56 réponses à ce sujet

[akbogert]

Yeah I read a little bit from that too to understand it better but I still don't at least not to the full. Yet there are people who dislike Sera and there is always a reason behind something like that. I mean she's not dumb she knows what she does, but I think there are people who just don't like the way she does it. Maybe because they think the situation is just too serious for her shenanigans or maybe because she likes to jump to conclusions. 

Surely here are many who just don't get what's behind all the childishness but I believe that's not the entire Sera-disliking thing

 

Oh, I understand not liking Sera. I try (though it tends to get swallowed up in my argumentation) to always qualify what I say. Not everyone who hates Sera does so without having given her a chance. Some people have gone through all the friendship and romance and still don't like her. That's just the way things are. But there's a difference between not liking her, and saying she's vapid/has no characterization/motivations/intelligence. The latter is impossible if you actually interact with her character sufficiently. 

[Evamitchelle]

Sera apparently thinks the veil is a person "The Veil has grit in it's breeches here." and other similar remarks. Tell her it's not that simple and, she gets mad and insists that it is. No matter what it is, if she doesn't like it, an arrow is her only response. She won't see the big picture, I assume she is incapable of anything but the most simplistic view of anything.

 

It's a joke... ? She's basically making fun of Solas, who says stuff like 'the Veil is strange here'. The other companions recognize these comments as jokes, and some of them continue it in Jaws of Hakkon by saying the Veil is warbly/squeaky/spicy/wiggly instead. Solas just sighs. I have no idea how you could come to the conclusion that Sera thinks the Veil is an actual person from those comments. 

[Wulfram]

By Gaider's standards Scrappy Doo, Jar Jar Binks and Wesley Crusher were great characters.

Inspiring negative emotions can be good, but sometimes the negative emotions are caused by being annoyed at bad writing, or tired of having the boring character occupy the screen.

[ComedicSociopathy]

Would just like to point out that Dorian's primary aim is to get rid of corruption, such as use of blood magic behind the scenes, in Tevinter not freeing the slaves.   His actions could have the additional benefit of Magisters getting a conscience about slavery (though I doubt it).   More likely it will just make life better for slaves, particularly elven ones, because they will not be seen as useful tools for magical experiments.      

 

Right that's true. I just assumed that Dorian would eventually add the abolition of slavery in his reformist goals when DA 4 comes around. Might not happen but after his character growth in Inquisition I can't imagine that he'd still remain blind to the injustice of slavery. 

 

 

My problem with Solas is that I feel they went too far in making him the anti-hero.    He has all these great speeches in the main game, which while making him appear arrogant (as befits his name), at least I could identify with and he is constantly approving when you help all the little people but then to turn it around so completely in Trespasser so that he comes off as a complete and utter hypocrite is really annoying.   Apparently I was helping all these people so they could have a few years relative peace before he pulls the plug on them so he doesn't have to think of himself as a monster.    Then I am asked to choose whether or not I wish to redeem him.    I am not generally given to swearing in real life but the expletives were coming thick and fast over that one.    The guy has just admitted to me he always wanted to destroy the world to restore a minority group of people that have been slumbering for the last several thousand years while their descendants have been suffering for his actions (I am an elf) and I am meant to be worrying about his soul?   Talk about getting your priorities wrong.   To make matters even worse, the writer admitted that they put in the Solas romance (who are the majority of those who want to redeem Solas) in order to gain more sympathy for his character.       If he has redeeming qualities that make you want to do so, these should stand on their own without trying to emotionally manipulate me.  

 

I know right? This had me laughing hard. 

 

 

 

I agree with Shiara Lavellan, please can we have one genuine freedom fighter and champion for the elves that we don't have to feel ashamed of.    (Shartan is my hero but I have a nasty feeling they are going to destroy that one for me at some point).   I'd also like the opportunity for my PC to do something for their situation that lasts.    Regardless of choices made, the rebel mages have their freedom at the end of DAI, which means the world is different to how it began.   So in the future I'd like to be able to free all the slaves or at least improve the lot of the city elves throughout Thedas (or even in just one country), without having my achievements wiped out in the following game (or DLC).   

 

Briala and her possible success in Orlais don't count? 

[akbogert]

Right that's true. I just assumed that Dorian would eventually add the abolition of slavery in his reformist goals when DA 4 comes around. Might not happen but after his character growth in Inquisition I can't imagine that he'd still remain blind to the injustice of slavery. 

 

It's nice to imagine so, though I'm not sure that's supported by conversations in the game per se. When I've confronted Dorian about slavery in the past, he has argued fairly strongly that the depraved conditions he sees for the poor and destitute in Orlais and Ferelden are at least as evil as depriving someone of real autonomy. Which is probably the worst thing about Dorian, for me -- the "slavery is fine if slaves are fed and sheltered" argument is a particular brand of nasty -- but it does sort of flesh him out as still a product of Tevinter. I don't know if there are later conversations that indicate his views have changed? 

