to depict Loghain more as a redeemable character, they would have him be at least a little bit horrified about some of the things you bring forth to the Landsmeet in regards to what Howe has done.

 

Since you are disgraced in front of nobility , your public status is now kingslayer, traitor and you are far away from most popular person in Ferelden to put in lightly.Pretty much Loghain situation would be compared to Florianne.To provide evidence we can see that rather cleary if we keep him alive and it takes US for him to redeem himself in Ferelden eyes.

 

Whether Loghain (or another person) can be redeemed is up to personal judgement they definitely gave him sympathetic features, but that wasn't my point as i said i was talking about killing Loghain being pointless and wasteful.

[Illegitimus]

 

2)Morrigan promised to be more useful to the Warden in return of the 1st tome that was located on the top of Irving's desk, Evidence her Dialogues before to retrive the Grimoire, so the arguments about her being a volunteer , witch, mercenary ecc.. do not disqualify the betrayal, SHE GAVE HER WORD, SHE GAVE HER WORD, SHE GAVE HER WORD 

 

She didn't actually.  She said she'd be more useful because she'd more powerful.  

[Secret Rare]

NO, I LOVE SOLAS
SOLAS MUST NOT DIE! PLEASE, I BESEECH YOU!

LET MY LOVE LIVE!!

If he will renounce to his plan sure,he can live even for others million of years if he wish ,he is pretty benevolent  towards everyone in DAI until the last Dlc.......

and if he truly want to kill everyone included his lover Lavellan..... we must stop him also for his sake.

 

 

She didn't actually.  She said she'd be more useful because she'd more powerful.  

You are truly incapable to see the contradiction of your own statement?

She said "i will be more useful to you, for your quest if you will do this favor to me.

Did she helped in Denerim?Answer no ,so i took that as another lie,words that she did not  maintained hence betrayal

She did not maintained her words,Is pretty unfair to try to dance around her words like somebody else tried to do and like Morrigan also love to do. 

[Madfox11]

You are truly incapable to see the contradiction of your own statement?

She said "i will be more useful to you, for your quest if you will do this favor to me.

Did she helped in Denerim?Answer no ,so i took that as another lie,words that she did not  maintained hence betrayal

She did not maintained her words,Is pretty unfair to try to dance around her words like somebody else tried to do and like Morrigan also love to do. 

 

In all fairness, up to Denerim she still keeps helping you. She never strictly offered a time limit. Mind you, I am aware that is mostly semantics. Her leaving on the eve of a major battle is 'treachery', just not the type where the traitor stabs you in the back and sells you out to the enemy. Of course, it might also not be something you are angry about. You are after all asking her to do something that goes against her core principals: destroying the soul of an old god.

[Akiza]

In all fairness, up to Denerim she still keeps helping you. She never strictly offered a time limit. Mind you, I am aware that is mostly semantics. Her leaving on the eve of a major battle is 'treachery', just not the type where the traitor stabs you in the back and sells you out to the enemy. Of course, it might also not be something you are angry about. You are after all asking her to do something that goes against her core principals: destroying the soul of an old god.

This was a similar thought to mine.

It is not the kind of treachery a la "Arl Howe" to put it likely,but frankly is annoying 

For both Solas and Morrigan:

It is better to be deceived by one's friends than to deceive them.

Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

 

[Donquijote and 59 others]

I truly dislike Morrigan and Solas as they were quite similar in their arrogant demeanor,they are simply incapable to learn what lies beyond their flawed sight.

First of all, having an opinion of how things would be better makes Morrigan no different from 100% of humanity. 

 

Second, Morrigan does not even perform actions that are harmful to others in order to create what she perceives as a better world unlike people like Anders or Corypheus. 

 

She did not lie to the Warden when she requested his help in killing Flemeth.

As it is there are quite a lot of people in the world who surely are humble enough to recognize that they lack the wisdom as well as  the competence to know what is best for everyone in the world,so your 100%  has to decrease a little bit as i'm clearly not part of it.

 

-Morrigan perceived that it was in the best interest of herself to preserve the well of sorrow and in order to accomplish that she killed someone,isn't that harmful to others?No? Abelas doesn't count because he is not a companion or a protagonist?

 

What about the book that she stole from the Dalish?Did not Ariane risked her life for that book? 

 

What about her mother of whom she demanded the death without giving the benefit of the doubt?

 

What about The warden that she sent to risk their life based on a deception? (read the Toolset since it seems that you created a contrived explanation to absolve her,she is liar is part of her character)

 

 

 

In short you clearly see  her on a pedestal and don't wont to admit that she wronged those persons that were mentioned.

I don't want to kill Morrigan. Doing so would require her to return, and that is something that has happened far too many times already. I would rather she never appear again.

I hope so.

Some people don't like her and yet Bioware insist that they do.

[9TailsFox]

 

I truly dislike Morrigan and Solas as they were quite similar in their arrogant demeanor,they are simply incapable to learn what lies beyond their flawed sight.

As it is there are quite a lot of people in the world who surely are humble enough to recognize that they lack the wisdom as well as  the competence to know what is best for everyone in the world,so your 100%  has to decrease a little bit as i'm clearly not part of it.

 

-Morrigan perceived that it was in the best interest of herself to preserve the well of sorrow and in order to accomplish that she killed someone,isn't that harmful to others?

What about the book that she stole from the Dalish?Did not Ariane risked her life for that book? 

What about her mother of whom she demanded the death without giving the benefit of the doubt?

What about The warden that she sent to risk their life based on a deception? (read the Toolset)

 

She clearly deceived and lied to the Warden during the quest of the real Grimoire,as it is stated in the Toolset.

I'm of the opinion that when a question is posed you either respond with the truth or you either hide the truth or part of it for you own advantage,which is the definition of deception, to mislead by deliberate misrepresentation or lies.

 

 

In short you clearly see  her on a pedestal.

I hope so.

Some people don't like her and yet Bioware insist that they do.

 

I don't think Morrigan lie about Flemeth possession maybe Flemeth just toy with Morrigan, as much as I like Morrigan after DA:I I can believe Morigan is that stupid or as you say shortsighted she thinks she know better than everyone else but knows nothing. And there is no denying Morrigan is "evil" or don't care about others at all only about herself and think who belong to her.

[Donquijote and 59 others]

I don't think Morrigan lie about Flemeth possession maybe Flemeth just toy with Morrigan, as much as I like Morrigan after DA:I I can believe Morigan is that stupid or as you say shortsighted she thinks she know better than everyone else but knows nothing. And there is no denying Morrigan is "evil" or don't care about others at all only about herself and think who belong to her.

Morrigan didn't lied about what she learned of Flemeth in that grimoire that she clearly misinterpreted,she truly believed for 10 years more or less to be an host and a potential prey of her mother.

However at the same time during that quest she wasn't truthful and transparent with the Warden,she decieved them and lied to their question about why she was sent asit is explained in the Toolset,she did that to hide the dark ritual from the Warden..