77 réponses à ce sujet

[Heimdall]

Why ? If BioWare had any value at all for the development of games it was conversation wheel and paragon/renegade choices. I wouldn´t mind to remove the blue-red markings of morality inside the convos, but to remove the renegade/paragon would loose some of the meaning of role-play in the RPG.

The value is in choices, arbitrarily assigning them paragon and renegade values doesn't add anything.

[themikefest]

The value is in choices, arbitrarily assigning them paragon and renegade values doesn't add anything.

Without having paragon or renegade values, the player would never be able to get peace between the geth and quarians. Mordin/Padok would always be shot if the player wants to sabotage the genophage. Miranda would always die. Without the interrupt, Samara would always die. Ashley/Kaidan would always be shot. TIM would always be shot instead of him shooting himself.  I know I like to of seen more interrupts in ME3, especially renegade interrupts

[In Exile]

Its not just about a potential war future war with the Krogan though. Its also about attaining full Salarian support, which you only get if you sabotage the cure. Sabotaging the cure guarantees that you get full Salarian support but does NOT guarantee that you will lose all Krogan support. Whereas curing the genophage will guarantee that you lose Salarian support. Which of those odds sound better? 

 

Now, of course, there is that whole thing with Wrex finding out about the sabotage and the Salarians giving you a fleet for saving their counciler but there was no way to predict these events happening in the moment you made your choice regarding the cure. 

 

We're not contesting the actual choice in the game so much as how stupid it really is when you think about the Salarian position. 

[KaiserShep]

Its not just about a potential war future war with the Krogan though. Its also about attaining full Salarian support, which you only get if you sabotage the cure. Sabotaging the cure guarantees that you get full Salarian support but does NOT guarantee that you will lose all Krogan support. Whereas curing the genophage will guarantee that you lose Salarian support. Which of those odds sound better?

Now, of course, there is that whole thing with Wrex finding out about the sabotage and the Salarians giving you a fleet for saving their counciler but there was no way to predict these events happening in the moment you made your choice regarding the cure.

While the game doesn't really reflect this, the actual risk of sabotaging the cure is greater than just losing krogan support. Turian support hinges on the promise of krogan allies. Imagine if in sabotaging the cure, no krogan left Tuchanka and they decided to bunker down on their own world. That automatically loses the turians. The salarians couldn't hope to offer as much as these two combined do. The salarians are fools; we should eat them.

[German Soldier]

As much as anti hero as possible 

[Ahglock]

We're not contesting the actual choice in the game so much as how stupid it really is when you think about the Salarian position.

It's one of the many duality choices in me that don't make much sense. Rachni let her go or kill her? How about just keep her captive until the council forces show up.

This one at least I could kind of head canon around by saying the salarians ran projections and gave their species a statistically insignificant chance of surviving if the Krogans were cured and their belief was there was no point in surviving the war if it meant they were going to be eaten by Krogans soon after. Good choice, no but it's a petulant choice I can believe.

[Ahglock]

While the game doesn't really reflect this, the actual risk of sabotaging the cure is greater than just losing krogan support. Turian support hinges on the promise of krogan allies. Imagine if in sabotaging the cure, no krogan left Tuchanka and they decided to bunker down on their own world. That automatically loses the turians. The salarians couldn't hope to offer as much as these two combined do. The salarians are fools; we should eat them.

Honestly if they were offering a fleet of scientists to help with the crucible then it would be worth the turian, krogan and Asari fleet. They set it up so the fleets were kind of pointless but we wanted to build them up for reasons. All that should have mattered is how fast and undetected your crucible build plan was. Fleets? Totally pointless. But hey high EMS. The game didn't really reflect it can be used for a lot of things in this game I guess. But why my magic ray of solve all problems blows up earth if I don't have enough troop strength is one that has always baffled me. Worlds being more reaper ravaged when the ray goes off I get but fewer options, more destructive magic ray I don't.

[goishen]

This. 

 

ME2 was such a masterpiece. I wanna push more mercs out of windows. 

