230 réponses à ce sujet

[Illegitimus]

Well I allow for some gameplay/story segregation there. Not only do we not see emissaries doing that but the Ferelden's have their own, likely more powerful mages and the darkspawn are charging their position.

 

We DO see emissaries blasting the archers on the fortress with powerful explosions that would do a number on a troop formation.  Thing is, this isn't a situation where you've got ranged weapons and the bad guys don't.  The darkspawn have archers and emissaries enough that there's no great missile advantage for the humans.  

[Natureguy85]

We DO see emissaries blasting the archers on the fortress with powerful explosions that would do a number on a troop formation.  Thing is, this isn't a situation where you've got ranged weapons and the bad guys don't.  The darkspawn have archers and emissaries enough that there's no great missile advantage for the humans.  

 

Oh, was that magic? I don't remember but I thought that was artillery (which we don't see either so you could go either way.)

 

You're right that the Darkspawn also have ranged weapons, but the Humans have a fortified position and they leave it. Hey, just like the Trade Federation idiots in Episode 1...

[Dabrikishaw]

I don't hold Ostagar against Loghain, but not because I think he was right. On that same token, I don't hold Ostagar against Cailan either.

 

The Ostagar portion of the prologue went through a lot of rewrites during developing, with several different ideas on why the Darkspawn won or who helped them win. After thinking about it and discussing Ostagar for years, I'm come to the conclusion that nothing there is worth using to defend or condemn Loghain's character. It's far too much the result of conflicting and abandoned ideas for the plot of Origins to be of any real use in a debate to me.

[Catilina]

Loghain made much more bad things, than the betrayal of Ostagar. The Ostagar just was one bad thing, and It explained by that Loghain just protected his soldiers' life. The others may not be so easy to explain. I think.

 

Take for example the deal with the Tevinter slave traders. The elimination of Grey Wardens. And the other "good" cases that turn up at the Landsmeet.

 

Everything can be forgiven, but sympathize with someone who perpetrate them? At least difficult…

[Ghost Gal]

Despite all of Ostagar's rewrites, I still think it was pretty clear that Loghain's betrayal was pre-meditated. (Closed the Tower of Ishal to "secure" the tower, only for darkspawn to flood it in less than two seconds after the battle. Created a battle strategy that conveniently relied on the Tower of Ishal to let his men know when to charge. The guard hints that Loghain and Cailan had been fighting for days about the queen, and the devs confirm that Cailan was planning on dumping Anora for Celene and Loghain knew about it--yes, he claims he didn't know at Return to Ostagar; no, he was lying through his teeth. Loghain insists on posting his own men at the Tower of Ishal, but then reluctantly agrees to have the Wardens light the beackon instead. Then says ominously and sarcastically, "Yes Cailan, a glorious moment for us all." Oh, COME ON! How is all of that NOT evidence that his betrayal was pre-meditated?? Re-writes or not, they shouldn't have left all that stuff in if they changed their minds about Loghain's intentions.)

 

HOWEVER, even brushing Ostagar aside, I hold everything he did from the moment he withdrew against him. Oh sure, pull out all forces from the south and summon all banns and arls and their armies to the north and leave the unarmed peasants completely exposed to the bulk of the horde marching their way. I'm sure the darkspawn will stand around waiting patiently for your armies to come back to stop them. Oh sure, declare yourself regent right after leaving your king to die, I'm sure no one will see it as a blatant power-grab. Oh sure, choose to engage in a civil war to force the nobles in line instead of stepping down as regent to avoid the civil war (and instead of letting your daughter, whom you CLAIM is the one actually in charge, take care of the nobles) or focusing on the giant horde pouring into the flatlands so they'll follow suit. Oh sure, divide your forces by posting patrols on the Orlesian border to the west instead of directing them all to the south where the actual army of actual monsters is flooding in. Oh sure, choose to stretch your forces too thin by engaging with the darkspawn and the civil war and the Orlesian border all at once, without any help, and disregard both Anora's and Howe's warnings that "we're stretched too thin" and "we need help, father!" because you're too stubborn and proud to admit you can't do it all yourself. I'm sure that won't end poorly. Oh sure, waste what limited resources you have hiring expensive assassins to kill the surviving Grey Wardens, and further kill your credibility with a smear campaign against Grey Wardens that no one else believes. That's money and effort well-spent. Oh sure, brush your daughter Anora (whom the nobles love) aside and leave Howe (whom the nobles despise) in charge of politics. That won't backfire!

 

At best, I think Loghain is rock-stupid. At worst, I think he's full of ****. 

