230 réponses à ce sujet

[Fylimar]

Loghain is for me the Snape of Dragon Age - a well written character, whose motivations are somewhat understandable, but a villain no less. He did terrible things and being afraid of the Orlesians doesn't excuse that. The worst thing was selling the elves into slavery - the most vulnerable and less protected people in Denerim. That was so monstrous, I was speechless. And I played a human mage, so no ties whatsoever to the elves and I didn't know the CE origin thus far.

I spared him once for story purpose (wanted to see his side) and although his motivation for betraying Caillan was somewhat more understandable after that and I even gave him some kudos for not telling his daughter what Cailan had planned, that doesn't justifiy killing the son of his best friend. And what about Duncan, those Ash Warriors, the nice kennel master, all those soldiers, merchants and nurses who died with Caillan? I think, apart from Arl Howe and the slavers from Tevinter and that rapist from the CE origin, Loghain was the worst non-monstrous (aka Darkspawn, abomination etc) creature in the whole story.

He is one of my favorite villains though, because he had plausible motivations and was well written. He was no comic villain, he was very believable - I guess, that's why people discuss so much about him ... and that's why I compared him to Snape at the beginning. I guess, they share some similarities  - especially in fan-reception and in being well-written.

[Vanalia]

Why not change the title of this topic and write "Help, I'm starting to have good tastes by liking a well-written character" ?

 

There's no shame in there, how many people in the world are fan of Darth Vader? well-written villains have their good sides and bad sides, that's why they are complex characters. And just like Vader, Loghain "still has good inside of him".

 

Even if many of his haters would like to see him 200% evil and responsible of everything in the world. That's a childish and immature interpretation of the character for people who don't want to take the time of thinking by themselves.

[congokong]

Why not change the title of this topic and write "Help, I'm starting to have good tastes by liking a well-written character" ?

 

There's no shame in there, how many people in the world are fan of Darth Vader? well-written villains have their good sides and bad sides, that's why they are complex characters. And just like Vader, Loghain "still has good inside of him".

 

Even if many of his haters would like to see him 200% evil and responsible of everything in the world. That's a childish and immature interpretation of the character for people who don't want to take the time of thinking by themselves.

There's a difference between liking an evil character and sympathizing with them.

[Vanalia]

Well, I ended up doing both.

[straykat]

Well, I ended up doing both.

 

I sympathize with the fact that he was a hero once.. and that he provides inspiration for commoners. But I don't sympathize with much that he did in DAO.

[Fylimar]

I don't think, that sympathizing with Loghain while despising him is a contradiction. You can see, where he's coming from and obviously, he totally lost it, but his fears are not to be mocked. They may be unrealistic to most, but to him, they are very realistic. I always had the impression that Loghain never really dealt with the horrrors he must have endured and seen during the war with the Orlesians. I guess he carried some kind of posttraumatic stress snydrom with him, that went unchecked and started to grew. As I said in my previous post, this does not excuse, what he did, but it gives him some background.

[straykat]

I don't think, that sympathizing with Loghain while despising him is a contradiction. You can see, where he's coming from and obviously, he totally lost it, but his fears are not to be mocked. They may be unrealistic to most, but to him, they are very realistic. I always had the impression that Loghain never really dealt with the horrrors he must have endured and seen during the war with the Orlesians. I guess he carried some kind of posttraumatic stress snydrom with him, that went unchecked and started to grew. As I said in my previous post, this does not excuse, what he did, but it gives him some background.

 

I understand that too. I understand his fears. He just went overboard.. It's one thing to bar the Orlesian Wardens at the border or something, but he killed many his own people in the process.

[congokong]

I don't think, that sympathizing with Loghain while despising him is a contradiction. You can see, where he's coming from and obviously, he totally lost it, but his fears are not to be mocked. They may be unrealistic to most, but to him, they are very realistic. I always had the impression that Loghain never really dealt with the horrrors he must have endured and seen during the war with the Orlesians. I guess he carried some kind of posttraumatic stress snydrom with him, that went unchecked and started to grew. As I said in my previous post, this does not excuse, what he did, but it gives him some background.

Hmmm. Philosophically, that's a tough one. I can't think of myself sympathizing with a character I despise though. I can see myself despising a character I understand, however. To me, at least, sympathizing with a character and understanding them are different things.

 

Sympathizing is more in the realm of "I see why you did what you did. It turned out to be wrong, but maybe in your shoes I'd have done the same. Maybe... But what you did was still wrong though. It sucks you were in that position." I mean, I can understand a serial killer's motivations to a degree, but in no way do I sympathize with them.

[Qun00]

It occurs to me that Cailan was willing to wait for reinforcements but Loghain was having none of it. The former wasn't left with much choice.