 

 

I hope they go the way of the Sith Sorcerer in SW:TOR.  God I loved killing people in that game with her.  Especially the dark council member.  What a fight.

 

"Hey you, what are you doing here?"

 

"Killing you...   Of course."

 

Wait, what?

 

Hell yes!

[Seraphim24]

I was pretty disappointed at how tame the Inquisitor was in DAI. Other than a few executions and IB's side misson, there really weren't many options for us to be truly ruthless. I miss the days of ME2 when we could threaten our enemies, push them off windows, set them on fire, snap their necks, electrocute them, torture them, headbutt them, etc. I still think ME2 had the best morality system by far.

 

Those are all cowardly and pathetic things, I see you drink deeply from the well of edge.

 

It's not "ruthless in pursuit of a goal," it's aimless childish antics and gun-wavy bullyism, the opposite of ruthless and effective.

[Ahglock]

Those are all cowardly and pathetic things, I see you drink deeply from the well of edge.

It's not "ruthless in pursuit of a goal," it's aimless childish antics and gun-wavy bullyism, the opposite of ruthless and effective.

Most of the me2 renegade choices were both ruthless and effective. The shove the merc out the window one was the most awesome but borderline one of them. But it was ruthless and it was effective. It would have been nice if there had been a get him to talk option but making sure no live enemies are behind you is still effective.

[Seraphim24]

Most of the me2 renegade choices were both ruthless and effective. The shove the merc out the window one was the most awesome but borderline one of them. But it was ruthless and it was effective. It would have been nice if there had been a get him to talk option but making sure no live enemies are behind you is still effective.

 

The paragon choices were equally effective in all instances, and if the game we're realistic, that guard's pals would of come after you in retribution in the middle of a different mission and taken out one of your companions.

 

The fact that it didn't happen is the game's failure to reflect reality, not evidence of equality between the options.

 

The fantasy of mayhem without repercussion has been established in Hollywood for years, there's nothing new about Bioware's approach, so it won't be "how far they go" but "how much closer to traditional media will they be?"

[Ahglock]

The paragon choices were equally effective in all instances, and if the game we're realistic, that guard's pals would of come after you in retribution in the middle of a different mission and taken out one of your companions.

The fact that it didn't happen is the game's failure to reflect reality, not evidence of equality between the options.

The fantasy of mayhem without repercussion has been established in Hollywood for years, there's nothing new about Bioware's approach, so it won't be "how far they go" but "how much closer to traditional media will they be?"

Really some mercs friends are going to track you down somewhere in the Galaxy because their buddy who was engaged in a job with a high risk of being killed got killed.

Yeah legal ramifications are ignored but most of me2 happened in lawless areas so you were clear there as well. And add ramifications just do the same for the paragon ones.

[goishen]

Well, plus add in that you were a spectre, that didn't hurt.  I think that's what scared most people away.

[Dantriges]

Yeah. I kind of assumed part of the sabotage included some way that gave a false positive effect. They just didn't go into the details when selling it to you. Otherwise yeah it shouldn't have fooled anyone for any length of time.

 

They tell you, that they sabotaged the shroud (as far as we know, it could have been a long time ago), so it couldn´t be used as a dispersal system. Why should they include a false positive effect and how? They didn´t knew what Mordin was actually doing to cure it, when they implemented the sabotage. OK, I am working under the assumption that changing the glands to produce the needed hormones(?) is actually noticeable, but 21st century science can measure your hormone levels, so it´s not an unreasonable assumption.

 

Well, plus add in that you were a spectre, that didn't hurt.  I think that's what scared most people away.

 

It´s possible, that you aren´t a spectre in ME 2.

[Sidney]

My gripe with the renegade path is that in order to do it you have to be a real jerk to your own crew too often. The willingness to say that we will sacrifice 5 hostages to save 5000 is a renegade thing to do. Telling a crew member to shut up about her daddy issues isn't since that isn't a practical decision or a means to an end scenario. They need to strip the paragon and renegade points off personal interactions. I might be a good guy who is dysfunctional around my crew or a pragmatist who loves "my guys".