[Seraphim24]

In many ways, Loghain was like Alistair actually... like.. both were equally hateful towards establishment and overlordships, whether it was the Chantry or the Fereldan order which Loghain perpetually felt was going to be devoured by Orlais (whether a realistic thought or not). Both had experiences shaped by kind of unusual circumstances, Loghain during Orlesian occupation, Alistair being raised far away from politics or whatever but then suddenly being thrust into being king.

 

In the final state of affairs, Loghain was thrust into a role he hated as well,  the great king, unifier. I feel like Loghain was just Alistair if Alistair had been forced to be king the entire time, and all the consequences of that.

 

I think what Alistair wanted was the same thing that Loghain wanted, to be free of the kind of "games" and focus on something like pure tactics or military strategy. Loghain felt a great deal of skill as a commander, where the questions were narrowed (attack the assaulting enemies) but then when it came to politics he prioritized what he thought was the only way to preserve certain things was to follow his sometimes off-beat wild strategies.

 

There is no reason to think Alistair would have been different, their circumstances were simply different.

 

If you think about it, that's why the ultimate acts often come down to the player, they're kind of looking for a resolution.

[Seraphim24]

Like imagine someone with a fairly "strict" kind of mindset, that is devoted to not having that spill over into the "bad things" (end up with shirt missing the next morning like Alistair's quip about those lines), and then suddenly burdened with like defending Fereldan and all this, it could possibly not go right. At no point, does Loghain ever seem to "intend" to fundamentally just kind of mess up things as much as possible, but because he kind of I guess gets in over his head so badly in so many ways it almost appears that way.

[Aren]

I don't care about his crimes post Ostagar so long as i can use him as my tool to kill the archdemon(i was a warden afterall archdemon was my concern not justice)

His character find his usefulness,it's like if the game gave me the perfect tool to redeem without me feeling bad for  him.

[Natureguy85]

In many ways, Loghain was like Alistair actually... like.. both were equally hateful towards establishment and overlordships, whether it was the Chantry or the Fereldan order which Loghain perpetually felt was going to be devoured by Orlais (whether a realistic thought or not). Both had experiences shaped by kind of unusual circumstances, Loghain during Orlesian occupation, Alistair being raised far away from politics or whatever but then suddenly being thrust into being king.

 

In the final state of affairs, Loghain was thrust into a role he hated as well,  the great king, unifier. I feel like Loghain was just Alistair if Alistair had been forced to be king the entire time, and all the consequences of that.

 

I think what Alistair wanted was the same thing that Loghain wanted, to be free of the kind of "games" and focus on something like pure tactics or military strategy. Loghain felt a great deal of skill as a commander, where the questions were narrowed (attack the assaulting enemies) but then when it came to politics he prioritized what he thought was the only way to preserve certain things was to follow his sometimes off-beat wild strategies.

 

There is no reason to think Alistair would have been different, their circumstances were simply different.

 

If you think about it, that's why the ultimate acts often come down to the player, they're kind of looking for a resolution.

 

I don't know how accurate it is to the presented character, but I like the idea you seem to suggest of Loghain as a military man who doesn't know what to do now that the fighting is over. Not that he goes looking for new wars, but that hes in over his head in any other situation.

[Seraphim24]

I don't know how accurate it is to the presented character, but I like the idea you seem to suggest of Loghain as a military man who doesn't know what to do now that the fighting is over. Not that he goes looking for new wars, but that hes in over his head in any other situation.

 

Yeah he is certainly someone more comfortable behind a regiment, issuing commands to take a valley, then as some kind of King-Regent deciding matters of grand strategy or policy it seems very fair to say.

 

In some ways, that's kind of a lot like Alistair, who prefers the role of wise-cracking kind of along for the ride role as opposed to once again the King-regent.

 

Anora was of course designed to fill that "role" but frankly she seems almost as frigid and skittish about it all as Alistair or Loghain in many ways.

 

I think that's why ultimately redemption became the most appealing as well as Alistair/Anora joint rule, kind of have a mix of different opinions in one pot.

 

The only character in Dragon Age who seems modestly engaged by the greater role is Bann Teagan perhaps.

[Natureguy85]

Yeah he is certainly someone more comfortable behind a regiment, issuing commands to take a valley, then as some kind of King-Regent deciding matters of grand strategy or policy it seems very fair to say.

 

In some ways, that's kind of a lot like Alistair, who prefers the role of wise-cracking kind of along for the ride role as opposed to once again the King-regent.

 

Anora was of course designed to fill that "role" but frankly she seems almost as frigid and skittish about it all as Alistair or Loghain in many ways.

