230 réponses à ce sujet

[congokong]

"You don't see things the way I do so you're an apologist!" We're not defending him. We recognize that he's a deeply flawed individual (who is still a villain, mind you) who can't be written off as a simple mustache-twirling villain. And many people have spared Anders, most of them being SJW-types who think terrorism is completely fine.

Don't put words in my mouth with "You don't see things the way I do so you're an apologist!" I was humorously implying that sympathizing with him is the first step to being an apologist. Hence, the "lol."  You may not be defending him, but plenty of people do. Ex: Callidus Thorn on this thread.

[straykat]

Sadly, no. Even on this thread the apologists are actually excusing what he did; a sort of "he was right at the time, but wrong in the grand scheme of things" type of way. I've seen this morality hypocrisy too many times. Of course when things like this happen in real life they're suddenly talking about how evil it is, although I have to wonder how someone can rationalize Loghain's nearly destroying a country "ends-justify the means" actions but condemn, say, the 9/11 terrorist attacks? They all have their reasons. You even get a character in DA:I with this Loghain apologist mentality in quartermaster Threnn.

 

Well, it's not what I want to do. My bad if I'm really mistaken. It often just seems like people mostly appreciate it on the level I was speaking of.

 

One thing I'll disagree with you on is calling him cowardly. I think he was simply careless. Not that he was afraid to admit things. He even still acts defiant once you recruit him.. he makes no apologies about the City Elves, for instance. If you're an elf yourself, he mocks you and tells you to curse at him in elven. lol. And he still thinks Cailan is a fool.

 

The only thing he feels bad about is failing Ferelden. That and misjudging the Wardens at the border. He'll regret some of these other actions only because they contribute to that.

[Qun00]

In my opinion, there was no murder or betrayal in Ostagar. Loghain didn't actually want Caillan's death and he genuinely believed it was a lost battle.

That said, everything that came after is hard to justify.

One thing I'll disagree with you on is calling him cowardly. I think he was simply careless. Not that he was afraid to admit things. He even still acts defiant once you recruit him.. he makes no apologies about the City Elves, for instance. If you're an elf yourself, he mocks you and tells you to curse at him in elven. lol. And he still thinks Cailan is a fool.

Admitting that you did something and acknowledging your mistakes are two different things.

[Dabrikishaw]

I have no sympathy for Loghain and he always dies in my games now but I still think he's one of Bioware's best secondary antagonists.

[straykat]

In my opinion, there was no murder or betrayal in Ostagar. Loghain didn't actually want Caillan's death and he genuinely believed it was a lost battle.

That said, everything that came after is hard to justify.


Admitting that you did something and acknowledging your mistakes are two different things.

 

What are you referring to?

 

Either way, he doesn't think he made a mistake with the elves. He considered it completely logistically .. even in the camp later if you recruit him. He doesn't feel bad about it and isn't being "cowardly" per se. He's defiant. He even outright says you can't guilt him about it and has "bigger" things on his mind. Then you can tell him off for only feeling bad about other Fereldens.

[congokong]

Well, it's not what I want to do. My bad if I'm really mistaken. It often just seems like people mostly appreciate it on the level I was speaking of.

 

One thing I'll disagree with you on is calling him cowardly. I think he was simply careless. Not that he was afraid to admit things. He even still acts defiant once you recruit him.. he makes no apologies about the City Elves, for instance. If you're an elf yourself, he mocks you and tells you to curse at him in elven. lol. And he still thinks Cailan is a fool.

 

The only thing he feels bad about is failing Ferelden. That and misjudging the Wardens at the border. He'll regret some of these other actions only because they contribute to that.

Loghain was very afraid to admit things until not admitting them was pointless. He also was very afraid to lose his power and/or die and did whatever he thought could possibly work to preserve it. This is an example of confusing what's necessary for what's convenient; something the Grey Wardens are also renowned for.

 

And in my own experience I've encountered more Loghain apologists who always recruit him than people who sympathize and/or really like his character yet still always kill him for example. My experience anyway.

 

I happen to think Loghain is an interesting character, but so many people seem to think he's the most interesting/complex character in all Dragon Age. Considering the very impressive DA roster of characters I just don't see it. Subjective though.

