230 réponses à ce sujet

[ThePhoenixKing]

He did actually send someone to demand help from the dwarves for what that was worth.  

 

True. That said, as I recall, he wasn't asking for their aid against the Blight, but rather their "allegiance", so who knows what he was really after.

[GoldenGail3]

 
 
Loghain didn't have all the ressources the Warden had (the contracts with the other populations) so it was harder for him to fight the Blight without all these allies.

Yes, yes he did. He probaly had more rescourses then them. And I don't think he'd been able to defeat a blight without the GW anyhow...

[Catilina]

Help: I'm starting to sympathize with Loghain

Then stop it! immediatly!

[JJ Likeaprayer]

He did saved the soldiers from an impossible battle...in his own way. The original King(forgot his name,sorry) was a little inconsiderate at that time...but what's done is done. At that point there's only two thoughts in my mind:Either let Alistair kill him,or let him be the one who sacrifice his life to defeat the Archdemon... If the abandon was somewhat forgivable,then his assassination towards the Warden and Alistair afterward is not forgivable. He must pay in one way of another,if you made the choice of being evil (by trying to take the Warden and Alistair's innocent lives),then you're responsible. If he took over Ferelden,he would be such a tyrant,remember that dungeon of torture devices?

[Catilina]

Since then, I am thinking about it.

 

Loghain sent me Zevran, which was really nice of him. Zevran proved valuable gifts.

[The Baconer]

I like Loghain as a character, but I could never really sympathize with him. 

 

I'm only "sorry" that the Hero of the River Dane would become such a degenerate. 

[Willowhugger]

My opinion?

Loghain is a masterful military strategist but an awful politician and leader. He makes decisions based on prejudices, emotion, and whatever looks good at the time. He also doubles-down on his mistakes as well as sides with whoever works with him. Which is a perfectly viable character.

 

Loghain's problem is that he THINKS he'd be a good king but he utterly lacks the skill of his daughter.

Which results in Howe playing him like a fiddle.

As for his morality?

It doesn't enter the equation.

[TEWR]

It occurs to me that Cailan was willing to wait for reinforcements but Loghain was having none of it. The former wasn't left with much choice.


It kinda is. Based on that, you mean to say that his actions are forgiven. You might briefly mention that they are bad, but again, ultimately forgiven.

 

Hah! Cailan was "willing" to wait for reinforcements from Orlais which would take god knows how many weeks to traverse the Frostbacks alone -- it takes at least 2.5 to get from Orzammar to the Circle for a small party such as ours (Dagna), but factor in a large army and how moving through mountains isn't feasible for them and it'll be even worse -- or would more likely have to come by sea... which would also take a long ass time, especially with the storms that plague the Coastlands.

 

And yet this is the same king who denied the reinforcements that were a week away -- Eamon's forces -- because 'he just wants in on the glory'. So I'm supposed to believe he would just wait for Orlais?

 

Cailan wasn't willing to do anything like wait for reinforcements, in the end. He wanted his oh so glorious battle where the Blight would be stopped and he the hero of the tales, and he wanted it now. He didn't want to sit out of the battle and he didn't want to call on reinforcements. He didn't want to think of strategy, he wanted to think only of glory.

 

Who cares if soldiers die in the battle, so long as he gets his glory?

 

He used Orlais as a means to play the "I'm the king" card and get Loghain to capitulate to his demands that the battle happen then and there with him on the field, knowing Loghain would adamantly refuse Orlesian reinforcements. And so Loghain had to come up with a strategy that would feasibly work based on their latest intelligence and their numbers from the previous battles -- the Anvil&Hammer -- while also satisfying Cailan's vanity. Cailan wasn't going to wait for anyone, not if he could "end the Blight here". Hell even when the war council concludes he wants to view the battle as "the king fights beside the GWs to stem the tide of evil". Not "the king buys time until the armies of men can vanquish the Darkspawn".

 

Because if Loghain had had his way, they would've no doubt used Ostagar as the defensive structure it is and not expose their forces to the Darkspawn. Think Helm's Deep. At most, maybe a phalanx formation in the valley with archers in the back to fire into the horde while the majority of the army stays in the fortress and fires into the horde from up high, and defends it should the Tower be breached (as was probably still going to happen. But then Loghain could've directed efforts over there to stop it. The Wardens certainly would've been more valuable)

[TEWR]

Ironically Cailan got exactly what he wanted in the end. History remembers him as a "brave, valiant, charismatic king who fought heroically against the Darkspawn and was betrayed for it"

 

BAH.

[Willowhugger]

There was no way to win at Ostagar because a Blight is an unlimited wave of evil.

 

Only by killing the Archdemon can they be defeated.

[TEWR]

yeah tbh even had they decided to wait the Darkspawn wouldn't have picked up on that memo and would've still attacked.

 

But if they hadn't been down in the valley  they might've been able to repel the attack well enough to cause the Darkspawn to retreat. Whether it would've been a Pyrrhic victory or not is anyone's guess. If it had though, perhaps there might've been greater pressure put on the Chantry to allow the Circle to join the fight in its entirety, along with entreaties made to the Dwarves of Orzammar.

[Natureguy85]

Because if Loghain had had his way, they would've no doubt used Ostagar as the defensive structure it is and not expose their forces to the Darkspawn. Think Helm's Deep. At most, maybe a phalanx formation in the valley with archers in the back to fire into the horde while the majority of the army stays in the fortress and fires into the horde from up high.

