She does take her duties seriously however. She sacrificed herself in in hushed whispers without a 2nd thought. That alone is an indication. She would sacrifice everything personal if she knew it had at least chance of saving things greater than herself.
You seem to be misunderstanding what's in dispute. Leliana's willingness to sacrifice herself for others isn't in question.
Well name one of Leliana's goals that's not noble. You can't, because it doesn't exist.
The elimination of the mage security aparatus without a plan for a replacement beyond 'wing it.'
Serious social responsibility issue right there.
Us typing right now is privilege given to us by people who murdered the right people at the right time to give us this freedom ( a certain war comes to mind, *cough). Leliana's goals are the most Liberal and noble. She doesn't live in modern age with media and raised awareness. She lives in a time that absolutely no change happened without violence, ever. She will be judged for her actions in her own time, not to your modern comparisons. How is she different than Andraste? Everyone know how violent her rebellion was.
Ironically, both Cassandra and Leliana herself are examples of how changes and reforms are not dependent on bloody-murder Leliana.
You also seem to be misunderstanding my position on conflict. Not all deaths are murder. Leliana's killings are, not least because they are avoidable (by her own route) and unnecessary for reforms in general (as demonstrated by Casandra).
"The rights and protections of bigots and racists are as important as any other". Is it really? In a dark age society such as Thedas where stealing rice can get you hanged by complete official authority? Again you are making a modern comparison. She is as good as it gets in Thedas.
Are we judging Leliana on in-setting standards or real world principles?
If we are to judge Leliana only on her in-setting political realities, than she is neither a progressive or advancing civil rights because these concepts do not exist. She is making policy preferences, not equal rights, because the concept of equal rights does not exist in a world in which men (and women) are not created equal and no one believes they are. Leliana's preferences are personal desires, not a political philosophy. Likewise, the lack of political freedom is a given- it's not a racial issue, because human peasants are just as disenfranchised.
If we are to judge and applaud Leliana by meta-analysis of the modern Western liberalism- such as on the basis of rights, 'righteous violence,' and of course political freedom- then we should consistently judge, applaud, and condemn her on the standards of modern western liberalism. To do so otherwise would be a hypocritical, and ultimately self-serving, double standard.
Sadly, one of the lessons of modern liberalism is that if you don't protect and respect everyone's rights, they aren't actually rights. Their privileges bestowed upon favored or tolerated parties.
Whichever it is, do make up your mind, because your waffling is getting silly. You can not applaud Leliana from a position of western liberalism and then disclaim western liberalism as grounds to condemn her.
Its an outright rebellion. Unless you can form a citation that they were going to hug Leliana and kiss her goodbye, it very safe to assume harm was their intention. Leliana doesn't "thrive" on anything. The only personal feeling perhaps, is satisfaction she gets from helping people. She does transform Chantry into charity and helping others sort of organization instead of religious overlord dictating most aspects of people's lives.
Vivienne had a rebellion. Armies were marshalled, battles fought. Lelaiana has political infighting- not least because of how drastically she seeks to rewrite doctrine over other people rather than through other people (such as the Cassandra approach, and to a lesser extent unhardened Lelliana's appeals).
Leliana most certainly thrives in her environment. One of her consistent character traits across the series is that not only is she good at the Game, spywork, and dirty espionage, but she enjoys it. If you haven't noticed that, you haven't been paying attention. And she certainly benefits from it- considering that it not only sees her elevated to the role of one of the most powerful women in Thedas, but keeps her there.
Again modern comparison. You assume she has media or awareness of modern people and then go on judge her by saying "lowering yourself to opponent's level". What else she could do? There is reason hardened Leliana's ending is far more believable than softened one. Because what softened Leliana does is impossible to achieve in Thedas. There is simply no analogy you can refer to other those inside Thedas itself. By that standard, Leliana is a saint. (a bit of pun intended, but you get the point)
What else could Leliana do? She could do what Casandra does- carefully make reforms, avoid squandering legitimacy by making it by fiat, and not murdering your opponents or rewriting widely accepted rules by fiat so that you can get what you want.