[DebatableBubble]

Don't put words in my mouth with "You don't see things the way I do so you're an apologist!" I was humorously implying that sympathizing with him is the first step to being an apologist. Hence, the "lol."  You may not be defending him, but plenty of people do. Ex: Callidus Thorn on this thread.

 

Fair enough. Sorry for the reaction.

[straykat]

I just don't see his fear there. I think you're getting a little more into a subtle psychological observation or something.. Maybe you're right, but I'm just taking his words on the surface. I don't think it's that subtle. Basically, he's just a dick.

 

I imagine he might feel like crap 10 yrs later in DAI, but I don't see it here.. not on some of these things.

[congokong]

I just don't see his fear there. I think you're getting a little more into a subtle psychological observation or something.. Maybe you're right, but I'm just taking his words on the surface. I don't think it's that subtle. Basically, he's just a dick.

 

I imagine he might feel like crap 10 yrs later in DAI, but I don't see it here.. not on some of these things.

It just felt like that to me when he wouldn't own up to what he did, right or wrong, and falsely places the blame on others to cover his own ass; getting more people killed in the process. Ex: Ostagar. And then things like the Landsmeet. Even after he's outvoted, he won't surrender. And when he loses the duel, he yields to still try to save his own skin. Now I'm repeating myself. It feels like he won't man-up to anything he's done and potentially die for it until he's lost everything (as a Grey Warden willing to kill the archdemon).

[straykat]

It just felt like that to me when he wouldn't own up to what he did, right or wrong, and falsely places the blame on others to cover his own ass; getting more people killed in the process. Ex: Ostagar. And then things like the Landsmeet. Even after he's outvoted, he won't surrender. And when he loses the duel, he yields to still try to save his own skin. Now I'm repeating myself. It feels like he won't man-up to anything he's done and potentially die for it until he's lost everything (as a Grey Warden willing to kill the archdemon).

 

He mans up to some of those eventually. I just meant the elves. That's the one he blatantly waves off, even after being a recruit. And he can't deny that the Blight required magic/Wardens, after all. He just didn't know better.. he truly believed that Fereldens can defeat "even the Blight itself!" through sheer badassery. And he says something about being mistaken about the Wardens at the border.

[congokong]

He mans up to some of those eventually. I just meant the elves. And he can't deny that the Blight required magic/Wardens, after all. And he says something about being mistaken about the Wardens at the border.

Like I said, that's after he's already lost everything and you choose to spare him at the Landsmeet. Otherwise he admits nothing before he dies.

[straykat]

Like I said, that's after he's already lost everything and you choose to spare him at the Landsmeet. Otherwise he admits nothing before he dies.

 

True. But that's also because he just believes in willpower and courage. He's relying on how they defeated Orlais, and trying to tell everyone at the Landsmeet that's what they needed. So he sticks to his guns for this overall belief.

 

It's only after the Joining that it becomes clear to him. I can't blame him for that. DAO in general pushes a crap message about how you need magic to solve everything. Unfortunately it's true. But this is the one reason I like Loghain. That he just believes in simple people.

[congokong]

True. But that's also because he just believes in willpower and courage. He's relying on how they defeated Orlais, and trying to tell everyone at the Landsmeet that's what they needed. So he sticks to his guns for this overall belief.

 

It's only after the Joining that it becomes clear to him. I can't blame him for that. DAO in general pushes a crap message about how you need magic to solve everything. Unfortunately it's true. But this is the one reason I like Loghain. That he just believes in simple people.

I won't deny his fantasy of him being the sole savior of Ferelden is shattered after the Landsmeet, and that fantasy is likely the primary motivation behind his cowardly acts like those I've mentioned (except yielding in the duel simply to save his skin). Cowardly acts with reasons behind them besides plain fear are still cowardly to me. That's all I meant.

[Qun00]

What are you referring to?

Either way, he doesn't think he made a mistake with the elves. He considered it completely logistically .. even in the camp later if you recruit him. He doesn't feel bad about it and isn't being "cowardly" per se. He's defiant. He even outright says you can't guilt him about it and has "bigger" things on his mind. Then you can tell him off for only feeling bad about other Fereldens.

I'm saying that the fact that he admits that these events took place isn't a redeeming factor.

[straykat]

I'm saying that the fact that he admits that these events took place isn't a redeeming factor.

