Is Cass happy to serve Leliana even if she's hardened? What with Cassandra leaving in disgust if Vivienne is in charge, I figured she would too with hardened Leliana. Though we don't get any context for it, so I guess it might not be due to the ruthlessness.
Yes, cass is ok with divine Leliana regardless of being softened or hardened. Cass hates divine Viv because she is a tyrant and abuses the chant for her own ends.
While I have no doubt that Vivienne would do this, it's difficult to properly criticize her when Cassandra doesn't go into detail about the abuses that Vivienne apparently commits. Is her leashing of the templars going to far somehow? Is blatantly favoring Orlesian interests? Is she openly using her magic to intimidate her political enemies?
Who knows.
While I have no doubt that Vivienne would do this, it's difficult to properly criticize her when Cassandra doesn't go into detail about the abuses that Vivienne apparently commits. Is her leashing of the templars going to far somehow? Is blatantly favoring Orlesian interests? Is she openly using her magic to intimidate her political enemies?
Who knows.
She probably spent a quarter of the chantry budget on hats
(Though I don't know what Leliana's shoe and nug budget was)
edit: Its worth noting that Cassandra and Leliana both revere the previous divine - who had Leliana acting as her own assassin.
Jokes on her, Sera constantly puts fish in them.
I'll tell you something that Vivienne wouldn't do and that is order someone to undertake dangerous magical research without ensuring that the proper protections were in place. Justinia did that with Pharamond and many people suffered and died horribly as a result just because she wanted to keep it secret from the very people (Seekers/Templars) who would probably have ensured the safety of those people. I think Vivienne, as Divine, would also have looked into what was going on in Kirkwall a lot sooner, probably the moment she got a letter from a Templar suggesting that all mages in the Freemarches should be made Tranquil.
Whilst I prefer the other two to Vivienne as Divine, I have to admit I love the irony of the Chantry voting in a mage (as absurd as that idea is) and if Vivienne is as ruthless as Cassandra maintains then Dorian is right and it really does seem like Tevinter without the blood magic.
I'll tell you something that Vivienne wouldn't do and that is order someone to undertake dangerous magical research without ensuring that the proper protections were in place. Justinia did that with Pharamond and many people suffered and died horribly as a result just because she wanted to keep it secret from the very people (Seekers/Templars) who would probably have ensured the safety of those people. I think Vivienne, as Divine, would also have looked into what was going on in Kirkwall a lot sooner, probably the moment she got a letter from a Templar suggesting that all mages in the Freemarches should be made Tranquil.
Whilst I prefer the other two to Vivienne as Divine, I have to admit I love the irony of the Chantry voting in a mage (as absurd as that idea is) and if Vivienne is as ruthless as Cassandra maintains then Dorian is right and it really does seem like Tevinter without the blood magic.
Justinia kept it a secret for good reason. If Lambert had found out, he would have killed her and I do mean that quite literally. Lambert and the Seekers as a whole had become a very corrupt and frankly pretty vile organization, Cassandra notwithstanding.
Justinia kept it a secret for good reason. If Lambert had found out, he would have killed her and I do mean that quite literally. Lambert and the Seekers as a whole had become a very corrupt and frankly pretty vile organization, Cassandra notwithstanding.
If somone was corrupted it was Divine not Lambert her extreme stupidity and endanering other people aside ,also Lambert did found out and yet didn't killed her and he should considering she launched mage-templar war and betrayed Templars.
If somone was corrupted it was Divine not Lambert her extreme stupidity and endanering other people aside ,also Lambert did found out and yet didn't killed her and he should considering she launched mage-templar war and betrayed Templars.
So it was the Divine that knew how to reverse tranquility and said nothing. It was the Divine that hunted abominations while every member was an abomination themselves. So it was the Divine that tried to cover up this secret with MULTIPLE murders, and it was the Divine that started killing mages when they were holding a PERFECTLY VALID AND LEGAL vote.
Yep, that Divine sure had it coming.
Oh wait, that was Lambert that did all this........OOOPS.....
So it was the Divine that knew how to reverse tranquility and said nothing. It was the Divine that hunted abominations while every member was an abomination themselves. So it was the Divine that tried to cover up this secret with MULTIPLE murders, and it was the Divine that started killing mages when they were holding a PERFECTLY VALID AND LEGAL vote.
Yep, that Divine sure had it coming.
Oh wait, that was Lambert that did all this........OOOPS.....
So what that they knew how to reverse tranquility, in first place there was no need nor it was their job to inform public and/or mages about it.Second they can't be an abomnations becuase they aren't mages, abomination is possessed mage , it isn't even said they are possessed or are shown to pose threat to society because of ritual.At worst you can accuse them of using spirits and that is it.And i don't know about what murders you are talking about i hope it isn't about Cole murders.Also Lambert had full justification to start "kill" (or should i say imprison) mages considering said mages refused to hand over person that was suspected of murder, aside from fact that said gathering should be concerning entirely different matter than it was and that said vote was something that was concerning public safety.