[ComedicSociopathy]

It's nice to imagine so, though I'm not sure that's supported by conversations in the game per se. When I've confronted Dorian about slavery in the past, he has argued fairly strongly that the depraved conditions he sees for the poor and destitute in Orlais and Ferelden are at least as evil as depriving someone of real autonomy. Which is probably the worst thing about Dorian, for me -- the "slavery is fine if slaves are fed and sheltered" argument is a particular brand of nasty -- but it does sort of flesh him out as still a product of Tevinter. I don't know if there are later conversations that indicate his views have changed? 

 

No your right there isn't any from what I can remember, but having him fight against blood magic in Tevinter but sheepishly allow slavery to continue would be awkward for a character that's supposed to have to come to some realization about the major issues of his country. That said, it would be an interesting dynamic that would create some good tension with Dorian and a new PC. 

[DarkAmaranth1966]

It's a joke... ? She's basically making fun of Solas, who says stuff like 'the Veil is strange here'. The other companions recognize these comments as jokes, and some of them continue it in Jaws of Hakkon by saying the Veil is warbly/squeaky/spicy/wiggly instead. Solas just sighs. I have no idea how you could come to the conclusion that Sera thinks the Veil is an actual person from those comments. 

Well, I don't take it that way, I take it the same as I take people calling cars and trucks "he or she" rather than it - they think the vehicle is a person and, that isn't very intelligent.  People talk, breathe, have a pulse vehicles, the veil nor any non living thing does not. I can understand giving a beloved pet human qualities it lacks, at least it is alive and somewhat resembles a humanoid but, an object like a car, magical barrier, etc - no that doesn't make sense. Believing that just shows you either choose to sound stupid or, actually are that stupid.

 

Yes I've befriended her enough to get the cookies on the roof and, I still find her utterly unintelligent and, unwilling to see any perspective beyond her simple "Put an arrow in shite." view. You'd all think me stupid if my solution to everything form burning diner to a flat tire to being mugged on the street was "Shoot it with a gun." yet Sera isn't stupid for having that exact solution?

[ComedicSociopathy]

 

Yes I've befriended her enough to get the cookies on the roof and, I still find her utterly unintelligent and, unwilling to see any perspective beyond her simple "Put an arrow in shite." view. You'd all think me stupid if my solution to everything form burning diner to a flat tire to being mugged on the street was "Shoot it with a gun." yet Sera isn't stupid for having that exact solution?

 

Well, since she actually doesn't do any of those things and is willing to come up and accept  plans that don't involve attack, attack, attack, then perhaps I might you out on being unwilling to accept a perspective other then your own. 

[Gervaise]

Dorian always knew there was something wrong with his country; it is just that he has now been inspired to actually do something about it rather than just criticise.   He admits that for slavery he didn't even think about it until he came south, so it seems to me that his reasoned argument in favour of slavery was as a result of thinking about it.   That was one conversation that was really written for a human Inquisitor though because to say that a Carta dwarf, a Tal-Vashoth mercenary or a Dalish elf know nothing of being poor is a bit of a insult.    In fact he admits he doesn't even know anything about Dalish because they don't go to Tevinter.    He never makes it clear what he means about being treated poorly means either.    The message from Corypheus' slave in the Fade says that he had always been a decent master right up until the point where he decided to engineer the massive blood sacrifice.   Back in DA2 the little slave girl is so confused about Hadriana sacrificing her father because clearly she and him had been treated well in the past.    Somewhere else it is suggested that treating a slave badly means the master beats them.   

 

Dorian knows that the Imperium would fall apart without the slaves.    He would also know that when a previous Archon tried to abolish slavery, he was promptly assassinated.    When Solas says to him "If you truly feel sorry about the past, then free the slaves of all races," Dorian's reply is  that he is not sure he can do that.   This is probably true both from his own personal ability to do so and because of the affect on his beloved country.    I love Dorian but the slave issue is one that still in the background as something he needs to address.    The only thing that gives me hope is that when Calpurnia sets out her agenda for the rebirth of Tevinter, if you let her go Dorian approves and says that Tevinter could do with more like her.    Now she is against the corruption in Tevinter but her primary goal is to free all the slaves and make them full citizens of the Imperium, so hopefully he shares that goal now too.

 

As for Briala being a champion of the elves, I'd feel more comfortable with that if she hadn't left the Dalish clan to be ripped apart by a demon.   Celene lied, the Keeper wasn't necessarily going to kill them, he just didn't particularly want to help them.    Mind you I blame Felassan more for letting Michel break the binding circle since he knew full well what would happen (but then like Solas he always had his own agenda and had probably been manipulating that clan for years but unfortunately for them they had outlived their usefulness).     Also she didn't claim the eluvians on behalf of all elves, just those in Orlais.   Still I'll grant you that was a start in the right direction, even though it will all be for nothing now since Solas took back the eluvian network  and the dissolution of the Inquisition as a significant power (even if you didn't totally disband it) will likely mean that any gains for the elves will be reversed.      I must admit that before Trespasser I was hoping that we might be able to use the eluvians for an underground network helping slaves in Tevinter.   Sadly that is not to be.    Still I did help Briala as much as I could.