 

I think that's why ultimately redemption became the most appealing as well as Alistair/Anora joint rule, kind of have a mix of different opinions in one pot.

 

The only character in Dragon Age who seems modestly engaged by the greater role is Bann Teagan perhaps.

 

I disagree on Anora. She very much wanted the political power. In fact, her seemingly power hungry nature is why I'm uncomfortable supporting her as queen if I am playing from my own mindset. We are not given any reason to believe that she will be a great ruler as she says she will other than seeing Cailan as immature for the role. The fact that she won't stand on principle, but helps you if you support her and speaks against you if you don't, is damning. Which is why my "main" warden lies to her about supporting her

[Fylimar]

About Anora: I'm quite ok with Anora being queen, I personally think, she is better suited. She is ambitious and intelligent - two things, Alistair lacks a bit (Idon't mean, he is dumb, this isn't Ali-bashing, I mean he lacks some kind of streetwise knowledge and practicality, if you know what I mean). On the other hand, she isn't as ruthless and single minded as her father.

Anora and Alistair as queen and king i ok too, but I don't feel comfortable with Alistair being king alone. I played all variations through (apart from hn with Ali or Anora) and I like Anora being invovled the most.

And as for Anora speaking against you: I don't hold that against her. She is afraid of course, that she might be punished for the actions of her father too (and in her case, that fear is a bit more realistic than Loghains fear about Orlais) and on the other hand, Alistair leaves you to fight the archdemon alone, if you let Loghain live. I can either hate both of them for betraying me or I let it go. And I have much more reason to hate Alistair for that, since he is a friend. Anora I barely know and let's be honest: she don't get saved, because we like her so much, but because we want to use her and she knows that. And to be clear: I hate none of them, I kind of understand Ali in that moment and I understand Anora (and besides, Loghain is a piece of sh***, but he is her father and she seems to really love him)

 

So while I can't think of anything that would redeem or excuse Loghain, I have really no problem with Anora trying to come through a difficult situation. Loghain did kill, sell people into slavery betrayed people and does commit other crimes, Anora only receed her vote, she acts within normal social parameters imo and has the right to do so

 

Guinevre134: You comparison between Alistair and Loghain is interesting. I'm not sure if I agree, that Alistair would have done the same in Loghains shoes, but I do see the similarities in their upbringing. It' s a bit like with Harry Potter and Voldemort ... sorry... He who must not be named ... - they both share a similar background but becoming totally different people. 

[Natureguy85]

About Anora: I'm quite ok with Anora being queen, I personally think, she is better suited. She is ambitious and intelligent - two things, Alistair lacks a bit (Idon't mean, he is dumb, this isn't Ali-bashing, I mean he lacks some kind of streetwise knowledge and practicality, if you know what I mean). On the other hand, she isn't as ruthless and single minded as her father.

Anora and Alistair as queen and king i ok too, but I don't feel comfortable with Alistair being king alone. I played all variations through (apart from hn with Ali or Anora) and I like Anora being invovled the most.

And as for Anora speaking against you: I don't hold that against her. She is afraid of course, that she might be punished for the actions of her father too (and in her case, that fear is a bit more realistic than Loghains fear about Orlais) and on the other hand, Alistair leaves you to fight the archdemon alone, if you let Loghain live. I can either hate both of them for betraying me or I let it go. And I have much more reason to hate Alistair for that, since he is a friend. Anora I barely know and let's be honest: she don't get saved, because we like her so much, but because we want to use her and she knows that. And to be clear: I hate none of them, I kind of understand Ali in that moment and I understand Anora (and besides, Loghain is a piece of sh***, but he is her father and she seems to really love him)

 

So while I can't think of anything that would redeem or excuse Loghain, I have really no problem with Anora trying to come through a difficult situation. Loghain did kill, sell people into slavery betrayed people and does commit other crimes, Anora only receed her vote, she acts within normal social parameters imo and has the right to do so

 

Guinevre134: You comparison between Alistair and Loghain is interesting. I'm not sure if I agree, that Alistair would have done the same in Loghains shoes, but I do see the similarities in their upbringing. It' s a bit like with Harry Potter and Voldemort ... sorry... He who must not be named ... - they both share a similar background but becoming totally different people. 

 

You're right about Alistair, or at least a non-hardened one, but he also knows his own failings and you could argue that he'd listen to advisers, such as the Warden if that option is chosen. You're also right about Anora and it's that ambition that worries me. You're imposing motivations for her vote onto her. She is making a political play. If the Warden will back her for Queen, she backs the Warden. If not, she backs her father because he will let her be Queen. It's that simple.