Yes divine had it coming , she was one that caused mage-templar war by freeing mages that started rebellion despite Lambert prevented it.
So what that they knew how to reverse tranquility, in first place there was no need nor it was their job to inform public and/or mages about it.Second they can't be an abomnations becuase they aren't mages, abomination is possessed mage , it isn't even said they are possessed or are shown to pose threat to society because of ritual.At worst you can accuse them of using spirits and that is it.And i don't know about what murders you are talking about i hope it isn't about Cole murders.Also Lambert had full justification to start "kill" (or should i say imprison) mages considering said mages refused to hand over person that was suspected of murder, aside from fact that said gathering should be concerning entirely different matter than it was and that said vote was something that was concerning public safety.
Yes divine had it coming , she was one that caused mage-templar war by freeing mages that started rebellion despite Lambert prevented it.
Lord Seeker Lucius says otherwise. He makes it very clear that ANY person possessed by a spirit is an abomination. Mage not required. Also it was Lucius that murdered people and acted against the Divine (his then superior) and sabotaged a perfectly legal vote.
So no. You're flat wrong.
Lord Seeker Lucius says otherwise. He makes it very clear that ANY person possessed by a spirit is an abomination. Mage not required. Also it was Lucius that murdered people and acted against the Divine (his then superior) and sabotaged a perfectly legal vote.
So no. You're flat wrong.
They aren't abomnations (thus Lucius didn't know what he was talking about or was just going for shock value) as i said at worst they are possessed (what is never said) but were shown not pose any threat because of spirit.
Lucius was a member of another cult and became leader after Lambert death what lead to their fall.
Lambert admitted he was looking for any excuse to kill mages, confirming that there was never going to be peace with him in charge.
So? Not rly, there would be peace forced and maintained by fear but peace.
So? Not rly, there would be peace forced and maintained by fear but peace.
The mages weren't going to be cowed by fear and the Divine wasn't going to allow it and the Divine and the Mages were within their rights. So again, you're wrong.
They aren't abomnations (thus Lucius didn't know what he was talking about or was just going for shock value) as i said at worst they are possessed (what is never said) but were shown not pose any threat because of spirit.
Lucius was a member of another cult and became leader after Lambert death what lead to their fall.
Cassandra doesn't argue the point re Seekers are abominations when she reads the book, so it's not just Lucius. Also I will take the word of the writers via one of their in game experts (the Lord Seeker) over you.
The mages weren't going to be cowed by fear and the Divine wasn't going to allow it and the Divine and the Mages were within their rights. So again, you're wrong.
No?Im pretty sure they were (to the point 3 out of 5 fraternites voted to return and face harsh punishment) and it worked for 800 years , oh yes and divine support only fueled rebellion aside from fact she lead to it. So pretty sure im right, and argument "Mages freedom is right thing to do" doesn't even apply to argument that Lambert would be able to mantain peace if not divine stupidity.
Cassandra doesn't argue the point re Seekers are abominations when she reads the book, so it's not just Lucius. Also I will take the word of the writers via one of their in game experts (the Lord Seeker) over you.
That, isn't my only my word but also word of Lead writer (in case you failed to read what he wrote in my link) and also your claim isn't word of the writer only word of in-game character.So pretty much your position is very weak because you base your claim on game character when my claim is pretty strong as is confirmed by DG.
No?Im sure they pretty were (to the point 3 out of 5 fraternites voted to return and face harsh punishment) and it worked for 800 years , oh yes and divine support only fueled rebellion aside from fact she lead to it. So pretty sure im right, and argument "Mages freedom is right thing to do" doesn't even applies to argument that Lambert would be able to mantain peace if not divine stupidity.
That, isn't my only my word but also word of Lead writer (in case you failed to read what he wrote in my link) and also your claim isn't word of the writer only word of in-game character.So pretty much your position is very weak because you base your claim on game character when my claim is pretty strong as is confirmed by DG.
1) The vote was held and the independance won. Had Lambert not interfered it very well might not have. Regardless, LAMBERT was acting both illegally and immorally.
2) Apparently the lore changed (that seems to happen a lot in Dragon Age btw). What Lord Lucius said was very clear and much more recent than your tired quote from DG (who btw APPROVED that dialog by Lucius).
Edit PS: That quote from DG is from 2010. If it was any older or any more out of date, it would need carbon dating. The fact is that the Lore in Thedas has changed a lot since then, and this is apparently one of them (esp when you consider as I already said that DG was the lead writer of DAI that approved Lucius' dialog).
1) The vote was held and the independance won. Had Lambert not interfered it very well might not have. Regardless, LAMBERT was acting both illegally and immorally.