[nightscrawl]

Do you have any companion that you insanely dislike?

No, and I haven't across all three games. If I have a dislike for a companion, like Vivienne, I just limit my interactions with them and that's it. Only once have I gone so far as to not recruit someone, and that is because I was able to come up with a plausible RP reason for doing so.

There have been some posts over the years where people proclaimed their desire to kill whichever person, and then their immense satisfaction when they were able to, such as at the end of DA2 when certain followers have the chance to turn on you. I just have to shrug at that and say, "OK then, you do you and have fun."

[Tigress M]

I sit back and read all of these posts and just smile.  The fact that we've got people in here spending time attacking or defending a DAI companion just goes right back to my OP - there are some really well written characters in DAI because they elicit discussions just like this.  

 

So, in the spirit of things, I'll lay out my opinions about my Advisors and Companions.  Feel free to disagree with me - that's part of the fun of it all!

 

Leliana - Doesn't hold a lot of interest for me.  Wasn't crazy about her in DAO, was confused by her cameo in DA2 (though now I understand it), and she doesn't quite fit Varric's description of what makes a good spymaster so I guess you could say she still confuses me.  However, I am vested enough to dislike her during In Hushed Whispers so perhaps I'd enjoy a darker Leliana?  Not sure.

 

Josie - Like her but there's no big attraction to her.  She's the weakest of the 3 advisors but I also realize part of that is because she's new to us whereas the others are not.  

 

Cullen - I have deep respect for him and would still have that even if he weren't romanceable and therefore wasn't my LI 90% of the time.  I regret the contradiction presented in the epilogue slides of DAO vs the reality of DA2 but then so does Gaider.  As he said, they learned the hard way not to write themselves into a box like that.  But, even though I'm not a huge fan of DA2, I really like how they took his "A-HA!" moment when he realizes Meredith isn't in the right and used that as the groundwork for his joining the Inquisition.  Could his story be better?  Oh sure.  But I understand the confines of a game and the resources available and like what they did with him and his dealing with his Lyrium addiction.  

 

Cassandra - "Pretend you don't know this about me."  -- it's lines like these that endear me to her.  As a woman, I love how well rounded she is.  We're complicated creatures and she conveys that complication quite well.  In RL, I'm in upper management and as such, I spend my day looking at the big picture, making tough decisions, and juggling a multitude of details.  But when it's over, I want to get swept off my feet by Cullen, or chatter like a schoolgirl to my husband, or go kill some monsters in an MMO Raid.  Somedays I know exactly what must be done and how to accomplish it and other days I find myself floundering and very thankful for the friends and family I have around me to help me find my way.  Cassandra portrays all of these things that make strong women strong and she does it beautifully, imho.  

 

Blackwall - I feel betrayed by him.  Every time.  Even though I usually pardon him (and I always recruit him) he angers me because he tells me he's 100% committed to our cause but not enough to come clean when we need it most during the Warden investigation.  Yeah, it wouldn't change anything but I do not like to be led on and that's what I feel he does to me up until Revelation.

 

Iron Bull - Used to be indifferent but since I saw his betrayal in Trespasser, that's grown into dislike.  All the "I won't do anything to jeopardize the Inquisition" is BS and I do not like being lied to.  

 

Varric - Love him for a kind of odd reason.  I imagine him as Gaider due to the whole writing thing and I have a huge affinity for him because I'm an amateur writer and can really relate to some of the things he says about writing.  In DAI, that love grows when his walls come down a bit and he lets you help him with his grief over Hawke.

 

Sera - I wonder what really goes on in her head, but it doesn't keep me up at night.  I'm rather indifferent to her like I was indifferent to Merrill.  Not sure any amount of "better" writing would change that though - I just don't find people like her interesting.  

 

Cole - Like him but he doesn't fit in DAI for me.  I love trying to make sense of what he says but I'm not crazy about his place in this story.  

 

Dorian - Love him as a friend, bored me to tears as a LI.  Apparently I prefer M/M relationships when they're identical to M/F ones since the ONLY thing that kept me coming back to DA2 was my male Hawke and Fenris relationship.  But as a friend, Dorian is wonderful and I'm always disappointed when he runs out of things to say to me!

 

Vivienne - Hate her.  Used to just not care about her but when she stole the Divine's seat out from under Cassandra in a recent playthrough, that turned to true hate.  Now, every word she says feels like nails on a Chalkboard.  So yes, she's very well written.

 

Solas - Hate him.  Didn't like him much before Trespasser but it migrated to hate when again, I realized his whole life was a lie.  Interestingly, this makes the camp scene between Haven and Skyhold even more moving for me.  That song was my hook into DAI but now I get that song and then the face of my betrayer and it just cuts to the bone.  He's the reason we're in those freaking mountains and why I have this stupid mark that is going to kill me some day and when I look at him in that scene, I truly break down and cry.  So, hats off to Gaider on that one for taking the most moving scene in the game for me and making it even more potent once I learned Solas's true agenda.

