92 réponses à ce sujet

[Ahglock]

so you fundamentally don't understand the realism complaint

alternatively, this: you believe that nothing exciting has happened in the real world, ever, and that fiction is the only source for interesting things

because that is the apagoge of what you're saying: if it could theoretically have happened, it would make for "crappy entertainment", and only the unrealistic is interesting

I'm guessing you don't understand the realism complaint then. As the realism complaint is never about what could happen in reality but that everyone must act in certain logical ways.

The realism complaint is about vasir not just running yet in reality there are tons of times people could have run but made the wrong choice not to. Maybe she was just done running and wanted to take you out. Who freaking knows she could make that choice, but the realism complaint gets pissy about it.

The shields thing, and toughness of villains is somewhat legit but would lead to very anti climactic end scenes. Some might find that more fun though so I'm okay with that as a design choice. if realism ended there and like physics effects of be fine. But it never ends there and goes into things that can happen but just doesn't fit that persons take on how people act. Eff that I'll take the better story.

[Laughing_Man]

A lot of militia and death squad leaders a few decades back were very hands on, hence more often not they just bombed or shelled their positions rather then wading through fifty AK and RPG toting coked up goons plus the fellows themselves who were sitting on a armory.

Just blow up where they are if you can makes any fight easier.

Failing that rapid insertions and ballistic breaching charges are your friend.

 

True, but when I said "hands on" I was talking more about a veteran field operative like a Spectre, a vicious and extremely violent Alien like the Shadow Broker, or the arrogant Warden of Puragatory. So even after you kill the goons you still have to deal with a combatant that knows what he is doing and has access to the best high tech Sci-Fi Gadgets money can buy. (at least in some cases)

 

Orbital bombardment or other heavy explodey solutions are not always applicable.

 

But he's still just one guy. His smart move would be to have ten, fifty, or whatever other guys also outfited in the good stuff.

 

After you cut them down, he still has his own skill and expensive weapons to fall back on. And you can hardly outfit an entire army with top of the line gear that costs millions.

[Fade9wayz]

I don't care about realism, or psychology. I just want a few big Bad bosses à la BloodBorne, with diverse mechanics, that we get to fight and kill through and through. Not Bloody reaper we have to dodge between two walls until the flotilla can bomb it, or extremely far off Tresher Maw. That we never really got to fight one up close and personal will always be one of my main regrets.

 

I suppose that for the more psychology orientated people here, we can keep some evil, but complex mastermind that we'll talk to death like TIM or Saren. I'll be disapointed with the ending yet again, but if the middle bosses are fun, I will be content with the journey.

 

Speaking of Tresher Maws, I will miss them, they were the only reason I was avidly scouring every explorable planet back in ME1...

[spinachdiaper]

Boss battles are terrible puzzle, gimmick, and QTEs now a days, just give me a large bullet sponge and be done with it already.

[Catastrophy]

**** boss battles. In all my gamer life has there ever been a good one? I only remember annoying ****. I could do without.

[Chealec]

It was a lot of fun. People who can't separate realism or whatever from fun don't seem to like it and most boss battles. Why doesn't she just run away, why are her shields so strong? I just don't care.

...

 

No I didn't like the Vasir fight because it was tedious and because your squadmates are too dumb-as-nails to not spend most of it dirtnapping.

 

teleport/charge > cover > pew pew pew > teleport/charge > cover > pew pew pew ... maybe get Liara (if she's not down) to lob the odd singularity to break up the monotony

 

... oooh drones ... cover > pew pew pew > cover > pew pew pew

 

aaaaand we're back to teleport/charge > cover > pew pew pew

 

 

Bosses generally follow a set pattern and, once you've spotted it, it's just a grind of whittling away their health and hoping you don't screw up and have to go all the way back to the start... might as well just be an exercise in pressing the Spacebar when you hear a "bing" noise. Sometimes they might change that pattern part way through the fight - now you have to press W when you hear a bing. Bleh.

[Fade9wayz]

No I didn't like the Vasir fight because it was tedious and because your squadmates are too dumb-as-nails to not spend most of it dirtnapping.

 

teleport/charge > cover > pew pew pew > teleport/charge > cover > pew pew pew ... maybe get Liara (if she's not down) to lob the odd singularity to break up the monotony

 

... oooh drones ... cover > pew pew pew > cover > pew pew pew

 

aaaaand we're back to teleport/charge > cover > pew pew pew

 

 

Bosses generally follow a set pattern and, once you've spotted it, it's just a grind of whittling away their health and hoping you don't screw up and have to go all the way back to the start... might as well just be an exercise in pressing the Spacebar when you hear a "bing" noise. Sometimes they might change that pattern part way through the fight - now you have to press W when you hear a bing. Bleh.

At this point you can erase every battle from the game. Each enemy obeys to a set pattern. Once you learn it, you just have to counterit in the limit of the game's possibilities.