[Seraphim24]

I disagree on Anora. She very much wanted the political power. In fact, her seemingly power hungry nature is why I'm uncomfortable supporting her as queen if I am playing from my own mindset. We are not given any reason to believe that she will be a great ruler as she says she will other than seeing Cailan as immature for the role. The fact that she won't stand on principle, but helps you if you support her and speaks against you if you don't, is damning. Which is why my "main" warden lies to her about supporting her

 

Well it sounds like we see the same with Anora. She was obsessively controlling and that's not really a "power" thing in many ways that's just an obsessively controlling thing. Actually, it's arguably a powerless thing.

 

Yeah she seems just as interested in following the brightest thing around then simply getting electricity.

[Seraphim24]

Guinevre134: You comparison between Alistair and Loghain is interesting. I'm not sure if I agree, that Alistair would have done the same in Loghains shoes, but I do see the similarities in their upbringing. It' s a bit like with Harry Potter and Voldemort ... sorry... He who must not be named ... - they both share a similar background but becoming totally different people. 

 

Well it's also possible that Alistair would have done even worse somehow. Basically, people that are obssessed with getting away from positions of power often do so for a reason, it's one of the reasons that I don't really hold it against Alistair for ditching the Grey Wardens/Fereldan everything if get that scenario in DA:O.

 

The problem comes as much from failing to respect those desires as it does lack of leadership or whatever.

[Qun00]

I disagree on Anora. She very much wanted the political power. In fact, her seemingly power hungry nature is why I'm uncomfortable supporting her as queen if I am playing from my own mindset. We are not given any reason to believe that she will be a great ruler as she says she will other than seeing Cailan as immature for the role. The fact that she won't stand on principle, but helps you if you support her and speaks against you if you don't, is damning. Which is why my "main" warden lies to her about supporting her

Neither Anora or Alistair are ideal candidates. You have to choose the lesser of the two evils: Greedy and cold hearted but capable VS Unwilling and incompetent but morally good.

[Qun00]

I disagree on Anora. She very much wanted the political power. In fact, her seemingly power hungry nature is why I'm uncomfortable supporting her as queen if I am playing from my own mindset. We are not given any reason to believe that she will be a great ruler as she says she will other than seeing Cailan as immature for the role. The fact that she won't stand on principle, but helps you if you support her and speaks against you if you don't, is damning. Which is why my "main" warden lies to her about supporting her

Neither Anora or Alistair are ideal candidates. You have to choose the lesser of the two evils: Greedy and cold hearted but capable VS Unwilling and incompetent but morally good.

[Natureguy85]

Neither Anora or Alistair are ideal candidates. You have to choose the lesser of the two evils: Greedy and cold hearted but capable VS Unwilling and incompetent but morally good.

 

The problem is that there is nothing to sell me on the "capable" part.

[sylvanaerie]

The problem is that there is nothing to sell me on the "capable" part.

 

Aside from the elves in the Alienage (which is not something Anora was the cause of), she's done a good job before the Blight for the past 5 years.  Ferelden as the game begins seems to have been enjoying prosperity which has little to do with Cailan's leadership.  Anora is popular among the nobility because they know it's to her they looked to for leadership.  Loghain's behavior during the Blight threw the country into it's tailspin.  Anora's mistake was thinking like his daughter and not the queen when he took over.  Once he's removed from the equation, I doubt there would be the same dynamic between him and his daughter to disrupt things.

 

And sometimes it takes ruthless and cold to get sh*t done.  Had Loghain turned his attention to the real problems instead of the ones he created for himself, things would have gone a lot differently after Ostagar, and I would have been less p*ssed with him.

 

And she proves quite progressive if left in charge of the nation following the Blight, increasing trade and furthering education, dragging Ferelden into the future rather than miring it in the past traditionalists like Eamon would have it stagnate into.

 

Her address to the troops, though, makes me want to gouge my eardrums with an icepick to drown out the sound.   

[Natureguy85]

Aside from the elves in the Alienage (which is not something Anora was the cause of), she's done a good job before the Blight for the past 5 years.  Ferelden as the game begins seems to have been enjoying prosperity which has little to do with Cailan's leadership.  Anora is popular among the nobility because they know it's to her they looked to for leadership.

 

Is there anything to support that other than Anora herself claiming it? It's possible I don't remember it. I just remember her standing behind Loghain like a wall flower in front of the Bannorn. She gives a weak defense of Loghain to Teagan and he silences her with his question back to her.