[Seraphim24]

Really some mercs friends are going to track you down somewhere in the Galaxy because their buddy who was engaged in a job with a high risk of being killed got killed.

Yeah legal ramifications are ignored but most of me2 happened in lawless areas so you were clear there as well. And add ramifications just do the same for the paragon ones.

 

Really some mercs friends are going to track you down somewhere in the Galaxy because their buddy who was engaged in a job with a high risk of being killed got killed.

 

Murder tends to breed a high degree of hatred, just one of these... things.

[Daemul]

If P/R are still in the game I would be happy if they kept ME3's Renegade, it was perfect and it sorted out the men from the boys. Are you willing to kill your friends and betray those close to you in order to save the galaxy? No? Then this path isn't for you. 

 

Funnily enough, if you had given me ME3's renegade to play as back in 2007 I wouldn't have been able to do it. Those were the days when I still had my antiquated sense of morality, to steal Jason Todds line, the days when I thought that Batman was in the right for not killing Joker because doing so would mean he could lose all sense of morality and continue to kill any villain he came across, and tbh Batman was sort of right on that, because I've found that even in Mass Effect, where I originally started as the typical "always pick upper left", 100% paragon guy, once I picked my first morally questionable Renegade action and got a taste for it, it became noticeably easier and easier to pick the next one and then the next one, until eventually it became routine. 

 

So whilst I disagree completely with Batman on not killing the Joker(dude has caused way too much damage to be allowed to live), I do agree that if he did do that then he could easily find himself in that "dark place that he would never be able to turn away from", to paraphrase his words. 

 

Somehow **** got too serious in ME3. And too polarized. You were either Boy Scout or Sociopath. And nothing funny about the latter (except maybe a few cases). In ME2, Renegade just came off like a John McClane from Die Hard..or some 80s action hero like that. Somehow they thought it should be evil instead.

 

ME3 Renegade wasn't a sociopath, a sociopath wouldn't have shown guilt towards killing Mordin and Wrex, and no, ME3 Renegade wasn't evil, he was an Anti-hero, there's a huge difference. He's a much tamer version of The Punisher. 

 

The only choice that comes close to being evil was shooting Falare after Samara commits suicide. But even that had some level of reasoning behind it, due to the fact that she was an Ardat Yakshi. 

 

Meh, the Commando's came to the Monastery to purge the place, so Shepard was just finishing off the job they started. The worst part about that mission was Samara's suicide, it made me lol at just how ridiculous it was. 

 

Most of the me2 renegade choices were both ruthless and effective.

 

 

ME2 Renegade was an idiot, dude was acting as if he was some sort of big man with his constant one liners and hilariously entitled attitude, everything he did seemed to be one big joke. Killing Mordin to stop the Genophage cure is ruthless and effective, sacrificing the hostages in order to stop Balak is ruthless and effective, pushing a merc out of a window for the lulz whilst cracking a dumb one liner is NOT ruthless and effective, it's dumb and unnecessary. If Shepard wanted to be ruthless and effective in that situation he would have just shot the merc in the head and continued on with the mission without cracking a dumb one liner. 

 

My gripe with the renegade path is that in order to do it you have to be a real jerk to your own crew too often. The willingness to say that we will sacrifice 5 hostages to save 5000 is a renegade thing to do. Telling a crew member to shut up about her daddy issues isn't since that isn't a practical decision or a means to an end scenario. They need to strip the paragon and renegade points off personal interactions. I might be a good guy who is dysfunctional around my crew or a pragmatist who loves "my guys".

 

Bioware mostly fixed this in ME3, I can't remember any renegade dialogue off the top of my head that had you acting like a dick to your squadmates in that game. Acting more serious? Sure, but acting like a dick? Not that I remember. 

[Blooddrunk1004]

Honestly i wish they would change Paragon / Renegade system or at least remove the colors and decisions that forced you too take one path.