[vbibbi]

By Gaider's standards Scrappy Doo, Jar Jar Binks and Wesley Crusher were great characters.

Inspiring negative emotions can be good, but sometimes the negative emotions are caused by being annoyed at bad writing, or tired of having the boring character occupy the screen.

How did you know my OTP threesome?! I devour that fanfic!

Seriously though, I agree that strong reaction is better than none at all, but it becomes a pitfall for writers if they write a character solely to try to elicit a reaction from readers/players. They should primarily write a realistic, well rounded character with authentic goals and motivations, and through this depiction resonate with some fans and rankle others.

I've already written in other threads, but some of the characters in DAI seem to have been written deliberately to irritate people rather than to be well rounded characters. Vivienne is the prime example of this, as she is written to be very hard to like, even though there could have been rational reasons to enjoy her. She is abrasive and no nonsense, but she could have had deeper characterization than the flat politician we get. She seems more like a charicature of a power hungry Mage politician than a person. I envision the writers planning her out and saying "okay, she is really going to ****** off most of our fans! How else can we make her unpopular?"

[bEVEsthda]

I truly did read your first post - sorry if you feel like I didn't.    

 

Oh, don't get me wrong, I WANT my character to succeed.  I want to save the world and live happily ever-after.  But, I don't want that assumed as a given from the beginning or all the hours I spend in the game mean nothing to me.  I know when I play a BioWare game that it's possible to wind up somewhere I don't want to be so it makes my choices all the more important to me.  So no, I'm telling you the exact opposite.  And yeah, I like things ending imperfectly even though I WANT that fairy-tale conclusion.  Why?  Because they feel more "real", I guess.  At the end of the day, my Warden and my Inquisitor feel like real people.  I'm not sure I'd feel the same if I hadn't allowed a OGB to be created or still had my arm (and all my friends).  

 

What about you?  Do you want to always know you're going to save the day, get the girl (or in my case boy), and come out unscathed?  And if so, what motivates you to play?  It sounds to me like you enjoy a different genre of game so I'm curious what draws you and presumably keeps you playing BioWare games if it's not the story and the chance that we can royally mess things up.  

 

Good. Good.

But then you do play to win, don't you? Just as i said, it's in the structure. There's no point to do anything, strive for anything, make any choice at all, if it's all meaningless, like ME3. Or rendered meaningless.

 

Look at what I was complaining about. I wasn't complaining about DA:O and OGB, was I? No, I clearly remember I specifically said it was the best game ending Bioware have ever done. And I said I could even be kinda okay with Trespass, that it was just ominous, in regard of some other things Bioware have pulled. It's like part of a worrying trend.

 

I also specifically said I wasn't talking about wedding bells and world before your feet. I'm not asking for fairy-tale conclusions.

I'm asking for not having to put up with BS like ME3, or having a protagonist I once played being miserably killed in a later canon.

And yes, I'm asking for the opportunity to win.  ...In some sense. Because I'm not going to play the game otherwise. It would be pointless. Everything about it would be pointless.

[Evamitchelle]

Well, I don't take it that way, I take it the same as I take people calling cars and trucks "he or she" rather than it - they think the vehicle is a person and, that isn't very intelligent.  People talk, breathe, have a pulse vehicles, the veil nor any non living thing does not. I can understand giving a beloved pet human qualities it lacks, at least it is alive and somewhat resembles a humanoid but, an object like a car, magical barrier, etc - no that doesn't make sense. Believing that just shows you either choose to sound stupid or, actually are that stupid.

 

Yes I've befriended her enough to get the cookies on the roof and, I still find her utterly unintelligent and, unwilling to see any perspective beyond her simple "Put an arrow in shite." view. You'd all think me stupid if my solution to everything form burning diner to a flat tire to being mugged on the street was "Shoot it with a gun." yet Sera isn't stupid for having that exact solution?

 

So by your logic Iron Bull thinks the Veil is food because he calls it spicy... ? 

[Qis]

I'm afraid I have to disagree. All of them have reasons for what they do and clear character traits which are the base for liking or not liking a character. In origins and in inquisition as well.

 

Characters of DA:O have multi-dimensions, but the later games only one dimension, example, Loghain is a war hero, well respected, he did something that we could hate him for, but he also have qualities that we could love him. Alistair have both reasons to love and hate him, a whiny guy, a man-child, he is a good person, but he's not really sincere with us. Leliana is an outright liar, but doesn't make her a bad person either. Morrigan with all her mysteriousness and evil looking, but does she evil? Sten have a weird point of view about life, we could agree or disagree with, he's a murderer but he also regret and willingly to get punished. Wynne is an old nagging mage, a Chantry supporter, we could love or hate her with her views about magic and religion, about morality, about her being busy body.....And so other characters, they all have something that we could love or hate them

 

But in later game, Meredith is just someone we will hate from the begining and nothing about her that we could love. Fenris also have nothing that we could love other than his Japanese-cute look, he almost hate everything, he don't provide anything that could make us like that character. Merill want to repair an ancient mirror with Blood Magic, don't provide anything to argue about other than blood magic is okay or not. Anders motivation is clear, he's just a possessed psycho. Varric have nothing that could make us hate him. Aveline also have nothing that could make us hate her. Both Varric and Aveline are our friend, we don't hate our friend isn't it?

