77 réponses à ce sujet

[Mcfly616]

This is what renegade Shepard was supposed to be. 

But he didn't end up being that way. Half the time he just ended up being a total dick for no good reason.

[In Exile]

Yeah, that was a beef for me too. The Salarians seem more spiteful than anything. If they truly believed that the Krogans were such a threat that they outranked the giant space monsters currently, and literally, exterminating the galaxy, wouldn't they do more than just throw harsh words at Shepard?

 

And the Salarian thinking everyone will survive the war would be less inane if, you know, they actually did anything to achieve that. But they are one of the least active races against the Reapers; only the STG seems willing to make a stand, and by disobeying orders no less. It's mostly why I cured the Genophage; while I am concerned of the future Krogan's behavior and needs, at least they don't act like passive-aggressive prima donnas about it all and are willing to fight the damn Reapers which is what I need right now.

 

As for the topic, I think ME2 did Renegade the best; ruthless in the pursuit of their goal, but also kinda funny. ME1 Renegade was a racist douche, and ME3 Renegade was an overly edgy scumbag. I mean, shooting Samara's daughter after allowing her mom to suicide? What kind of heartless sociopath does such a thing, seriously.

 

Thinking on it, I actually think the real "renegade" choice in all of this is a Salarian who believes the Krogan will start a second rebellion curing the genophage anyway, because in the end the real and pressing danger of the reapers - who will and are on the way to a total genocide of all civlization - is a far better and more important threat to deal with than the hypothetical future krogran. 

 

People love this idea that they're morally powerful ubermensch making the "tough" choice, but sometimes the choice isn't tough at all. 

[Giantdeathrobot]

But he didn't end up being that way. Half the time he just ended up being a total dick for no good reason.

 

I'd rather ditch the morality system completely, to be honest. It doesn't bring anything interesting to the table. Paragon and Renegade might as well be labeled Good and Evil the majority of the time, to say nothing of the fact that Bioware's interpretation of Renegade changed every game. 

 

Dragon Age manages to have tough and ruthless choices, and no need for a morality system at all. I don't need a small +10 Renegade pointer to know that letting Archer experiment on his brother is highly questionable, morally. 

[Heimdall]

In my opinion morality systems in games often only work when they actually exist in the setting. Dark side and light side worked in KOTOR because the Force is a real thing in setting. Even the Open Palm and Closed Fist philosophies in Jade Empire made sense in setting, though the implementation was often lacking.

By contrast, Paragon and Renegade only seem to exist because the devs thought they needed to have a morality system and is entirely disconnected from the setting. They should scrap them entirely, they don't really add anything.

[Ahglock]

In my opinion morality systems in games often only work when they actually exist in the setting. Dark side and light side worked in KOTOR because the Force is a real thing in setting. Even the Open Palm and Closed Fist philosophies in Jade Empire made sense in setting, though the implementation was often lacking.

By contrast, Paragon and Renegade only seem to exist because the devs thought they needed to have a morality system and is entirely disconnected from the setting. They should scrap them entirely, they don't really add anything.

I mostly agree but you still want a wide range of options for conversations and interupts. The reason I say mostly is because the range should be fairly consistent to create a believable character. Maybe certain extremes open up if you continue to be extremely violent or something but with or without labels there is a personality structure for the character that should be followed.

For interupts I kind of want a generic Interupt icon with maybe the button you hit determining if it's a peaceful or violent Interupt.

[Heimdall]

I mostly agree but you still want a wide range of options for conversations and interupts. The reason I say mostly is because the range should be fairly consistent to create a believable character. Maybe certain extremes open up if you continue to be extremely violent or something but with or without labels there is a personality structure for the character that should be followed.

For interupts I kind of want a generic Interupt icon with maybe the button you hit determining if it's a peaceful or violent Interupt.

DA2 tried something like that with its dominant personality system, which I really didn't like as I think it should be up to the player to decide what choice is consistent with their character's personality. Now, if it were something more like a reputation system where, for example, a threat is more likely to work if the character has a history of brutality, that I would like.

Interrupts could do with being more explicit about what the action is, in my view

[themikefest]

For interupts I kind of want a generic Interupt icon with maybe the button you hit determining if it's a peaceful or violent Interupt.

I wouldn't mind having a few violent interrupts mixed with some very harsh language. ME3 could've used a few of those

[Scofield]

Hopefully they dont, the system was rubbish in all 3 games, just give me hard choices that are neither "good" nor "bad" "right" nor "wrong" but to some extent realistic leave good/bad to the outcome

[GDICanuck]

I kinda liked ME1's style the best. Depending on how far you pushed it, you could hit any point from loose cannon cop to ruthless sociopath. My Shep landed more on the "Judge Dredd" part of the scale.