2) Apparently the lore changed (that seems to happen a lot in Dragon Age btw). What Lord Lucius said was very clear and much more recent than your tired quote from DG (who btw APPROVED that dialog by Lucius).
1) The vote once again came to play only because divine was corrupted and stupid if not her silly betrayal of templars there would no vote nor independance. Not rly , Lambert was acting legally perhaps immorally (what is up to individual own opinion what is moral and immoral) but immoral part is irrelevant.
2) You don't have proof to support that claim outside in-universe character claim , as far Lead writer and dragonage wiki (it is unofficial source pointing to many offical sources that support that claim like WoT) say that only possessed mage is an abomnation.Even if they changed lore, there is still a huge difference between abomnations they hunt and seekers even in matter not being threat to society what makes your point irrelevant.
1) The vote once again came to play only because divine was corrupted and stupid if not her silly betrayal of templars there would no vote nor independance. Not rly , Lambert was acting legally perhaps immorally (what is up to individual own opinion what is moral and immoral) but immoral part is irrelevant.
2) You don't have proof , outside in-universe character claim , as far Lead writer and dragonage wiki (it is unofficial source pointing to many offical sources that support that claim like WoT) say that only possessed mage is an abomnation.Even if they changed lore to there is still a huge difference between abomnations they hunt and seekers even in matter not being threat to society what makes your point irrelevant.
1. The Divine was acting within her rights. The Circle was not and wasn't supposed to be an arm of either the Chantry or the Templars (or Seekers). Divine Justinia knew that and knew that if there was going to be any chance at reconcilliation, she had to start recognizing the Circle's legal rights (which the Chantry and Seekers had trampled on for centuries). That is neither corrupt NOR stupid on the part of the Divine. Lambert otoh. Well Cole sums up Lambert very well when he called him Dark and Corrupt and needed to be ended. While I am not a fan of Cole, Cole is dead right (literally so).
2. Recency, recency, recency. It's very clear that the in-game expert (Lord Seeker Lucius) calls each and every Seeker an abomination and Cassandra who is our other in-game expert agrees with him. This supercedes any STALE quote from DG over five years ago especially when the recent dialog was APPROVED by the ame person that was the source of your stale quote. It makes the Lord Seekers from the start hypocrits (a point Cassandra understands very well even if you don't). It also means the Seekers violated their promise to the Last Inquisitor when they signed the Nevarran Accords.
1. The Divine was acting within her rights. The Circle was not and wasn't supposed to be an arm of either the Chantry or the Templars (or Seekers). Divine Justinia knew that and knew that if there was going to be any chance at reconcilliation, she had to start recognizing the Circle's legal rights (which the Chantry and Seekers had trampled on for centuries). That is neither corrupt NOR stupid on the part of the Divine. Lambert otoh. Well Cole sums up Lambert very well when he called him Dark and Corrupt and needed to be ended. While I am not a fan of Cole, Cole is dead right (literally so).
2. Recency, recency, recency. It's very clear that the in-game expert (Lord Seeker Lucius) calls each and every Seeker an abomination and Cassandra who is our other in-game expert agrees with him. This supercedes any STALE quote from DG over five years ago especially when the recent dialog was APPROVED by the ame person that was the source of your stale quote. It makes the Lord Seekers from the start hypocrits (a point Cassandra understands very well even if you don't). It also means the Seekers violated their promise to the Last Inquisitor when they signed the Nevarran Accords.
1.No divine wasn't acting within her rights because it is not her right to assassinate templars (aside from her other illegal activities) on her whim.The circles were under the authority of templars and chantry your personal or Justinia preferences are unimportant, fact is that circles were under chantry and templars control.Once again it was dumb because not only she lead to war that she was trying to prevent but also lead to her losing power leaving her with nothing at the end of asunder but few loyal supporters.Also where he said he was corrupted...
2.Recency is is irrelevant because once again all you have is word of in-game character than can lie or use definition incorrectly (same is in case of codex) , while i have offical DG claim once again and other sources that support my claim.Aside from fact that even if line that was approved by DG doesn't mean it is true unless you want me to tell me that every line that DG approves is truth and can't be lie or wrong use of definition aside simply mistake on writers part.
How does that make them hypocrites in first place abomnations are hunted by templars/seekers because they are threat to society while seekers even if labeled as abomnation aren't...
1.No divine wasn't acting within her rights because it is not her right to assassinate templars (aside from her other illegal activities) on her whim.The circles were under the authority of templars and chantry your personal or Justinia preferences are unimportant, fact is that circles were under chantry and templars control.Once again it was dumb because not only she lead to war that she was trying to prevent but also lead to her losing power leaving her with nothing at the end of asunder but few loyal supporters.Also where he said he was corrupted...