 

in DA:I, everyone are just neutral toward Inquisitor, your sentiment toward the cameos are your sentiment toward them in previous games. while new characters are just new and they are there just because you are the leader of the organization they are allied with. Some of them will provide things that you will hate them for with no redeeming quality, and some of them provide things you love without any reason to hate.

[NotSoDeepMushroomFarmer]

Characters of DA:O have multi-dimensions, but the later games only one dimension, example, Loghain is a war hero, well respected, he did something that we could hate him for, but he also have qualities that we could love him. Alistair have both reasons to love and hate him, a whiny guy, a man-child, he is a good person, but he's not really sincere with us. Leliana is an outright liar, but doesn't make her a bad person either. Morrigan with all her mysteriousness and evil looking, but does she evil? Sten have a weird point of view about life, we could agree or disagree with, he's a murderer but he also regret and willingly to get punished. Wynne is an old nagging mage, a Chantry supporter, we could love or hate her with her views about magic and religion, about morality, about her being busy body.....And so other characters, they all have something that we could love or hate them

 

But in later game, Meredith is just someone we will hate from the begining and nothing about her that we could love. Fenris also have nothing that we could love other than his Japanese-cute look, he almost hate everything, he don't provide anything that could make us like that character. Merill want to repair an ancient mirror with Blood Magic, don't provide anything to argue about other than blood magic is okay or not. Anders motivation is clear, he's just a possessed psycho. Varric have nothing that could make us hate him. Aveline also have nothing that could make us hate her. Both Varric and Aveline are our friend, we don't hate our friend isn't it?

 

in DA:I, everyone are just neutral toward Inquisitor, your sentiment toward the cameos are your sentiment toward them in previous games. while new characters are just new and they are there just because you are the leader of the organization they are allied with. Some of them will provide things that you will hate them for with no redeeming quality, and some of them provide things you love without any reason to hate.

 

Ugh.. I'm sorry I didn't want to make really long replies in the first place when I signed in here, because English is not my first language 

 

Anyway I still don't agree with you because there are enough people who actually like Merill, Fenris, Anders etc.. For example I personally really don't like Aveline. They all have character traits and views which are debatable. Aveline tries to be your friend and tries to support your actions and wants to be a good leader but she's just so straight to the point and doesn't let a little bit liveliness or fun into her daily activities.

I liked Anders from the start but at the end it was kind of disturbing. You think he's a psycho, maybe it's true, but I actually romanced him and I really like his intentions just his methods are really wrong. I like that he doesn't let the fate decide for him what comes true and what not and takes matters into his own hands although I hate it that he has to manipulate others to do what he wants (..apart from him killing hundreds) 

I'm one of the people who don't like Fenris.. well, because he is very very narrow-minded and doesn't want to think in the big picture (ahem, yeah Anders is similar, but you can actually change him) but there is this determination again that makes him appealing to others. He has seen bad things and wants no one to know how it feels to be a slave of a magister and naturally he wants to get his revenge

There's also Merill. She's very annoying but I think she's cute nonetheless. My sister is just like her. And she's also someone who can learn much at the end. She's really into blood magic but that's the point you can show her the consequences.

 

Well, of course the Inquisition characters have also character depth. But you know I think halfway through writing this I realised that the coming games are just based on character development. You can make so much out of it. When in Origins every character just kind of already was the way they are at the end, in the later games you can affect the characters much more so they are practically made for more than one playthrough. But I really love this decision of BioWare because it just shows how much you can change a person with your own acting. 

[Korva]

Speaking of tiresome. And speaking of one writing aspect where a litmus-test fails: Bioware have a curious tradition of not doing game endings well. The only game that had a well done ending is IMO DA:O. I thought that Bioware had finally understood how to do endings. But instead, Bioware immediately produced their usual mess for 'Awakening'. KotOR is okay'ish, but it's notable that they went out of their way and ruined it retroactively. Lately, they seem to go for defeat on a personal level, or even nothing accomplished (ME3).

 

Very well said, all in all.

 

This is one reason why the ME3 ending is such a disaster. It nullifies everything in the game. [...] It's just that I not only lost all interest but also resent the entire franchise.

 

I haven't played ME3 because I never could get into the series, but that is how I feel about Trespasser. I had equal parts hopes and fears for it, the latter being based on Bioware's history with endings and the treatment of the PCs, and it turned out to be a complete worst-case scenario for me. It's the culmination of pretty much every issue I've had with Bioware games ever since BG2.