ME2 let you do that too to an extent, but the way the charm/intimidate checks worked in the background kinda punished you if you went for a mixed alignment by locking you out of some options. It's weird that I can execute Balak without hesitation but can't threaten to do the same to Kelham because I racked up too many paragon points telling Miranda to talk to her sister.

[God]

I rather hope they do away with the P/R system altogether. Karma meters are so early 2000's.

[Dantriges]

I wondered how Wreav actually fell for it. It seems some simple test is enough. EDI could tell that Grunt had the genophage after the tank was on board. Ok Wreav is a dumb idiot but didn´t anyone test, if the cure actually took hold? And well, Shep could have blamed the failed cure on the fact that the delivery system was exploding at the moment of dispersal.

[KaiserShep]

I kinda liked ME1's style the best. Depending on how far you pushed it, you could hit any point from loose cannon cop to ruthless sociopath. My Shep landed more on the "Judge Dredd" part of the scale.

ME2 let you do that too to an extent, but the way the charm/intimidate checks worked in the background kinda punished you if you went for a mixed alignment by locking you out of some options. It's weird that I can execute Balak without hesitation but can't threaten to do the same to Kelham because I racked up too many paragon points telling Miranda to talk to her sister.

Yeah I hated ME2's implementation. Shepard sticks some sort of arc welding tool into Cathka's back while making a casual one-liner, but can't use the license to kill to threaten a criminal? Madness. 

[EliotNesss]

Well, the ultimate Uber Renegade in the Shepard trilogy was The Illusive Man. Maybe they'll allow people who wish,  to actually play that kind of character all the way though to its end in Andromeda.

[Ahglock]

I wondered how Wreav actually fell for it. It seems some simple test is enough. EDI could tell that Grunt had the genophage after the tank was on board. Ok Wreav is a dumb idiot but didn´t anyone test, if the cure actually took hold? And well, Shep could have blamed the failed cure on the fact that the delivery system was exploding at the moment of dispersal.

Yeah. I kind of assumed part of the sabotage included some way that gave a false positive effect. They just didn't go into the details when selling it to you. Otherwise yeah it shouldn't have fooled anyone for any length of time.

[9TailsFox]

I hope they get rid paragon/renegade for good.

[KaiserShep]

Well the Salarians made their position with the assumption that everyone would survive the Reaper war. They were essentially planning for the post-Reaper future. They had valid reasons to be concerned. The Krogan have a ridiculously high birth rate and can survive war torn conditions better than any other species. They also have a history of aggressively expanding into the territory of other species and acting like assholes. Plus, the Krogan aren't exactly unified. Even in ME2, you saw that there were clans out there who didn't agree with Wrex and actively opposed him. What if some of these clans were to break off and start causing havoc? And that's with Wrex in charge. What if Wreav were there instead? He explicitly states that he wants to be a conquerer. Having him in charge of a rapidly growing population of Krogan is a disaster for everyone. Also, the Salarians had a pretty legit plan in making sure that the Krogan wouldn't find out what they were doing. I think they make a pretty strong case to join their side. If we tell them to **** off, we lose the support of one of the major powers in the galaxy. Salarian support likely played a crucial role in developing the crucible, seeing as how they are one of the most tech-savvy species out there. I still think its a more pragmatic decision to side with them instead of curing the genophage. 

 

Even Shepard can put it quite plainly that the consequences of curing the genophage would be nothing compared to the reapers winning, and she'd be right. There's absolutely nothing the krogan can do that would be on that level. Look at it this way: the krogan in their current state are considerably weaker than where they were during the rebellions, yet they were defeated and the galaxy moved on. What's to stop the salarians and turians from implementing a bioweapon that, instead of simply curbing their birth rate, simply removes their ability to reproduce altogether, if not simply kill the adults as well? All in all, a potential fight with the krogan later is preferable to annihilation by the reapers now. At least the former has a very low chance of all of galactic society being wiped out. 

 

Heck, the Primarch is in a position where he'd be right in the crosshairs of an angry krogan horde, yet even he supports the decision to administer the cure, because there's not much use for worrying about the krogan if everyone's dead. 

[The Real Pearl #2]

I want to be able to eat some alien enemies. I always wondered what salarians tasted like... Why do krogan get to have all the tasty snacks?

[The Real Pearl #2]

I also want my choices to matter and to have consequences that can greatly impact the outcome of the game world. My point is that If we keep the moral system then at least make it have more of a bigger part in the game. And if they do remove it, i hope they don't present us with pointless morality choices. 

[straykat]

It's hard to say. I know they ramped up in ME2, seemingly for the lulz. Like Hudson said they just kept adding Renegade stuff because it was funny.

 

Those are the purest motivations..