[sylvanaerie]

Is there anything to support that other than Anora herself claiming it? It's possible I don't remember it. I just remember her standing behind Loghain like a wall flower in front of the Bannorn. She gives a weak defense of Loghain to Teagan and he silences her with his question back to her.

 

The fact that it takes a large percentage of votes to win without her support should be a clue, but speaking to the nobles in the Gnawed Noble tavern prior to going to the Alienage, everyone there is in support of Anora (and will vote her way unless you complete the quests that turn them to your side).  It's Anora who's been running the country and for stability, it's best if she remains in charge.  Either solo or married to Alistair, that's all how you want to place your pieces on the board.

 

Now, elf fans will argue that she hardly did diddly for the elves in the Alienage but that situation was not of Anora's making.  It's been around for centuries and while, yes, she may could have done some things to improve it, she can't act without Bannorn approval of sweeping large changes.  Case in point, the trouble Alistair has when he is king and trying to make improvements in their lives.  Even the food riots afterward can be understood in that the same thing happens in Amaranthine in Awakenings.  It's hardly an isolated incident that after war comes famine and disease.   They all go hand in hand.

 

Overall, I believe the improvements she enacts by making Ferelden more progressive and less a backward barbaric country do far more in the long run than any negatives placing her on the throne may cause.

 

And as both her and Alistair deal with the Blight with exactly the same competence (once Loghain is removed from the picture), it has no impact on gameplay at all.

 

The situation is akin to choosing between Harrowmont and Bhelen.  One is a traditionalist mired in the past and mostly a moral guy.  The other is a douchenozzle, but progressive and does more good than ill to his people.

[Natureguy85]

The fact that it takes a large percentage of votes to win without her support should be a clue, but speaking to the nobles in the Gnawed Noble tavern prior to going to the Alienage, everyone there is in support of Anora (and will vote her way unless you complete the quests that turn them to your side).  It's Anora who's been running the country and for stability, it's best if she remains in charge.  Either solo or married to Alistair, that's all how you want to place your pieces on the board.

 

Yeah? I don't remember that. I wouldn't have thought she'd come up much, as she is hidden behind Loghain. At the vote, they vote to side with Loghain, not Anora.

 

 

 

Overall, I believe the improvements she enacts by making Ferelden more progressive and less a backward barbaric country do far more in the long run than any negatives placing her on the throne may cause.

 

And as both her and Alistair deal with the Blight with exactly the same competence (once Loghain is removed from the picture), it has no impact on gameplay at all.

 

True, but these are both arguments after the fact. I'm thinking about what we know at the time the choice is made.

[Mlady]

Eh... without any meta-gaming, I always liked Loghain. Reminds me a lot of other bad guys turned good in many RPG's I grew up playing. His storyline in DAI ended in a very good way for me. Then again, I always like the villains in anything I watch, read or play. Though I never really saw him as a villain, just someone who kept getting in the way of the real villain.

[sylvanaerie]

Yeah? I don't remember that. I wouldn't have thought she'd come up much, as she is hidden behind Loghain. At the vote, they vote to side with Loghain, not Anora.

 

 

 

 

True, but these are both arguments after the fact. I'm thinking about what we know at the time the choice is made.

 

Well, a better question would be "Why Alistair?" beyond just he's Maric's son, he doesn't want it, was never trained for it, Anora does and has been.  Anyone with half a brain can see Eamon's jockeying for the "power behind the throne" position.  He's practically stumbling all over himself with eagerness when named Regent.  Alistair is ill suited for the task unless he's been hardened.  Leaving Anora on the throne also ensures stability after the Blight (something a warden can reason without metagaming) since there will be no change of leadership.  Of course, you can always hitch Alistair up to Anora, joining the Theirin bloodline to the Mac Tir and they both do well together if he's hardened.  But I'd rather stick rusty pins in my eyes than watch that coronation scene.

 

And Anora is just standing there, not 'hiding' behind Loghain during the first Landsmeet.  A scene the warden isn't even privy to since he's down south in the Korcari Wilds, that's metagaming.  Since Loghain is acting as her regent backing Loghain is backing Anora.  

 

My canon world state has solo hardened King Alistair with a Mistress Surana chancellor, but usually I left Anora on the throne. She wanted it, he didn't and I could stick it to Eamon by not doing what he wants.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 Ostagar, none of us can really say what the situation was.

 

Word of God (Gaider) is that Loghain would have stayed the field if he thought the battle were winnable, though.

 

As for what he did after assuming the role of Regent? In the context of the situation at hand, everything was justifiable. And the Warden is hardly in position to judge. Loghain had the Blight to worry about like he/she did, and then also the war, and politics.