[In Exile]

HP systems are usually supposed to be an abstract reflection of the players and enemies combat skill not your ability to absorb bullets. It's turning hits into near misses and as the fight wears you down eventually the hits get closer and closer till you get a final fatal blow. It thematically works better in table top games as its all head canon. But when your visual on the tv screen is you unloading 15 clips into a dude at point blank range it falls apart. Saren kind of worked as I could accept that his flying surfboard thing may have included a powerful shield generator.

That being said people want boss battles. 2 shots taking out the boss would be anticlimactic. And I really don't see many options outside hps. More goons? Only split second visuals of the boss so you don't have the time to destroy his shields? Better AI won't do it. It helps the overall fighting system but the boss would still drop in a second once he pokes his head out to concentrated fire and power usage.

 

As you say, that works when you're not visually displaying hits, but the problem is that HP has turned into actually being damaged and being unaffected by it. DA:I's idea of armour and barrier is actually a step in the right direction re: how HP should work. Really, IMO, what you need is a system like that combined with what Fallout does with body parts (and damage thereto) but with a much, much lower HP threshold (e.g. 1/2 hits cripples an arm or leg). 

 

To me, the problem with bosses isn't their being an HP sponge unless the boss is the same type of creature as you. A reaper with 9999999 HP? Sure. But a random human mook? It's stupid. 

[Chealec]

At this point you can erase every battle from the game. Each enemy obeys to a set pattern. Once you learn it, you just have to counterit in the limit of the game's possibilities.

 

Yes but a dozen mooks will have more interesting diversity than a single boss ... and they're generally not bullet sponges that you have to whittle down.

 

 

For example (sorry to use TW3 again but I've been playing the Heart of Stone expansion recently):

 

Groups of Arachnomorphs and Fallen Knights in TW3:HoS expansion are far more challenging, and fun, to deal with than say a high-level Archgriffon. The Archgriffon you just watch it, dodge occasionally or shoot it with your crossbow when it's airborne then hack and slash when it's crashes to ground.

 

Arachnomorphs are speedy buggers, try to hit one and the others will swarm you. As soon as you focus on one it backs off whilst the others lob webs or flank you... get about 6 of them and it's really frantic.

 

The Fallen Knights have rushers, shield-bearers, guys with massive hammers and archers. Dodging arrows (unless you've enhanced your armour with Deflection) whilst sidestepping the rushers in the hope of being able to draw the faster units from the slower, to get in position to take out the archers... then the rushers... all the time trying not too expend all your stamina so you can flatten people with Aard or activate Quen.

 

Honestly in TW3 I take more damage from mobs than just about anything else in the game - including Eredin and Caranthir - and the fights are generally more frantic, chaotic and fun.

 

 

Or take that crappy "Defend the Tower" fight in Mass Effect 2... the first wave, with the Scions and abominations is by far the hardest (that's a nasty combination to throw at you); once you've got to the Praetorian (third wave) it's just a matter of circling the map and shooting it until it goes into regen mode - rinse and repeat.

[Fade9wayz]

Yes but a dozen mooks will have more interesting diversity than a single boss ... and they're generally not bullet sponges that you have to whittle down.

 

 

For example (sorry to use TW3 again but I've been playing the Heart of Stone expansion recently):

 

Groups of Arachnomorphs and Fallen Knights in TW3:HoS expansion are far more challenging, and fun, to deal with than say a high-level Archgriffon. The Archgriffon you just watch it, dodge occasionally or shoot it with your crossbow when it's airborne then hack and slash when it's crashes to ground.

 

Arachnomorphs are speedy buggers, try to hit one and the others will swarm you. As soon as you focus on one it backs off whilst the others lob webs or flank you... get about 6 of them and it's really frantic.

 

The Fallen Knights have rushers, shield-bearers, guys with massive hammers and archers. Dodging arrows (unless you've enhanced your armour with Deflection) whilst sidestepping the rushers in the hope of being able to draw the faster units from the slower, to get in position to take out the archers... then the rushers... all the time trying not too expend all your stamina so you can flatten people with Aard or activate Quen.

 

Honestly in TW3 I take more damage from mobs than just about anything else in the game - including Eredin and Caranthir - and the fights are generally more frantic, chaotic and fun.

 

 

Or take that crappy "Defend the Tower" fight in Mass Effect 2... the first wave, with the Scions and abominations is by far the hardest (that's a nasty combination to throw at you); once you've got to the Praetorian (third wave) it's just a matter of circling the map and shooting it until it goes into regen mode - rinse and repeat.

Ah, then we just have a different appreciation. I found the mooks tedious actually in ME2. Find cover, shoot, wait for the next one, rinse and repeat. Not that different from bosses, but at least those made me run around some. Not that it wasn't fun in its own way, ME2 was a bit more unforgiving than ME3 when you made mistakes, or got stuck to a wall thanks to the omnibutton.