 

There's has to be a sensible, positive middle ground somewhere between "unmitigated power trip" and "crapping all over the PC and everything they thought they accomplished". The problem as I see it, though, is that Bioware doesn't treat the PCs as actual characters to begin with, and want to make future games and tie-ins without being too bothered by diverging player choices. So instead of keeping their feet on the ground from the get-go and writing a low-key story that doesn't really impact their precious metaplot, they go arse over eyeballs for the world-shaking stuff ... and then immediately throw it all out again as far as PC influence is concerned.

 

I tend to dislike the "even bad reactions are good" view of writing (it's Marvel's philosophy in their comics, and there's a company that seems increasingly bent on trolling its own fan base).

 

[...]

But sometimes I see creators treating their ability to ****** people off as a matter of pride or some evidence of their talent, and I think that's preposterous. People have to care to be angry. You just have to be sure they're angry because you made them care, and not because they already cared and then you betrayed their emotional investment. Like, if everyone loves a character, and then you kill that character, saying "oh, everyone's angry because we killed that character off, so we did well" is stupid if it's used to justify the killing -- they loved the character already, you already succeeded as a writer. Taking things from players and using the extent to which they miss those things as a litmus test for your storytelling is... a pretty awful way to gauge storytelling. 

 

I want to put this in a dragonbone-studded silverite frame, written in letters the size of a barn door, and hang it somewhere all the writers can see, because it's so bloody true.
 

I'll focus on someone that made me delight in every encounter with her.

 

Cassandra. 

 

Agreed. Cassandra is absolutely awesome, and she remains untainted by Solas' big reveal, unlike my other big favourite (Cole). I fell for her from the moment I first saw her, despite the fact that "Tell me why we shouldn't kill you now" isn't exactly the friendliest of introductions. There was just something about her that made me feel that she'd be the best sister-in-arms-and-spirit I ever had in a Bioware game. And she delivered on that, over and over. Her friendship scene triggered as soon as I got to Skyhold, and left me grinning like a fool with delight.

[Dabrikishaw]

Gaider has said many times that the best compliment he can get is to hear that something moves us - good or bad.  Hearing how much someone hates a story or character is just as good as hearing how much they love it because it's the emotional investment that writers go for.  And he's right, imho.  

I want to agree with this but I can't because it feels like a cop out for...well any number of situations were the writing was off. "Oh you thought this character was annoying? Congrats, that's what was supposed to happen!" can feel like a really shallow pat on your own back.

 

When the reasons you dislike a character have nothing to do with developer intention, that's not the same as being moved by art. Hell you can dislike characters because of the way a developer intended for you to like them, as I've seen around these forums many times.

 

Not every companion in Inquisition will be liked by everyone here, but there are good reasons for that dislike or like that can be called art, and bad reasons that can be called sloppy writing. One is something to thanks writers for, the other only merits criticism.  

 

All I want to say is, this isn't a crystal clear thing. I'm not trying to say this topic is wrong though.

[Korva]

It's a joke... ? She's basically making fun of Solas, who says stuff like 'the Veil is strange here'. The other companions recognize these comments as jokes, and some of them continue it in Jaws of Hakkon by saying the Veil is warbly/squeaky/spicy/wiggly instead. Solas just sighs. I have no idea how you could come to the conclusion that Sera thinks the Veil is an actual person from those comments. 

 

Yep. I dislike Sera, but this feels like making up a reason to hate on her instead of recognizing it as the obvious and in-game- acknowleged trolling of Solas that it is. It's kind of like the collective ribbing Varric gets in Trespasser for whinging about everything and everyone all the time, and like that ribbing it's both true and not really meant in a mean-spirited way (if it wasn't, Cole wouldn't get in on it in both cases).

 

I've already written in other threads, but some of the characters in DAI seem to have been written deliberately to irritate people rather than to be well rounded characters. Vivienne is the prime example of this, as she is written to be very hard to like, even though there could have been rational reasons to enjoy her. She is abrasive and no nonsense, but she could have had deeper characterization than the flat politician we get. She seems more like a charicature of a power hungry Mage politician than a person. I envision the writers planning her out and saying "okay, she is really going to ****** off most of our fans! How else can we make her unpopular?"

 

And just as importantly, they should have balanced her difficult-to-like nature by actually being useful in the ways that she is supposed to be. She leads the loyalist mages -- so why can't we use them to close the Breach right away instead of running after the rebels or the templars (aside from the fact that there's clearly something fishy going on with both factions)? Why can't we use them for anything at all? Even a few more ambient NPCs in Skyhold and a war table mission or two would be better than nothing. She's the Court Enchanter and a big damn deal in politics -- so why does she have eff-all impact on the whole Halamshiral arc? Obvious answer: to force writers' pet Morrigan of us, which is also bad writing: ignoring the abilities of one character to push another into the spotlight. She has Chantry connections -- but the only thing they are used for is an attempt to hijack the Divine election, yet a female human mage PC is told that allowing the Inquistor to be Divine would equal selling out to Tevinter.

 

By not allowing her to do anything useful for the Inquisition while being so divisive and difficult as a person, it feels as if the writers basically gave players a carte blanche to gleefully hate all over her -- and disregard the entire "uncontrolled magic can be extremely dangerous" POV for which she is the sole spokesperson along with her, which also grinds my gears.