I don't think, that sympathizing with Loghain while despising him is a contradiction. You can see, where he's coming from and obviously, he totally lost it, but his fears are not to be mocked. They may be unrealistic to most, but to him, they are very realistic. I always had the impression that Loghain never really dealt with the horrrors he must have endured and seen during the war with the Orlesians. I guess he carried some kind of posttraumatic stress snydrom with him, that went unchecked and started to grew. As I said in my previous post, this does not excuse, what he did, but it gives him some background.

It kinda is. Based on that, you mean to say that his actions are forgiven. You might briefly mention that they are bad, but again, ultimately forgiven.

[Fylimar]

It occurs to me that Cailan was willing to wait for reinforcements but Loghain was having none of it. The former wasn't left with much choice.


It kinda is. Based on that, you mean to say that his actions are forgiven. You might briefly mention that they are bad, but again, ultimately forgiven.

 

  Nope, I didn't say that anywhere and I don't think that Loghain should or could ever be forgiven. Other people were traumatised too during teh war and didn't turn on their own. I only said, that one can sympathize with his condition, but that doesn't mean, he should be forgiven, those are two very different things

[Mike3207]

  Nope, I didn't say that anywhere and I don't think that Loghain should or could ever be forgiven. Other people were traumatised too during teh war and didn't turn on their own. I only said, that one can sympathize with his condition, but that doesn't mean, he should be forgiven, those are two very different things

It's a pretty harsh statement saying that Loghain couldn't and shouldn't be forgiven for the things he did. Turning that around, it wouldn't be a very good option if no one could ever forgive you for the bad things you have done.

 

Forgotten, sure. No one will ever forget-but forgiveness-that's something everyone deserves.

[congokong]

It's a pretty harsh statement saying that Loghain couldn't and shouldn't be forgiven for the things he did. Turning that around, it wouldn't be a very good option if no one could ever forgive you for the bad things you have done.

 

Forgotten, sure. No one will ever forget-but forgiveness-that's something everyone deserves.

Personally, I'm more in the "some things are not forgivable" camp.

[ModernAcademic]

It woudl be ironic to see the Warden of players who condemned Loghain to summary execution live long enough to be forced to make a hard choice and, as he tried to defend his actions, end up being portrayed as a villain.

 

And then, to be judged and condemned for his actions.

[Natureguy85]

I haven't read the books and don't include anything in them in making a decision about Loghain. I use only what is presented in the game, not secondary media. That said, there is reason to be sympathetic toward Loghain. He has legitimate and reasonable concerns and reasons for his actions, but those actions are reprehensible. He's like a well-intentioned extremist.

[springacres]

It woudl be ironic to see the Warden of players who condemned Loghain to summary execution live long enough to be forced to make a hard choice and, as he tried to defend his actions, end up being portrayed as a villain.

 

And then, to be judged and condemned for his actions.

My M!Surana has been expecting this ever since he got named the de facto Arl of Amaranthine.  Sooner or later, King Alistair or no King Alistair, some mundane human noble will probably manage to do just that, never mind that he's trying hard not to give any of them any fodder.

 

I haven't read the books and don't include anything in them in making a decision about Loghain. I use only what is presented in the game, not secondary media. That said, there is reason to be sympathetic toward Loghain. He has legitimate and reasonable concerns and reasons for his actions, but those actions are reprehensible. He's like a well-intentioned extremist.

^This.

[sylvanaerie]

It woudl be ironic to see the Warden of players who condemned Loghain to summary execution live long enough to be forced to make a hard choice and, as he tried to defend his actions, end up being portrayed as a villain.

 

And then, to be judged and condemned for his actions.

 

 

I haven't read the books and don't include anything in them in making a decision about Loghain. I use only what is presented in the game, not secondary media. That said, there is reason to be sympathetic toward Loghain. He has legitimate and reasonable concerns and reasons for his actions, but those actions are reprehensible. He's like a well-intentioned extremist.

 

Loghain is very much a 'but by the grace of God go I' type of villain, someone I could easily see the warden being with the whole "Anything to stop the Blight" mentality a lot of the people post here as some kind of justification for horrible actions taken by the warden PC.  Sure, you achieve your goal, but what does it cost you in the end?  Only a couple of my wardens have been so 'good' they haven't compromised their initial morality to end the Blight (as in, making only 'good' guy choices).  And the game kind of fails by not providing appropriate consequence to choosing these less than optimal (but more moral) choices.

 

He is a man with good intentions who does horrible, horrible things to achieve his goals, which on the surface would seem noble or good.  I think it's more the ruthlessness he goes about achieving them, listening to the wrong voices, both in his head and outside it that stamp him indelibly in my mind as a villain.