I hate for example how rewriting heretics considered you a good guy and blowing them up made you bad one, considering both decisions were pretty much grey.

[Ahglock]

[
ME2 Renegade was an idiot, dude was acting as if he was some sort of big man with his constant one liners and hilariously entitled attitude, everything he did seemed to be one big joke. Killing Mordin to stop the Genophage cure is ruthless and effective, sacrificing the hostages in order to stop Balak is ruthless and effective, pushing a merc out of a window for the lulz whilst cracking a dumb one liner is NOT ruthless and effective, it's dumb and unnecessary. If Shepard wanted to be ruthless and effective in that situation he would have just shot the merc in the head and continued on with the mission without cracking a dumb one liner.


r.

Wow. Um killing him is killing him. One way was just more awesome. You can have style while being ruthless and effective. Having a less cool way to be ruthless and effective does not change shoving him out the window with an awesome one liner to being not ruthless or effective.

At least the other poster had a reasonable problem with the lack of what they felt were logical consequences.

[Ahglock]

Really some mercs friends are going to track you down somewhere in the Galaxy because their buddy who was engaged in a job with a high risk of being killed got killed.

Murder tends to breed a high degree of hatred, just one of these... things.

Distinctly possible my quibble is with the idea something like that must happen. Them not caring or feeling they had the resources to track you down or a variety of other reasons could intrude. And for every why wasn't there this logical consequence to this renegade action you can play the same what if to paragon actions.

[Sidney]

Honestly i wish they would change Paragon / Renegade system or at least remove the colors and decisions that forced you too take one path.
I hate for example how rewriting heretics considered you a good guy and blowing them up made you bad one, considering both decisions were pretty much grey.

I don't understand removing the colors? That is information for you the players. You don't have to pick the blue all the time. I like that just like I like the tone indicators in DA2 or the old [Persuade] or [Intimidiate] indicators.

I don't like the dual morality system but what irks me from more is the way the game punishes you for not maxing out your morality. Playing a middle ground typically nets you no real benefit.

[Drone223]

The morality system should be ditched altogether, the morallity system worked in KOTOR because the light and dark side actually exist in the SW universe. Paragon/renegade morality has no reason to exisit and just's come's off as just arbitraty.

[Fixers0]

While not truly renegade I do wish I can be extremely unpleasant to squadmates and other NPCs I don't happen to like, no forced friendships.

[KaiserShep]

While not truly renegade I do wish I can be extremely unpleasant to squadmates and other NPCs I don't happen to like, no forced friendships.

I'd like there to be an approval system of some sort where the companions have variable dispositions. I think it makes them more fun and sometimes more amusing. I would've liked to see an unfriendly Garrus.

[General TSAR]

I hope we don't go into stupid evil territory IE: Evil for the sake of being evil but I wouldn't mind the morality system discarded for something like Orgin's system. 

Meh, the genophage sabotage wasn't that bad. There were some very valid reasons to do it. By sabotaging it, you were risking the loss of Krogan support but were guaranteed Salarian support. By not taking the sabotage route, you were guaranteed Krogan support but were also guaranteed the loss of Salarian support. Strategically, it made sense to go with the sabotage route, especially since we were engaged in an apocalyptic, galaxy-ending war. In addition to that, there were also some valid reasons to believe that the Krogan weren't ready for a cure, especially if Wreav was in charge, since he makes it clear that he wants to be a conquerer. It wasn't really an evil choice at all. It was a difficult choice that had to be made (according to some), due to the extreme situation we were placed in. The same could be said to justify America's use of the atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. 

 

Unless you're talking about the Quarian genocide, which wasn't even a renegade option. If you can't do the persuasion, then you have no choice but to kill off one species. That's not really Shepard's fault. The Quarians caused their own mess...

Word.

 

The genophage sabotage was Machiavellian in nature but not cartoonishly evil. As for the Quarians, you tried to get them to stand down, but their hubris was too powerful and that led to their massacre.