 

I don't know if there are later conversations that indicate his views have changed? 

 

Not really, which is my big beef with him (and I do like the character overall). He gets treated with kid gloves on this issue, and to a lesser extent on his necromancy as well. A necromancer PC has Cole going off on them, as much as he ever goes off on anyone, yet he never breathes a word to Dorian. Only one banter with Solas touches on the casual use and abuse of spirits much like mortal slaves are treated. The only indication that he might not be so pro-slavery anymore is the brief exchange with Cole in which Dorian chickens out of explaining to Compassion incarnate what a slave is.

[ModernAcademic]

Now, in DAI, the list of characters I hate is growing with every playthrough.  Here's my current list:

 

Vivenne - Her elitist attitude was always a bit annoying but every since she somehow wound up a Divine even though I was trying to make Cassandra Divine, her demeanor is grating on me more and more.  

 

Solas - Considering he's a total lie I find it harder and harder to deal with him.

 

Blackwall - Again, a total lie and the more I play the more this ticks me off.

 

Iron Bull - He turned on me!  

 

Jesus what the hell

 

Solas is not a total lie. He's truthful to his beliefs and his mission to save his people. They matter to him. Who is the Inquisitor to Solas? Some stranger who was involved in a thousand year affair. That's all.

 

Blackwall had no chance to redeem himself in the eyes of society. He HAD to assume a new identity if he wanted to pay for his sins or die by his own sword. 

 

As for Iron Bull, he only turns on you if you make him remain loyal to the Qun. So what did you expect? He's their agent. Between the Qun and the Inquisition, there's no doubt which one he'd follow once his loyalty has been finally established. You can therefore blame your Inquisitor's choice, not him.

 

 

All three companions grow on you and express their respect and admiration for you overtime. That doesn't mean they have to expose their darkest secrets to you when they could seriously compromise them and even place their lives in jeopardy.

 

 

 

Why is it people usually expect partners and friends to be 100% truthful to them? Don't they understand there's no such thing?

 

It's the people who love you the most that keep the darkest secrets from you. And not because they have a character flaw. Not every secret is bad. Sometimes, it's the only way to preserve yourself from injustice and far worse things.

 

People should be more tolerant. Everyone is imperfect, even those who don't seem so. Don't expect the impossible from others.

If you know someone who keeps deeply hidden secrets, try to understand why and help them. Don't be judgemental. They might need your help. Just as one day, your parents helped you when you were helpless as a kid to deal with an issue all by yourself.

 

 

(In spite of all that's said above, I like your sincere opinion. Nice thread! It shows how hate is not a bad thing, because it's proof of how Bioware can create the most awesome characters ever. Players can't love or hate what makes them feel indifferent.) 

[akbogert]

Blackwall had no chance to redeem himself in the eyes of society. He HAD to assume a new identity if he wanted to pay for his sins or die by his own sword. 

 

As for Iron Bull, he only turns on you if you make him remain loyal to the Qun. So what did you expect? He's their agent. Between the Qun and the Inquisition, there's no doubt which one he'd follow once his loyalty has been finally established. You can therefore blame your Inquisitor's choice, not him.

 

My thoughts more or less exactly regarding Bull. He has never betrayed me because I have never asked him to turn on his closest friends and comrades. Force him to do that, and you have zero justification for looking down on him for sticking to it down the road. 

 

As someone who deeply relates to Blackwall on a personal level re: having made a terrible choice and trying to do everything he can to redeem himself moving forward in life (and having fully owned up to and tried to atone for that choice too), the idea that someone would just dismiss him and consider him irredeemable is nigh unpalatable for me.

[DebatableBubble]

I'll admit to being perplexed by the excessive hatred some of the more minor (read: non-followers) characters engender. For example, I've seen significant vitriol leveled at Arl Eamon. While I intellectually understand some players' reasoning for the hatred after having read several posts about it, I don't really "get" it. To me to seems like wasted energy.
 
Then again, I rarely have very strong reactions to most of the characters, plots, or game events. But when I do, such as with my liking for Dorian, I really go insane over it/them.

Hear hear. And I honestly never understood the whole "Eamon is sexist" thing came from.

[Tigress M]

 

I want to agree with this but I can't because it feels like a cop out for...well any number of situations were the writing was off. "Oh you thought this character was annoying? Congrats, that's what was supposed to happen!" can feel like a really shallow pat on your own back.

 

My feeling is that annoyance isn't strong enough to merit claiming the writing is good.  But if you get to the point where you're emotionally invested enough to actually hate them, then yes, I still stand by my feeling that this is a sign of good writing. The reason I feel this way is that it takes just as much work to write either type of character.  The writer has to make the character with enough depth that we actually care - one way or another.  

 

The monster under the bed is annoying.  The monster under the bed that slowly slips his wet and slimy hand under the covers and caresses your calf becomes more than annoying because he's now becoming more than 2 dimensional.  