 

But, oh what a wonderful and complex villain he is indeed!

[Qun00]

It woudl be ironic to see the Warden of players who condemned Loghain to summary execution live long enough to be forced to make a hard choice and, as he tried to defend his actions, end up being portrayed as a villain.

And then, to be judged and condemned for his actions.

Yes, that can happen with Amaranthine vs Vigil's Keep. I usually don't go with the pragmatic option because that would make my Warden an hypocrite. It is Ostagar all over again.

Unfortunately, the writers removed any moral conflict by allowing you to save both.

[ThePhoenixKing]

Yes, that can happen with Amaranthine vs Vigil's Keep. I usually don't go with the pragmatic option because that would make my Warden an hypocrite. It is Ostagar all over again.

Unfortunately, the writers removed any moral conflict by allowing you to save both.

 

I didn't really mind having the third option through the Enduring Vigil achievement, mostly because it was something you really had to work towards through multiple quests. It was like getting everyone through the ME2 Suicide Mission (albeit on a smaller scale): difficult and time-consuming, but very rewarding if you could pull it off. Here's the thing: as irritating as it is to have a convenient third option, having a rigid binary choice where there are clearly other options available is far worse.

 

Anyways, getting back to the subject at hand, while Loghain is a multilayered and engaging villain, he remains simply that: a villain. No amount of Freudian excuses, patriotic rationalizations or other such justifications can make up for the fact that he betrayed the Wardens, the King and all their soldiers at Ostagar (remember, there are lots of knights and common soldiers fighting at Ostagar as well, he's abandoning them too) or establishing a dictatorship, or letting Howe run amok, or selling the Alienage elves into slavery, or trying to have Eamon murdered, or torturing people, or provoking a civil war when Ferelden most needs unity and cooperation, or hunting you down like animals and smearing the Wardens to cover his own ass.

 

Don't get me wrong, he's a great villain, well-written, and I appreciate the effort Bioware made at not turning him into a mustache-twirler like, say, Tarohne or Erimond. But just because he's not tying Leliana to the railroad tracks doesn't make him any less of a bad guy. At least, that's my perspective on things. I certainly have zero patience for any Draco in Leather Pants nonsense, so take that as you will.

[ModernAcademic]

Yes, that can happen with Amaranthine vs Vigil's Keep. I usually don't go with the pragmatic option because that would make my Warden an hypocrite. It is Ostagar all over again.

Unfortunately, the writers removed any moral conflict by allowing you to save both.

 

It's true. That's an excellent example. The Epilogue shows how the population's opinion on the Hero quickly turned sour if he let Amaranthine burn.

[straykat]

On a sidenote, I tried doing some console trickery and played an Orlesian Warden with my US import recently.

 

But I ended up loving the Orlesian.. there isn't much there, but they can be a cool character. I kind of like the choices in Awakening involving them. Like with Amaranthine. It kind of redeems Orlesians if you help them out. I also like the contrast with the Baroness there.. not just Ostagar.

[Natureguy85]

Yes, that can happen with Amaranthine vs Vigil's Keep. I usually don't go with the pragmatic option because that would make my Warden an hypocrite. It is Ostagar all over again.

Unfortunately, the writers removed any moral conflict by allowing you to save both.

 

Well you can only save both if you made sufficient preparations but I see your point. Interestingly, Varel will be killed if you go defend the Keep but he disappears without mention if you deal with Amaranthine. They could have made him only die if you didn't defend the Keep so there would be a bit of difference. I suppose the characters' fates are also different, some can die and Velanna will disappear.

 

That makes me think of something; I wonder why they didn't move gameplay to the Vigil and have you fight with the characters you left there, much like how Origins did in the battle of Denerim.

[Vanalia]

Oh, I burned Amaranthine, but I had made good preparations for the Vigil's keep so maybe I should have helped Amaranthine instead.

 

 

Loghain didn't have all the ressources the Warden had (the contracts with the other populations) so it was harder for him to fight the Blight without all these allies.

[ThePhoenixKing]

Oh, I burned Amaranthine, but I had made good preparations for the Vigil's keep so maybe I should have helped Amaranthine instead.

 

 

Loghain didn't have all the ressources the Warden had (the contracts with the other populations) so it was harder for him to fight the Blight without all these allies.

 

Would he even have accepted them if he did? He straight out tells Anora at one point "Ferelden will stand on its own."

[Illegitimus]

Would he even have accepted them if he did? He straight out tells Anora at one point "Ferelden will stand on its own."

 

He did actually send someone to demand help from the dwarves for what that was worth.  

[springacres]

He did actually send someone to demand help from the dwarves for what that was worth.  

And the steward's reaction to his messenger cracks me up every time.  "I don't care if you're the king's wiper..."