 

Yeah, this always bothered me but I was never sure if it was supposed to tell us something about the characters or if it was just a poorly thought out cutscene. Not only are they out exposed, but they send the Mabari in alone as a wave for them to take out a few darkspawn and be slaughtered rather than having them fight along all their other melee units as a combined force. 

[TEWR]

Yeah, this always bothered me but I was never sure if it was supposed to tell us something about the characters or if it was just a poorly thought out cutscene. Not only are they out exposed, but they send the Mabari in alone as a wave for them to take out a few darkspawn and be slaughtered rather than having them fight along all their other melee units as a combined force. 

 

Exactly as I've always argued. And the archers fire only ONE volley into the horde, rather then as many as they can get away with (even then, being so poorly exposed takes the strategic value of such a thing down a bit, but still.... it'd be better then just ONE VOLLEY

 

Cailan's bravado ruined the plan. Mabari are excellent against cavalry. Against Darkspawn? Better used as support troops.

[Seraphim24]

Ostagar always seemed like an overwhelmingly potent defensive fortress, not only did it feature a bottleneck but it had extremely high fortifications on both sides of the gap, anyone invading would have had an overwhelming challenge in front of them.

 

it seemed like if they had everyone together in the beginning of Dragon Age, they would of successfully defended it.

[Catilina]

How you can sympathize with Loghain? "This" is his ally:

 

"The Maker spit on you! I... deserved... more…!"

[TEWR]

 

How you can sympathize with Loghain? "This" is his ally:

 

"The Maker spit on you! I... deserved... more…!"

 

 

Easily. At this time, Howe has illegally assumed control of both Denerim and Highever -- the former during the riots which occurred during/post Ostagar, the latter as we saw in the HNO -- and now controls the majority of the Coastlands. This gives him a significant military power that would pose a threat and launch a third front for Loghain to fight on should he be antagonized, but also there's the matter of the supplies which Loghain's army will need (food, clothes, tools, weapons, trade routes, etc) and Loghain needs these opened.

 

Loghain thought he could control Howe. Loghain was often out in the field however, leading his troops and only returning to Denerim where it mattered (you hear of how Loghain's been out in the field, as I recall), and Howe took this time to engage in more morally repugnant acts. Loghain didn't approve of them, but he still needed Howe on his side. He couldn't just imprison him -- Howe's allies and son Thomas would take up the banner to free him, possibly goading Nate to come back as well. Delilah however would be away from the shitstorm -- and he couldn't just kill him either (because there wouldn't be grounds to do so)

[Catilina]

Loghain thought he could control Howe.

Ok, then Loghain a fool. And still paranoid. And destroyed the wardens. Loghain inadequate to rule. (And then the betrayal is not mentioned.Let's be benign! Suppose that he only saved his soldiers...) I dont  know one country, which prosper during the reign of a paranoid king.

 

Anders was a terrorist in the DA2? Then Loghain was a terrorist with political power... so much dangerous!

[DebatableBubble]

In that case, damn near every monarch in history could be considered a terrorist.

[Catilina]

In that case, damn near every monarch in history could be considered a terrorist.

I talked about Loghain's methods, not his title or Ferelden's form of governmet... Not only the monarchs, but also other powerful politicians use terrorist methods. A paranoid man with political power in his hand, much dangerous. Loghain shows a paranoid symptoms.

[ModernAcademic]

I love his dialogs with Leliana. 

[Illegitimus]

Exactly as I've always argued. And the archers fire only ONE volley into the horde, rather then as many as they can get away with (even then, being so poorly exposed takes the strategic value of such a thing down a bit, but still.... it'd be better then just ONE VOLLEY

 

Cailan's bravado ruined the plan. Mabari are excellent against cavalry. Against Darkspawn? Better used as support troops.

 

You DO know that no matter how many volleys the army fires, they're only going to waste cut scene time on showing one, right?  Have you never watched a movie about war?  They never show as much archery/artillery fire as there actually was, because that would be boring.  Nor is there any indication that Cailan changed anything about the order of battle save for placing himself in the Warden formation.  

[Natureguy85]

You DO know that no matter how many volleys the army fires, they're only going to waste cut scene time on showing one, right?  Have you never watched a movie about war?  They never show as much archery/artillery fire as there actually was, because that would be boring.  Nor is there any indication that Cailan changed anything about the order of battle save for placing himself in the Warden formation.  

 

Yeah, but since they charge the Darkspawn, they give the archers a smaller window between the melee and the treeline.

[Illegitimus]

Yeah, but since they charge the Darkspawn, they give the archers a smaller window between the melee and the treeline.

 

Given the number of emissaries the Darkspawn have, that's not such a bad idea.  You can't just stand there and wait for them to drop blizzards and firestorms on your front line. 

[DebatableBubble]

Didn't ya know? Everyone's a battle strategist on here.

[Natureguy85]

Given the number of emissaries the Darkspawn have, that's not such a bad idea.  You can't just stand there and wait for them to drop blizzards and firestorms on your front line. 

 

Well I allow for some gameplay/story segregation there. Not only do we not see emissaries doing that but the Ferelden's have their own, likely more powerful mages and the darkspawn are charging their position.