 

Somehow **** got too serious in ME3. And too polarized. You were either Boy Scout or Sociopath. And nothing funny about the latter (except maybe a few cases). In ME2, Renegade just came off like a John McClane from Die Hard..or some 80s action hero like that. Somehow they thought it should be evil instead.

[omgodzilla]

Even Shepard can put it quite plainly that the consequences of curing the genophage would be nothing compared to the reapers winning, and she'd be right. There's absolutely nothing the krogan can do that would be on that level. Look at it this way: the krogan in their current state are considerably weaker than where they were during the rebellions, yet they were defeated and the galaxy moved on. What's to stop the salarians and turians from implementing a bioweapon that, instead of simply curbing their birth rate, simply removes their ability to reproduce altogether, if not simply kill the adults as well? All in all, a potential fight with the krogan later is preferable to annihilation by the reapers now. At least the former has a very low chance of all of galactic society being wiped out. 

 

Heck, the Primarch is in a position where he'd be right in the crosshairs of an angry krogan horde, yet even he supports the decision to administer the cure, because there's not much use for worrying about the krogan if everyone's dead. 

 

Its not just about a potential war future war with the Krogan though. Its also about attaining full Salarian support, which you only get if you sabotage the cure. Sabotaging the cure guarantees that you get full Salarian support but does NOT guarantee that you will lose all Krogan support. Whereas curing the genophage will guarantee that you lose Salarian support. Which of those odds sound better? 

 

Now, of course, there is that whole thing with Wrex finding out about the sabotage and the Salarians giving you a fleet for saving their counciler but there was no way to predict these events happening in the moment you made your choice regarding the cure. 

[omgodzilla]

It's hard to say. I know they ramped up in ME2, seemingly for the lulz. Like Hudson said they just kept adding Renegade stuff because it was funny.

 

Those are the purest motivations..

 

Somehow **** got too serious in ME3. And too polarized. You were either Boy Scout or Sociopath. And nothing funny about the latter (except maybe a few cases). In ME2, Renegade just came off like a John McClane from Die Hard.. or some 80s action hero like that. Somehow they thought it should be evil instead.

 

I don't really agree that renegade Shepard was evil in ME3. The only choice that comes close to being evil was shooting Falare after Samara commits suicide. But even that had some level of reasoning behind it, due to the fact that she was an Ardat Yakshi. Other than that choice, I can't really think of anything in ME3 that was evil. Every renegade choice had a legit reasoning behind it.

 

Shooting Mordin was done to sabotage the cure and get Salarian support while preventing a potential future Krogan rebellion. The geth/quarian genocides aren't even renegade choices. You HAVE to kill one species if you can't do the persuasion. And what else is there?

[straykat]

Its not just about a potential war future war with the Krogan though. Its also about attaining full Salarian support, which you only get if you sabotage the cure. Sabotaging the cure guarantees that you get full Salarian support but does NOT guarantee that you will lose all Krogan support. Whereas curing the genophage will guarantee that you lose Salarian support. Which of those odds sound better? 

 

Now, of course, there is that whole thing with Wrex finding out about the sabotage and the Salarians giving you a fleet for saving their counciler but there was no way to predict these events happening in the moment you made your choice regarding the cure. 

 

Maybe that's a bad choice of words. If I think the old ME2 Renegade was Die Hard-like. Then I'd say ME3 is like Sgt Barnes from Platoon. Ruthless, if not evil. And more fitting to a war story. EXCEPT. I don't give a **** about war stories. I prefer action. There's "renegade" things in those, but there's something more light about it, I guess.

[spinachdiaper]

I'm expecting ME:A's renegade choices to be akin to the actions of grumpy Care Bear.

[Sartoz]

                                                                                                    <<<<<<<<<<()>>>>>>>>>>

 

Let's see.

Our Pathfinder has one goal: colonize humanity's new Home World. Ideally, a world as close to Paradise as possible.

 

She can be brutal in her search for the new HW, allowing nothing to stand in her way. Even her team is subject to that one primary goal and all else subservient. Decisions, then, are based on achieving that purpose. In this scenario, she can be all you ever wished.  A dictatorial fiend.

 

But

Our intrepid Pathfinder is on a Hero's journey. Stumbling at first, learning her "way around" with hard choices to make at every turn. Will she envourage her team or lash out at their poor performance? Will she shoot first and ask questions later? Can she find a good world for humanity with a positive attitude? Will she let romance stand in her way? Will she develop into a charismatic leader?.. making Allies of the local aliens.

 

 

I think Bio has an opportunity, here, to design a complex character with key decisions reverberating down the road.

[Applepie_Svk]

I hope they get rid paragon/renegade for good.

 

Why ? If BioWare had any value at all for the development of games it was conversation wheel and paragon/renegade choices. I wouldn´t mind to remove the blue-red markings of morality inside the convos, but to remove the renegade/paragon would loose some of the meaning of role-play in the RPG.