 

 

Jesus what the hell

 

Solas is not a total lie. He's truthful to his beliefs and his mission to save his people. They matter to him. Who is the Inquisitor to Solas? Some stranger who was involved in a thousand year affair. That's all.

 

Blackwall had no chance to redeem himself in the eyes of society. He HAD to assume a new identity if he wanted to pay for his sins or die by his own sword. 

 

As for Iron Bull, he only turns on you if you make him remain loyal to the Qun. So what did you expect? He's their agent. Between the Qun and the Inquisition, there's no doubt which one he'd follow once his loyalty has been finally established. You can therefore blame your Inquisitor's choice, not him.

 

 

All three companions grow on you and express their respect and admiration for you overtime. That doesn't mean they have to expose their darkest secrets to you when they could seriously compromise them and even place their lives in jeopardy.

 

 

 

Why is it people usually expect partners and friends to be 100% truthful to them? Don't they understand there's no such thing?

 

It's the people who love you the most that keep the darkest secrets from you. And not because they have a character flaw. Not every secret is bad. Sometimes, it's the only way to preserve yourself from injustice and far worse things.

 

People should be more tolerant. Everyone is imperfect, even those who don't seem so. Don't expect the impossible from others.

If you know someone who keeps deeply hidden secrets, try to understand why and help them. Don't be judgemental. They might need your help. Just as one day, your parents helped you when you were helpless as a kid to deal with an issue all by yourself.

 

 

(In spite of all that's said above, I like your sincere opinion. Nice thread! It shows how hate is not a bad thing, because it's proof of how Bioware can create the most awesome characters ever. Players can't love or hate what makes them feel indifferent.) 

 

Solas claims to not know anything about the orb or Cory or what caused the breach but what he tells Flemeth completely contradicts that, so I still stand by my "total lie".  

 

I agree with your feelings on Blackwall but I can't forgive him for waiting so long to come clean in light of the whole plot revolving around the Wardens.  So, as the player, I get angry when I hear the non-committal answers because I understand why he's giving them and I know he's pretending to be a Warden even though he didn't go through the sacrifices to actually become one.  I wouldn't feel as strongly about this if he was pretending to be a Templar or Brother because I haven't played a character that's been one of those.  Wardens hold a special place in my heart and he makes a mockery of "my" Order by pretending to be something he's not.  

 

And with Iron Bull, I don't care.  He told me he wouldn't do anything to hurt the Inquisition and then he turned on me.  I made the hard decision to go after an alliance that could help me defeat Cory and save the world and yes that cost a lot.  But if he didn't like it, he could have left.  Instead, he stays, pretends to care about me and BAM!  -- "Aren't you glad you didn't bring me along?  Sorry Boss." is all I get before he tries to kill me.  So yeah, that put him squarely in my hate column. lol

 

As for your question about being truthful, actually I do expect those I call friends to be truthful.  Mind you, I have very few people I actually call "friend" -- I have lots of acquaintances though.  Acquaintances I don't expect much from, that's why their acquaintances and not friends.  But by the time I get to the point where I consider you my friend, the BS needs to have taken a back seat.  

 

So, tying that back to my feelings about characters... Blackwall, for example, didn't come clean for me until AFTER I'd slept with him in my first playthrough.  That's way too late, imho.  

 

And thanks so much for understanding the spirit of this thread!  Just the fact that you took the time to tell me how much you disagree with my feelings shows how much of an impact these people have had on you, which translates to being well-written characters.  

[akbogert]

The monster under the bed is annoying.  The monster under the bed that slowly slips his wet and slimy hand under the covers and caresses your calf becomes more than annoying because he's now becoming more than 2 dimensional.  

 

 ...is this definitely hypothetical?

[Tigress M]

 ...is this definitely hypothetical?

 

Ha!

 

My thoughts more or less exactly regarding Bull. He has never betrayed me because I have never asked him to turn on his closest friends and comrades. Force him to do that, and you have zero justification for looking down on him for sticking to it down the road. 

 

As someone who deeply relates to Blackwall on a personal level re: having made a terrible choice and trying to do everything he can to redeem himself moving forward in life (and having fully owned up to and tried to atone for that choice too), the idea that someone would just dismiss him and consider him irredeemable is nigh unpalatable for me.

 

It's interesting with me and Iron Bull... back in DAO, I was definitely in the HATE Loghain camp.  All that BS about just trying to save his soldiers was just that to me... BS.  

 

But... while I'll never do it again in another playthrough, I had legitimate reasons for asking Bull to make such a huge sacrifice.  My Inquisitor really thought she needed to do this to help save the world.  She also let some Chantry folks die because she couldn't risk losing a lead on the Red Lyrium by diverting her soldiers and she chastised Leliana after Haven for pulling her scouts back, just like she went with the soldiers to the Temple instead of going up to look for missing scouts... and well, you get the idea.  

 

And as for Blackwall, I truly appreciate where you're coming from.  And for the record, I've only let him rot in jail once.  I give him a chance to redeem himself, but I can't forgive him for taking so long to come clean with me.