2.Recency is is irrelevant because once again all you have is word of in-game character than can lie or use definition incorrectly (same is in case of codex) , while i have offical DG claim once again and other sources that support my claim.Aside from fact that even if line that was approved by DG doesn't mean it is true unless you want me to tell me that every line that DG approves is truth and can't be lie or wrong use of definition aside simply mistake on writers part.
The Divine didn't assassinate Templars. Lambert OTOH was murderous and illegally tried to thwart his superior who was acting within her rights. Also read you codex entries and your lore. For that matter play DAO again. The circles are NOT under the authority of the chantry NOR are they a part of the chantry. For that matter the Templars are supposed to guard, protect, and advise only. Circles are supposed to be run by the mages. That IS the Lore and chantry law. Funny how Lambert became a murderous thus when Divine Justinia decided to enforce that law for the first time in centuries.
As for your claim about the Seekers, remember it was DG (the lead writer) that APPROVED all the dialog from Lord Seeker Lucius (and Seeker Cassandra) and they were both speaking as in-world experts. That makes it lore and it overrides DG's comments whether you like it or not. As for being hypocrits, that should be obvious. Even Cassandra admits after she found out about the Seekers (and even more so about the truth of Inquisitor Ameridan) that the Seekers of Truth were hypocritical to their core.
The Divine didn't assassinate Templars. Lambert OTOH was murderous and illegally tried to thwart his superior who was acting within her rights. Also read you codex entries and your lore. For that matter play DAO again. The circles are NOT under the authority of the chantry NOR are they a part of the chantry. For that matter the Templars are supposed to guard, protect, and advise only. Circles are supposed to be run by the mages. That IS the Lore and chantry law. Funny how Lambert became a murderous thus when Divine Justinia decided to enforce that law for the first time in centuries.
As for your claim about the Seekers, remember it was DG (the lead writer) that APPROVED all the dialog from Lord Seeker Lucius (and Seeker Cassandra) and they were both speaking as in-world experts. That makes it lore and it overrides DG's comments whether you like it or not. As for being hypocrits, that should be obvious. Even Cassandra admits after she found out about the Seekers (and even more so about the truth of Inquisitor Ameridan) that the Seekers of Truth were hypocritical to their core.
Yes she did , once again you seem fail grasp event that occurred she send her assassin (leliana) to white spire, also once again you try pull off "i don't like it thus illegal" because Lambert actions were legal.I don't need to do that you on other hand could use in doing sadly i doubt it would help.This isn't chantry law once again Chantry and templars have authority in matters of the circle and this isn't news we saw that in dao magi origins , broken circle and da 2 with meredith.
Show me where DG approved and said what Lucius claimed is true and now lore if you can't it is once again nothing more than empty claim that is your personal preference on your part.Once again i have word of God while you have only in-universe character claim unless you can provide proof it will remain your personal preference.Also once again , no they aren't hypocrites because once again reason as why they hunt X doesn't apply to them.Also link to where cassandra said seekers were hypocrites because i don't recall it and once again seems like something you made up.
DG was head writer for DAI. That means he approved all the dialog and lore for DAI. Goes with the job.
As for the Circles read the codex entries on it. While it's true the Chantry (and Templars as part of it) helped set up the circles, it was supposed to be run by the mages themselves. Knight Commander Gregoire even says so explicitly. Not only that but in DAI Cassandra confirms that Templars were never supposed to run the circles, simply guard and protect them.
Meredith (and Lambert) were mage-hating loons. Meredith at least had the excuse of Red Lyrium.
DG was head writer for DAI. That means he approved all the dialog and lore for DAI. Goes with the job.
As for the Circles read the codex entries on it. While it's true the Chantry (and Templars as part of it) helped set up the circles, it was supposed to be run by the mages themselves. Knight Commander Gregoire even says so explicitly. Not only that but in DAI Cassandra confirms that Templars were never supposed to run the circles, simply guard and protect them.
Meredith (and Lambert) were mage-hating loons. Meredith at least had the excuse of Red Lyrium.
Once again even if he approved it doesn't mean it is truth aside from mistakes writers part characters may lie or use definition incorrectly unless you have confirmation from devs they changed part of the lore it is nothing more than personal preference.
I have read them and played every dragon age game and definitely mages shouldn't have more control than chantry or templars (what would be pure stupidity considering circles were created to control mages) and didn't , once again chantry and templars had last word in say and no even Gregoir is best example of this as he has last word in matters of the circle (like how many mages he allowed to send to Ostagar) and Irving knows that chantry is in charge.Also i don't recall Cassandra saying this (so once again you make thing character said up?) , only thing i remember cassandra vision where she wanted templars as protectors not jailors.
Meredith loon yes, Lambert wasn't he was most competent and sane character in the book.
Oh god. KomandorShepard and IanPolaris got into an argument.
The thread is doomed, but at least it will be interesting to see who gives up first.
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