 

Oh.. He couldn't deny any of it anyways. Pretty much caught redhanded.

 

I think the only person who comes even close to guilting him is the Reverend Mother, looming on that podium. lol

[Yaroub]

I just finished reading The Stolen Throne and am now reading The Calling. I had expected that by reading those books, I might be able to understand better why Loghain did the things he did, both in the books and in the game. But I came away hating him as much as I hated him when I'd only played the game.

 

Take him with you to Ostagar......you'll hate that Stubborn old dust even more.

 

But admirable stubbornness nonetheless.

[Qun00]

[straykat]

 

I've played the main quest multiple times with Loghain, but I've yet to launch the quest with that dude. That's funny..

[Yaroub]

I've played the main quest multiple times with Loghain, but I've yet to launch the quest with that dude. That's funny..

 

It's more funny with the captions on lol. Docs porn. 

[Qun00]

Inquisition Loghain would be easier to feel compassion for.

However, Origins Loghain doesn't make a very good case on his own behalf.

[Bardox9]

Loghain is my favorite villan because his actions are entirely understandable. His actions are not so much evil as they are the actions of a desperate man. Considering the path his life had taken him up to Ostagar and the sheer numbers of the overwhelming Darkspawn horde, walking away was a good (though cold) decision. Even Duncan said (in the mage origin) that "our resources must exceed theirs." The schemes Loghain engages through out the civil war are pure cold calculus.The alienage, The templar, Jowain. Given the position he had gotten into, he had no good options from his POV. Not to mention Riordan's point, needing as many Greywardens as possible, after learning how the Archdemon is killed is more than enough reason on it's own to put Loghain through the joining.

 

I only killed him once and that was just to see what would happen. When it comes to war, you can't allow emotions to dictate your actions.

[Qun00]

Loghain is my favorite villan because his actions are entirely understandable. His actions are not so much evil as they are the actions of a desperate man. Considering the path his life had taken him up to Ostagar and the sheer numbers of the overwhelming Darkspawn horde, walking away was a good (though cold) decision. Even Duncan said (in the mage origin) that "our resources must exceed theirs." The schemes Loghain engages through out the civil war are pure cold calculus.The alienage, The templar, Jowain. Given the position he had gotten into, he had no good options from his POV. Not to mention Riordan's point, needing as many Greywardens as possible, after learning how the Archdemon is killed is more than enough reason on it's own to put Loghain through the joining.

I only killed him once and that was just to see what would happen. When it comes to war, you can't allow emotions to dictate your actions.

I'd say thay calling his actions 100% justified is just as much of a black and white view as saying they are 100% comdemnable.

It isn't that simple in either way.

[Bardox9]

I'd say thay calling his actions 100% justified is just as much of a black and white view as saying they are 100% comdemnable.

It isn't that simple in either way.

Didn't say they were justifiable. Only understandable and not "evil".

[Qun00]

What is the difference? That's pretty much the definition of justification.

[congokong]

Everyone has reasons for doing "evil" things. Must you be some cackling one-dimensional character with no motivation besides doing evil things for the sake of being evil to be evil yourself?

 

I don't see people defend Corypheus in DA:I, because his actions are done out of pride, yet much sympathy for Calpernia for example. The only real difference between them is Calpernia does evil things for other (Tevinter) people more than just herself. Corypheus is prideful, but so is Loghain. Loghain's actions (post-Ostagar at least) are done because of his massive ego, presumably for the people, which conveniently included preserving his own life at any cost.

 

It's funny how people defend evil actions when they're done supposedly not just for yourself. You'd never know Loghain was fighting for the people though based on his actions.

 

 

...About Ostagar... I'm no military strategist, but even if that battle was (debatably) doomed to overall fail, wouldn't it have been better to fight to the last man to severely cripple the horde than let it march undeterred throughout southern Ferelden? How was Cailan wrong for trying to neutralize the blight's teeth quickly? He was a fool in many ways it seems, but even a broken clock is right twice a day. It seemed in this case he had the right idea. Could he not wait for reinforcements before the horde marched on or was he just impatient because of his visions of glory? It sounded like Loghain's fear of Orlais, possible sabotage of the battle, poisoning of Eamon beforehand, low opinion of Cailan, belief this wasn't a blight, abandonment of his king, etc. only made the battle worse. Clarification would be nice.