 

I haven't played TW3 yet, still in the middle of TW2, so I don't know how similar they are. I tend to spam the power that takes control of other mobs (Ysni or something) and throw lotsa grenades. Takes care of mob crowds like a charm so far. That trivialises that sort of fights.

[Kroitz]

More people need to play shadow of the colossus, it's boss battle the game.

 

[Ahglock]

As you say, that works when you're not visually displaying hits, but the problem is that HP has turned into actually being damaged and being unaffected by it. DA:I's idea of armour and barrier is actually a step in the right direction re: how HP should work. Really, IMO, what you need is a system like that combined with what Fallout does with body parts (and damage thereto) but with a much, much lower HP threshold (e.g. 1/2 hits cripples an arm or leg).

To me, the problem with bosses isn't their being an HP sponge unless the boss is the same type of creature as you. A reaper with 9999999 HP? Sure. But a random human mook? It's stupid.

I just accept it as a flaw of the medium. The system just isn't strong enough to display/react so the enemy is dodging each attack ir grabbing cover at just the right moment. It's pure fantasy head canon but it works for me.

[Ahglock]

No I didn't like the Vasir fight because it was tedious and because your squadmates are too dumb-as-nails to not spend most of it dirtnapping.

teleport/charge > cover > pew pew pew > teleport/charge > cover > pew pew pew ... maybe get Liara (if she's not down) to lob the odd singularity to break up the monotony

... oooh drones ... cover > pew pew pew > cover > pew pew pew

aaaaand we're back to teleport/charge > cover > pew pew pew


Bosses generally follow a set pattern and, once you've spotted it, it's just a grind of whittling away their health and hoping you don't screw up and have to go all the way back to the start... might as well just be an exercise in pressing the Spacebar when you hear a "bing" noise. Sometimes they might change that pattern part way through the fight - now you have to press W when you hear a bing. Bleh.

I'll give you that it was a fairly easy pattern. I still liked it quite a bit as it was the first time it felt we were fighting a biotic when fighting a biotic. Warp spam just didn't cut it.

I wish if in me3 once your shields dropped biotics would try to lift/throw you. And you needed to dodge to avoid as cover can be arced around.

People can like/hate any fight for a variety of reasons. But I hate the realism complaints when they pertain to decisions or overall success chances. I've too frequently read people complaining about a fight modeled on historic events as it wasn't realistic enough. Their definition of realistic would be a boring action game. Decent tactical or maybe stealth game but crappy action.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Boss battles? That's so video gamey.

That's genuinely my complaint.

[Sylvius the Mad]

People can like/hate any fight for a variety of reasons. But I hate the realism complaints when they pertain to decisions or overall success chances. I've too frequently read people complaining about a fight modeled on historic events as it wasn't realistic enough. Their definition of realistic would be a boring action game. Decent tactical or maybe stealth game but crappy action.

That might explain why I don't like action games.

But realism, when people mention it, usually means realism within the confines of the game world's reality.

So enemy biotics should be able to throw you. And there shouldn't be such a wild power disparity between the protagonist and generic guards unless there's a lore-based explanation for it.

People who call for realism are often just objecting to lore-gameplay segregation.

[Dabrikishaw]

Boss fights would be great in Andromeda. I liked the Vasir and Shadow Broker fights in Mass Effect 2.

[Laughing_Man]

More people need to play shadow of the colossus, it's boss battle the game.

 

The most depressing game ever? No thanks.

[Chealec]

Ah, then we just have a different appreciation. I found the mooks tedious actually in ME2. Find cover, shoot, wait for the next one, rinse and repeat. Not that different from bosses, but at least those made me run around some. Not that it wasn't fun in its own way, ME2 was a bit more unforgiving than ME3 when you made mistakes, or got stuck to a wall thanks to the omnibutton.

 

I haven't played TW3 yet, still in the middle of TW2, so I don't know how similar they are. I tend to spam the power that takes control of other mobs (Ysni or something) and throw lotsa grenades. Takes care of mob crowds like a charm so far. That trivialises that sort of fights.

 

I tend to move around more when facing mooks than bosses weirdly... especially in ME2/3 play-throughs that I've done after playing ME3:MP. Too much Krogan time in MP; running around shooting and nutting everything ... and therein lies my problem with bosses again, you can't headbutt Banshees In ME3:MP Banshees and Atlases are actually just about the epitome of everything I hate about boss fights.

 

 

TW2 and TW3 are pretty similar in combat mechanics - but in TW3 they've (thankfully) brought back the ability to chug potions in combat so if you screw up you can quickly jump back and drop a White Raffard's Decoction or a Swallow potion. They both use upgradeable fluid twitchy swordplay but it's just a bit more refined in TW3 with a slightly more flexible skill/mutagen tree (though it's also slightly more restrictive in some ways).

 

In TW3 I actually find Aard more useful than Axii (the mind control sign) for crowd control, a downed enemy can be hit with a finishing move to skewer them to the floor... but odds are you will have some points in Axii since it opens additional conversation options, you might not in Aard.