Hardened Leliana's ending is no more believable than unhardened Leliana's ending, because neither are enduring successes. They are both remarkably short-term accomplishments, and both court instability and institutional decline for the Chantry as a whole.
And how do you know Leliana's way won't work? We know that she is going to continue Justinia's way. She is a true hero of Thedas, at least in people's eyes. Leliana is her legacy. We can judge her from here, but if people will revere her, I don't think our opinion really matters.
Whether Leliana's way ultimately works is irrelevant to the critique of her means, because her means could also not work. They could, in fact, backfire horribly and make things worse. Gambling is condemnable even if you win- success alone doesn't validate any approach.
Neither, for that matter, does the appeal of the masses. There's a reason that's a logical fallacy.
End results are non-falsifiable until they actually occur. Unless you intend to argue that we should only talk about proven and enduring successes- in which case Leliana has none- Leliana potentially succeeding is only as relevant as Leliana potentially failing. What matters is the supporting arguments as to why.
Its clearly mentioned Chantry is transformed into charity and improving people's lives. This is not mention any other divine candidates epilogues.
You know what charities don't do? Determine social conditions of nations. Setting up charities in alienages doesn't change that there are alienages.
The Chantry does not dictate policy across Thedas no matter who the Divine is. The only people it can directly influence the status of are it's own- which is as irrelevant to most of Leliana's favored populations as the Grey Wardens are.
But is it? The fact remains the people who benefit from her reforms are the majority and those getting the short end of the stick are minority. Its a very good scenario if ends justify the means. It has always been a main theme in Bioware games. People will always die, no matter what you do. If we HAVE to choose, and we do, then let it be the bad apples who happen to be minority.
First off, Elves and mages are not the majority, they are the minority. Nor is Leliana in general, and bloody Leliana's in particular, the only way to even try to benefit them. There is no delimma between 'bloody murder Leliana or the elves are oppressed forever.' Or the mages, or charity. Not only does is the Divine's ability to change social realities limited, she isn't even the only one acting.
Second off, ends justifying the means is the problem that Leliana claims to be opposing.
It is, in fact, why she rededicates the Chantry to charity and away from politics- because letting politics trump principle, and letting the ends justify the means, is the mindset that brought about the Circle crisis and the corruption of the Chantry and the issues that every reformist goes 'yeah, that's a problem.' The institution of the faith being about politics and advancing personal interests, rather than the faith, was the problem.
There's a huge, blatant theme in Inquisition about how good intentions self-justify their corruption and undermine themselves because they justify it as for the greater good. You've already leapt well off into that.
Depends on who you name. Those on top of my mind made their countries better. Mind you many lost their way and forgot about good of people. Their pride changed them. This never happened with Leliana. In a society where change without violence doesn't exist, I see no real moral problem with Leliana. If she was in our time, I'd prosecute herself myself. But she isn't. In her own time, Leliana is a good and strong leader and has the capability to make her changes permanent. I cannot predict what Bioware will do with endings, but its likely Vivienne's ending will be sacrificed to match Leliana and Cassandra's endings who are quite similar to each other.
Since you're back to arguing on the basis of the real world, here's a question for you.
In what country can you think of a leader who achieved social acceptance for a popularly hated minority by murdering political rivals, maintaining an extensive personal spy network to spy, abduct, and occasionally torture dissidents, and attempting to establish a support base by largely detested client groups?
It's not enough to say 'the ruler was a bastard but made things better for most people.' You need to be able to point where a ruler made an unpopular group popularly accepted.
And let's not forget that Leliana's isn't even a decade into having power. Saying 'this never happened with Leliana' is premature- as is saying she is a good and strong leader. These are, after all, things that require retrospect and proven successes she does not have.
But ultimately, it comes down to your conviction that change can not occur without violence (despite both Cassandra and non-bloody Leliana being able to start reforms without resorting to murder), and your rather astounding conviction that Leliana's violence will both succeede and not have second and third order effects down the line.
I'm sure she's got it all planned out. She'll even be greeted as liberator.
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